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Hristo_
03-13-2004, 04:53 AM
Got AEP finally. Took 109K for a ride. Hit P63 with at least 2 30mm rounds, one in center fuselage (near engine), one in tail. He lost tail and got an oil leak. Chased him later and hit with another 30mm, possibly even two. No visible damage.

Hit P38 with a 30mm. Oil leak. Hit it again. No visible damage.

Shouldn't 30mm be a little more potent ?

If anyone is interested, I have the track to prove it.

Hristo_
03-13-2004, 04:53 AM
Got AEP finally. Took 109K for a ride. Hit P63 with at least 2 30mm rounds, one in center fuselage (near engine), one in tail. He lost tail and got an oil leak. Chased him later and hit with another 30mm, possibly even two. No visible damage.

Hit P38 with a 30mm. Oil leak. Hit it again. No visible damage.

Shouldn't 30mm be a little more potent ?

If anyone is interested, I have the track to prove it.

LEXX_Luthor
03-13-2004, 06:55 AM
We don't know how often he/she gets one shot kills against AI P~63, if any.

__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Flamin_Squirrel
03-13-2004, 07:11 AM
All cannon seems less effective, if its because cannon powers been reduced or the planes been toughened it remains to be seen.

p1ngu666
03-13-2004, 07:27 AM
thats true
and ive always thought the 3 108 round kills a bomber ffs ;()! and 1 shot should be enuff for fight crowd prolly forget a fighter is as strong as a bomber probably :P

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Hristo_
03-13-2004, 07:37 AM
track (http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/nln3.zip)

rechecked : 3 hits on p63 on first pass from above: nose, middle fuselage, vertical stab
result: engine smoke and vertical stab off
desired effect: fireball http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

same P63 ditching minutes later: 30 mm hit in rear fuselage on first pass - no damage

missed him completely on second pass

didn't even count MG 131 hits



now comes P38...

one 30mm hit on central nacelle -> right nacelle got a fuel leak
the rest, if any, were odd MG 131 hits, no problem with those

again, should have been damaged a lot more than a lousy fuel leak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Cragger
03-13-2004, 08:19 AM
Structural failures are now less likely to occur from any damage but internal damage is the same so if you hit the fuel tanks it will still turn into a fireball as before.

http://redspar.com/redrogue/cragger_sig.png

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
03-13-2004, 08:23 AM
you can reprduce the result online too. I do not know wthether this is a Network issue but the Lightning takes a lot of punch and still flys. Even more confusing are several hits which make the plane blow smoke which immediatel ceases again.

It's just a tough bird.

Besides: an average of 3 30mm shells is enough to blow a b17.

British tests had shown the potency of the MK108 and there's no doubt that this 10mm (go read a book about kinetic energy m8) are a huge difference...

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Tue March 16 2004 at 07:45 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
03-13-2004, 08:32 AM
20mm is not 2x 10mm. Sorry.
Take the ratio of sizes and CUBE that for a rough good guess. 20mm / 12.5mm = 1.6 1.6^3 = 4.096 so for 20mm compared to 12.5 a good APPROXIMATE is 4x. When you add high explosives then it becomes a matter of where the charge goes off but still unless you're trying to pierce thick armor from a distance the HE is generally a multiplier.

Edit: Still I'd expect that 4 12.5 holes is going to be worse than 1 20mm hole!

Still some people think a 30mm should be the same as a 75mm to 90mm it seems, or at least as much as a handgrenade. Sorry, even a small one of those is 60mm.


Neal

Hristo_
03-13-2004, 08:39 AM
typical 20mm HE round has about 10 grams of high explosive

an MG 151/20 mm M Geschoss round has 18-20 grams of hgh explosive

an MK 108 30mm round has M Geschoss has about 75 grams of high explosive

a modern hand grenade has 75-100 grams of high explosive

http://www.bf109.com/images/bf109cartsw.jpg

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

[This message was edited by Hristo_ on Sat March 13 2004 at 08:02 AM.]

VO101__Kurfurst
03-13-2004, 09:02 AM
Be sure to check with what type of shell you hit the plane.

There was two types used for the MK 108, in 50%-50% composition : High Capacity Explosive (aka Minengeschoss), that is what basically vaporizes the plane.

The other was Incendirary shell, it contained NO explosives, but a LARGE amount of burning mixture, which guearanteed setting the plane on fire if you hit the fuel tank. It was used because it was very effective vs. large fuel tanks in bomber wings.. however, structural damage it made was not any tougher than a 20mm cannon round.

It is possible you keep hitting the plane with the Incendiary round, but the explosive shells miss it.

You can check out which one hits. Turn Arcade = 1 in conf.ini, you will see hit damage with arrows on planes.

If you hit plane with explosive shells, it will look like a hedgehog... a lot of damage done. But with other round, there are only few arrows (arrows mean fragments, explosive force etc., ie. damage)

Please check to avoid false alarms.

noshens
03-13-2004, 09:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
No changes there.
Really guns and cannons are modelled already so good that we will not almost change it even in the next sim and will take the code for FB/AEP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by yay1 on Sat March 13 2004 at 08:34 AM.]

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Tue March 16 2004 at 07:51 AM.]

VO101__Kurfurst
03-13-2004, 09:13 AM
For a brief moment, consider that there`s possibility that your 30mm shells are not so effective because you happen to hit with only the incendinary ones, and not with the Mine shells.. the 20mm cannon does seem to be weakened in AEP to me, but the 30mm still shreds planes to pieces - if I hit with the Mineshell, and not the other one.

