PDA

View Full Version : Formation Flying



GazzaMataz
07-22-2004, 02:23 AM
This probably drives me crackers more than take-offs landings, gunnery and evasive manouevers (don't take much eh?).

I find that when I take off and eventually join my formation (yes, it still seems a core to catch 'em) I find it really difficult to keep in formation. One minute you think your there, then you overshoot and you haven't touched your throttle then you too low, too high and left behind and your the one flying straight and narrow.

In real life flying I would imagine that you would be communicating with you C/O who would tell you to slow up, speed up, climb, dive, break etc. Obviously you cannot talk to AIs. Is it just a case of doing the best you can or am I missing something and just **** at formation flying?

Answers on postcard...

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

GazzaMataz
07-22-2004, 02:23 AM
This probably drives me crackers more than take-offs landings, gunnery and evasive manouevers (don't take much eh?).

I find that when I take off and eventually join my formation (yes, it still seems a core to catch 'em) I find it really difficult to keep in formation. One minute you think your there, then you overshoot and you haven't touched your throttle then you too low, too high and left behind and your the one flying straight and narrow.

In real life flying I would imagine that you would be communicating with you C/O who would tell you to slow up, speed up, climb, dive, break etc. Obviously you cannot talk to AIs. Is it just a case of doing the best you can or am I missing something and just **** at formation flying?

Answers on postcard...

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

Monson74
07-22-2004, 02:33 AM
You just gotta go easy on that throttle - do small corrections & if you're about to overshoot do a barrel roll to get in place - then you won't lose all your speed.

S!

Monson


"The Zerst├┬Ârers will form an offensive circle." - G├┬Âring

WUAF_Badsight
07-22-2004, 02:37 AM
pratice

there is no other way

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BennyMoore
07-22-2004, 02:40 AM
Well, I've tried it repeatedly with a friend online, talking over Ventrillo.

It's hard. Really hard!

The only airplane that I've had any sort of success with is the P-38 Lighning, because it has less torque than most other aircraft (grrr, should have none, dumb code).

My only suggestions are that you both use rudder to coordinate your flight, and that he fly at less than maximum power at all times. Also, avoid using rudder to adjust your position; for some reason, this seems to make the wobbles all the more pronounced.

I think that all it takes is practice. I feel like I'm a good pilot (while not a great one), but the things that I practice are gunnery, maneuvers, tactics (which I generally stink at due to my stupid habit of attacking every enemy plane I see no matter what the circumstances), and landings. I've spent thousands of hours doing these, and that is why I've come to the point where I can call myself a good pilot without fear of boasting. However, I've practiced formation flying for a maximum of two hours - probably less. Therefore, I can only conclude that it is not too hard to fly in formation in the game, and that rather my skill is at fault. In fact, it was probably even harder in real life, seeing as how rudder coordination in this game is almost certainly not as necessary in the game as it was in real life.

But, see, real life pilots would have the tables turned. We simulator pilots spend thousands of hours in combat and a few flying in formation, while real pilots spent thousands of hours flying in formation and only a few in combat (generally speaking).

Therefore, it is only logical that the average aerial combat simulator pilot is good at combat and bad at formation flying, while the average real pilot was good at formation flying and bad at combat.

LittleMadZ
07-22-2004, 03:49 AM
Hi Gaz, i and some friends are trying to build up an acrobatic team (crazy69, www.69squadrone.it (http://www.69squadrone.it)) and i can tell you that it's really hard. The leader of course give us everytihg about times, speed and throttle but it's still a mess!!! the only important thing to do in my mind is spend a lot of time flying together; nothing else

bye

Madz

Zayets
07-22-2004, 04:11 AM
Trimming your plane is also essential.I have no problem to stay for long at about .15 from the wing leader even if he's changing direction without annoucement.The only problem is that if you want to fly in tight formation you concentrate a lot on this issue and you forget to scan the air for incoming threats.Thus,I preffer to stay somewhere between 0.5-1.0 and also do my job in regard with sky guarding.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

GazzaMataz
07-22-2004, 05:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Therefore, I can only conclude that it is not too hard to fly in formation in the game, and that rather my skill is at fault.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only problem is that if you want to fly in tight formation you concentrate a lot on this issue and you forget to scan the air for incoming threats.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was something that was mention in the 'Spitfire Pilot' series on Channel4 in Feb this year. It seemed the British pilots were preoccupied with flying formation whilst the Germans adopted the swarm concept which was much looser and a better tactic.

