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IDF_Baruchi
03-25-2004, 04:35 AM
Hi Oleg

We had few discussions in our squad about how to boost turn rate in a fight. One issue was the elevator trim position while in a turn.

Question: In the FB flight models, does elevator trim has an influence on turn rate? If I trim the aircraft to fly straight and level at say 500 kph in LA7, does it limt the maximum "pull up" input from the Joystick? Is there a difference between various Joysticks? with or without force feedback?

What do you guys know about the issue from real WW2 veterans? did they change trim settings in a turning fight?

My opinion about the subject: What I learned to do in real PPL course is that you dont change trim settings in a temporary manouver. I was told there that the elevator trim is not a control device, it's purpose is to let the pilot to fly comfortly in various flight situations and airspeed without struggeling with the aerodynamic forces that screen back to he's stick. I think it should not have influance on turn rate because:
in Real World, you never reach maximum elevator deflection, You will stall or exceed stractual limit way before maximum deflection. In addition, in "pull up", you apply pressure, you dont move the stick/column. The resistance of the stick is relative to the airspeed, so when the speed decreases (like in a tight turn) you can pull up further because there is less resistance.

What is the game makers policy about the subject? how much does it similar to Real World (ofcourse, considering the limitations of PC simulation and game joysticks)??

Waiting for your reply,
IDF_Baruchi
Training guide,
IDF_Squadron

[This message was edited by IDF_Baruchi on Thu March 25 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by IDF_Baruchi on Thu March 25 2004 at 03:59 AM.]

IDF_Baruchi
03-25-2004, 04:35 AM
Hi Oleg

We had few discussions in our squad about how to boost turn rate in a fight. One issue was the elevator trim position while in a turn.

Question: In the FB flight models, does elevator trim has an influence on turn rate? If I trim the aircraft to fly straight and level at say 500 kph in LA7, does it limt the maximum "pull up" input from the Joystick? Is there a difference between various Joysticks? with or without force feedback?

What do you guys know about the issue from real WW2 veterans? did they change trim settings in a turning fight?

My opinion about the subject: What I learned to do in real PPL course is that you dont change trim settings in a temporary manouver. I was told there that the elevator trim is not a control device, it's purpose is to let the pilot to fly comfortly in various flight situations and airspeed without struggeling with the aerodynamic forces that screen back to he's stick. I think it should not have influance on turn rate because:
in Real World, you never reach maximum elevator deflection, You will stall or exceed stractual limit way before maximum deflection. In addition, in "pull up", you apply pressure, you dont move the stick/column. The resistance of the stick is relative to the airspeed, so when the speed decreases (like in a tight turn) you can pull up further because there is less resistance.

What is the game makers policy about the subject? how much does it similar to Real World (ofcourse, considering the limitations of PC simulation and game joysticks)??

Waiting for your reply,
IDF_Baruchi
Training guide,
IDF_Squadron

[This message was edited by IDF_Baruchi on Thu March 25 2004 at 03:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by IDF_Baruchi on Thu March 25 2004 at 03:59 AM.]

Dnmy
03-25-2004, 05:14 AM
Trim can't be modelled accurately in a sim. In real life you use the control column to fly level and straight and trim away the forces. In the sim you do the exact opposite. You leave the control in centre and start trimming to fly level and straight. Ofcourse, this all implies that trim isn't accurately modelled to begin with in FB. Trim can't be accurately modelled in any sim.

And sure, you can boost your turn rate with trim in FB, like you can also boost your roll rate with trim in FB.


(I took some of your words herehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
In FB in "pullup", you apply pressure, you actually move the stick/column. The resistance of the stick is relative to the airspeed and the amount of trim applied. So when the speed increases but as long as you have enough elevator trim applied, you can pull up further because there is less resistance.