LuftLuver
03-13-2004, 09:48 AM
For the same reason I watched a Bf109 take a direct 37mm hit just aft of the canopy and kept flying as happy as before. I shot up a friendly FW190 in QMB and it took 5-7 hits before it finally nosed over and lawn darted. NO structural damage. Now let's talk about your mk108 some more. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/war/fighter/p39/p39_cannon.jpg

clint-ruin
03-13-2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VO101__Kurfurst:
For a brief moment, consider that there`s possibility that your 30mm shells are not so effective because you happen to hit with only the incendinary ones, and not with the Mine shells.. the 20mm cannon does seem to be weakened in AEP to me, but the 30mm still shreds planes to pieces - if I hit with the Mineshell, and not the other one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would entirely agree with that. The brief rundown of what usually happens when a "BS!" large cal hit occurs [whether MK108, M4, NS37, VYA, NS45, and so on]

a) delayed action tripping the round off after it passes through a surface, and giving only a smattering of fragment damage all over the plane - not 100% sure that this happens, but fairly sure.

b) hitting a thin surface - a wingtip or elevator - and annihilating an aileron or a piece of the stabiliser, but not much else

c) from the Il-2 version of the gun table:

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072


At least at the time that table was written, if a tracer arcs towards the target and smacks into it .. the hit was an HEIT, not an MG round. Ditto for the NS37 and MK103 on that issue - AP rounds for those show as the tracers, not the nice big HE / MG rounds.

I'd so love to get an updated version of that text file :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

BuzzardHead
03-13-2004, 10:05 AM
I've seen photos of F-86 with 37mm damage from MiG-15 that flew home.

You can run but...You'll only die out of breath.

Hristo_
03-13-2004, 10:52 AM
An odd aircraft might have even survived 1-2 30mm hits. Another odd aircraft might have been destroyed by a single 20mm round.

But hitting aricraft with MK 108 30mm in AEP and watching it fly away seems to be the norm.

Today I've played most part of the day. I've downed double figures. All with 109K, using 30mm. Only one Spit lost its rear fuselage due to 1 30mm round. All other planes required on average 3 or more rounds.

P38s are the worst. This one got at least 5 rounds from close six. No structural damage, only holes all over the plane. It crashed seconds later due to damaged controls, it seems.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/g1.jpg
approach from the rear

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/g2.jpg
hitting it with burst of 30mm, at least 5-6 rounds connected

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/g3.jpg
still flies, only riddled with holes, nothing missing, nothing fell off...it slowly turned into a long dive and crashed - damaged controls or PK, it seems

In any case, I don't want to make it an endless whine. I posted what I've noticed, but it seems that this thread is going down rather fast-so I'm doon with it.

I have other tracks from today's flying. All show the same thing. 30mm needs several solid hits to score a kill. That's all...

Hunde_3.JG51
03-13-2004, 10:55 AM
As a heads up I have an interesting track that will be posted where a P-63 takes 5 30mm rounds and not one piece of the plane is missing, the engine is still running strong, but the AI pilot crashes as I believe his controls were cut or he was wounded and didn't pull up in time. There are issues/changes with the 30mm, and 20mm (all of them), and heavy machine guns (all of them) IMHO. Which is fine as long as it was intended and we are informed but we are being told no changes were made.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Sat March 13 2004 at 10:15 AM.]

Flamin_Squirrel
03-13-2004, 11:00 AM
Agreed. I hope the DM gets changed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

VO101__Kurfurst
03-13-2004, 11:03 AM
Hristos,

please set in conf.ini the line

Arcade = 1

It will show the effects of hits with arrows.
If you could run that same track again, but with this "arcade" mode on, please do screanshots in the same moments, when shells hit the plane. It will clear up the issue wheter we are dealing with a bug, or it`s a simple case of non-HE shells hitting in those cases, doing little damage (which is OK). BTW, it`s usually a lot fewer rounds hit actually than one would think given the fireworks...

Bull_dog_
03-13-2004, 01:18 PM
I never thought I'd see a post where people were complaining that the Mk 108 wasn't powerful enough.... its getting cold in hell I think...

anyways...I don't fly luftwaffe aircraft much, but I feel like machine guns and 20mm cannons have lost some of their sting too...

In fact, I'm conjecturing that something has changed overall in the game...I cant get as many kills in QMB as I used to...don't know what but overall weapon effectiveness seems to have declined imho.... though I've not tested it and wouldn't know how to begin.

If it has declined, I don't think it has by much...not like the original game...I know I saw some posts a day or two after aep was released...sometimes I think that the code is so intertwined in this game, stuff happens and Oleg doesn't know it and sometimes doesn't believe it...

my $.02

Enofinu
03-13-2004, 01:48 PM
most of the kills i have to shoot over 3 hits of 30mm per fighter to get kill. i find it bit odd.
about those explosive amounts carried by mk108 rounds, its not ordinary TNT. its much more efficient content with better shock blast. was it H41A or somethin, ant remember, there is tables in internet about explosives. but, dang. hope that Maddox team makes blast effect exist in next sim, it really woudl be needed. btw, one Finnish pilot took P39 37mm cannon He shell in his leg, where it exploded, he lost "some" flesh from lower leg :P true story. but, Cheers all, drunk here and really pissed of(by my friends)

Gunner_361st
03-13-2004, 02:58 PM
A good link about WW2 aircraft weaponry statistics. - http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

Check the tables. And best of all, read the last paragraph under "Comments on Table 2"

"The outstanding performer is clearly the German 30 mm MK 108, which achieves ten times the destructiveness of the .50 M2 for only twice the weight. It makes a particularly interesting comparison with the MK 103, which fired the same M-Geschoss projectiles. The MK 103 gains an advantage because of its higher velocity, but loses most of it due to its lower rate of fire, then is finally eclipsed in efficiency because of its much greater weight. No surprise that the Luftwaffe considered the MK 108 their premier air-fighting gun despite its low muzzle velocity. The Me 262 jet fighter, with four of these guns clustered in the nose, completely outclassed the firepower of every other WW2 fighter."

I haven't really played with the MK108 yet in FB... Never really cared for it much because of the mediocre muzzle velocity. The MG-151/20 still packs plenty of punch with good muzzle velocity.

I would agree though, if fighter aircraft are taking multiple MK108 hits in the fuselage and suffering no fires or structural damage, something would seem ary. I'll play with it some right now...
Cheer, gents.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Hristo_
03-13-2004, 03:05 PM
Definitely an online problem, as 30mm is a killer offline. I used arcade mode and it usually took 1 HE 30mm shell to down a P38L.

However, online it happened as I described. So, either I'm losing packets, or somethign else is wrong. Maybe servers use tweaked lethality ?!