Tickety boo...
Gazzamataz
http://www.gazzamataz.com

Farkitt_
07-22-2004, 05:16 AM
you have to just practice. I can formate on People and it doesn't require constant communication.

And they don't do that in RL either.

All you need is to get a ballpark speed and hover around it. Your throttle will NOT stay still while formating, even if your leaders does. just small corrections.

A small tip though. Set up a QM with just you and another plane in the 2nd Flight. and try formating on him. Start with a bomber, as they are easier, They just fly back to base so you get to practice gentle turns too.

Set it up so the your leader is in a "Section" on your Canopy, then you only have to worry about keeping him in it. and your distance from him.

Keep at it, its really rewarding once ya get the hang of it.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

lindyman
07-22-2004, 05:39 AM
Another tip for first practices is to use a stubby plane with lots of drag. Their advantage, compared to the super streamlined late war fighters, is that it's easy to reduce speed in them.
_
/Bjorn.

steiner562
07-22-2004, 06:11 AM
As zayets said trim the bugger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray01sm.jpg

Breeze147
07-22-2004, 06:24 AM
You have to constantly work the throttle. I try to stay about .5 to 1.0 from my wingie. In the Sturmo, on my setup, I'm constantly working the throttle between 60% and 57%. Very small corrections with stick and rudder. Keep an eye on your map. If you see a change of course coming, drop back a little. The AI is known to crash into each other, especially around the airfield (Is this a bug?). When the leader calls out enemy fighters, get out of the way. I try to stay out of the furballs and try to get a lead on enemies trying to escape. When attacking the target, I'll try to stay in formation for the first pass. After that, it's every man for himself. I'll go for a target of opportunity that doesn't appear to be too heavily defended. If I get hit or run out of ammo, I'm out of there. If all goes well, I'll formation fly home until 2nd to last waypoint and then go for my landing. Too many near misses if I do it the right way and it just isn't fun orbiting the field waiting to land. Strayed from the topic a bit, I think, but that's what I do.

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap16.jpg

MEGILE
07-22-2004, 06:34 AM
Something I'v noticed about the P-38 despite its size, it is an amazing formation plane.. its so stable, and accelerates well.. honestly try it, and you'll see, its much easier to get tight with your wingnut and stay there

http://www.5thairforce.com/e107_files/public/p51lightj.jpg

BSS_CUDA
07-22-2004, 07:34 AM
Formation flying take practice, TONS!! and the more ppl that are in the formation the tougher it is ESPECIALLY online, lagg and different connection speeds will screw things up for all, the Black Sheep always fly tight when we first get airborne and as we get closer to indian country we go to a combat spread. it alows you to scan without worring about how close you are to your wing.
http://img42.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/040327_13.jpg http://img42.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/040327_14.jpg

*****************************
BSS_CUDA
Co-Founder of my family
Black Sheep Executive Officer
USN retired

http://img42.photobucket.com/albums/v129/CUDA97045/CUDA_.jpg
blacksheep214.com (http://blacksheep214.com)
That was some of the best flying I've seen yet! right up to the part where you got killed.
you NEVER NEVER leave your wingman.

Jester : TopGun

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-22-2004, 07:41 AM
YOu want formation flying.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

have a look at the link down in my signature.

the one talkin about VHVT- SOme nice videos and screenies for U-

------------------------------
www.checksix-fr.com (http://www.checksix-fr.com) Il2/FB/AEP co-webmaster
------------------------------------------------------------
Slot 2 pilot of the Virtual Haute Voltige team, and live video director

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm

DONB3397
07-22-2004, 07:49 AM
Yes, practice. But the one trick that helped me was trim. Throttle and combat flaps can keep you on station in maneuvers, but setting up with either bombers or your flight is much easier with stab and rudder trim. Then throttle and stick adjustments.

