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View Full Version : I found some info on the Armed Dinah Ki-46 III KAI



Texas LongHorn
08-07-2004, 03:13 AM
Wow, I'm impressed. After seeing the Dinah shots on the update I looked up the armed version in my trusty thirty pound copy <ggg> of "The Complete Book of Fighters" by Green and Swanborough. The gist of it is as follows;
... The nose was redesigned to accommodate two 20-mm Cannon and the TOP CENTRE FUSELAGE FUEL TANK WAS REMOVED TO PROVIDE SPACE FOR A 37-mm CANNON FIRING FORWARD AND UPWARD AT AN ANGLE OF 30 deg.
I never knew the Japanese had used the same type of Schrag Musik principle as used in the Uhu-219. I wonder how many -29's found that little 37-mm nugget to be quite the suprise? I do not know for a fact but I'll bet even in that slim little fuse the guy in the back could load the 37 gun. What a cool plane, If they include the III KAI Armed model I may just not fly anything else. Top speed was 639 k/ph at 6000 meters. The range was (get this!) 2000 km plus an hour of combat time! I think I'm in love. If you look at the dev update image here:
http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/060804/Ki-46_Recce_04.jpg
You can imagine what a crazy crazy aircraft this must have been to fly. A supersleek twin with high speed, long legs, AND two 20's with an upward firing 37? When Pacific Fighters is released I'm gonna'speed lots of time in defense of the home islands. Man I love this sim. All the best, LongHorn

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/My_Sig_Image2.jpg

Texas LongHorn
08-07-2004, 03:13 AM
Wow, I'm impressed. After seeing the Dinah shots on the update I looked up the armed version in my trusty thirty pound copy &lt;ggg&gt; of "The Complete Book of Fighters" by Green and Swanborough. The gist of it is as follows;
... The nose was redesigned to accommodate two 20-mm Cannon and the TOP CENTRE FUSELAGE FUEL TANK WAS REMOVED TO PROVIDE SPACE FOR A 37-mm CANNON FIRING FORWARD AND UPWARD AT AN ANGLE OF 30 deg.
I never knew the Japanese had used the same type of Schrag Musik principle as used in the Uhu-219. I wonder how many -29's found that little 37-mm nugget to be quite the suprise? I do not know for a fact but I'll bet even in that slim little fuse the guy in the back could load the 37 gun. What a cool plane, If they include the III KAI Armed model I may just not fly anything else. Top speed was 639 k/ph at 6000 meters. The range was (get this!) 2000 km plus an hour of combat time! I think I'm in love. If you look at the dev update image here:
http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/060804/Ki-46_Recce_04.jpg
You can imagine what a crazy crazy aircraft this must have been to fly. A supersleek twin with high speed, long legs, AND two 20's with an upward firing 37? When Pacific Fighters is released I'm gonna'speed lots of time in defense of the home islands. Man I love this sim. All the best, LongHorn

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/My_Sig_Image2.jpg

F19_Olli72
08-07-2004, 06:58 AM
Im very interested in the use of 'nanme-ju' (oblique cannon) by the japanese. Actually IIRC the japanese experimented more with schr├┬Ągemusik than the germans in some aspects. For instance the japanese had schr├┬Ągemusik in single engined fighters (germans tried some prototype in the BF109 i think), the japanese had it in the Zero and Raiden. Also they converted a divebomber to an interceptor; the D4Y2-S Suisei/Judy (beautiful aircraft btw, hope we get some flyable Judy's even if not the interceptor version). Apparently they were used in daylightmissions too.

more here:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/faq/J2M.htm

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KIMURA
08-07-2004, 09:10 AM
Here some scans of that weapon mounted in the Ki-46-III's back. (note the radio wire is running fron tail plane to the gun barrel, which functions as antenna.(lower pic)


Interesting the fact that the Ki-45 had some kind of upward ANd downward firing guns. If someone is interested I store some interesting shots about that.

Ki-46-III with 37mm gun(Schr├┬Ąge Musik)

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/Ki-43-III.jpg

Kimura

heywooood
08-07-2004, 09:19 AM
Nice pics, Kimura.

This is a sleek twin, be sure.

And Tex... I'll have to get a copy of that paper anvil of yours...



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Burnin_777_AVG
08-07-2004, 03:00 PM
Don't worry about the armed Dinah. Thats well under control.

BV

heywooood
08-07-2004, 06:21 PM
Be sure?... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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Resident_Jock
08-07-2004, 11:25 PM
Wait - is that the twin engined fighter from Aces of the Pacific? I loved that plane, flew it probably more than any other japanese bird.

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Hoarmurath
08-08-2004, 12:38 AM
no, the twin engine from aotp was the Ki45 toryu...

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One13
08-08-2004, 03:57 AM
If you are looking for a twin-engined Japanese fighter how about the Ki-102-Otsu.
Foward armament 1x57mm Ho-401 cannon and 2x20mm Ho-5 cannon. Rear gunner had one 7.92mm or 13mm machinegun.
engines 2x1500Hp Ha-112-II Ru.
Speed 298mph (480kph) at sealevel.
360mph (580kph) at 19,685ft (6,000m)
Max range internal fuel 994mls (1,600km)

-----------------------------
First flight 20th Sept.1943

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Flydutch
08-08-2004, 04:02 AM
That is,
I must say probaly the strongest and most potent antenna mast!