If someone would please point me how to use arcade mode in tracks I already filmed online ? It doesn't work by changing to Arcade=1 in conf.ini.

p1ngu666
03-13-2004, 03:25 PM
sometimes it dont work X|
and isnt a fighter gonna have a strong a section as a bomber?
there would be some variations, but id say they be similer

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

clint-ruin
03-15-2004, 09:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
As a heads up I have an interesting track that will be posted where a P-63 takes 5 30mm rounds and not one piece of the plane is missing, the engine is still running strong, but the AI pilot crashes as I believe his controls were cut or he was wounded and didn't pull up in time. There are issues/changes with the 30mm, and 20mm (all of them), and heavy machine guns (all of them) IMHO. Which is fine as long as it was intended and we are informed but we are being told no changes were made.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Sat March 13 2004 at 10:15 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Hunde,

I've watched your P-63 / Mk108 track.

Please read my posts and V101__Kurfursts posts in this thread.

Then see:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/poorhunde1.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/poorhunde2.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/poorhunde3.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/poorhunde4.jpg

Tracer hits still make the big fireworks, but not much in the way of arrows. They will do damage, but not a huge, massive ammount of damage to a target. There's actually only one MG hit that I would be 100% certain of - the third hit you get in the track - but this impacts on the lower fuselage at a very slight angle and you get ripped off in the fragment distribution effect from it.

Thank you for posting tracks, I tend to like this a lot better.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
03-15-2004, 09:48 PM
Clint, there are still two more hits to go, one in the other wing and one straight down through the nose. Yes the plane goes down after that from the pilot being wounded or damaged controls but the fact is there is still not one piece missing from the Kingcobra even after a vertical hit on each wing, one straight through the top of the nose, one in the stabilizer (possible glance but shell exploded), and one in rear fuesalge. Doesn't seem right to me. I guess it could be tracers that are doing very little damage but then I have numerous tracks with the same thing happeneing and I doubt that I always hit with tracers. How many tracers are in Mk.108 compared to other types of shells (1 for every 4 for example)? Still, tracer or not a shot straight through the nose should do major damage IMO.

Btw, pretty d1cky naming the pics "poorhunde."

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

clint-ruin
03-15-2004, 09:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Doesn't seem right to me. I guess it could be tracers that are doing very little damage but then I have numerous tracks with the same thing happeneing and I doubt that I always hit with tracers. How many tracers are in Mk.108 compared to other types of shells (1 for every 4 for example)?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MK 108
// HEIT - MG


50-50, unless the data has changed.

Kurfurst:
It will clear up the issue wheter we are dealing with a bug, or it`s a simple case of non-HE shells hitting in those cases, doing little damage (which is OK).

I don't know how productive it will be to attempt to paint Isegrim as a "VVS whiner".

edit: I should also mention that in this case "little damage" means a hit square on the wing putting quite large holes in it, on the visual representation. A hit with a HEIT on the vertical stabiliser is enough to damage the engine and make it pour smoke out. "little damage" from the "weak" tracer rounds is still more powerful than any round smaller than the Mk108 per shot in FB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Btw, pretty d1cky naming the pics "poorhunde."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was going to name them unfortunatehunde but that was too long.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
03-15-2004, 10:07 PM
Btw, I asked Zen to put in the readme that I was not "claiming" anything by these tracks, they are simply there for consideration. However, I do believe the FW-190 mg-jam is a bug (similar to gunsight bug which I identified the day after AEP was released) as well as the Lagg-3 taking no damage from .303's at all, and these were sent to Oleg. The others are simply there to be discussed.


Edit: I agree that the explosive power/fragmentation is indeed powerful. And I didn't say there was no damage, just not enough IMO. I am satisfied with the first hit if it is a tracer round then (good point). The second hit was glancing and the fragmentation did damage so that is good. The rear fuesalage hit was not at a great angle but it still entered solidly into fuesalage seemingly doing no damage. The fourth hit enters straight through the wing and I didn't see any damage (I will have to check again). The fifth hit goes straight through the nose and apparently does nothing at all to the plane. Still, having said all of this the damage may be in-line with the seemingly new changes to DM where internal damage is easier to inflict and structural damage is more difficult (which I am fine with).

Btw, feel free to post pics of the last three hits and what the plane looks like after http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Better yet, post all five hits and what the plane looks like after (before it hits the ground).

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Mon March 15 2004 at 09:43 PM.]

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Tue March 16 2004 at 08:01 AM.]

JG53Keil
03-15-2004, 10:40 PM
Hi there

I'm thankful that Gunner_361st postet a link about WWII Ammunition, it's a basic for game-values

You should stop arguing in a way like the MK 108 (and all the other guns...) should be like..

Simply search (gather) documents with proof witch help the programmers create real values, figures are always better than mistery tales. 1cMaddox never said they have all the documents for everything, sometimes they just have a leak of imformation. So if you're so kind to give them the neccesary informations, then i'm sure they'll change sth.

I would be pleased if Mr. Oleg could take the posted ammunition values as a basic for his game.


Best Regards Keil

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Tue March 16 2004 at 08:02 AM.]

Hunde_3.JG51
03-15-2004, 10:55 PM
JG53Keil. I'm not sure how to take your post but I just want to clarify something (please read my above post also). I never asked for the 30mm to be changed at all. I'm simply putting up a track for consideration, if I was that adament about it or thought it was definitely wrong then I would have sent it to Oleg. I apologize if your post wasn't directed at me or I misunderstood.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

HellToupee
03-15-2004, 11:47 PM
In the end why complain the 30mm seems to be clearly underpowered but is that a bad thing? no in my oponion those things are 0 fun to fight against or with, look what it did to the ki43c, nothing like a long fight gaining hits on your apponent with 20mms none of this fire blindly score a single hit and fly home with a kill.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

Korolov
03-15-2004, 11:57 PM
I find that the big heavy cannon are really quite useless on fighters, even the mk108. They'll work in a pinch, but HMG win the day over them. I'd take a couple Mg131 over a single mk108 any day for anti-fighter tasks.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

pinche_bolillo
03-16-2004, 12:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Korolov:
I find that the big heavy cannon are really quite useless on fighters, even the mk108. They'll work in a pinch, but HMG win the day over them. I'd take a couple Mg131 over a single mk108 any day for anti-fighter tasks.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well I too have noticed a big difference. It seems that the accuracy of the weapon has fallen off as well. now I have no problem with the accuracy being poor. but I have to hit the enemy a/c 4-6x w/108s to bring it down. quite often 3-4 108s on the tail do nothing but knock off the rudder control surfaces. I was begginning to wonder if it was me.

now korolov, in 1.22 the 20mm was way more ineffective than the 30mm. I can average 2x the kills in a 30mm a/c than I can in a 20mm a/c. and usually when im out of 30mm ammo I rtb even though I have a decent amount of 13mm ammo left. w/ the 20mm armed a/c I use up all my ammo for those 3-4 kills. and here lately the way lag and game pauses have been I can empty all my 20mm ammo on an a/c and watch it fly away all happy and cheery as though I never hit it.

