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View Full Version : Poll: How should Parry and GB be changed?



PDXGorechild
10-03-2017, 09:07 AM
I'm sure changes are on the way, and I imagine at this stage that whatever is being said on the forums about the matter will make no difference, but i'm getting impatient and wanted to see what you lot think.

Parry and Guard break are the two main components of the "Defensive Meta" play style. That is, that they both guarantee a heavy attack when pulled off with no fear of consequence. This means that in duels or tournaments especially, a fighting game with a dazzling array of attacks and combo's is essentially reduced to Parry > guard break > heavy > feint > guard break > heavy > Parry > heavy > etc.

I've always felt like it seizes the game up and makes it boring. I've played opponents who have been able to repeat this cycle on me expertly, never taking the risk to throw an attack, killing me entirely with heavy attacks that were guaranteed to land. Whilst I enjoy the flavour these mechanics give to the game, I don't like feeling out of control of my character in a fighting game, and I suspect most players will agree with me.

So here's a list of options i've compiled - let's see which is the most popular.

EDIT: If you're confused at the terminology, Guaranteed attacks are ones that cannot be defended against, no matter how fast you react, your character will not react in time. These changes are assuming the other aspects of each mechanic remain the same, that is, Parry drains stamina and staggers and GB allows people to be thrown off cliffs/into walls. Wallsplat still works.

S0Mi_xD
10-03-2017, 10:30 AM
Other:

Parry:
- No Heavy, Light or GB
- every Hero should have a parry punish move (Shinobi, Warlord, Gladiator, Centurion already have one, maybe i forgot someone)
- it should be a move that fits the heroes move set
- I think parry should cost stamina, to reduce the abuse of it.
- Parry in OOS would be still possible, but it takes away a huge part of the regeneration -> it takes longer to recover from OOS, but therefor you are abit safer

We already saw, that a guaranteed light attack after a parry is pretty much unbalanced across the rooster.
Some heroes get double lights, or have their own parry punish move, while others get a light attack and maybe a zone (which is stronger than a light with most heroes, but consumes a huge amount of stamina).
That's why i think the best way would be a hero specific move that works in favor of the hero, but overall isn't to strong

GB
I feel like GB rewards are in a good place, especially after parry doesn't guarantee a Gb anymore - they are not that easy to get.
also a " only light reward" on GBs would cause the same imbalance between the heroes, like a light reward after parry.

Blocking
Blocking would still remain a turtle fact, especially if Chip doesn't kill and HP do regen up to 25.

- if chip would kill, this would imbalance blocking in 4v4 very much (so i don't think this is an option)
- HP regen on the last bar is an 1v1 only problem, in 4v4 it feels very important to stay

The game is made around 4v4 modes, both those problems are 1v1 problems, which is a "bonus" in the game, both problems are depending on each other, and are important in 4v4.
That's why i thought, that it needs a new mechanic to balance it out.

Here is the idea:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1745375-Do-we-need-a-real-Guard-Break

I know, we could give every hero an unblockable or melee attack, but i think those attacks need to be toned down on some heroes. Unless you want this game to be an unblockable spamfest :D

This idea i come up with would work hand in hand with different mechanics:
- it would give a chance for a GB
- it would give parry the defensive purpose, if they would take away all safe dmg from it (because we saw in the PTS 2 that player rather take the chip and block instead of going for a "more risky parry"
- it would balance out the GB on dodge for all classes (especially in favor of higher dodge recovery)
- it would bring a different dynamic into the game

But i don't believe that such a huge change would every come in for Honor ^^ - still those are my 2 Cents (2 more for a Cent squad)

PDXGorechild
10-03-2017, 11:18 AM
I feel that if every class had it's own unique punish for Parry, it will open the game up to more exploitation. Some punishes are bound to come up better than others, and the punishes that translate to raw damage could continue to be abused just as Parry > Free heavy is abused now.
I honestly feel that Parry, even if it didn't have any guaranteed follow up attacks, could still be a very viable tool for those with the skill to use it. If you're skilled enough to consistently pull off Parry's, it's favourable to use it over blocking as it drains the enemies stamina and means you don't take any chip damage. It also has the added possibility to stagger an enemy into a wall (for a justified, situational free heavy), off a ledge, or into one of the enemies team mates. It also gives you the initiative for the next attack, making it a bit harder for your opponent to react in time. In my mind this is reward enough for something that is essentially only a shade more difficult to do than blocking.

Having a guaranteed Light attack for GB makes sense to me. Light attacks have a pretty high chance to land anyway, I land many more of them than I do successful guard breaks. So granting a free light once in guard break would allow players to get a combo started, or they can opt to throw their opponent off a cliff, into a trap or into a wall for a free top heavy.

Somi your idea for GB being like soul calibers' is unique and interesting, but I fear it may be too much of an overhaul to implement it in 4h :p

S0Mi_xD
10-03-2017, 11:41 AM
I feel that if every class had it's own unique punish for Parry, it will open the game up to more exploitation. Some punishes are bound to come up better than others, and the punishes that translate to raw damage could continue to be abused just as Parry > Free heavy is abused now.

That's why i think parry should cost stamina as well, to reduce the abuse of it - even if parry would give no free dmg at all.

The parry punish for every hero, would be more even out the dmg output of a parry for all classes, but it would still leave the option to just turtle with the small dmg . . .



I honestly feel that Parry, even if it didn't have any guaranteed follow up attacks, could still be a very viable tool for those with the skill to use it. If you're skilled enough to consistently pull off Parry's, it's favourable to use it over blocking as it drains the enemies stamina and means you don't take any chip damage. It also has the added possibility to stagger an enemy into a wall (for a justified, situational free heavy), off a ledge, or into one of the enemies team mates. It also gives you the initiative for the next attack, making it a bit harder for your opponent to react in time. In my mind this is reward enough for something that is essentially only a shade more difficult to do than blocking.

I have been a fan of the idea, that parry doesn't give any free dmg from the beginning - but you know to achive that, they would also need to take away the parry punish of those classes that already have one.
On the other side, a huge part of the community will be pissed really hard - and you know what ignorant people we have >.>

Parry would be great as an only defensive tool.
- no free dmg, no parry punish etc.
- only stamina dmg and the short stagger to turn the the wind of the fight
- and a stamina cost for parries would limit the amount of use

But i don't believe that they would make it this way - even if the only "hard" part is to remove the parry counters of the movesets of those 4 heros.