Don't know what the game makers policy is about the subject. Seems to me they just wanted to put it in as a gimmick. They coulda just left it out and let all planes fly in trim automatically. Adding unrealistic trim adds nothing to the game but an unnescessary control to fiddle with. It's like adding a disfunctional gauge to an instrument panel. It's nice it's there but it has no realistic value.

IDF_Baruchi
03-25-2004, 05:36 AM
Hey Dnmy thanks for your reply
So now I understand that Its a sim problem not a Trim problem.

Anyway, You convinsed me about use of trim in a turn but I disagree that Trim has no function at all. Try to fly fast and keep your nose inplace relative to the horizon, you will fill that you do need to move stick forward in order to resist the nose tendancy to go up, and vise versia, if you fly slow you need to pull up. in FB I use the trim to kill these up/down tendencies.This is exactly how it is done in real world, you put your nose inplace relative to the horizon and you "lock" it (cancel stick resist forces) using the elevator trim.

Is there any real fighter pilot (or former fighter pilot) here who can pure some light on this issue? What do they do with the trim in a fight???

Dnmy
03-25-2004, 06:11 AM
Well the difference is that in real life you feel the stickforces when your plane has a nose up/down tendency.

In the sim we don't feel them.

The only forces we "might" feel are the centering forces, but they can hardly be compared with the real life stickforces. How can they be? But that's how it's done in the sim.

E.g. i have a joystick with which i can adjust the centering force to my liking, from ultra strong to non existant. I like it a non existant centering force.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So that means it doesn't cost me any trouble to keep the stick pointed down whatsoever. Hence the need for me to apply trim is absent. (Except for rudder trim and the occaisional recovery at high speed.) But the guy who has a cougar with ultra high centering forces might not agree. He even feels the "stick" (centering) force when he's deflecting his controls waiting on the runway.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WWMaxGunz
03-25-2004, 06:18 AM
In the real world your control stays where you had to move it to keep the nose right after you trim. Can you say that about your joystick? No. The reason is simple. Your joystick is not a direct control of the stick in the sim cockpit. Your joystick is only telling the pilot how hard to pull that stick. You control pilot, pilot controls stick as he is best able.

The unreal part is that you cannot feel the stick force in the plane getting less and less. You cannot make the pilot hold the stick steady as forces on the controls change. You can only say "pull, push or bend this hard" by moving your stick a corresponding distance. It is more like the pilot has a bungee cord to pull the stick with than he is holding it in place because if the force on the stick drops and you who have no feel of this do not loosen up on your joystick then your pilot will still be pulling just as hard and the stick will move further. You get into a situation where the forces are fluctuating and not only have you no feel but the pilot will actually make things worse unless you are trimmed whether for level or any other kind of flight.

It is this way partly or wholly because our joysticks have very short travel compared to real. I would love for some way for the pilot to hold the stick steady yet since as forces lessen there may be times I want him to be able to get more deflection it becomes impossible to have both ways.

Just be aware of it. Trim makes it easier to pull more stick. If you are using default stick settings then trim also lets you have finer control over turns in a somewhat realistic manner. Think that through before you say no, it doesn't. Really think.

Last of all there is the recollections of US Ace Bud Anderson who described using trim in combat as a matter of course and did so in some detail including why. When you're out flying GA around, your butt isn't on the line to be shot off where those guys' were and they used every bit of advantage they could handle.


Neal

IDF_Baruchi
03-25-2004, 07:21 AM
Hey Max thanks
I am giving "orders" to the "pilot" in the sim - thats an interesting way of thinking.

Despite all what was written here about the disadvantages of game joysticks, I would like to suggest a programmed algorithm that takes into account the speed and strength of the airflow that flows around control surfaces, and change the controlling inputs sensitivity accordingly. This way, in slow speeds, you will need to add more stick deflections than in high speeds. Well, true it will never be the same as in Real world because what we can change here is the amount of travel rather than the amount of pressure, but provided that our joystick has a constant centering spring K coeficiant, bigger travel means also bigger force (or pressure -what ever)so it makes it a bit similar. Maybe this feature already exists???