Flamin_Squirrel
03-16-2004, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HellToupee:
In the end why complain the 30mm seems to be clearly underpowered but is that a bad thing? no in my oponion those things are 0 fun to fight against or with, look what it did to the ki43c, nothing like a long fight gaining hits on your apponent with 20mms none of this fire blindly score a single hit and fly home with a kill.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats the way it was though Hell. The mk108 was cosidered a one shot killer against fighters. Not too surprising since it was designed for bomber killing.

I dont tend to use the mk108 when flying 109's though, because of the lousy muzzle velocity, poor accuracy and lack of ammo. Remember those things and its not hard to avoid being hit by them.

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 05:28 AM
When one takes 109 with MK108 into combat, he has to be aware of :

- only 60 rounds available (about 6-7 seconds of fire)
- extremely low muzzle velocity (making most deflection shots a matter of luck)
- only one gun installed, with 500-600 rpm (planes often fly through bullet stream unhurt)

Now, these are all serious drawbacks of the gun.

With so many drawbacks there has to be some benefit, otherwise why did the Germans even bother ?

The benefit is that it was a one shot killer against fighters. If you take that historical quality away from it, what do you have left ???

Right now fighters take more MK108 hits to down that what was average for a bomber to get downed with a MK108 (3 hits on average to down a heavy bomber, historical record).

Now, where are those Spitfire and Blenheim photos when you need the ? The ones showing damage to each plane from a single MK108 round ?

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 05:32 AM
I'm sorry Hunde i didn't wanted to offend you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I just like to see people who give a background about what they say for example Pictures, Tracks or Books sth like a pouring listing where they got the information from.

PS: i'll try to get some pics about the MK108-Damage

G Keil

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

&lt;a href="http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de"&gt;&lt;img src="http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif" style="border:1px solid #000000; width:450px;"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;

WhiskeyRiver
03-16-2004, 05:37 AM
I've seen photo's of fighters that have made it home after receiving hit's from 40mm and 90mm AAA. I don't think there are any guarantees with weapon damage. Maybe Oleg put some sort of randomizing element in the DM code.

BTW 1 30mm hit blew one of the booms of my p-38 while online last nite.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

Hunde_3.JG51
03-16-2004, 05:56 AM
Keil, just a heads up. Zen did post a few tracks from me at the end of the 151/20 thread.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Flamin_Squirrel
03-16-2004, 06:19 AM
Hristo_ - could you post links if you find an pics of battle damage? Would be most interesting.

Thanks

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 07:42 AM
I've seen them in other forums - British tests of captured MK108 cannon. I've tried to find those pics but to no avail.

They used it on a Spitfire and a Blenheim.

Both planes were hit with a single 30mm round in rear fuselage. Both were extremely heavy damaged. Note that those were ground tests. When in air, the damage would be even greater because of wind stress on the airframe.

If someone has the pics or the link, please post them here.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

carguy_
03-16-2004, 07:54 AM
Maybe the underpowered MK108 wouldn`t be so bad if the accuracy from pre-1.22 patch stayed.

Some time ago before the pre-1.22 patch one guy posted nice research he has done and plenty of charts.
After that the pre-1.22 patch returned MK108 to it`s glory.

Let`s hope that 1C team simply overlooked that detail.

IMO it would be the best to just bring back IL2 ver 1.1 MK108 and leave it alone.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Gunner_361st
03-16-2004, 07:55 AM
I had those british test pictures Hristo, but lost them a few months ago when I had to format my HD. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The spitfire's fuselage was literally ripped in half.

The bomber (I believe it was a Lancaster, but I am not sure, perhaps you are right and it was a Blenheim) looked like a beer can that just exploded due to too much pressure, splintered out and all nasty looking.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Koohullin
03-16-2004, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunner_361st:
I had those british test pictures Hristo, but lost them a few months ago when I had to format my HD. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The spitfire's fuselage was literally ripped in half.

The bomber (I believe it was a Lancaster, but I am not sure, perhaps you are right and it was a Blenheim) looked like a beer can that just exploded due to too much pressure, splintered out and all nasty looking.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It was a special test setup that had the 30mm exploding inside the fuselage. The a/c were a Spitfire and a Blenhiem. Lots of gas to help with the resulting damage.

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 09:05 AM
20mm Bullets of a FW 190 have caused this damage
http://www.b17fortress.de/damage_heck_2.jpg

one hit (doesn't know what ammunition) the hull rested stabil
http://www.b17fortress.de/damage_rumpf_3.jpg

109 vs b17 face to face attack
http://www.b17fortress.de/damage_bug_7.jpg

and a bomber after a Me 262 attack
http://www.b17fortress.de/damage_rumpf_1.jpg

G Keil

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

&lt;img src="http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif" style="border:1px solid #000000; width:450px;"&gt; (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 09:11 AM
I have to agree 1 30mm bullet doesn't need to bring a enemy fighter down but there has to be some kind of disadvantage after a hit (not a fuel leak and no FM-Disadvantage after 5 hits)

G Keil

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

&lt;a href="http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de"&gt;"http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif" style="border:1px solid #000000; width:450px;"&lt;/a&gt;

Tully__
03-16-2004, 09:12 AM
I've cleaned up. Please keep it clean and civil.