Another idea i had loong ago, is to make parry similar to lawbringers shove.
- you can't block or parry a parry follow up light attack, only dodge it

S0Mi_xD
10-03-2017, 11:44 AM
Having a guaranteed Light attack for GB makes sense to me. Light attacks have a pretty high chance to land anyway, I land many more of them than I do successful guard breaks. So granting a free light once in guard break would allow players to get a combo started, or they can opt to throw their opponent off a cliff, into a trap or into a wall for a free top heavy.

But only a light of a Gb would be in favor of heroes with double lights ^^ and you would lose the overall "killing blow" on the last 25 hp bar.




Somi your idea for GB being like soul calibers' is unique and interesting, but I fear it may be too much of an overhaul to implement it in 4h :p

I know - just let me dream xDD ;P

Netcode_err_404
10-03-2017, 12:39 PM
The game is built around parries and GB, you cannot change these 2 aspects without making it broken in another aspects.


Without free Gb after parry dominion is unplayable, it takes ages to kill just one dude, and ganking becomes even more powerfull.


If you make parries not granting a light or a GB, they would become useless, and the game would become a r1 spam fest ( even more than now).

If you make parries not granting a GB, GB would become useless, because its almost impossible landing one inneutral occasions.



The game is "unique" and theconsequence is that it is broken, and bad designed in the first place.


At this point im not expecting anything, but im still curios about 8 months of "collecting data" what will look like at the end.

PDXGorechild
10-03-2017, 01:01 PM
But only a light of a Gb would be in favor of heroes with double lights ^^ and you would lose the overall "killing blow" on the last 25 hp bar.

I know - just let me dream xDD ;P

OK, so classes like Orochi will benefit a bit more from a GB with their high damage, double top light. I don't think it would be hugely imbalanced but I can see it being abused. Orochi's in Tournaments spamming GB > Top light only could be prolific. I don't know the answer to this, other than reworking the classes with the double lights or making it so GB gives no free attacks at all, unless you throw your opponent into a wall, then you get a top heavy. These keeps it situational and if you get spammed by it repeatedly you only really have yourself to blame for standing next to walls all the time.

I guess the latter of those two options is preferable and requires less work to implement.




Parry would be great as an only defensive tool.
- no free dmg, no parry punish etc.
- only stamina dmg and the short stagger to turn the the wind of the fight
- and a stamina cost for parries would limit the amount of use.

This is what I'd like to see.


The game is built around parries and GB, you cannot change these 2 aspects without making it broken in another aspects.


Without free Gb after parry dominion is unplayable, it takes ages to kill just one dude, and ganking becomes even more powerfull.


If you make parries not granting a light or a GB, they would become useless, and the game would become a r1 spam fest ( even more than now).

If you make parries not granting a GB, GB would become useless, because its almost impossible landing one inneutral occasions.



The game is "unique" and theconsequence is that it is broken, and bad designed in the first place.


At this point im not expecting anything, but im still curios about 8 months of "collecting data" what will look like at the end.

I can't help but feel most of your posts are overly negative, Error0004000025;12980985. I can't agree with you that the whole game is built around parries and GB. These mechanics are only usually abused in 1v1 scenarios. Saying dominion is unplayable without a parry punish is a very extreme point of view. I've played plenty of a great dominion games where players haven't abused parry punish.

GB would not be useless if it still allowed you to throw people off or into things and to mess up peoples flow. It would be used much less, yes, but I see that as a good thing.

Yes the game is unique, and Ubi have a long road ahead in refining it into a more balanced game. But that's what you get when you have a highly dynamic PvP game with 16+ classes running around in an open environment.

Netcode_err_404
10-03-2017, 01:10 PM
OK, so classes like Orochi will benefit a bit more from a GB with their high damage, double top light. I don't think it would be hugely imbalanced but I can see it being abused. Orochi's in Tournaments spamming GB > Top light only could be prolific. I don't know the answer to this, other than reworking the classes with the double lights or making it so GB gives no free attacks at all, unless you throw your opponent into a wall, then you get a top heavy. These keeps it situational and if you get spammed by it repeatedly you only really have yourself to blame for standing next to walls all the time.

I guess the latter of those two options is preferable and requires less work to implement.



This is what I'd like to see.



I can't help but feel most of your posts are overly negative, Error0004000025;12980985. I can't agree with you that the whole game is built around parries and GB. These mechanics are only usually abused in 1v1 scenarios. Saying dominion is unplayable without a parry punish is a very extreme point of view. I've played plenty of a great dominion games where players haven't abused parry punish.

GB would not be useless if it still allowed you to throw people off or into things and to mess up peoples flow. It would be used much less, yes, but I see that as a good thing.

Yes the game is unique, and Ubi have a long road ahead in refining it into a more balanced game. But that's what you get when you have a highly dynamic PvP game with 16+ classes running around in an open environment.

Parry is not something you can abuse, unless you are playing extremely predictable, which is your only fault.

Killing fast one guy with a parry is mandatory in dominion when 1 or more ppl are running towards you. I've played in ptr, and dominion without parries and gb, is unplayable. Everyone go pk or rorchi, spam the hell out of them, without even worrying about consequences, because there were none. A simple 17 damage light with the low risk involved in spamming pk and orochi zones..


Not to mention that you cannot survive any 1vX because revenge is not powerfull enough to make you stand a chance if you cannot punish ppl with parries. So gank squad would be even more deadly and even 1v2 would be impossible to sustain.


Also, there is a diference between negative, and realist. For the actual state of the game theres very little to be positive about. I've seen early access more stable and less bugged than FH, from indie studios.

S0Mi_xD
10-03-2017, 01:40 PM
Parry is not something you can abuse, unless you are playing extremely predictable, which is your only fault.

Killing fast one guy with a parry is mandatory in dominion when 1 or more ppl are running towards you. I've played in ptr, and dominion without parries and gb, is unplayable. Everyone go pk or rorchi, spam the hell out of them, without even worrying about consequences, because there were none. A simple 17 damage light with the low risk involved in spamming pk and orochi zones..


Not to mention that you cannot survive any 1vX because revenge is not powerfull enough to make you stand a chance if you cannot punish ppl with parries. So gank squad would be even more deadly and even 1v2 would be impossible to sustain.


Also, there is a diference between negative, and realist. For the actual state of the game theres very little to be positive about. I've seen early access more stable and less bugged than FH, from indie studios.

You and a realist? Gore pinned you down pretty well with the pessimistic attitude, like centurion an enemy after a wallsplatt.

But aside this - it always sounds like "i am the one and only chosen who played the ptr - i know what i am talking about"
Also, your opinion about the consol version is really in a wrong - you are saying it is trash, just because of the fps difference, that doesn't even makes it so much different.
Just a PC average player who feels superior to consol players, but can't handle dominon without GBs and parries that give free dmg.