Editing: Well, after second thought -this will result exactly the opposit of the desired effect: you will need higher deflections = higher forces in slow speeds. In real world you fill higer resistance in higher speeds. oh boy this is confusing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gifMaybe I should put a fan in front of my joystick and see what happens in various fan speeds.... end of editing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif
What is mostly missing to me in simulators refering to real world is that when you are on the ground and push the throtlle, the yoke goes back towards your stomach -due to the propeller stream around the elevator control surface. It never happened to me in any simulator...LOL.

Max, You gave here a name of a real fighter pilot who refered to the subject. Do you have any link to he's articles????

[This message was edited by IDF_Baruchi on Thu March 25 2004 at 06:29 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
03-25-2004, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IDF_Baruchi:
Hey Max thanks
I am giving "orders" to the "pilot" in the sim - thats an interesting way of thinking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you can thank Oleg because that is what he posted I guess 2 years ago about how the stick interface works. It may also be in an IL2 readme file.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Despite all what was written here about the disadvantages of game joysticks, I would like to suggest a programmed algorithm that takes into account the speed and strength of the airflow that flows around control surfaces, and change the controlling inputs sensitivity accordingly. This way, in slow speeds, you will need to add more stick deflections than in high speeds. Well, true it will never be the same as in Real world because what we can change here is the amount of travel rather than the amount of pressure, but provided that our joystick has a constant centering spring K coeficiant, bigger travel means also bigger force (or pressure -what ever)so it makes it a bit similar. Maybe this feature already exists???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sort of. With more speed there is in the model more backforce on the virtual stick that you see in the cockpit. When you pull your joystick you are commanding the virtual pilot to pull against the backforce with a certain amount of strength that is 50 lbs force x the % of stick travel x the stick sensitivity value for the range of how far back you have pulled your joystick. I believe that this is in a readme or was in IL2:Sturmovik. There comes speeds in most or all planes where the pilot is unable to pull hard enough to get full deflection.

Oleg is a pilot and also an Aero Engineer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Editing: Well, after second thought -this will result exactly the opposit of the desired effect: you will need higher deflections = higher forces in slow speeds. In real world you fill higer resistance in higher speeds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is what we have.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>oh boy this is confusing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gifMaybe I should put a fan in front of my joystick and see what happens in various fan speeds.... end of editing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif
What is mostly missing to me in simulators refering to real world is that when you are on the ground and push the throtlle, the yoke goes back towards your stomach -due to the propeller stream around the elevator control surface. It never happened to me in any simulator...LOL.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, when the desktop PC's get powerful enough and there's enough time and space to code it in then maybe you get that wish as well!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Max, You gave here a name of a real fighter pilot who refered to the subject. Do you have any link to he's articles????

[This message was edited by IDF_Baruchi on Thu March 25 2004 at 06:29 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A little Google, matchwords Bud Anderson trim and the top of the list is that interview.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

BTW, this man was Chuck Yeagers wingman and friend from traing, through the war and all afterward. He may still be alive. You can be sure that all those men at least in their wing shared any knowlege or practices that could help so I doubt that this was an isolated case, just one of the few times it was related.


Neal

JV44Rall
03-25-2004, 01:10 PM
"What do you guys know about the issue from real WW2 veterans? did they change trim settings in a turning fight?"

I think it was Yeager who said that he adjusted trim continually and that you could recognize inexperienced LW pilots because their planes were out of trim.

Also, I can't recall who it was at the moment, but I've read an account where a Me109 pilot was in a high speed dive to escape someone on his six and used his trim to help pull out.

My impressions of the last two months revolve around dawns. Pink dawns, grey dawns, misty, rainy and windy dawns, but always dawns; first light. Shadowy Spitfires and quietness . . . . Geoffrey Wellum, First Light.

CHDT
03-25-2004, 01:43 PM
"I think it was Yeager who said that he adjusted trim continually and that you could recognize inexperienced LW pilots because their planes were out of trim."

