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View Full Version : Suggestion After Origins: Assassins Creed as a Zealot movement successor



JonhSR
10-14-2017, 01:48 PM
I wanted to suggest a assassins game characterized as a zealout Jew. I believe it to be a great game for:

- characterize the assassins as zealots: the Zealots acted as assassins (according to historiography), and there would be no contradiction, since the term "assassins", historically, come later.

- the setting in the Jerusalem of the period of Jesus, would thus bring a great attraction for those who are curious to immerse in the society of the time of Jesus (as the bestseller Zealot), allowing to stumble into apostles, followers of John the Baptist, Pharisees, etc.

- explore a social structure of the time as part of the plot: Essenes, Sadducees, Farizeus, kings-clients, Roman occupation, etc.

- to give a more religious drama to the plot, use the scatology of "complete preterism," which it interprets as apocalyptic words as the destruction of Jerusalem in 77. As was a rebellion of the Zealots that precipitated a destruction in 77, this eschatology can be organically integrated into the history of the game.

To work, the Ubisoft must avoid the "Forrest Gump" effect (as in Assassins Creed III and others), it must just use elements of the historical context (as in the Ezio trilogy) culminating in a historical event (destruction of Jerusalem), not a serial of event collection. Ubisoft must improve the combat system (the Dark Soul, maybe in Origins already is ok), create interesting side-quests focused in to deeper in the historical context and gets organically the Jewish mysticism.

strigoi1958
10-14-2017, 05:10 PM
I'm ignoring that all my senses are telling me ths is the same sort of religious click bait that has appeared on far cry by people who make a few posts and disappear once they've trolled members into arguments.....
But either way, hopefully a mod will quickly lock this thread should it start getting out of hand.

I will just say this, the Assassins cause is far greater than any religious or national cause, Assassins can come from 2 opposing religions or countries, even if those countries are in the middle of a war.... and the Assassins would still work together because bringing peace to the world is far more important. So there can be no religious plot and no getting involved in any religious mysticism.

JonhSR
10-15-2017, 12:10 PM
I understand that it is really controversial, but the game already deals polemically with religiosity, and obviously, according to the mythology of the game, religious characters are reinterpreted as possessors of pieces of Eden.

What I found interesting in this characterization are the similarities between the zealots (sicarius) and the hashashins (assassins), there is no religious proselytism in my suggestion, because the zealots did not follow the Christian "pacifist" creed, they were followers of Barrabas. Secondly, why he would link the sects of different religious cults (zealots like Jews and hashashins as Muslims), that is, a Muslim sect would take precedence in a Jewish sect (in fact, as Islam itself ).

However, in the context of the game, all religions are always mythologies built by possessors of the pieces of Eden (obviously, the game would adapt to that).

strigoi1958
10-15-2017, 06:03 PM
It's not controversial because it has no bearing on the game. Once anyone learns what assassins seek.... that knowledge transcends religion and nationality by so much that they are insignificant.

If religions are mythology in the game and an assassins knowledge teaches that those mythologies are false then what difference does it matter what mythology they used to be taught?

But to simplify it. AC games are not about any nation vs nation or any religion against any other religion. AC games are sci fi games with a historical setting, with notable people and famous buildings and landmarks. Where an assassin is born or what he/she was taught to believe are completely irrelevant and it is just part of their personal life.... not the focus of any ac game.

If you had said, "I would like a game set in xxxx year, in xxxx country/ city because it has these famous landmarks and people and events.... " that would be a basis for an AC game.... The Assassin might well end up being Muslim fighting Jewish, Muslim and Christian Templars while being assisted by his Jewish and Christian assassins. Or even a Jewish assassin with Muslim assassins killing Jewish Templars and even that would not be controversial because religion is irrelevant in AC games.

ElderDarklion
10-15-2017, 06:53 PM
But to simplify it. AC games are not about any nation vs nation or any religion against any other religion. AC games are sci fi games with a historical setting, with notable people and famous buildings and landmarks. Where an assassin is born or what he/she was taught to believe are completely irrelevant and it is just part of their personal life.... not the focus of any ac game.
And that's exactly explain why so many people love this game. I'm a Muslim and for me The Heroes belief or nation not important. AC Games always say good and evil every where and no matter Assassin or Templar, Muslim or Jewish or Christian in my opinion.