If you would think realistic,
- you would realise that in a 1vX situation you won't really have the chance to hit this free dmg from a parry anyways
- Parry in revenge knocks down enemies, so it is and will be usefull anyways if you find youself in 1vX situations
- If parry gives no rewards, people will block more -> chip dmg
- but parries help to trigger revenge earlier
- i don't exactly get what is wrong with "light spam" especially with orochi and pk, they do it currently as well, light spammers are easy to predict, block one light attack in a gank and you will block most others as well

At least we try to think in a constructive way - not like you trash talking everything - even if def meta changes will come and the kensei buff, you won't be satisfied anyways.

That's a lost case.

PDXGorechild
10-03-2017, 02:07 PM
Parry is not something you can abuse, unless you are playing extremely predictable, which is your only fault.

Killing fast one guy with a parry is mandatory in dominion when 1 or more ppl are running towards you. I've played in ptr, and dominion without parries and gb, is unplayable. Everyone go pk or rorchi, spam the hell out of them, without even worrying about consequences, because there were none. A simple 17 damage light with the low risk involved in spamming pk and orochi zones..


Not to mention that you cannot survive any 1vX because revenge is not powerfull enough to make you stand a chance if you cannot punish ppl with parries. So gank squad would be even more deadly and even 1v2 would be impossible to sustain.


Also, there is a diference between negative, and realist. For the actual state of the game theres very little to be positive about. I've seen early access more stable and less bugged than FH, from indie studios.

By abusing Parry I mean some players will only attack after a parry or GB, i.e turtle meta fiends. As said before this is mainly a problem in 1v1 scenarios, with the tournament mode being the worst. It forces the match into a state where heavy attacks are never thrown for fear of punishment, light attacks are spammed, feinting becomes almost mandatory and cheesy tactics become rife because it simply isn't safe to play your class how you would normally. Perhaps other classes don't experience this as much, but as a Berserker main it makes high level 1v1 so boring for me that i've stopped playing it altogether.

I still can't see how killing one enemy fast with a parry is a staple or applicable to most scenarios in dominion unless you're playing Centurion, which is a bullsh*t class from the ground up and needs to be removed ideally anyway. Contrary to your argument, I find it is ME being parried or guard broken in 1vX scenarios that results in the most ganking. Having that second or two of vulnerability against several players if one of them parries me is usually a death sentence, especially as an Assassin. If I manage to avoid being parried or guard broken I often do pretty well in 1vX whilst using neither of those mechanics myself. I simply use dodging around and positioning myself so I never get caught in the middle of multiple enemies, chaining attacks between opponents, using the odd GB > Throw into another enemy, etc.

What platform are you on? I very rarely see bugs day to day playing on PS4. The only noticeable issue is the disconnects, which have been getting gradually better... think i've had a couple in the last week.

Gastgrinder
10-03-2017, 11:48 PM
Neither Parry or GB should guarantee any free attacks:

parry should remove the opponent's endurance to gain an offensive advantage.

GB should be there to throw an opponent against a wall or somewhere down.

then there would be no problems with turtle defense meta and GB spam.
my opinion

Netcode_err_404
10-04-2017, 12:16 AM
You and a realist? Gore pinned you down pretty well with the pessimistic attitude, like centurion an enemy after a wallsplatt.

But aside this - it always sounds like "i am the one and only chosen who played the ptr - i know what i am talking about"
Also, your opinion about the consol version is really in a wrong - you are saying it is trash, just because of the fps difference, that doesn't even makes it so much different.
Just a PC average player who feels superior to consol players, but can't handle dominon without GBs and parries that give free dmg.

If you would think realistic,
- you would realise that in a 1vX situation you won't really have the chance to hit this free dmg from a parry anyways
- Parry in revenge knocks down enemies, so it is and will be usefull anyways if you find youself in 1vX situations
- If parry gives no rewards, people will block more -> chip dmg
- but parries help to trigger revenge earlier
- i don't exactly get what is wrong with "light spam" especially with orochi and pk, they do it currently as well, light spammers are easy to predict, block one light attack in a gank and you will block most others as well

At least we try to think in a constructive way - not like you trash talking everything - even if def meta changes will come and the kensei buff, you won't be satisfied anyways.

That's a lost case.



1) FALSE
2)Revenge is not something you always have, especially with non geared toons.
3)Chip dmg is something should exist from closed alpha.
4)People already block too much, thats the turtle meta my naive friend.
5)Sure, in which universe ?

Thres nothig to trash talk actually, the state of this game NOW in october, when the game came out in february is completely unacceptable. I dare you to find one person that will tell us that is absolutely legit. Recently disney reactivated a star wars game mad ein 2004. 20x times moire stable than FH.

Console version is trash, cutting half fps, in this game is absurd, tekken 7 kept 60 fps at least. And thats why it is superior.

UbiJurassic
10-04-2017, 01:56 AM
A great topic for a thread. We'll certainly keep our eyes on the results of the poll and will forward everyone's feedback on it.

PDXGorechild
10-04-2017, 08:47 AM
Neither Parry or GB should guarantee any free attacks:

parry should remove the opponent's endurance to gain an offensive advantage.

GB should be there to throw an opponent against a wall or somewhere down.

then there would be no problems with turtle defense meta and GB spam.
my opinion

Agree.


1) FALSE
2)Revenge is not something you always have, especially with non geared toons.
3)Chip dmg is something should exist from closed alpha.
4)People already block too much, thats the turtle meta my naive friend.
5)Sure, in which universe ?

Thres nothig to trash talk actually, the state of this game NOW in october, when the game came out in february is completely unacceptable. I dare you to find one person that will tell us that is absolutely legit. Recently disney reactivated a star wars game mad ein 2004. 20x times moire stable than FH.

Console version is trash, cutting half fps, in this game is absurd, tekken 7 kept 60 fps at least. And thats why it is superior.

Parry is not an essential tool for 1vX scenarios. If you'd like i'll upload some videos of 1vX where I don't parry once, barely even blocking. Dodging and positioning is a far more useful tool for survival when surrounded by players. Anecdotal evidence of you playing PT servers claiming dominion is "Unplayable" without the current GB and Parry doesn't cut it for me. I've been playing dominion daily since release with a trash tier class and barely use these mechanics, save opportunistically, still topping the scoreboard most games.

Blocking isn't the main cause of the turtle meta. The fact you can get guaranteed attacks from defensive moves like parry is. If these mechanics weren't in place, people would only block as a last resort, and would actually have to launch attacks to cause damage, lest they sit there taking chip damage forever.