On good days, I can keep the rest of the formation in sight...sometimes...umm.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v243/DONB3397/SpitSig01b.jpg
"And now I see with eye serene/The very pulse of the machine;
A being breathing thoughtful breath,/A Traveller between life and death." -- Wordsworth

Flyby_99
07-22-2004, 07:57 AM
My two cents:
First, I agree that formation flying takes a lot of practice. I'm not really very good at it. But when I do attempt it, I use the prop pitch to help control my speed: higher pitch to speed up, lower pitch to slow down. The propeller being an airfoil, I've found that decreasing pitch, while holding the same throttle setting seems to slow the plane down, but causes it to climb. so when I reduce pitch I have to dial in a bit of nose down trim.
Dropping pitch is also one method I use in conjunction with reducing the trottle to try to prevent overshoot when I am in pursuit.

Well, a bit more than two cents worth, I guess. Keep the change! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Flyby out

my gun convergence is set to harmonize on your @ss, so hold very still. this won't hurt long!

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-22-2004, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GazzaMataz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only problem is that if you want to fly in tight formation you concentrate a lot on this issue and you forget to scan the air for incoming threats.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This was something that was mention in the 'Spitfire Pilot' series on Channel4 in Feb this year. It seemed the British pilots were preoccupied with flying formation whilst the Germans adopted the swarm concept which was much looser and a better tactic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In his Autobiography "Malta Spitfire", George Beurling said one of the captured Italian pilots spoke proudly of their "formation flying skills". He said he told the "Eytie" that this was part of their problem as they were concentrating so hard on maintaining tight formation they were unable to scan the sky for Bandits

http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

JJaguar
07-22-2004, 03:11 PM
I fly in formation all the time, it's pretty easy to maintain a serviceable combat formation at even x2 time acceleration with a little practice. I try to stay generally in the .25 to .5 range. Any closer is dangerous because the AI tends to do crazy, unpredictable things. Farther and you are in danger of getting dropped when the formation breaks for the enemy (although you can offset this disadvantage by keeping watch yourself, you can always see the enemy before your AI wingmates react).

Throttle control is the key to formation flying. One tip is to find the appropriate cruise speed and throttle setting. It's different for different aircraft, you'll have to find it experimentally. For the Russian fighters I usually fly the throttle tends to be in the 35-45% range, for example. Once you figure this out, you need to work the throttle constantly but take it easy. Never move it more than about +/- 5% or so from the cruise setting. Also, I find it helps to set your prop pitch to the economy cruise RPM if applicable. It kind of smoothes out your speed oscillations. And as others have said, you also need to trim your aircraft. That way you're not constantly jerking the stick about trying to maintain straight and level flight.

|CoB|_Spectre
07-22-2004, 03:56 PM
There is a lot of good advice here. I love flying tight formation with a lead aircraft, to see how close I can "tuck in" and maintain a constant distance and position even with changes in direction and flight attitude. One aspect of formation flying that is often overlooked is the importance of having a lead aircraft pilot that knows how to fly smoothly. I have flown with many pilots who are good in dogfights and mudmoving, but cannot maintain a constant airspeed, altitude or flight attitude. They are constantly climbing, descending, slow turning left or right. On first glance most people would surmise the leader of the Blue Angles has the easiest job and everybody else has the hard job of forming up on him and maintaining position. In reality, the leader's job is very demanding and the pressure of flying smoothly while correctly performing the maneuvers is enormous. I dare say most pilots who fly this or most any other flight sims spend very little time developing the skills to flight straight and level. Try it, if you think it's easy. I'm talking about setting power and trim to maintain a "0" on the vertical speed indicator and no change in heading. A complete understanding of how changes in power affect trim, ascent and descent is essential. One of the most consistent pieces of advice posted thusfar has been "practice". This cannot be understated. As one of the Blue Angels said in their video "Threshold", "We're totally concentrated on maintaining position...flying the airplane is something that just happens. Your whole world is a single rivet on the leader's wingtip". That pretty much sums it up. However, you don't need to maintain 3-feet clearance between your plane and the leaders like the Blues do, you're doing good if you can maintain a steady 20 feet or less. I find formation flying to be one of the most challenging and rewarding things to be enjoyed with online flying. Invest the time, you'll be glad you did.