=================================================


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Salut
Tully

HarryVoyager
03-16-2004, 09:13 AM
A critical point with the Mk108 shell, is that they explode upone contact with any surface. If you land a shell on the rudder of a fighter, you're goign to have a nice large explosion, right about the surface of the rudder, and most of the energy of the shell is going to be completely wasted, as it dissipates into open space. Depending on where the shell hits, it could waste upwards of 80% of its energy.

Conversly, with a shell that penetrates some didstance, before detonating, none of the energy is going to be wasted in that manner.

So, if you assume that a MK108 shell has 10 times the explosive force of a penetrating 20mm, you can easily end up in situations where a MK108 shell only delivers about twice the power of a compairable 20mm penetrator. That isn't much.

Against a large target, however, it is much less likely for large percentages of the blast energy being shot into empty space. You land a shell on top of a B-17's wing, and half the blast is going to project into the wing, and cause damage over a large area. Lob a shell in a 1000km/h merge, and your going to get penetrating rounds too, just from the sheer kinetic energy involved.

Basically, the MK108 was designed exclusively to destroy large, relatively soft, targets. Use it out side of that regime, and you get a highly unpredictable weapon.

There are reasons why it was considered completely unsuitable for fighter to fighter combat.

Harry Voyager

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 09:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Koohullin:


It was a special test setup that had the 30mm exploding inside the fuselage. The a/c were a Spitfire and a Blenhiem. Lots of gas to help with the resulting damage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Found one photo of a test against Spitfire. Sorry for the poor quality, for now it is the best I could find.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/30mm.jpg

The text says:
"(a) Cause - the 30 mm. MK 108 cannon, seen here with one of the explosive rounds it fired. This weapon was fitted in the upper nose of the majority of Bf 110s which saw action during the latter part of the war. (b) -and effect. The damage to this Spitfire was caused by a hit from a single explosive round from an MK 108, fired during a test on the ground."

Also, weren't German cannon rounds equipped with delayed fuzing ?

I've read that the fuzing didn't work upon impact, but the shell was fuzed by a centrifugal fuze. The moment when it stopped rotating was the moment when it went off.

So, in effect, you have shells first penetrating, then exploding. Not on the surface, but inside the plane.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 09:24 AM
interesting, then you could draw a line over to the english and russian ammunition as well and tell that they might have the same effects?

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 09:36 AM
Here's Blenheim...

http://pages.ykt.ru/il2/Hronika/photohronika/30mm%20mk108%20on%20blenheim.jpg

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

Gunner_361st
03-16-2004, 09:40 AM
Harry makes some very good points.

If the MK108 HE round does not penetrate before exploding, much of the energy of the blast can be wasted. Whether germans used delayed fuse so that the round would penetrate before exploding, I do not know. It should also be noted that fighters are much thinner and harder targets than a big lumbering bomber like the B17, so perhaps what people are noticing is the HE shell hitting the skin, which is hard enough to cause detonation before penetration, thus reducing the power of the round? Just an idea, don't quote me or anything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Also, I never liked the MK108 for fighter vs. fighter combat because of its mediocre muzzle velocity. It is like throwing a softball. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I like to call it the German Potato Launcher. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 09:51 AM
So read my post again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Germans did use delayed fuzing. Their shells detonated when the rotation stopped, not upon hit.

This not only provided that shells went off inside the target, but also that they didn't fall on German soil.

If fired at high alt and missed, the shell would detonate by itself once the rotation slowed down. So they didn't drop their own shells over their own country in 1943-45.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

clint-ruin
03-16-2004, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
A critical point with the Mk108 shell, is that they explode upone contact with any surface. If you land a shell on the rudder of a fighter, you're goign to have a nice large explosion, right about the surface of the rudder, and most of the energy of the shell is going to be completely wasted, as it dissipates into open space. Depending on where the shell hits, it could waste upwards of 80% of its energy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this and it has been noted by most who have done testing with FB gunnery.

I am fairly sure that there is some kind of randomisation that kicks in to give weird fusing effects - very occasionally you will see a round that penetrates a thin, flat surface [tailplane/wingtip] where the majority of the fragment arrows seem to come from the -other- side of what was hit. The shot of the Yak minus the right horizontal stab I've posted a few times actually seemed to come through the rudder before it exploded.

There are also just flat out weird things that happen regardless.

I have managed to find one instance of certifiable weird behaviour with the MK108 in 2.00 after 19x4 test runs now [most of my time has been spent playing endless chasies with the MG151/20 to try to get it to do anything weird].

The first three P-63s all go down pretty well, there's one instance where the plane maybe should have suffered more damage than it did, but the plane is killed regardless. We see a couple of the factors that usually come into 'dud' MK108 hits - tracer HEIT hits as opposed to MG, and an instance where the tailplane intercepts the shell, blows off the left horizontal stabliliser, peppers the airframe with fragments, and does bugger all else. Other than '1 shot 1 kill' MG hits, this all I was seeing up until this last one - 76th kill.

The forth one I take down in this track is some kind of undead-zombie P-63 piloted by the ghost of Marx, or something.

Take a look at this:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/test-p63-oddity.zip

Track has been submitted to 1c. Be gentle on the flying, this is hard stuff using an analogue gamepad :/

Bear in mind it took me 75 goes of MK108 vs P-63 to get this to happen, though :&gt;

edit: way to mess up my own homedirs url, hooray.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Tue March 16 2004 at 09:11 AM.]

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 10:12 AM
Can't download the file http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but i would be interested

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

clint-ruin
03-16-2004, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Keil:
Can't download the file http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but i would be interested


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try again now - telstra like to mess people up by using the bigpond.com domain for some things and bigpond.net.au for others :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 10:18 AM
yep now it works http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

609IAP_Recon
03-16-2004, 10:42 AM
mk108 underpowered?

I have a few tracks showing how I destroy some aircraft with one shot.

Are you too far away maybe?

JG50_Recon
http://jg50.com/images/JG50_SIGG.gif
----
http://www.thepassionofthechrist.com

clint-ruin
03-16-2004, 10:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG50_Recon:
mk108 underpowered?

I have a few tracks showing how I destroy some aircraft with one shot.