Console version still seems pretty mad fun to me. I'm glad you've found another game to enjoy, and sorry that you see 4H so negatively, but there are still a lot of us enjoying it and seeing huge potential.


A great topic for a thread. We'll certainly keep our eyes on the results of the poll and will forward everyone's feedback on it.

Thanks man. Aside from Centurion Nerfs, changes to GB and Parry have been the most eagerly anticipated for me.

Aarpian
10-04-2017, 01:09 PM
Get rid of parries on assassins - they should use deflect instead. Having both parry and deflect will always make one redundant.

Nerf deflect damage and make combo chains that start with deflect

Nerf sideways dodge-attack damage - safer than a deflect but vulnerable to feint>parry. Tighten the input window so you can't option-select deflect/dodgeattack and react to a feint>GB

Nerf parry to guarantee a light

GB should be untechable and guarantee a light or a throw

Vastly expand combo sets so that the next attack is usually variable, rather than almost always predictable, and put in many more mid-combo soft-feints

Speed up most unblockable swings so they're not all parry-bait

Stop lights being interrupted on block

Increase the speed of all melee attacks that come off of a dodge

Alternatively - make blocking cost stamina and remove the stamina cost on nearly all offensive actions which connect with an opponent. Right now stamina serves only to gate aggression, but it's defence that needs to be limited in its effectiveness.

gj4063
10-04-2017, 02:56 PM
Is this an agree that gb and parry are broke thread ore are you actually interested in other opinions?

ThomHermans1
10-04-2017, 02:59 PM
I believe there are really easy fixes to demote the defensive meta.

GB
GB>Light
This should be a guaranteed attack with a fixed damage for all the classes. Bypassing gear stats. Double lights should not be possible.

GB>Heavy
This should be deleted from the game. This, imo, is the major problem of the defensive meta. Parry>GB>Heavy or Enemy-dodge>GB>Heavy is just too easy and strong. The only plus that I can think of is you can get a cool execution easily.

GB>Wallsplat(mansplat)>(top)Heavy
This should stay in the game. This will promote positioning and awareness of your surroundings which I think is a good thing.

Parry
Parry>GB
Iím not sure if this should be removed or stay. I personally think it should stay since GB>Heavy is not a thing anymore I personly like to use the walls and such for damage

Parry>Combo
I think the parry combos should stay.

Parry properties
I think that parry should remove stamina from the attacker and heal the defender. The HP you get is the same as if you kill a minion with the feat(canít remember the feat name).

Defense
HP
HP should not regenerate when you are in combat (locked on) and it should take a while out of combat to activate. The way you gain HP in combat is with a parry

Blocking
Blocking should give you chip damage and a (small) stamina loss on heavies. This will promote the use of parry and thus opening up the defender. Chip damage should not kill but with no HP regen you could keep the defender at 1 HP where 1 mistake will kill them. If they keep blocking they will run out Oos.

mrmistark
10-04-2017, 04:41 PM
Not a bad thread ladies and gents. Interesting thoughts.

I personally think to change all of this as most people want, with the current mechanics, will always just create a new problems....

GB: personally, I think this should be the only instance in which a character would get a free heavy. It's honestly a very key part of certain characters playstyle and feint game and I don't really think it should be changed, rather certain characters ability to act off of or initiate said gb are more problematic: Centurion soft feints and instant gb after light is very quick, raiders pick up and run drains all stamina etc.... I'm not saying nerf these characters, but I think if we were to change the window of reaction time to be a little more forgiving with these certain custom gbs, it would be fine. All gbs in my opinion regardless of positioning within chains or gb abilities should offer the same time to react (this means same anaimation time for all characters) and only a standard side heavy or a throw with no additional properties: such as the raider run where an action may be performed after the gb that still offers only a heavy in end state, but drains a substantial amount of enemy stamina. This heavy unless in mid chain as described in the heros move set, should also not offer any other benifits such as lawbringer with his shove, valk with her shield bash etc. this would prevent extensive wall splats and encourage only the continuation of attacks within a specified attack chain. One heavy is fair honestly. Standard gbs can be interrupted by lights and cgb and any other already initiated attack. What I do think IS broken with your typical gb is when two happen at once. The outcome is always iffy. Sometimes they bounce off each other which is perfectly fine, and sometimes despite being the exact same timing someone always gets it. This needs fixing. If either character even starts the animation while the other is coming in, neither player should be experiencing a successful gb unless the window for a cgb has past obviously.

PARRY: Parry is a bigger issue. If we stop any action after parry, then everyone will run assassins or HL to supplement free damage anyways. Instead of what we call a defensive meta we will end up with a deflect meta. Granted deflects are more difficult, but still offer a substantial reward in many cases. I honestly think any light attack when parried should offer only a light attack or be removed completely as nothing on either side has really been overly committed. I think heavy parry is fine where it is honestly but again should not offer any special follow up. It offers a standard heavy after gb, a little stronger punish against OOS or if you're in revenge, and overall is pretty balanced. If you played on console where light parrying is very difficult, you will notice that parrying as a whole is pretty well balanced.

And the one thing no one really mentioned here but is very much a big part of the turtle meta:

BLOCKING: Again I think that characters that have a follow up to a block: lawbringer shove, conq free gb on heavy block etc. should not be guaranteed. I think every character should have a standard reflex guard as well. Leaving guard in a certain direction should not block all incoming attacks from that side, the guard should go back to a neutral position and block on responsive reaction.

Just my thoughts, some may not be popular, but I just hope this provides an interesting perspective at the very least. If you took the time to read this I appreciate it.

Netcode_err_404
10-04-2017, 04:57 PM
Agree.



Parry is not an essential tool for 1vX scenarios. If you'd like i'll upload some videos of 1vX where I don't parry once, barely even blocking. Dodging and positioning is a far more useful tool for survival when surrounded by players. Anecdotal evidence of you playing PT servers claiming dominion is "Unplayable" without the current GB and Parry doesn't cut it for me. I've been playing dominion daily since release with a trash tier class and barely use these mechanics, save opportunistically, still topping the scoreboard most games.

Blocking isn't the main cause of the turtle meta. The fact you can get guaranteed attacks from defensive moves like parry is. If these mechanics weren't in place, people would only block as a last resort, and would actually have to launch attacks to cause damage, lest they sit there taking chip damage forever.

Console version still seems pretty mad fun to me. I'm glad you've found another game to enjoy, and sorry that you see 4H so negatively, but there are still a lot of us enjoying it and seeing huge potential.