WTE_Galway
07-22-2004, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I try to stay generally in the .25 to .5 range. Any closer is dangerous because the AI tends to do crazy, unpredictable things. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For this reason you should formate slightly below the plane you are forming up on .. not level with it .. this is also true of formation flying in real life

heywooood
07-22-2004, 05:59 PM
The best way I found to practice this was in offline Russian campaign in I-16 Rata... for best visibility and good throttle response.
These are long flights usually - so you get lots of practice both en route to the target area and then back to base... don't be afraid to work the throttle almost as much as the stick.. and make sure your stick settings are good also... you need some twitching room...so you dont want the plane to respond immediately to every slightest movement of the control stick.



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

xTHRUDx
07-22-2004, 11:55 PM
biggest mistake i see is that some flight leaders fly too fast. 70-80% is good to lead with. it gives the other pilots some some catch up room.

pacettid
07-23-2004, 05:14 AM
When I flew for the USN twenty-plus years ago, formation flying was the toughest challenge I can recall. And in real life talking to your formation leader and telling him to do anything like you suggested above just doesn't happen...he leads, you follow and you maintain station and radio silence.

'Key to Victory at Sea'...practice, practice, pratice...keep the formation loose...and a seperate throttle will also help.

All the best, Don

BennyMoore
07-23-2004, 10:42 PM
Would you expound on that please?

Alexander_Seil
07-23-2004, 11:42 PM
I've been having a bit of a problem with constantly overshooting my formation (or alternatively "snaking" around them to avoid that) in an Il-2 1 Series...I didn't even realize that a plane could fly and not fall to the ground at 35% throttle...gonna try that, then (I usually go at 70% when I lead, 50% trying not to overshoot the formation, pitch at 80-85% most of the time). I've been somewhat scared of the sounds the engine starts to make below 50%...sounds like it's about to shut down on you.

BennyMoore
07-24-2004, 12:16 AM
You must remember that on most Allied aircraft, the throttle setting isn't a good indicator of your engine's power. I mean, just because your throttle is at fifty percent does not mean your engine is running at fifty percent. It's because of the pitch thingy, and I don't understand it, and I don't like the system. I don't know why the United States used it! I like the German system a lot better, where fifty percent is fifty percent and that's that.

But with Allied planes, fifty percent throttle could mean that you're aircraft is running at seventy to fifty (I think). Again, I don't understand all of this, but I think that the pitch and the throttle are in some way linked. I believe the way it works is that the engine automatically changes revolvements per minute based on the pitch setting, and the throttle seems to... You know, I'm completely clueless. But here's an experiment for you. Make a landing as if it were a dead stick landing - one where you don't drag yourself at ten feet off of the ground onto the runway under power - from about two hundred meters. Use full pitch and no throttle. As long as you keep up your speed, your engine will seem to not change at all, but as soon as you pull up and use maneuvers to lose speed without playing with the engine, your engine will slowly lower its revolutions.

When I make what I call "combat landings," I cut my engine and make violent turns almost directly above the runway to lower my speed. I should make a track out of it, only I can't host files. I've never seen anyone else do this "combat landing," so I like to delude myself into thinking that it's original to me. I do not ever recommend doing anything of the sort in real life under any circumstances. But, anyway, what I used to do when doing this in Allied planes was lower my pitch to practically cut the engine, but I've recently thought that lowering pitch reduces drag, which is the opposite of what I want. So now I leave the pitch on full and only cut the throttle, and perform those maneuvers and use lots of rudder to slow myself down enough that the engine doesn't work.

