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View Full Version : warden sb unpunishable?



SenBotsu893
10-04-2017, 06:36 PM
as the tilte says i am wondering if wardens sb is still such an cheesy tool for him.

anyone knows the minimum charge time he has to do? seems so fast for me if he is only going for a light sb with the guaranteed double light follow up.

but if i dodnge to early he gets a free gb. wich will give him 30 damage or even 40 if a wall is nearby...

so i generally just stand there and let it hit me so i can cgb if he goes eventually for a gb. and thats not really a fun way to fight someone.

another thing if i dodge his sb and go for a gb he can cgb. am i gb to late? if he can cgb in that situation that would seem to me very unfair.

thoughts?

Antonioj26
10-04-2017, 07:11 PM
It's 700ms before it connects if he's in your face and can only gb for the first 400ms. If you dodge early enough you can gb except for maybe the characters with 700ms dodge recovery. You can also punish sb into gb punishes with a light, before timesnap was removed 500ms lights could even stop the sb but it will connect now if you go for a light

Moondyne_MC
10-04-2017, 10:57 PM
I certainly wouldn't be against adding a "flash" to the Wardens SB when it becomes uncancellable (basically an indicator of when it's safe to dodge), akin to the Shugo's flash when his hyperarmour returns.

Learning each characters moves in order to defend against them is one thing, but learning and memorising maximum cancellable times to try and use in the heat of battle with not much in the way of visual aids isn't quite ideal.

Antonioj26
10-04-2017, 11:04 PM
I certainly wouldn't be against adding a "flash" to the Wardens SB when it becomes uncancellable (basically an indicator of when it's safe to dodge), akin to the Shugo's flash when his hyperarmour returns.

Learning each characters moves in order to defend against them is one thing, but learning and memorising maximum cancellable times to try and use in the heat of battle with not much in the way of visual aids isn't quite ideal.

I disagree, it's already 100percent reactable on PC and on console its still doable but a bit harder. It's already been nerfed twice, it doesn't need anymore hits. Nerf it again and you might as well just take him out of the game since it's all he has and it's definitely manageable.

SenBotsu893
10-05-2017, 03:48 PM
I disagree, it's already 100percent reactable on PC and on console its still doable but a bit harder. It's already been nerfed twice, it doesn't need anymore hits. Nerf it again and you might as well just take him out of the game since it's all he has and it's definitely manageable.

but warden can react upon the sb reaction. thats the issue.

hell he can even completly cancel the sb baiting out an evade attack for an easy parry.

thats why i feel its literrally unpunishable

700 ms is the fully charged right? that you can obvously dodge if not engaged with someone else
but what is the minimum charge time for a sb? 300ms? 400ms?

sidenote: sb is not his only tool he still has so many options. fast top light attacks, fast zone, insane fast running heavy, crushing counter + guranateed sb + follow up damage. good heavy damage, heavy faint into zone. a warden main could probably go on.

Antonioj26
10-05-2017, 04:24 PM
but warden can react upon the sb reaction. thats the issue.

hell he can even completly cancel the sb baiting out an evade attack for an easy parry.

thats why i feel its literrally unpunishable

700 ms is the fully charged right? that you can obvously dodge if not engaged with someone else
but what is the minimum charge time for a sb? 300ms? 400ms?

sidenote: sb is not his only tool he still has so many options. fast top light attacks, fast zone, insane fast running heavy, crushing counter + guranateed sb + follow up damage. good heavy damage, heavy faint into zone. a warden main could probably go on.

He can only cancel in the first 400ms if he doesn't cancel or gb then he has to commit to the sb which is why I say it's 100 percent reactable. There's a 300ms gap of complete safety which Is very generous and if You get the timing then you've nullified his only tool. 700ms is the minimum charge 1000ms us the fully charged.

Top light is low damage, zone is incredibly unsafe, running attack can easily be blocked by guarding right if you see warden sprint, crushing counter is good but easily avoided by just not attacking from the top, heavy feint into zone is too slow and unsafe, and his damage is average maybe slightly above average at best. Without Sb he's a crappy Orochi with crushing counter

SwellChemosabe
10-05-2017, 04:37 PM
He can only cancel in the first 400ms if he doesn't cancel or gb then he has to commit to the sb which is why I say it's 100 percent reactable. There's a 300ms gap of complete safety which Is very generous and if You get the timing then you've nullified his only tool. 700ms is the minimum charge 1000ms us the fully charged.