Thanks man. Aside from Centurion Nerfs, changes to GB and Parry have been the most eagerly anticipated for me.


Right now you can parry > ledge for easy and quick kills, that will help you not getting outnumbered.
Back in ptr without this mechanic, killing one guy ( who is not a comp'lete trash can) requires double the time. And gank suqds, are even more deadly. Because you no langer have acess at some nasty parry punishments extremely good in 1v2

brashtralas
10-04-2017, 09:41 PM
Get rid of parries on assassins - they should use deflect instead. Having both parry and deflect will always make one redundant.

Nerf deflect damage and make combo chains that start with deflect

Nerf sideways dodge-attack damage - safer than a deflect but vulnerable to feint>parry. Tighten the input window so you can't option-select deflect/dodgeattack and react to a feint>GB

Nerf parry to guarantee a light

GB should be untechable and guarantee a light or a throw

Vastly expand combo sets so that the next attack is usually variable, rather than almost always predictable, and put in many more mid-combo soft-feints

Speed up most unblockable swings so they're not all parry-bait

Stop lights being interrupted on block

Increase the speed of all melee attacks that come off of a dodge

Alternatively - make blocking cost stamina and remove the stamina cost on nearly all offensive actions which connect with an opponent. Right now stamina serves only to gate aggression, but it's defence that needs to be limited in its effectiveness.

I like almost all of this, except you last paragraph. Why? Because making block consume stamina also puts a gate on offense.

When a fast character is pelting you with attacks and your stamina is draining, you donít get the opportunity to counter, since you donít have any stamina.

MadeArtifact
10-04-2017, 10:08 PM
Need to get rid of the blocking everything at least in dual and brawl. 4 on 4 I would say ok .

Howard_T_J
10-04-2017, 10:53 PM
Yeah if there was no parry. LOL Orochi would be op. All my predictable moves = no punishment.

I do believe you shouldn't be able to GB a Reflex defense. My sword is literally pointed at your chest.

And in return reflex defense is not capable of performing a GB. Maybe a small debuff move that can be countered by a CGB.

Parry I can't complain. I think its in a good place for now.

I do really like how if someone is GBing you. You can punish with a light attack. Dont know if it works for other classes. But works well for Orochi

AzureSky.
10-04-2017, 11:06 PM
I'm sure changes are on the way, and I imagine at this stage that whatever is being said on the forums about the matter will make no difference, but i'm getting impatient and wanted to see what you lot think.

Parry and Guard break are the two main components of the "Defensive Meta" play style. That is, that they both guarantee a heavy attack when pulled off with no fear of consequence. This means that in duels or tournaments especially, a fighting game with a dazzling array of attacks and combo's is essentially reduced to Parry > guard break > heavy > feint > guard break > heavy > Parry > heavy > etc.

I've always felt like it seizes the game up and makes it boring. I've played opponents who have been able to repeat this cycle on me expertly, never taking the risk to throw an attack, killing me entirely with heavy attacks that were guaranteed to land. Whilst I enjoy the flavour these mechanics give to the game, I don't like feeling out of control of my character in a fighting game, and I suspect most players will agree with me.

So here's a list of options i've compiled - let's see which is the most popular.

EDIT: If you're confused at the terminology, Guaranteed attacks are ones that cannot be defended against, no matter how fast you react, your character will not react in time. These changes are assuming the other aspects of each mechanic remain the same, that is, Parry drains stamina and staggers and GB allows people to be thrown off cliffs/into walls. Wallsplat still works.

IF you get into the heavy feint into guard break you are being outplayed, simple as that, you are trying to parry, hence you are part of the problem, not the solution, i recommend training and getting gud, also you can parry light and dont make it on heavys, easy fix.

Aarpian
10-05-2017, 12:28 PM
I like almost all of this, except you last paragraph. Why? Because making block consume stamina also puts a gate on offense.

When a fast character is pelting you with attacks and your stamina is draining, you donít get the opportunity to counter, since you donít have any stamina.

Yeah that's my issue with just adding stamina costs onto blocking, which is why I suggest removing the stamina cost from offence, so that as long as you don't get bullied into being out-of-stamina entirely by repeatedly blocking, you can counter-attack if you create an opening.

PDXGorechild
10-05-2017, 12:32 PM
IF you get into the heavy feint into guard break you are being outplayed, simple as that, you are trying to parry, hence you are part of the problem, not the solution, i recommend training and getting gud, also you can parry light and dont make it on heavys, easy fix.

I don't parry as a rule. I can do it, and sometimes I do when i'll probably end up dead otherwise, but I never sit waiting to parry as I honestly just don't get any pleasure out of turtling up and using guaranteed heavies from parries as my main source of damage.

I already got good, by no means an pro, but the whole point of this thread is that I feel these mechanics make the game boring seeing as they can be abused so easily.

Netcode_err_404
10-05-2017, 02:27 PM
IF you get into the heavy feint into guard break you are being outplayed, simple as that, you are trying to parry, hence you are part of the problem, not the solution, i recommend training and getting gud, also you can parry light and dont make it on heavys, easy fix.

No.

If you get Heavyfeint into GB means you are playing a slow class.

PDXGorechild
10-05-2017, 03:27 PM
Right now you can parry > ledge for easy and quick kills, that will help you not getting outnumbered.
Back in ptr without this mechanic, killing one guy ( who is not a comp'lete trash can) requires double the time. And gank suqds, are even more deadly. Because you no langer have acess at some nasty parry punishments extremely good in 1v2

I never suggested taking Parry > Ledge/wallsplat away. This is something that could be left in if guaranteed attacks were taken away from parry, allowing for quick kills in 1vX without impacting 1v1 duels massively. If you're rolling with a Warlord or Cent with more rewarding parry punishes that help you to survive 1vX, that's a benefit of that particular class, not a fundamental game issue. Still not getting how taking away guaranteed attacks from parry is going to mess up your anti-gank tactics as much as you're making out man.


Not a bad thread ladies and gents. Interesting thoughts.

I personally think to change all of this as most people want, with the current mechanics, will always just create a new problems....