Are you too far away maybe?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is indeed very easy to destroy aircraft with one shot - enough fragments going into the fuel tank or engine will typically trigger the "blow the entire plane up in a huge fireball" death, or at least take a wing/tail off. Assuming that the 30mm shell proper penetrates the cockpit glass, anywhere, you are almost guaranteed a pilot kill at the least.

Range doesn't really come into it - the MK108s muzzle velocity is absolutely dire in any case, and almost all of the damage is done by the shells explosive effects. May have some effect on the penetration of the HEITs in some cases.

At any rate it does seem like there is a -very- rare case where a plane can take effectively infinite MK108 hits, concentrated on the same spot. That P-63 test above is the only time I've encountered it [and I have run a seriously mind numbing number of tests in 1.21/2.00 on it now], but it probably crops up often enough to annoy with enough players playing the game over a period of time...

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

pinche_bolillo
03-16-2004, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristo_:
When one takes 109 with MK108 into combat, he has to be aware of :

- only 60 rounds available (about 6-7 seconds of fire)
- extremely low muzzle velocity (making most deflection shots a matter of luck)
- only one gun installed, with 500-600 rpm (planes often fly through bullet stream unhurt)

Now, these are all serious drawbacks of the gun.

With so many drawbacks there has to be some benefit, otherwise why did the Germans even bother ?

The benefit is that it was a one shot killer against fighters. If you take that historical quality away from it, what do you have left ???

Right now fighters take more MK108 hits to down that what was average for a bomber to get downed with a MK108 (3 hits on average to down a heavy bomber, historical record).

Now, where are those Spitfire and Blenheim photos when you need the ? The ones showing damage to each plane from a single MK108 round ?

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

one thing to remember when looking at the spitfire and blenheim photos is that the rounds were detonated inside a static a/c thus causing optimal damage. anybody know where there are some photos of air to air hits from a mk 108

Flamin_Squirrel
03-16-2004, 11:25 AM
Yeah the pictures of the B-17s at the top of the page

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 11:27 AM
sometimes it even works...but mostly I hit them only to watch them fly merrily after and even take shots at me as I whiz by

I provided a long online track in first page of the thread. So far it has been ignored.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

JG53Keil
03-16-2004, 11:36 AM
the mk108 is really very good vs 2 engined planes but not vs fighters (in game)

i tested the 20mm hisparo and it is quite strong for a 20mm gun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif i'll analyse the Site about Ammunition whom was posted and test some planes in AEP though thx for the tip (bomber/fighter damage)

G Keil

III/JG53*Keil Staffelführer 8.Staffel III/JG53

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/keil.gif (http://www.jagdgeschwader53.de)

HarryVoyager
03-16-2004, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristo_:
Germans did use delayed fuzing. Their shells detonated when the rotation stopped, not upon hit.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been told multiple times on this forum that the MK108 fuses were impact triggered, and sensitive enough to detonate upon contact with a sheet of paper.

Obviously, at least one of those two cases is incorrect, but I do not have any good refferences on the German fusing technology.

Another note on the depth of penetration, the MK108 is an exceptionally slow shell; it does not have much energy to penetrate with, normally. After flyign some flights in the Me-163, and seeing the effects of the Mk108 on B-17Gs at varying speeds, I can say with some certainty, that the MK108 is a devastating shell, if it impacts at a high relative speed to the target. Short busts fired at a 1000km/h closure rate would routinely rip wings completely off of the bomber, while those same burst fired at a 200 km/h closure rate would often merely cause engine damage.

Considering thatt Oleg has already stated on these boards that the impact velocity and angle are quite importaint to the damage calculations, it stand to reason that the relative velocity of the shell has an impact on how it performs.

It is a devestating shell, if it penetrates the aircraft, but if it explodes on the surface, or even just above the surface, it is very weak. Remember, it is quite possible for rounds to ricochet off aircraft in this game, if they lack sufficent penetrating force. I would suspect that would apply just as well to the MK108 as it does to the Browning 0.50.

On a side note, I have a beatiful screenshot of dozens of 0.50 rounds ricocheting off of an Il-2. It looks like its snowing in front of the Il-2, there are so many bounces.

Harry Voyager

clint-ruin
03-16-2004, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HarryVoyager:
On a side note, I have a beatiful screenshot of dozens of 0.50 rounds ricocheting off of an Il-2. It looks like its snowing in front of the Il-2, there are so many bounces.

Harry Voyager<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You see this a lot with rifle cal bullets vs pilot armour too. I love that effect - other than that it means you are doing basically nothing to the target :&gt;.

Agree about penetration factors - it does matter less for the MG than the HEITs, though. A good way to check what a difference 400m/s can make is to look at the damage inflicted by the MK103 on targets vs MK108 [excluding that you have HE rather than HEIT and AP shells in the mix].

From our good friend the gun table:

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072
_____

Speed is death ;&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 12:02 PM
Here, have it all:
http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/weapon15.htm

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

delayed and non-delayed, practice, tracer etc.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

clint-ruin
03-16-2004, 12:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristo_:
Here, have it all:
http://www.sml.lr.tudelft.nl/~home/rob/me163/weapon15.htm

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

delayed and non-delayed, practice, tracer etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damn that's a good site. Do you know of any others that are similiarly detailed for other shells?

Thanks for posting that, great stuff.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hristo_
03-16-2004, 12:41 PM
Sorry, found this one just now.

There is some very good Finnish material of similar quality on MG 151 shells, but I've got no URL ;(.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

WWMaxGunz
03-16-2004, 12:52 PM
US proximity rounds ran on internal battery. The acid for the battery was in glass tubes that the gun firing broke and then the spin forced the acid into the lead and zinc plates-as-washers. By the time the power was running the unit the shell was well clear of the gun.

You might try the US Navy site for other details. I've seen things there I didn't think would be. The Army history site was passworded when I checked back in 1999. Never tried the AF though....

I'd be kinda leery of something that could go off on a sheet of paper at range just because the force of the shockwave of the shell at the muzzle or even near it is greater than a few hundred yards out. What is the force to shear paper? I guess it depends on the paper. Cardboard is a different matter, common corrugated can run 150 lbs/sq in, IIRC. It's printed on many boxes what load it can take. I think paper has that too but maybe not.