I'm aware I'm rambling, which I ordinarily try not to do, but I'm confused about the issue and also having difficulties expressing my methods and impression. Would someone better informed on engines please help us out?

Alexander_Seil
07-24-2004, 12:42 AM
Actually, pitch changes the angle of the blades, as far as I understand it. Due to the oft-mentioned windmilling, if you dive with 100% pitch (smallest angle of attack), the engine is going to gain a whole damn lot of RPMs just from the fact that incoming air is rotating the blades. If it's at 0% (very large angle of blades to incoming air), the engine isn't going to gain many RPMs, which is why they advise you to lower the pitch in dives in those training tracks. If you're going at 50% throttle, windmilling keeps your RPMs high at 100% pitch. Alternatively, by setting throttle to 110% and pitch to 0% you may as well kill the engine, as the engine wouldn't have enough power to keep rotating the blades. Letting the engine just work at 100% pitch makes you susceptible to rapid gains of speed in dives and may not be good at high altitudes (lower density of air), as well as keeps your RPMs higher than the throttle would indicate. I'm still yet to discover the ideal combination of both throttle and pitch to effectively increase/cut speed rapidly, but I'm getting there.

BTW, to answer some of your questions from my n00b knowledge of engine management in FB2 (which comes mostly from a couple of articles on the issue)...I believe that lowering the pitch would greatly increase drag, since the blades attack the air at a higher angle (more of the blade's surface is exposed to incoming air...works like a sail, really), which is also why cutting the throttle to zero/switching off the engine should be usually followed by a decrease in pitch (that's how I do it, anyway).
As for landings...I've personally in my short FB experience did that sort of thing succesfully once (had a very bad angle of approach...can't see those dirt airfields well on my low-end system). Another time I tried landing from a b0rked angle of approach, it got me killed. I would never do that intentionally, to be honest. I usually have flaps and gear down long before I hit the runway and usually just glide the last hundred meters before touchdown or so.

As to your original point...the reason I didn't use, say, a lower pitch and throttle setting is because of the abovementioned weird sound. It sounds just like one of those carburetor engines before they shut down on you in midair, so I avoided lowering throttle and pitch below 50%.

[This message was edited by Alexander_Seil on Fri July 23 2004 at 11:51 PM.]

[This message was edited by Alexander_Seil on Fri July 23 2004 at 11:55 PM.]

TX-EcoDragon
07-24-2004, 04:04 AM
Formation with AI is tough, they don't always "think" straight, and even their flight physics are peculiar under certain circumstances, flight with human pilots is plenty tough too, not all who you form on know how to be a flight lead, they may use too high a power setting or overly abrupt inputs. In any case, your job when forming up is to generate a sight picture, a frame of reference, what formation teams often call a "paint" because they are using a portion of the paint or writing on the aircraft they are forming on as a point to line up a portion of their aircraft with. Given this technique it should be clear that the pilot forming up has to be paying significant attention to this task. . . it never becomes "Easy" in the sense that they can never really reduce the attention that they must pay to the task, instead, even if it becomes a skill that you have mastered you must continually practice to maintain proficiency.

In short, it takes alot of focus, concentration, and practice to get good at it, and lots more to stay good at it. Change positions, or change planes, and you have to relearn much of what you though you had mastered.