GB: personally, I think this should be the only instance in which a character would get a free heavy. It's honestly a very key part of certain characters playstyle and feint game and I don't really think it should be changed, rather certain characters ability to act off of or initiate said gb are more problematic: Centurion soft feints and instant gb after light is very quick, raiders pick up and run drains all stamina etc.... I'm not saying nerf these characters, but I think if we were to change the window of reaction time to be a little more forgiving with these certain custom gbs, it would be fine. All gbs in my opinion regardless of positioning within chains or gb abilities should offer the same time to react (this means same anaimation time for all characters) and only a standard side heavy or a throw with no additional properties: such as the raider run where an action may be performed after the gb that still offers only a heavy in end state, but drains a substantial amount of enemy stamina. This heavy unless in mid chain as described in the heros move set, should also not offer any other benifits such as lawbringer with his shove, valk with her shield bash etc. this would prevent extensive wall splats and encourage only the continuation of attacks within a specified attack chain. One heavy is fair honestly. Standard gbs can be interrupted by lights and cgb and any other already initiated attack. What I do think IS broken with your typical gb is when two happen at once. The outcome is always iffy. Sometimes they bounce off each other which is perfectly fine, and sometimes despite being the exact same timing someone always gets it. This needs fixing. If either character even starts the animation while the other is coming in, neither player should be experiencing a successful gb unless the window for a cgb has past obviously.

PARRY: Parry is a bigger issue. If we stop any action after parry, then everyone will run assassins or HL to supplement free damage anyways. Instead of what we call a defensive meta we will end up with a deflect meta. Granted deflects are more difficult, but still offer a substantial reward in many cases. I honestly think any light attack when parried should offer only a light attack or be removed completely as nothing on either side has really been overly committed. I think heavy parry is fine where it is honestly but again should not offer any special follow up. It offers a standard heavy after gb, a little stronger punish against OOS or if you're in revenge, and overall is pretty balanced. If you played on console where light parrying is very difficult, you will notice that parrying as a whole is pretty well balanced.

And the one thing no one really mentioned here but is very much a big part of the turtle meta:

BLOCKING: Again I think that characters that have a follow up to a block: lawbringer shove, conq free gb on heavy block etc. should not be guaranteed. I think every character should have a standard reflex guard as well. Leaving guard in a certain direction should not block all incoming attacks from that side, the guard should go back to a neutral position and block on responsive reaction.

Just my thoughts, some may not be popular, but I just hope this provides an interesting perspective at the very least. If you took the time to read this I appreciate it.

With regards to your comments about Parry, the Assassins would get a bit of an indirect buff if the defensive meta was fixed. Most of them need it, other than the two on the Knights side anyway. Of course free attacks from Deflects would need to be looked at to make sure they are fair if it's taken away from parry. Cross that bridge when we come to it. As a Berserker, Orochi or Shinobi though, it may give us the edge we need to actually be competitive. Parrying a light attack on console is very difficult, I could live with them giving you a free light for doing so. I can't ever condone a free heavy in my mind though..

GB will still be spammed if you get a free heavy, especially if free GB after parry remains. I just think GB should be more of a utility tool than a means of free damage all the time. It would get used less, and players would be less prepared for it. This means that when you do spot that your opponent is next to a wall, or an ally, or a ledge, you're more likely to get the opportunity to guard break and throw them into/off it for a quick kill or a top heavy. This keeps it opportunistic, still an interesting little mechanic in the game to look out for and be wary of, but not the bread and butter of most duels where most of the fight is spent trying to distract your enemy enough to pull off a GB for free damage!

Am I the only one who thinks this would be better?! Perhaps i'm out of touch. Just seems like the game would flow a lot better to me. How many epic melee battles in star wars, game of thrones or lord of the rings consisted of warriors batting each others hands out of the way and swinging a hit whilst the other person stands staring into the sky like a hapless moron, over and over again?

Having got used to Reflex guard I think it makes a lot more sense and would be interesting to see what it was like if every class had it. Doubt that'll ever happen though...

S0Mi_xD
10-05-2017, 03:30 PM
Get rid of parries on assassins - they should use deflect instead. Having both parry and deflect will always make one redundant.

Nerf deflect damage and make combo chains that start with deflect

Nerf sideways dodge-attack damage - safer than a deflect but vulnerable to feint>parry. Tighten the input window so you can't option-select deflect/dodgeattack and react to a feint>GB

Nerf parry to guarantee a light

GB should be untechable and guarantee a light or a throw

Vastly expand combo sets so that the next attack is usually variable, rather than almost always predictable, and put in many more mid-combo soft-feints

Speed up most unblockable swings so they're not all parry-bait

Stop lights being interrupted on block

Increase the speed of all melee attacks that come off of a dodge

Alternatively - make blocking cost stamina and remove the stamina cost on nearly all offensive actions which connect with an opponent. Right now stamina serves only to gate aggression, but it's defence that needs to be limited in its effectiveness.

1. No parries for assassin - i do understand where this ideas comes from, and i would support this - but for this you need to rework the assassins in general .
- assassins will have problems with Unblockables (you can't deflect them )
- dodging is much to dangerous because you can't CGB (tech a GB) while dodging
- it will be pretty easy to bait them

2. Nerfing dmg and making them chain starter? As someone who claims that every attack and chain is pretty much useless because it is easy to defend against it (parry or just block), you now come with this ....
Result = NO assassin will EVER deflect again NEVER

3. If assassin lose parry a only light on parries will still be superior with warden, centurion, shugoki - parry counter of shinobi and glad can be trashed.
(If they would trash parry counters, they could do it with cent and warlord as well, and just guarantee no dmg on parries and make it defensive)

4. GB untechable`? The way it currently works? GG everybody will GB only - - - you are welcome to throw-up (pun inteded)

5. Expanding chain sets is a good thing, but it doesn't need much - Heroes like Valk or Warlord need one or 2 chains more.
Mid combo soft faints more of them? Mhh... not sure about this, then why do we would need hardfeint? Softfeints are mostly unique abilites of some heroes, Like Heavy into GB(pk and cent), or dodge softfeint (Berserker), celtic curse of highlander.

6. speed up unblockables swing will only make them more annoying and impossible to deal against with assassins (if you would the first change). I do understand you that you want them to not be easy baits, but then you need to reduce the feint window of them or speed them up AND make all unblockables unfeintable. But making them unfaintable will make them easier to parry, and in some chases just annoying.

7. Light attacks not interrupted by blocks... is possible but would open up a world of light spam, if you would take sup block against light completly (i have a better solution for this)

8. . . . whšt `?! increase the speed of all melee attacks that are utilized out of a dodge? . . . Yeah - melee spam wooohooo.

9. Blocks instead of attacks cost stamina - i already gave my opinion on this some time ago.
It would change NOTHING, it would be the same thing only mirrored.

The MAIN GOAL is to balance defense and offense out, and not destroying defense completely like you suggest.
Seriously 90% of your points will not work, and are just thoughts spit out in the moment they came to you.

they could work if you would do a new game, but with the current FH setup it will make it much worse, and especially it would completly destory assassin (reading this somehow seems like you hate assassins )

For a long time FH competitive player you really suggesting things without binding them into the game and think about how they would impact the game.