JonhSR
10-16-2017, 02:17 PM
strigoi1958, I left tacit in my suggestion: the conflict between Templars vs Assassins will be translated to Sadducees (Templars) versus Zealots (assassins). The other factions will enrich the conflict, show a more pluralistic conflict than mere dualism.

I have suggested a given eschatology because the game usually has depth in information, and I am sure that Ubisoft will use eschatology as mythology into the game, and this eschatology would fit the plot. The game works with the aesthetics of "fantastic realism", more factual or cultural elements enrich the game experience with that aesthetics. For example, the RPG "Vampire, The Mask" rewrites origin of vampires from the biblical condemnation of Cain (are this RPG exalts any religion or nation?).

The Zealots are Jews like the Sadducees, there is, therefore, no religious or national conflict in my suggestion. Otherwise, in AC1 had a religious and national conflict as Christian vs. Muslim or Arabs vs. Europeans. Neither my suggestion is nationalist or religious, nor AC has no nationalist ou religious conflict (as historical background). Only someone ignorant of history would ignore this in the AC1. And why someone with no notion of history would play a game whose most attractive is its historical immersion?

This historical context has a greate appeal: the Roman empire, conflicts between as factions of Jews, others Semitic nations, Hellenistic culture as various philosophical schools: cynicism, stoicism, epicureanism, etc. It is the crossroads of various civilizations, cultures, nations, etc.

I like a more adult and historical approach, because, yes, AC players are not like Peter Pan. And I know this goes against a trend since AC2, and even more so in Origin (que cai totalmente na fantasia). My suggestions go against the major trend, the first players of AC want more historical, cultural, and challenging game, we want something more adult, more difficult, but the Ubisoft want new buyers. Sometimes I think that Ubisoft suffers in AC of the same disease of "The Curious Case of Benjamin Button". Maybe Ubisoft thinks the old players will buy any AC game, ever, and forever. Is Ubisoft right? Maybe not...

strigoi1958
10-16-2017, 03:31 PM
Maybe Ubisoft are right.... I am 59 years old :) I've bought Ubisoft games for 27 years.

I love Vampire masquerade the bloodlines it is one of my all time favourite games so it is nice when somebody mentions it. :)

I understand your point but the whole idea of AC is to show the assassins and templars are the only important "mythology" and so Ubisoft will probably never consider any religious conflict for a game, they only look for historical people, events and good cities, landmarks.

AC1 had assassins v Templars.... it does not matter what nationality or religion they are so AC1 never had a religious and national conflict as Christian vs. Muslim or Arabs vs. Europeans.

You ask "why someone with no notion of history would play a game whose most attractive is its historical immersion?" Then you do not understand why anyone plays games....

I play Shadow of War but I've never read a book by J. R. R. Tolkien.
I play space sims but I do not work at NASA.
I play mafia but I'm not a gangster :)

I play games because they are fun, not because I'm obsessed with religion or history.... just like the overwhelming majority of people who play games.

JonhSR
10-17-2017, 03:29 PM
Actually, after he ignores the topic, I really went unanswered for strigoi1958. At least, about my suggestion he has nothing more to say. In his last answer, what we have are some disastrous attempts to try to be, or appear to be, sarcastic.

What responds to someone who thinks that a game set in the crusades, renaissance, American revolution, French revolution, that thematizes slavery, freedom, authoritarianism, is just a cat-and-mouse game between templars and assassins? Maybe templars and assassins are not historical figures.

What responds to someone who considers "obsession" to like history in a game that ostensibly uses historical ambiances and historical characters as essential elements of their gameplay?

What responds to someone who thinks that to like history in a historical game is the same as having to be in the mafia to play a Mafia game or require work at NASA to play a space game?

strigoi1958, if you want to be sarcastic, better have a sense of logic (is that what I am an obsessive in logic too?). Because if you play Shadow of War, everything in the game is Tolkien's mythology, and it's irrelevant whether you want to read it or not...

Thus, a game series where the historical ambiance is present in all of its, most probably a good part of its "fun" depends on these historical elements... This is my last response for strigoi1958.

cawatrooper9
10-17-2017, 04:10 PM
Hey, let's address the topic and not the users, please. Thank you!

strigoi1958
10-17-2017, 04:18 PM
No Sarcasm,
I answered your question.... you asked "why someone with no notion of history would play a game whose most attractive is its historical immersion?"