In regard to BennyMoore's prop questions, here is an explanation of the different types prop systems, and the merits of each. One thing you should conclude is that the constant speed prop, is in fact a very nice invention for increasing performance, increasing efficiency, and even decreasing pilot workload in particular when maneuvering or doing aerobatics. (at least once the pilot is trained in it's use) It isn't as complicated as it seems, and while there are more ways to get say 65% power, it doesnt mean you have to know all of them (especially in FB where this system doesnt really work like it does in the real world). In simple terms you set power to the specified settings and then use the rpm control/prop control to set an RPM. . . once you have done that, you can pretty much ignore the prop or throttle controls even if you do aerobatics with vertical climbs and dives becasue the prop governor maintains the set rpm so you don't have near the chance to overspeed the engine, because of this the pilot doesnt need to pull power out in dives, just leave it alone. . . in addition, at cruise you can put all the throttle in, while many fixed pitch prop planes require partial power to keep the RPMS in check because the prop is pitched to allow reasonable performance in climbs and in cruise flight. The Adjustable pitch props solve the problems found during cruise, but don't help reduce the workload on the pilot during maneuvering flight because the pilot must change the pitch of the blades anytime he/she changes the pitch of the aircraft.


http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Member-Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

Northern California Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac38.org/

First Slot Pilot Aircraft #4 of the Virtual Haute-Voltige Team
http://www.vhvt.com/

Learn to fly, learn aerobatics, learn to fly a tailwheel at LVK.
http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg

[This message was edited by TX-EcoDragon on Sat July 24 2004 at 03:19 AM.]

Owlsphone
07-24-2004, 07:16 AM
Benny, I perform those so called "combat landings" also. I would have to say I perform them 4 out of 5 landings. I also find it rare to see others landing in such a way...

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Owlsphone/Sig.jpg
Vertically challenged since 1984.

Tachyon1000
07-24-2004, 11:36 AM
One way to get better at formation flying is to practice it exclusively. Build a mission for yourself in the full mission builder that sets you behind an AI leader that follows a straight and level course. I believe you can set the AI's cruise altitude and speed, so those will be known to you, then you merely need to figure out what throttle setting achieves that cruising speed by trial and error. I usually try to fix the plane I am following in a specific position in my cockpit window and do all I can to keep it exactly in that position in my window. Now if I could figure out how to trim out the aircraft that would be great.

Tully__
07-24-2004, 12:13 PM
To help reduce overshoot it helps if you're not in hurry to close on your leader.

If you are in a hurry, do your distance closing at a lower altitude and use a short zoom climb to wash off speed & match altitude at the same time. The required altitude difference will depend on the closing speed.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Sat July 24 2004 at 11:31 AM.]

pacettid
07-24-2004, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
Would you expound on that please?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK...when flying formation in a hi-performance propeller aircraft in the real world maintaining formation requires a tremendous amount of practice to master, total concentration, thinking ahead, and a good grasp of relative motion.

Here are some tips that may help:

- Use the Quick Mission Builder to practice, practice, practice. I do this frequently by selecting no wingmen, and a second friendly flight with 3 planes (select no enemies, as you want to practice formation flying, not team dogfighting...that comes later). This allows me to maintain station on another friendly flight for long periods of time.

- After takeoff, whenever your flight leader executes a turn, use a leading turn to help you close faster on the leader. This is basically the same technique you should be using in an angles dogfight when you are trying to close the distance to a 'bandit' when he is in a turn. If you put your nose in front of his, you basically 'cut the corner' on him and it allows you to close the distance.

- As you approach your designated station on the leader, use the windscreen, canopy rails, and the leaders movement relative to them, to judge just how fast you are closing and adjust throttle early so that you slide into position and don't overshoot. This is using relative motion to maintain station. Droping combat flaps to slow down is also a good technique.

- If you are flying with human flight leaders/wingmen keep the formation loose. Maintianing tight formations is very tedious and reduces your Situational Awareness (SA), as you are too busy maintaining station to properly search for bandits. In this sim, as well as in real life, he who sees the enemy first normally gets the kill, or at least the initial advantage. If you are maintaing station on an AI bird just open it up as much as you can, as AI birds do not manuever like real pilots in formation.

- If your budget allows, I recommend you buy a seperate throttle, so that you can quickly and easily change throttle settings, and you can also put elevator trim on your joystick slider. In real life you hands are always on the trim wheels, I believe it should be no different in a good flight sim.