Serious, I wonder how is it possible:

1,German and Japanese airforces must have communicated extensivly about this top secret "Schraege Musik" (Jazz Music!) concept!

2,The Allies had broken the Enigma code and were able to intercept Admiral Yammamotos traveling plan. And killed him.
Didn't they know about this weapon?

3,The British Bombercommand who were suffering the most from this devistating weapon, did nothing to counter it or its big loss to it!
Like putting a Belly- 'Sperry' ball turret as featured in the B-24 and B-17 (That they even possesed)in their British night bombers!

Or did they not want the Axis to know they knew about it, and sacrificed hundreds of Night Bommber crew.
The weapon and method seems to be pretty conventional: In WWI Aces like Albert Ball who used his biplane to sneak under his opponents in to their Deadzone (6 O'clock low)and kill them by shooting his oblique mounted Lewis gun into the a/c belly.

Like most aviators who where shot down in WWII by enemy a/c, they knew nothing untill it hit them.

I always wounderd why the RAF did seemingly nothing to counter this their Heavy bombers had all their guns pointing in the derection were a night fighter wouldn't aproach, the only gunner that would matter in defense was the Tailgunner!




method

F19_Olli72
08-08-2004, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
3,The British Bombercommand who were suffering the most from this devistating weapon, did nothing to counter it or its big loss to it!
Like putting a Belly- 'Sperry' ball turret as featured in the B-24 and B-17 (That they even possesed)in their British night bombers!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im sure they tried, but afik some radars fitted on RAF bombers had serious flaws. They could only detect aircraft approaching from behind, not from below. Also some RAF radars emitted signals that the germans could use to detect & home in on the bombers.

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TimTam27
08-08-2004, 06:11 AM
Two points:

The Japanese claim to be the first with upward firing cannons. A J1N1 Irving was field modified with 2 upward firing 20mm cannon at Rabaul. The Japanese claimed some kills against night raiding B-17s.

However good it may have looked on paper the armed Dinah was a failure as an interceptor because of an extremely poor rate of climb.
The Japanese tried lots of ways to knock down the B-29s but the most successful method was to take the armament out of standard fighters and crash them into the big bombers. Sometimes these special attackers even survived!

Flydutch
08-08-2004, 10:58 AM
Im sure they tried, but afik some radars fitted on RAF bombers had serious flaws. They could only detect aircraft approaching from behind, not from below. Also some RAF radars emitted signals that the germans could use to detect & home in on the bombers.

Ok, but still simply using the American bombers in their possesion for night raids or even better removing al guns except for the Tail gunner and added belly gunner would have improved their slim chance of survival and bettered their weight ratio!

Freycinet
08-08-2004, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TimTam27:
The Japanese tried lots of ways to knock down the B-29s but the most successful method was to take the armament out of standard fighters and crash them into the big bombers. Sometimes these special attackers even survived!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't the Japanese flak have been even more effective?

(I don't know if there are numbers for that, I'd be interested...)

ElAurens
08-08-2004, 02:35 PM
In all the USAAF lost over 400 B29s to Japanese defenses of all types.

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heywooood
08-08-2004, 04:14 PM
thats alot of airmen to lose...wow.



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NegativeGee
08-08-2004, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
Ok, but still simply using the American bombers in their possesion for night raids or even better removing al guns except for the Tail gunner and added belly gunner would have improved their slim chance of survival and bettered their weight ratio!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There you have a serious issue of available aircraft- there were no where near enough B-17's in the RAF to equip night operations on the scale Bomber Command operated. Some Fortress III's were employed in the EW role, but these were quite limited on the grand scale of things.

I think its a bit easy to say the RAF did nothing about the night fighter threat, just as to say the 8th AAF did nothing to improve the chances of their unesorted daylight raids.

The thing is, there was little inkling of what exactly was going on with schraege musik attacks- the method was very effective and contacts tended to result in a lost bomber. The RAF planes also essentially flew alone meaning there was little opportunity to observe attacks happen to other planes either (although some Canadian squadrons may had a gist as they installed a single M2 Browning with gunner on the underside of some of their heavies).

Operations were conducted over enemy territory as well- it was a rare event indeed when a German nightfighter would fall into Allied hands so that it could be analyised for its capabilities.

On the other hand, where radar was concerned the RAF was very innovative in devising counters like window (off course, the Luftwaffe was also quite adept in this race to).

Basically, defensive gunners were of very limited use in night operations, when it came to providing defensive fire at least. On the other hand, as look outs who could give warning of an approaching attacker giving the bomber a chance to slip away, they were much more effective.

Freycinet: I wonder if the crusing altitude in the high alt raids rendered flak defenses of limited effect?

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chris455
08-10-2004, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
In all the USAAF lost over 400 B29s to Japanese defenses of all types.

If you include weather, engine fires, and accidents as "Japanese defenses", you're right.
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Giganoni
08-10-2004, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
In all the USAAF lost over 400 B29s to Japanese defenses of all types.

If you include weather, engine fires, and accidents as "Japanese defenses", you're right.
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Actually it is around 360-380 operational B-29 losses. Those are losses for various reasons but during combat missions nonetheless.

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