And I answered I do not need to be interested in history to play a game because it has history in it

YOU think that the history is the most attractive part of the game, it is not for me... the combat, the stealth, the puzzles, the crafting, the xp tree and upgrading, the challenge and the satisfaction of winning.... History in AC is only a tiny tiny little piece of what makes up the game....

If you understand what AC games are about then you know why other people play them...... If you think only history fans play them or only history fans should be allowed to play them then you really do not know what AC games are about. Everyone can love ac games for whatever reason they choose.

I answered your first post.

AC games are not about glorifying religious and ethnic cleansing... they distance themselves from it. All assassins can come from any nationality, religion, belief, creed, gender, sexual orientation and lifestyle choices.... that is what makes up their character.... being an assassins sets them free from any allegiance except to the assassins brotherhood so no assassin could be characterized as a Jewish hero killing Muslims just because it would fit your game idea, sorry.

JonhSR
10-17-2017, 05:48 PM
I'm sorry for all for I try again, but I will, 'cause now he tried to pass of a sarcasm to dishonesty...

[QUOTE]
At Sarcasm,
I answered your question .... you asked "why someone with notion of history would play a game whose most attractive is its historical immersion?"

And I answered I do not need to be interested in history to play a game because it has history in it
[/ QUOTE]

I do not said that you can't play the game without "interested in history". I made the argument about the weight of history in the game, not a prohibition for you (I did not know that I had this power).

[QUOTE]
You think that the history is the most attractive part of the game, it is not for me ... the combat, the stealth, the puzzles, the crafting, the xp tree and upgrading, the challenge and the satisfaction of winning ... History in AC is only a tiny tiny piece of what makes up the game ....

If you understand what AC games are about then you know why other people play them ...... If you think only history fans play them or only history fans should be allowed to play them then you really do not know what AC games are about Everyone can love games for whatever reason they choose.
[/ QUOTE]

The combat system !? The Combat System is so attractive that in AC Origins was rebuilt. But ok, it's your personal opinion about what you like in AC, I and nobody have no problem with that. But, where is this topic about your personal preferences in AC?

What I said is that the history is the major attractive because, and only because, this one of the major focuses in the game. If not, why the whole colossal work of historical recriation? But, if you want to transform that as a proihibition to play if it is not a fan story, ok, it is the same logic that you used for the need to work to mafia to play Mafia.

[QUOTE]
I answered your first post.
[/ QUOTE]

Where?

[QUOTE]
AC games are not about glorifying religious and ethnic cleansing ... they distance themselves from it. All assassins can come from any nationality, religion, belief, creed, gender, sexual orientation and lifestyle choices .... that is what makes up their character .... being an assassins sets them free from any allegiance except to the assassins brotherhood Muslims just like it would fit your game idea, sorry.
[/ QUOTE]

Here I will reproduce what I already wrote about that, although he repeatedagain and again as if I never had wrote that.

[QUOTE]
strigoi1958, I left tacit in my suggestion: the conflict between Templars vs. Assassins will be translated to Sadducees versus Zealots. The other factions will enrich the conflict, show a more pluralistic conflict than mere dualism.

I have suggested a given eschatology because the game usually has depth in information, and I am sure that Ubisoft will use eschatology as the mythology into the game, and this eschatology would fit the plot. The game works with the aesthetics of "fantastic realism", more factual or cultural elements enrich the game experience with that aesthetics. For example, the RPG "Vampire, The Mask" rewrites origin of vampires from the Biblical condemnation of Cain (are these RPG exalts any religion or nation?).

The Zealots are Jews like the Sadducees, there is, therefore, no religious or national conflict in my suggestion. Otherwise, in AC1 had a religious and national conflict as Christian vs. Muslim or Arabs vs. Europeans. Neither my suggestion is nationalist or religious, nor AC has no nationalist or religious conflict (as historical background). Only one ignorant of history would ignore this in the AC1. And why someone with notion of history would play a game whose most attractive is its historical immersion?

This historical context has a greate appeal: the Roman empire, conflicts between factions of Jews, others Semitic nations, Hellenistic culture as various philosophical schools: cynicism, stoicism, epicureanism, etc. It is the crossroads of various civilizations, cultures, nations, etc.
[/ QUOTE]

JonhSR
10-17-2017, 05:53 PM
thinking better, I think it's better to ignore

it can someone exclude this topic, please?
it's not worth spending time in this discussion...