All the best, Don

Alexander_Seil
07-24-2004, 08:37 PM
The concepts aren't hard. Sure I can try to maintain my leader relatively in the same position on my windshield, but doing it in the game with my sucky skills is a major pain. I've been generally getting better, though. The main problem is again either lagging or overshooting, rather than vertical or horizontal (as in, left-right) separation from the intended point relative to the rest of the formation.

Tully__
07-24-2004, 09:42 PM
Once you get speed roughly matched, throttle changes as small as 1-3% are usually sufficient to keep station, unless a lapse of concentration has considerably widened the gap. Learn to be gentle with the throttle and sensitive to very small changes in relative position.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

BennyMoore
07-25-2004, 01:59 AM
On propeller pitch again - I'm almost positive that lower pitch is lower drag, because a feathered propeller has just about no drag, and that's zero pitch.

So, in the game, why does having the pitch at one hundred and the throttle at zero keep the engine running only as long as you maintain your airspeed? Shouldn't the governor raise the power when you lose your airspeed, instead of lowering it at the time when you need it the most?

How about adjustable pitch propellers? What settings are best for what? I've found that lowering the pitch in dives does not help me keep up my airspeed as some have suggested to me, because any speed I might keep because of the reduced drag is more than lost to me because my engine is not running at maximum power. I've also found that lowering the pitch in cruise flight slows me down, which I don't want.

Tully__
07-25-2004, 03:42 AM
Prop pitch modelling is not as realistic as it might be. Also confusing the issue is the way the game designate prop pitch.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
On propeller pitch again - I'm almost positive that lower pitch is lower drag, because a feathered propeller has just about no drag, and that's zero pitch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In real aircraft, you set your pitch to achieve a certain rpm setting. The 100% setting in the game corresponds to the high rpm setting, not the high pitch angle setting. The low rpm setting ( 0% ) should be low drag, but it is high pitch angle.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, in the game, why does having the pitch at one hundred and the throttle at zero keep the engine running only as long as you maintain your airspeed? Shouldn't the governor raise the power when you lose your airspeed, instead of lowering it at the time when you need it the most?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The governor on constant speed props sets pitch angle to try & maintain rpm but has nothing to do with power setting. Stictly this should be referred to as manifold pressure setting, not power setting. MP is controlled by the throttle. When you reduce MP (which in general reduces power), the prop rpm will start to reduce as the engine is no longer developing enough power to maintain rpm. The governor responds by reducing the pitch angle, causing the propellor to spin more easily and allowing the engine to spin it at the original rpm setting with the reduced power output.

As the prop is now taking smaller "bites" of the air it is not developing as much thrust, even though it's spinning just as fast. The plane will slow down.

If you select zero throttle, the engine is not developing enough power to maintain rpm and the prop will go full fine. If you're on the ground you'll see the prop turning at idle rpm, but while flying you have a "wind" usually in excess of 250km/h pushing the prop around and driving the engine. If you have enough airspeed the prop will turn the engine up to the governed rpm. Once your speed drops off far enough, there is no longer enough air pushing the propellor around to maintain governed rpm and the propellor/engine will begin to spin less quickly.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How about adjustable pitch propellers? What settings are best for what? I've found that lowering the pitch in dives does not help me keep up my airspeed as some have suggested to me, because any speed I might keep because of the reduced drag is more than lost to me because my engine is not running at maximum power. I've also found that lowering the pitch in cruise flight slows me down, which I don't want.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
With variable pitch props, the job that is done by the governor in the constant speed unit must be done by the pilot. The aim is to set the propellor so that the engine spins at peak performance rpm when you want power and at best economy rpm when you're cruising. This will keep you very busy when manouvering vertically, as speed is rapidly changing all the time. The pitch setting for a particular rpm varies with speed, so if you're not all over the pitch lever in combat you're going to find you're either at too low rpm when you need power at low speed or you'll over rev the engine in a dive.