To sum up my thoughts on this - this must be a joke.



I like almost all of this, except you last paragraph. Why? Because making block consume stamina also puts a gate on offense.

When a fast character is pelting you with attacks and your stamina is draining, you don’t get the opportunity to counter, since you don’t have any stamina.

good point on the stamina consumption switching from attack to block.

I disagree very much with most of his points ^^

S0Mi_xD
10-05-2017, 03:47 PM
Yeah that's my issue with just adding stamina costs onto blocking, which is why I suggest removing the stamina cost from offence, so that as long as you don't get bullied into being out-of-stamina entirely by repeatedly blocking, you can counter-attack if you create an opening.

So how do you want to create an opening without sup block against light?

With this suggestion you just spinning in circles, this would make the game worse.

S0Mi_xD
10-05-2017, 03:55 PM
I never suggested taking Parry > Ledge/wallsplat away. This is something that could be left in if guaranteed attacks were taken away from parry, allowing for quick kills in 1vX without impacting 1v1 duels massively. If you're rolling with a Warlord or Cent with more rewarding parry punishes that help you to survive 1vX, that's a benefit of that particular class, not a fundamental game issue. Still not getting how taking away guaranteed attacks from parry is going to mess up your anti-gank tactics as much as you're making out man.


The parry animation looks like a "throw", you block the attack and redirect it.

If this "throw would knock down enemies of ledged, splatt against walls and against enemies, this would be a great buff for parries in general, and we could take away any guaranteed dmg from parries.

But then there would be still the parry counter of the Warlord, Cent, Shinobi, Glad - remove them, or give every hero such a move ? I actually don't know.

InebriatedPalm
10-05-2017, 04:27 PM
Why don't we just get rid of guard break after parry?

why not keep these two things seperate, because right now it seems like the ideal wet dream for turtles is a parry into a guard break wall splat and then top heavy.

you can get a ledge, wall splat, wall spike, side heavy, any light with a guard break
you can get a side heavy, top heavy (in some circumstances), any direction light with a parry

so it seems a bit redundant to have a parry lead into a guard break for what often times seems like double the reward.

might not be the best solution or the be all end all fix for the meta but it might be a step in the right direction.

mrmistark
10-05-2017, 05:02 PM
With regards to your comments about Parry, the Assassins would get a bit of an indirect buff if the defensive meta was fixed. Most of them need it, other than the two on the Knights side anyway. Of course free attacks from Deflects would need to be looked at to make sure they are fair if it's taken away from parry. Cross that bridge when we come to it. As a Berserker, Orochi or Shinobi though, it may give us the edge we need to actually be competitive. Parrying a light attack on console is very difficult, I could live with them giving you a free light for doing so. I can't ever condone a free heavy in my mind though..

GB will still be spammed if you get a free heavy, especially if free GB after parry remains. I just think GB should be more of a utility tool than a means of free damage all the time. It would get used less, and players would be less prepared for it. This means that when you do spot that your opponent is next to a wall, or an ally, or a ledge, you're more likely to get the opportunity to guard break and throw them into/off it for a quick kill or a top heavy. This keeps it opportunistic, still an interesting little mechanic in the game to look out for and be wary of, but not the bread and butter of most duels where most of the fight is spent trying to distract your enemy enough to pull off a GB for free damage!

Am I the only one who thinks this would be better?! Perhaps i'm out of touch. Just seems like the game would flow a lot better to me. How many epic melee battles in star wars, game of thrones or lord of the rings consisted of warriors batting each others hands out of the way and swinging a hit whilst the other person stands staring into the sky like a hapless moron, over and over again?

Having got used to Reflex guard I think it makes a lot more sense and would be interesting to see what it was like if every class had it. Doubt that'll ever happen though...

I don't understand how deflects would be buffed with my idea (parry offering only a standard heavy with no follow up other than standard attack chain, meaning no shoves or headbutt etc.) if the standard heavy would deal more damage unless you can consistently deflect light attacks? This at least on console is not that easy.

I think the biggest problem everyone is constantly throwing out there is the whole "free" in regards to gb. Free would be considered for instance HL kick guaranteeing a light, Warden with a guaranteed top heavy from wall splat etc. the act of gb itself, despite giving free damage if successful, is not free by any means other than after parry unless you run the likes of conq who gets one after a blocked heavy. If gb was ALWAYS set to a basic standard of conisistent and unchanging window to counter or attack then it would be completely fair. And again, just like with my idea for parry, if it didn't offer any follow up other than in an attack combo (no bashes, headbut etc. for more guaranteed damage) then I think the basic mechanic would be fine. The biggest problem is that for some characters that free heavy becomes a free melee into more free damage. This is where I think gb is forcing an unbalance.

TSCDescon
10-05-2017, 07:46 PM
Leave it be.

PDXGorechild
10-06-2017, 08:42 AM
I don't understand how deflects would be buffed with my idea (parry offering only a standard heavy with no follow up other than standard attack chain, meaning no shoves or headbutt etc.) if the standard heavy would deal more damage unless you can consistently deflect light attacks? This at least on console is not that easy.

I think the biggest problem everyone is constantly throwing out there is the whole "free" in regards to gb. Free would be considered for instance HL kick guaranteeing a light, Warden with a guaranteed top heavy from wall splat etc. the act of gb itself, despite giving free damage if successful, is not free by any means other than after parry unless you run the likes of conq who gets one after a blocked heavy. If gb was ALWAYS set to a basic standard of conisistent and unchanging window to counter or attack then it would be completely fair. And again, just like with my idea for parry, if it didn't offer any follow up other than in an attack combo (no bashes, headbut etc. for more guaranteed damage) then I think the basic mechanic would be fine. The biggest problem is that for some characters that free heavy becomes a free melee into more free damage. This is where I think gb is forcing an unbalance.

I mean't if parry didn't guarantee a free heavy, Berserker's free heavy from deflect ought to be taken away too, for example.

Obviously GB isn't "Free". It's a risk sometimes, but at least if I miss a block I know I only have myself to blame. But being immediately guard broken after dodge, or free GB after heavy block like on Conq for example, takes the control away from me. Suddenly i'm stood there like a melon again, unable to defend myself.



Leave it be.

Says the guy with the Centurion Avatar. Of course you want it left as-is...