Top light is low damage, zone is incredibly unsafe, running attack can easily be blocked by guarding right if you see warden sprint, crushing counter is good but easily avoided by just not attacking from the top, heavy feint into zone is too slow and unsafe, and his damage is average at best slightly above average. Without Sb he's a crappy Orochi with crushing counter

*whispers creepily into tv screen* shhh, it's ok baby roach, he didn't mean it, hush now.


lol but i'm kind of with antonio on this one. I just picked up warden to have a vanguard when that contract comes flying around every now and then. He's decent, a little clunky for my taste but that's just because i main assassins most of the time, but still decent. his SB is definately not the most reliable thing in his move-set and very punishable.

SenBotsu893
10-05-2017, 06:05 PM
He can only cancel in the first 400ms if he doesn't cancel or gb then he has to commit to the sb which is why I say it's 100 percent reactable. There's a 300ms gap of complete safety which Is very generous and if You get the timing then you've nullified his only tool. 700ms is the minimum charge 1000ms us the fully charged.


so you need to watch out exactly 400 ms for a gb/cancel and then you need to hit the evade within exact 300ms? okey things become more clearer now.

but still if people complain about pk 400ms attacks to fast to properly react to then i wouldnt call the two consecutive timeframes generrous.

if it would be just a single 700ms bash similar to Congq or Lawbringer it wold be more managable.



Top light is low damage, zone is incredibly unsafe, running attack can easily be blocked by guarding right if you see warden sprint, crushing counter is good but easily avoided by just not attacking from the top, heavy feint into zone is too slow and unsafe, and his damage is average maybe slightly above average at best. Without Sb he's a crappy Orochi with crushing counter

i was just giving examples of what else he has besides sb. and you confirmed with me that he indeed has other attacks than just sb. how viable they are depends on the match up and to a large degree on the platform you play on.

the fast zone attacks regardless if warden/pk/orochi are almost sure damage on console. i have yet to see someone block them consistently on reaction.
and not beeing able to use top attacks pretty much shuts down many characters like orochi or kensei.

Antonioj26
10-05-2017, 06:21 PM
so you need to watch out exactly 400 ms for a gb/cancel and then you need to hit the evade within exact 300ms? okey things become more clearer now.

but still if people complain about pk 400ms attacks to fast to properly react to then i wouldnt call the two consecutive timeframes generrous.

if it would be just a single 700ms bash similar to Congq or Lawbringer it wold be more managable.



i was just giving examples of what else he has besides sb. and you confirmed with me that he indeed has other attacks than just sb. how viable they are depends on the match up and to a large degree on the platform you play on.

the fast zone attacks regardless if warden/pk/orochi are almost sure damage on console. i have yet to see someone block them consistently on reaction.
and not beeing able to use top attacks pretty much shuts down many characters like orochi or kensei.

Well considering that parry is 200ms (which is already wAy too easy) I would definitely call 300ms generous. Pk example isn't analogous at all, you don't have to dodge right at 400ms of warden sb charge you can dodge anywhere between 400-700ms and you absolutely have to block pks zone at 400ms. You have all the way up to 700ms, for reference a shugo light is 600ms.

Quality over quantity, everything I listed has little use at high level play aside from crushing counter strike. Zone is far too unsafe and blocking a 500ms attack that comes from a fixed vector on reaction is easily manageable even on console.

Not even really the point of the thread though. Your question was is SB unpunishable and no it is not.

Vonnivek
10-06-2017, 04:58 AM
I agree with Antonio, SB isn't unpushishable.
You can play warden yourself, try some SB
Now you can't cansel SB to GB late, you have to cansel it really early,
so warden can't cansel it to GB based on opponent`s reaction anymore
Also u can punish SB to GB with a light,
punish SB with dodge and GB, or any dodge attack
Dodge SB cancel with GB(not sure about this)
Just need some learning.
Warden is still strong, it's just not that strong anymore.
I think there are other heroes stronger than warden

Jazz117Volkov
10-06-2017, 07:45 AM
I've been maining Warden since release. Still my favourite hero. But I agree that the kit could use work. Mostly broadening the move-set. Warden has very little middle-ground: there's about two things you can do that work well (one of them will break a turtle, thank fcuk), but 95% of the time the (only two) other moves Warden has are just terrible ideas.

Zone can be useful (against newbies, or) after a parry when you're being ganked. Use it when your revenge is charged, that way if it's blocked you can exit the punish.

I don't know about nerfs, but two slight buffs I wouldn't mind seeing on Warden are: top heavy after charged Shoulder Bash is unblockable (that way you can better force reactions; spacing is super fiddly with it as it is), and Crushing Counter could use hyper armour. It's amazing in ganks, but players have learned to just tap you out of it. But that's just me...a Warden main...so I'm probably bias or whatever.

edit: and a return to charged shoulder bash feinting. It was super useful.
Something else spammers ruined for the rest of us, I suppose. :'(