Neal

LuftKuhMist
03-16-2004, 05:31 PM
Well I don't have much problems with the MK108, though I have seen that most guns feel somewhat impotent. Especially the small ones, such as the english mgs. Hey, I know that it wasn't very powerful but it is just useless now... as the BF109 Mgs...

20MM is rather weak now. I'd fly a P51 over a FW190 anyday because of its guns. I know that .50 was strong but the FW190 spits more metal per sec than the P51 anyhow.

Anyway now the useful guns are the MK108, MK103 and .50. The rest isn't lethal anymore.

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
03-16-2004, 08:30 PM
LuftKuhMist, the .303s are pretty strong now, at least on Hurricane IIb. Take a Hurricane IIb vs. a P-47, FW-190, or a P-38 and see how fast they go down. I posted a track where I set a P-47 ablaze with only a few hits in DM tracks "thread." I also posted a track to contradict this where a Lagg-3 takes numerous .303 hits with no damage at all. So I guess it depends on the plane you are flying against.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

noshens
03-16-2004, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pinche_bolillo:
anybody know where there are some photos of air to air hits from a mk 108<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not many are made, guess why http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WWMaxGunz
03-16-2004, 08:55 PM
Germans destroyed the photos or didn't have guncam film?


Neal

LuftKuhMist
03-16-2004, 11:19 PM
Hmm well when you have 12 of those .303... but when you try the gloster gladiator, how pityful! The IAR80, same thing!

What kind of gun is a gun that you need 12 of them to be effective?

Anyway, I haven't tried, I'll give it a spin tomorrow.

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

WWMaxGunz
03-17-2004, 12:54 AM
Those 303's just like the 7.62's can chop down trees at 100's of meters and not take too awful long to do it. They can kill you with one shot right through a car body provided they don't catch a heavy structural member. They are not to dismiss lightly. I've busted rocks at 200 yards using half-loads in a 30-06.


Neal

Purzel
03-17-2004, 01:55 AM
Hmm,

I think the photos of the damagen spit and blenheim say a lot, and the ones of the B17s show that actual battle damage isnt less in any case.

I would say its pretty clear that cannons are much too weak right now, and that this applies to the 30mm as well.

I mean: they didnt have photoshop in the 40s and I dont believe that these photos are faked.

These guns didnt have the nickname one-shot-killer for nothing. Off course its no guarante for killing any plane with one hit but that should be the regular outcome. Sometimes or on P47s or something you would need 2 Hits.

Honestly this cannot be 100% correct in FB AEP.

LuftKuhMist
03-17-2004, 11:36 AM
I have seen a FW200 eat 5 37mm shots. One landed right in the pilot's face, which made the plane crash... but hey, 5 shots!!!

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

Ugly_Kid
03-17-2004, 12:25 PM
The 37 mm from Airacobra is not comparable with MK108. This depends on the ammunition. Anyway as for MK108:

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/mk108.jpg

"the 330 g heavy M'Geschoß ripped a 1.75 m^2 large hole on a direct hit in an aircraft wing. It was thus calculated that one hit on a fighter of about "Mustang" size and four hits on a four-engine bomber is enough to down the aircraft"

Ugly_Kid
03-17-2004, 12:36 PM
And that with fuses you can forget. They were much more advanced than most care to admit.

In the picture above older takes from MG-FF hits on He111 elevator with a normal impact fuse (from both sides). On the pictures below the same part with a disrupting fuse and on the picture to the right an aircraft wing shot with 20 mm with VC delay fuse. "With VS it was possible to bring the explosion in all cases into the structure, even with wings with thick skin, so that the complete explosion occured inside the structure.
http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/0123.jpg

http://people.freenet.de/hausberg/0122.jpg

Hristo_
03-17-2004, 12:46 PM
Spitfire damage

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Bordwaffen/MK108MGeffectonSpit.jpg

This is effect of just ONE shell. Planes in AEP sometimes take 3 or even more shells and keep flying.

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"I'm not warping, I'm just good ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

WWMaxGunz
03-17-2004, 03:44 PM
Is it a Mk108 problem or a DM's hit by HE problem?

Nice ta seeya Ugly Kid! There's a thread where somone is begging to understand about dives... one of the same guys as before, LOL! It's one of the Spitfire threads. You or Blotto might be able to help.


Neal

HarryVoyager
03-18-2004, 12:11 AM
I'm still going to point out that all of those are test firings against perpendicular targets.

When one is firing at targets from directly, or nearly directly astern, one is trying to penetrate those same plates at 70-90 degrees off perpendicular. You are going to get markedly different results, especially when firing low velocity rounds.

Even if you have highly advanced fuses, it doesn't change the fact that the round has to get firmly inside the structure to deliver the most of its energy to the desired target.

I simply find it hard to believe that such a high contact area, low velocity round, is going to have sufficient energy density to routinely achieve deep penetration of oblique armour plates.

Harry Voyager

JG53Hunter
03-18-2004, 01:50 AM
Even if the plates are oblique i think that they are relative easy to penetrade. Patriculary in the rear sections of the plane. To be balanced, the plane has to be constructed from thin aluminum plate wrapped around a the frames especially in the back of the plane. All armour i've ever seen on construction papers was near the point of gravity of the plane. (Pilotarmour, backarmour of the engines, backarmour of the fuel-compartments etc..)

Greetings,
Hunter

Hristo_
03-18-2004, 03:37 AM
another track

Lame-7 takes two HE 30 mm rounds in right wing: one in the middle, one in wing root

Graphical representation is there, but nothing falls off, it still fights.

Seems that I really had to ram it to down it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Another weird thing is that, after we collide, my BF 109Z loses horizontal stab/elevator. I still have some pitch control left (??) and manage to land.

track (http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/weird.zip)

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"It's the delta wood, silly ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

clint-ruin
03-18-2004, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristo_:
another track

Lame-7 takes two HE 30 mm rounds in right wing: one in the middle, one in wing root

Graphical representation is there, but nothing falls off, it still fights.

Seems that I really had to ram it to down it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Another weird thing is that, after we collide, my BF 109Z loses horizontal stab/elevator. I still have some pitch control left (??) and manage to land.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/worksfinehere.jpg

Seems to work OK on the first La7..