Yes, continuous adjustements, but small ones. At high speeds, hard trimming can result in loss of control or even very rapid changes in flight patch which could give even structural failures.

"Also, I can't recall who it was at the moment, but I've read an account where a Me109 pilot was in a high speed dive to escape someone on his six and used his trim to help pull out."

I remember this story. It's a Finnish pilot who said that he would have lose his wings if he used trim to get out of the dive!

Cheers,

Dnmy
03-25-2004, 05:08 PM
I read of a story of 109 pilots pretrimming their elevator up before they got into combat. This would allow them to pull up much faster, but it required them to push down on the control column to fly level.

I read the same thing again in an interview with a finnish ww2 veteran, who described it as "a trick of the aces" to turn faster.

WWScout
03-25-2004, 08:12 PM
In the book titled the "Blond Knight of Germany" Hartman states he kept the nose of his 109 trimmed up a little in flight. I haven't read it for a while but I assume it was for when he entered a dogfight he would turn better.

WWMaxGunz
03-25-2004, 08:40 PM
In IL2 and FB it pays to neutralize trim before going from fast flight (level, climb or dive where you would use trim if staying in that regime for more than a short time, hey?) into combat.

I don't believe that Anderson, Yeager, Hartmann or others allowed themselves to get far off ceneter with the trim in any situation where changes in manuever were indicated.

You still have combat where you will be pitching up often and sometimes a good while into high G's. The pilot who fails to keep it up faces death from the one who does more. Much of your strength is drained just keeping conscious. To think that you wouldn't trim the stick to make it easier to control would be ignorance or madness. Back trim does not make it impossible to push the stick forward of the trim point, just harder than if neutral. When your arms and upper body are spending so much time pulling back, a few seconds working the other way can be a relief.

I like to neutralize trim coming into landing and then with some planes trim it up a handful of taps.


Neal

WWMaxGunz
03-25-2004, 08:53 PM
Baruchi...

imagine if you are in your plane and turning the trim wheel but instead of holding the controls steady as the pressure is relieved you just keep pulling back while you trim. Moreover, imagine someone else is turning the trim and you only hold a stiff bungee cord connected to the controls. You watch the instruments and the horizon and pull or loosen up on the bungee to suit.
The person turning the trim wheel is deaf and turns the wheel by hand signals you give. If you point quickly up or down then that person always turns the wheel a set number of degrees up or down. If you hold your pointing finger then that person sees for how long and closes his eyes to count for maybe 20x that long while turning the wheel at a slow, steady rate. During that time you cannot stop the turning. Believe me, I asked for some way and the answer is no.

That is what we have. It works very well in many ways and it's a pain in others, at least for combat flying.


Neal

BigKahuna_GS
03-27-2004, 02:19 PM
S!

Yes Bud Anderson is alive and well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

At least when I emailed him a couple of weeks ago to ask him when his Sqdn received g-suits he was.

I was fortunate enough to attend a WW2 Fighter Pilot Symposium. Our group of friends sat with Bud Anderson and Bob Goebel. I was able to ask both men many questions about strategy & tactics employed during a mission. Also the strengths & weakness of the Mustang.

Both men had high praise of the Pony as a complete aircraft with many outstanding attributes.

These men flew the Pony around 525+mph(TAS)in dives and the plane did not blow up with a change of attitude--- only in FB does it.

While it is true that WW2 Pilots made slight adjustments in trim to relieve stick pressure they did not crank on the trim wheel like an organ grinder to max trim everytime a change of direction occurred.

There is a difference between the real world use of trim and the way it is utilized in FB/AEP.


__________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

BBB_Hyperion
03-27-2004, 03:00 PM
For the 109 you can find clearly that trimm should make a difference.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/

As additonal question.
Is IAS or TAS used for rudder stick forces in il2fb ?