For a more extensive explanation of props, if you haven't already I recommend you read the Those Marvellous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html) article at AvWeb's Pelican's Perch.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

BennyMoore
07-25-2004, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
The 100% setting in the game corresponds to the high rpm setting, not the high pitch angle setting. The low rpm setting ( 0% ) should be low drag, but it is high pitch angle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, in the game, the one hundred percent setting and not the zero percent setting in the game is the closest to feathering?

Thanks for your explaination... This is so confusing. I love aircraft to no end, but I hate engines, in truth. I don't like working on them, I don't like managing them, and I don't like learning about them. They're so hard to understand and very foreign to me.

Alexander_Seil
07-25-2004, 10:31 PM
Actually 0% is closer to feathering...BUT it is anything BUT feathering. Feathering and pitch have nothing to do with each other, when you feather the blades in planes that allow it, you basically eliminate the concept of pitch from your little simulated world (at least, for that engine). Low pitch (meaning, close to 0%) generates a whole lot of drag, which is exactly why you set it low in a dive. As I understand it it also allows you to "bite" more air at higher altitudes, where the density of air is significantly lower...it might also work that way to a very limited degree at low altitudes, but the loss in RPM will offset any potential gain. Also, pitch does not directly control RPMs...throttle, pitch and mixture all influence RPM, it is a product of the combination of all settings plus the outside environment, so saying that this or that setting of pitch corresponds to high or low RPM might not be exactly correct. Same goes for the throttle...at 7000 meters, for example, TB-3 puts out the most RPMs on throttle setting of a mere 10%...any higher and you'll kill your engines.

BennyMoore
07-26-2004, 01:06 AM
Let me get this straight. Feathering is zero pitch, which means that the propeller is parallel to the shaft. The less pitch you have, the closer to feathering, or being parallel to the shaft... The more pitch, the closer the propeller is to being perpendicular to the shaft?

Then why does low pitch have more drag? If it's close to being parallel to the airflow, then there shouldn't be as much drag as far as the aircraft is concerned, although the engine will have to work harder to overcome the drag.

I need diagrams.

Tully__
07-26-2004, 01:26 AM
Benny,

Low game setting (0%) = low rpm setting = high pitch angle

High game setting (100%) = high rpm setting = low pitch angle.

Pitch angle is measure from the propellor's disc of rotation.


There are two different drag factors referred to when talking about props, this is probably the cause of your confusion. Low pitch angles produce low drag in the direction of rotation, allowing the engine to spin the prop fast, but high drag in the direction of flight if you shut power off. High pitch angles produce high drag in the direction of rotation, lowering rpm at lower airspeed, but low drag in the direction of flight with power shut down. When someone mentions drag in connection with the propellor you need to establish whether they are talking about drag on the engine or the propellor contribution to drag in gliding flight. Once you get a good feel for how prop pitch works, you can usually work it out from the context, but it would be nice if more people made the distinction when mentioning it in a discussion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

BennyMoore
07-26-2004, 11:12 PM
I wish that 1C would put in visuals showing the propeller pitch from the cockpit.

WTE_Galway
07-27-2004, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
I wish that 1C would put in visuals showing the propeller pitch from the cockpit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In what sense ?? Planes like the 109's that had pitch guages in real life also actually have them in Il2. Not that the 109 clock thingy is that easy to read .. german engineers are odd people http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

if you mean the prop itself .. I spent quite some time flying a variable pitch 172SP and I certianly couldnt tell you the pitch from looking at the prop itself. basically you just went on the EGT and engine revs.

BennyMoore
07-27-2004, 01:09 AM
I mean with the engine off. It's a bit of an immersion killer when your engine is shot out and you feather your propeller, but as far as you can see it's still as unaerodynamic as ever. It's silly, and a small thing, but I hope to see it in Battle of Britain.

MadMacgunner
07-27-2004, 05:55 AM
I think the problem is the point of view. You see the world as if you were looking through an eyefish.Things in the front seems farther than in the sides, so you canÔ┬┤t estimate correctly the distances.


Vista Suerte y al toro
Garc├┬*a Morato, Spanish civil war pilot