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Martial1
06-09-2004, 12:15 PM
This is a question to real pilots or just those that have a good understanding of real flight.
Has anyone used the nose elevation to set airspeed and the power to determin rate of decent on landings. Is the flight model good enough and the trim settings user friendly enough to allow stable condition after adjustment? I have been flying this game since original IL2 but have always managed landings by chopping the power if too fast and throwing it on the runnway. The nose down position always seems to give an increase in air speed even if you cut power!
What do you guys think?

Regards

The Martial1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Martial1
06-09-2004, 12:15 PM
This is a question to real pilots or just those that have a good understanding of real flight.
Has anyone used the nose elevation to set airspeed and the power to determin rate of decent on landings. Is the flight model good enough and the trim settings user friendly enough to allow stable condition after adjustment? I have been flying this game since original IL2 but have always managed landings by chopping the power if too fast and throwing it on the runnway. The nose down position always seems to give an increase in air speed even if you cut power!
What do you guys think?

Regards

The Martial1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Gato-Loco
06-09-2004, 12:41 PM
I think landing is too easy.

Martial1
06-09-2004, 12:46 PM
I dont want to turn this into a flame fest, just want to know has anyone tried the pitch-power thing and what was the result?

Regards

The Martial1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Mc_Roth
06-09-2004, 12:55 PM
The only complains i saw a pilot make about landing in IL2 was that the planes where bouncing to much after hitting the ground...

Flightvector
06-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Having flown Microsoft FS2004, CFS3, X-Plane..., I would say IL2 is quite a good flight feel (actually the best I've seen) simulator in general. Some pilots try taking the "control airspeed with pitch and descent rate with throttle" super literally and are surprised that the plane falls when they pitch down. It is more of a statement that was designed to change the concepts of pilots into realizing the inter-relationship between pitch and power, and manipulating them for a steady state descent. It forces you to think ahead by reducing throttle before descending to avoid speed increase, and vice versa.

The pitch-power method definitely works in IL2, I land with no elevators using this method, try it and you'll see. Just remember that pitch power is not a new way to fly, you do this unconsciously all the time, but if you start thinking about it, you can be much quicker at it.

What you say about the airplane accelerating on final approach, you are likely to be too steep. A 3 degree approach is standard and you should be able to land at 180 km/h with 25% power all the way. It is true that high performance rectractable aircraft are hard to slow down, and you must start decelerating a few miles out preferably near 1000fpm or less (It is unrealistic to decelerate with 0% power, 20% is the lowest I'd go to prevent carb ice or shock cooling). But the characteristic is no different in a real Mooney or twin engine aircraft.

As for what real pilots say, I am an aeronautical engineering student, but many of my friends are commercial pilots or instructors and fly IL2. One of my friends who is studying for commercial has said that IL2 makes him a better pilot, especially in landings and takeoffs because the aircraft are difficult in stalls. IL2 really is not far off from real aircraft, try X-plane if you need proof (it was certified for IFR and ATP training) http://www.x-plane.com/FTD.html. Now IL2 really doesn't do any justice to how hard it is to ground handle taildraggers, and that may be a limitation that is necessary.

I'll be happy to see a track of your landing and give some pointers.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22ggz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fvsig2.jpg

Martial1
06-09-2004, 01:03 PM
Guys, dont want you all to start getting defensive here. See my experience is this, lower the nose to get correct air speed which results in a descent rate. When you add power, it increases the decent rate due to an increase in speed. Did WW2 aircraft follow the pitch-power thing, guess they did.

JJaguar
06-09-2004, 01:04 PM
Yes you can, it does work. I use the technique mostly for setting up my approach and getting the aircraft into landing configuration. On final I tend to come in at a nose-down attitude just so I can see the runway, but once I'm good and lined up I'll transition to "throttle-pitch" control sometime before I cross the threshold (so I'm basically flying blind until I can see some of the airport to either side of the cockpit) and use throttle to ease myself down onto the runway. It sounds like you're coming in nose-down all the way to the runway.

A slight hijack, but it seems to me that ground effect is not modeled. Has anyone else noticed this?

Cold_Gambler
06-09-2004, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martial1:
I dont want to turn this into a flame fest, just want to know has anyone tried the pitch-power thing and what was the result?

Regards

The Martial1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Martial1-
Yes, the FM does permit that (using power to control rate of descent as in RL).
One thing I find a little "off" about the FMs is the rate at which one bleeds speed- it just seems to be way too slow (ie: speed doesn't drop fast enough on throttle reduction)... this doesn't really affect using power to control RofD for landing, but it does mean making a larger circuit or side-slipping on final. That said, I usually just do a long and low final if damaged; or a crazy sideslip down to the threshold if not (I wouldn't do either in RL), without really being all that careful to anything other than airspeed and attitude.
Cheers,
C_G

Flightvector
06-09-2004, 01:10 PM
Martial1, I hope I didn't seem that way in my post, I want to help clear things up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but I should mention one thing you say.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When you add power, it increases the decent rate due to an increase in speed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It should be opposite, when you add power the plane goes up! Because more speed creates more lift, in pitch-power cut throttle to descend, add to climb. Nose up to slow down, Nose down to speed up. Often if you are way too high, raise the nose to 150 km/h and you will see a fast, almost stalling descent rate.

http://mysite.verizon.net/vze22ggz/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/fvsig2.jpg

HART_dreyer
06-09-2004, 01:11 PM
I learned how to land the Hurricane in my first 20 minutes of gameplay, so yes, it probably is way to easy and forgiving.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)

Martial1
06-09-2004, 01:15 PM
Thanks FlightVector for the informed comments. I dont have an issue with landings in IL2, but never use the pitch-power thing. I am betting that 99% of others dont either. Maybe its due to the trim method. Must admit I dont bother with trim much in IL2. What I normally do is hold pretty level and reduce power, get the flaps down, keep speed to around 200. Some times I have to do sharp turns to bleed speed ahead of landing when a long approach has not been possible.
Regards

The Martial1

Martial1
06-09-2004, 01:21 PM
Thanks FlightVector,

The point I made about the increase in descent due to an increas in airspeed is whatI think I am seeing in IL2 flight model. I agree it should be he opposite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Cold_Gambler
06-09-2004, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Martial1:
Thanks FlightVector,

The point I made about the increase in descent due to an increas in airspeed is whatI think I am seeing in IL2 flight model. I agree it should be he opposite http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends how far down your nose is pitched, but if you are on final approach with (some) flaps down and you dial in more throttle, you will see the nose rise.
So I don't think that's incorrectly modelled.

Speed bleed has problems, and Jet Jaguar is right: I don't believe (in fact I'm 99% sure) that ground effect is modelled. If you have lost your engine and are gliding down for a forced landing there never seems to be that last "cushion of air"- as most of the planes are low wing they should be subject to some.

[This message was edited by Cold_Gambler on Wed June 09 2004 at 01:20 PM.]

WTE_Galway
06-11-2004, 12:24 AM
when I did my (minimal) real time flight training I was taught that pitch usually controlled speed and throttle rate of climb/descend BUT in landing config once you were on the glide slope you kept the runway target point constant and used throttle to maintain sufficient airspeed

as a personal observation, IL2 is the only sim that did not make my real time landings worse - my instructor banned me from using FS2002 as its inaccurate landing behaviour had me very nervous about applying enough back stick in flare