Regards,
Hyperion

03-27-2004, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
I read of a story of 109 pilots pretrimming their elevator up before they got into combat. This would allow them to pull up much faster, but it required them to push down on the control column to fly level.

I read the same thing again in an interview with a finnish ww2 veteran, who described it as "a trick of the aces" to turn faster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is also the trick of a certain famous Online Ace. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

CHDT
03-27-2004, 04:33 PM
Yes, very good link:


"If I in that situation had used the vertical trim the wings would have been broken off. A minimal trim movement has a strong effect on wings when the speed limit has been exceded. I had 100kmh overspeed! It was out of all limits."

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Elevator trim must be used, even in hard manoeuvering, but in very cautious steps! Or: Kaboum http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
03-27-2004, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigKahuna_GS:
S!

Yes Bud Anderson is alive and well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

At least when I emailed him a couple of weeks ago to ask him when his Sqdn received g-suits he was.

I was fortunate enough to attend a WW2 Fighter Pilot Symposium. Our group of friends sat with Bud Anderson and Bob Goebel. I was able to ask both men many questions about strategy & tactics employed during a mission. Also the strengths & weakness of the Mustang.

Both men had high praise of the Pony as a complete aircraft with many outstanding attributes.

These men flew the Pony around 525+mph(TAS)in dives and the plane did not blow up with a change of attitude--- only in FB does it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well we are waiting on a patch and we know what those can do. We also know that there will be quirks and for some they may be showstoppers... for some people is a freaking requirement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While it is true that WW2 Pilots made slight adjustments in trim to relieve stick pressure they did not crank on the trim wheel like an organ grinder to max trim everytime a change of direction occurred.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree! They couldn't trim too far as they might need to trim back and didn't have a magic instant-neutralize button like we do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is a difference between the real world use of trim and the way it is utilized in FB/AEP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well here's a bit of a rub. They didn't have controls like IL2/FB/AEP either! They didn't have short throw joysticks being interpreted as unidirectional force inputs against no feel whatsoever. They could hold their sticks steady against fluctuationg forces as needed. They had other advantages including straight control of their stick positions as opposed to trim is the center of your fine control and the more you move the stick past that the coarser you control becomes unless it's all coarse in which case you have no fine control.

It's unreal trim and an unreal system but the two work out pretty well. Taking the trim to extremes is an unreal exploit just as not using it at all in combat (within limits) is an unreal handicap.
The delayed trim has taken much of the advantage of the exploit away while it has also made legitimate use even more difficult. People can still exploit trim, especially those with trim on a dial or wiper. Back when the big debate was on, I was one of those who pushed for a better solution.

We got what we got. There's reasonable use and then there's RBJ.


Neal

03-27-2004, 05:19 PM
Well said, WWMaxGunz.

We're simply flying this sim with different controls than what's found in real aircraft.

When fly-by-wire was first introduced into the F-16, the designers were concerned about controllability and ergonomics. So rather than interpret the distance the stick moves, the F-16's control inputs are based based on the force applied to the stick. The original stick didn't move at all, but pilots thought it was too weird, so they gave the stick a little bit of travel.

WWMaxGunz
03-27-2004, 05:49 PM
hey, given the hardware limitations we can't have the real thing. Even FF sticks aren't there yet. It's not to fault the sim or the maker, they have done a good and original to my experience job. All I say is we have to work with it as a whole and that includes some things that some people don't like the analogies of. Accounts like Bud Andersons' should make some use of trim in combat fully acceptable.

Overuse of trim is still a problem as is the inability for key users to prejudge more than successive taps (ie holding the key down more than 1/4 second) or to apply any corrections until after the delayed trim is fully done without giving notice. Overuse of trim is easier with instant neutral trim but for legitimate key trimmers... to delay that return and still no message telling when trim is done will complete the handicap of not having a dial. Even the dial usrs have to wait to make further changes but they at least have some idea of where the dial has been set!