Aarpian
10-06-2017, 09:50 AM
1. No parries for assassin - i do understand where this ideas comes from, and i would support this - but for this you need to rework the assassins in general .
- assassins will have problems with Unblockables (you can't deflect them )
- dodging is much to dangerous because you can't CGB (tech a GB) while dodging
- it will be pretty easy to bait them

Fair point about the unblockables, that should probably be changed.


2. Nerfing dmg and making them chain starter? As someone who claims that every attack and chain is pretty much useless because it is easy to defend against it (parry or just block), you now come with this ....
Result = NO assassin will EVER deflect again NEVER
I don't see the connection between what you're saying. Nerfing deflect damage and making it start chains stops it being an immediate, high-damage punish (and thus encouraging defensive, deflect-based, one-dimensional gameplay), but also encourages its use, because it allows you to start being offensive yourself, instead of simply hitting them for a huge chunk of damage and resetting to neutral.


3. If assassin lose parry a only light on parries will still be superior with warden, centurion, shugoki - parry counter of shinobi and glad can be trashed.
(If they would trash parry counters, they could do it with cent and warlord as well, and just guarantee no dmg on parries and make it defensive)
There's nothing wrong with a little diversity in damage outputs from parries/deflects, so long as it's a balanced part of their kit and not simply just better while they sacrifice nothing elsewhere. They're just damage numbers that can be tweaked.


4. GB untechable`? The way it currently works? GG everybody will GB only - - - you are welcome to throw-up (pun inteded)
To be more specific, it should be untechable on reaction. If you both hit it at a similar time it should bounce/get teched.
Yes, if it were the current meta and only this changed, people would spam GB, but combined with the other changes it will work, since people will be throwing attacks much more frequently, which will completely alter the risk/reward ratio of attempting a GB (it will do less damage in most cases, and you're much more likely to be hit while trying to do it).


5. Expanding chain sets is a good thing, but it doesn't need much - Heroes like Valk or Warlord need one or 2 chains more.
Mid combo soft faints more of them? Mhh... not sure about this, then why do we would need hardfeint? Softfeints are mostly unique abilites of some heroes, Like Heavy into GB(pk and cent), or dodge softfeint (Berserker), celtic curse of highlander.
Hard feints would be for attacks that can't be soft-feinted (which is something they can use to balance), and generally used for baiting attempted punishes, which is what it's meant to do now.
For the record, I think everybody should be able to soft-feint into GB, otherwise you get this weird list of moves that needs to be learned, about which heavies can be successfully feint>gb punished and which ones can't depending on which characters you're playing and which side you throw the heavies from. Feint>GB needs to be a consistent punish against parry attempts.


6. speed up unblockables swing will only make them more annoying and impossible to deal against with assassins (if you would the first change). I do understand you that you want them to not be easy baits, but then you need to reduce the feint window of them or speed them up AND make all unblockables unfeintable. But making them unfaintable will make them easier to parry, and in some chases just annoying.
An attack being unblockable should be a good thing for the person using it, not a weakness. Yes, they'll be more annoying and difficult to deal with, that's the point. If you law a lawbringer get to the unblockable swing in his combo without taking a risk in defending earlier, then you should face a punishment in the form of a more difficult attack to deal with which has a better risk/reward ratio for the attack. Currently, almost every unblockable attack is a "gotcha!" for the defender, because it's a free punish.
They should be better than regular attacks. There's no reason to buff them and then nerf them in the same breath.
To clarify, I'm not talking about melee attacks, just unblockable swings like Raider's Fury, Imperial Might, Lawbringer combo ender, Kensei top etc.



7. Light attacks not interrupted by blocks... is possible but would open up a world of light spam, if you would take sup block against light completly (i have a better solution for this)
I'm dubious when people say this. People don't spam jabs in fighting games for good reasons. Why would you spam lights when using combos offers you much more damage and is harder to defend against? If you're spamming lights, you're going to get parried or deflected, or eat a long-range attack from an opponent playing footsies.


8. . . . whšt `?! increase the speed of all melee attacks that are utilized out of a dodge? . . . Yeah - melee spam wooohooo.
Melee attacks are already garbage in this meta if they're reactable, and this is a defence meta. In a meta where people are actively looking to throw out attacks, dodging to setup a follow-up attack is a risk in itself because you're likely to get hit in the face. The use of these attacks should be when you identify that your opponent is being overly defensive, and you want to force a 50-50 onto them, like a guardbreak but with different range, rewards and reactability.


9. Blocks instead of attacks cost stamina - i already gave my opinion on this some time ago.
It would change NOTHING, it would be the same thing only mirrored.
I don't know what you're opinion on this is, and I don't see how it would be even remotely similar. Currently aggression is limited to short bursts due to stamina, and going out of stamina is a result of playing overly aggressive (or getting parried once in a lot of cases). With the change, aggression would be limited only by your opponent's ability to stop it through actively defending themselves, and going out of stamina would be a punishment for spending too long blocking and not taking proactive, interesting countermeasures to your opponent's actions.


The MAIN GOAL is to balance defense and offense out, and not destroying defense completely like you suggest.
Seriously 90% of your points will not work, and are just thoughts spit out in the moment they came to you.
Yeah nah.


they could work if you would do a new game, but with the current FH setup it will make it much worse, and especially it would completly destory assassin (reading this somehow seems like you hate assassins )
This would solve almost all of this game's long-standing issues. It wouldn't destroy assassins, and I don't hate them, I just recognise that their defensive options are actually better than everybody else's, because they can still parry, as well as being able to successfully dodge later due to deflect, and dodge-attacks make trying to feint>GB them a 50/50 for the opponent (Better players can actually dodge and then react to the GB indicator).
I want them to play distinctly like assassins; there's far too much homogenisation in this game. Just look at the health pools.


For a long time FH competitive player you really suggesting things without binding them into the game and think about how they would impact the game.
Or, consider that maybe I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and you're not thinking about the full ramifications each change would have on the others and what playstyles it encourages.






good point on the stamina consumption switching from attack to block.

I disagree very much with most of his points ^^
Not really, I already pointed out that this is only a concern if both attacking and defending costs stamina.


So how do you want to create an opening without sup block against light?
That's the whole point - be PROACTIVE. Parry, dodge, deflect or trade with armour. The problem with the game is 90% of the attacks are completely reactable and easy to block, so if you want interesting (read: aggressive) gameplay, you need to discourage it by punishing its over-use.
The goal is to make actively defending yourself necessary when faced with aggression, but not skewing the odds of victory in favour of a defender over an attacker. The fight should be jostling for position of the attacker, with defensive options rewarding you for a correct read - not by simply doing more damage than the opponent would have, but by stopping their "turn" at attacking and starting your own.