Oh, BTW, the trim will not be changed and I accept that. I point those things out only to show that with unreal controls it's not reasonable to mandate exact real use. It's not practical either for that matter because how do you do that? How do you judge trim use? Will it be every other time someone gets beat in a turn that they'll be calling cheat? Sorry but I've seen too many situations of misjudgement where that's happened and others where it didn't despite what was possibly excessive use of trim (admitted by the user but not heavy trim).

Is neutral and 4 to 6 taps of nose up excessive in a 109? I hope not because I've done that and maybe 8 taps up going into turns or combat. What I lose is some fine control in the nose down direction (6 or 8 taps isn't much at all) and possibly but I doubt it, some control authority in the nose down if I go fast enough.

Last question and point. Does use of trim in IL2/FB/AEP have disadvantages that match reality? I believe so.


Neal

IDF_Baruchi
03-28-2004, 03:39 AM
OK
It was Shabat (Saturday) and I am a religious jew - I dont use computer at saturday. Any way I am happy to see the replies accumulated here. Let me try to summarise the issue:
In a turning fight - it is practice to use a small amount of trim up -this was true either in Real World- in order to decrease the big back pressure needed in a tight turn. It is also practical in FB - in order to increase the max. travel of the game joystick.

Now I have a remark about "keyboard" trim and Real world Trim wheel: In Real World you dont count taps, and as Neal wrote, there is no neutral position. In a calm flight (I.E. steady climb, cruise or descend) There are only two indicators who tell you if you are trimmed or not:
1. Natural horizon (or atrificial horizon at night or at poor visibility)
2. Forces that screen back to your control stick/column.

You watch the horizon for nose up/ nose down tendency - and respond to it using the elevator (not the elevator trim)
You use the Trim to eliminae aerodynamic forces from the elevator control surface. This process is always done refering to the horizon only.

Reffering to the trim as a taps count device with absolute values, is a typical mistake of simmers - (like what Neal wrote about trimming at finnal approach)

In practice every change (big one) in airspeed, engine setting and nose position, requires trimming. If you get used to fly according to the horizon and be aware to the slightest changes in nose position and forces from the stick, you do trim correctly as a second nature whitout to much thinking (or taps counting).

The problem in a turn is that you cant reffer to the horizon because that there is no target value -I.E. you dont trim according to the nose position because it is constantly changing - you are always climbing "up" the ladder (changing direction) along the turn. So what is left to determine in the turn is how much I need to trim up in order to ease the back pressure from the stick and this is subjective issue. It depends on each pilot's feelings and musceles.

WWMaxGunz
03-28-2004, 04:31 AM
Counting taps is part of traslating practices into game terms. Reality is fine but the sim is not reality, only an analogy that works as such. Methods are not 1:1.


Neal

IDF_Baruchi
03-28-2004, 04:43 AM
I think you did not get me.
Even in the game, I dont count taps. If I fell that the aircraft is not trimmed (I.E: nose has up/ down tendency if I leave the stick) what I do is keep on dialing up or down until it becomes steady. I don't count taps.

WWMaxGunz
03-28-2004, 10:02 AM
Yes for level flight. Try the same before going into combat maneuvers. Steady is where?

I hit for neutral, virtual wheel is now centered. Then I add in a bit of bias towards stick back force cancellation. I want the same bias then I quickly tap s few times and deal with the next thing, maneuver and SA. This is not for straight flight.

I do use trim for straight climbs or long shallow dives as well as level. There I can take time adjusting. The game system does not have feel so I cannot be fully as Bud Anderson and real aces.


Neal

BigKahuna_GS
03-28-2004, 04:59 PM
S!

Accounts like Bud Andersons' should make some use of trim in combat fully acceptable.

**I totally agree

What I have a problem with is "gaming the game", programming trim to a slider and using max use of trim when manuevering.

This is supposed to be a realistic sim---using max trim on a slider for turns is soooo far from real life.

There must be a better way to model trim or set limitations to it.


____________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson : It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.