But for the second one ..

http://users.bigpond.net.au/fb/doesntworkfinehere.jpg

Deltawood? :&gt;

Things like that can happen - if I had to say what FB thinks has happened, I'd assume the cowl shot didn't have enough velocity to penetrate, and that the shot on the edge of the left wing had its frags thrown out away from the aircraft - something that makes any 'thin surface' hits with HE rounds a bit annoying. As far as I can tell, all you ever get in FB is the main round hit, plus its frags - no shockwave or representation of a chemical explosion, other than that some frags/shells are HEI. Both of your hits there show MG shell damage.

The thing that's really weird with the second one is that your cowl shot doesn't seem to do much to the engine - gets a damage texture - maybe some pilot wounding which we don't see ..

..but if you look closely at the wing root on the -other side- of the plane, that one has had its damage texture advanced too. Which means the frags had to come through the cowl, or something weird like that.

Might be worth sending off to il2beta@1c.ru and see what Oleg says, even if you don't get a response about the MG hits it'd be nice to know what's up with the 38/109Zs pitch control when they lose the elevator :&gt;

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Hristo_
03-18-2004, 06:21 AM
another (http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/tough2.zip)

not just delta wood, here's P38 - two HE 30mm hits in vital parts, nothing
3rd hit causes engine damage

4th hit brings it down, but you tell me how http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"It's the delta wood, silly ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"

clint-ruin
03-18-2004, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristo_:
http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/tough2.zip

not just delta wood, here's P38 - two HE 30mm hits in vital parts, nothing
3rd hit causes engine damage

4th hit brings it down, but you tell me how http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

"It's the delta wood, silly ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's interesting..

MG hit effect shows on arcade=1

But it definitely seems like the tracer rounds are the ones impacting. Tracer is the round that gets intercepted, doesn't get drawn after it passes the aircraft. Here's what a HEIT usually looks like in-game:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/poorhunde3.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/poorhunde4.jpg

Occasional fragment damage, but not fantastic results.

Here's what the tracer hit looks like on your track [note in the p-63 shots above the way the MK108 tracers stop drawing their smoke trail just before impact - you're inside 800m so it's not the shell being removed from the game or anything]

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/heitormg1.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/heitormg2.jpg
http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/heitormg3.jpg

Weeird...

As I said - send 'em in - Oleg is currently looking at what is making weird things happen. I've found exactly -1- odd occurence with the MK108 so far after a lot of testing, and that was on one of the new-in-AEP planes too [p63].

edit: end of sentence removed refering to recon's post.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

[This message was edited by clint-ruin on Thu March 18 2004 at 11:39 AM.]

Ugly_Kid
03-18-2004, 12:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Is it a Mk108 problem or a DM's hit by HE problem?

Nice ta seeya Ugly Kid! There's a thread where somone is begging to understand about dives... one of the same guys as before, LOL! It's one of the Spitfire threads. You or Blotto might be able to help.


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's placebo before Oleg says aye (see I'm getting old) - frankly my impression (just that) is after visiting couple of DF servers that it's cut down some. I put a 30 mm round on something, got the elated feeling "sorry bugger is on his way to meet his maker" and immediately deflated while the guy flew on. Some Ki took 5 of them but it's just a feeling. It would appear as if DM has changed to multiple hits, damage here and there bit by bit but less wing-ripping blasts.
Pity with the 30 mm but since the performance gain is minimal it's not worth taking a G-6 with it, 20 mm will do the job. It's more noticable when trying FW-190A-9 with two MK108 on a head-job http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - takes maybe one second more on the trigger.

You mean the spit FM stuff? Same guys, same cripes. Claims of FM not taking weight into account on dive&zoom (yeah right) I think you explained it quite correctly up there. If they hadn't got it by now they'll be likely to remain unhappy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Some of this borders religion more than physics.

rbstr44
03-21-2004, 12:34 PM
{QUOTE}Originally posted by Hristo_:
Spitfire damage

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/Bordwaffen/MK108MGeffectonSpit.jpg

This is effect of just ONE shell. Planes in AEP sometimes take 3 or even more shells and keep flying.
{/QUOTE}

Now, I am guessing that damage in the pic is the result of a single German "mine projectile" (Minengeschoß). You really have to see this pic to believe how devastating that shell is.

Interesting page about German ammunition for various MG's/MK's, and ammo belt composition:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-am.html

Good visual comparison of some German ammo types:
http://www.geocities.com/bhawk_8/Ammunition.html


Displacement through a Slab of Glass
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/displacementcolorthreebeams.jpg
Entering and exiting rays are displaced
from each other, but parallel.
Refraction of Light (http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/refraction.html)

[This message was edited by rbstr44 on Sun March 21 2004 at 11:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by rbstr44 on Sun March 21 2004 at 11:50 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
03-21-2004, 09:48 PM
When dealing with shockwave damage inside a fuselage there are better distances inside and worse. There is an ideal distance for any given shell or bomb. Fusing for the shells would be set to account for how thick likely places hit will be and this ideal distance. You fire a perfect shot from the perfect distance (shell velocity on impact x fuse time, yah?), you get the best damage. The most impressive picture I've seen of 108 shell damage involved a *very* setup shell explosion. Not like it's going to happen every or nearly every time.

Read up on mach stem effects with small conventional warheads. There has to be room for the explosion to blossom, as it were. There has to be reflected waves. There has to be square area for the waves to affect which in a way is like a coal dust bomb only much quicker and much, much more violent.


Neal

Enofinu
04-06-2004, 09:10 AM
put 180grams of TNT inside your car and blow it up, then look ur new WW beetle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Enofinu
04-06-2004, 02:22 PM
1 30mm minengeschoss round has some +10 times more HE stuff with it than 20mm hispano He grenade has.
what should happen if u place 10 HE hispano grenades in same location ?

WWMaxGunz
04-06-2004, 02:48 PM
You'd get 50x the fragments, all bigger is what.

Why dig up an old thread on an issue that's been acknowleged? Read around, Ivan 2 days ago says there are changes. Wait for those, yah?


Neal

Enofinu
04-07-2004, 08:13 AM
well, in beta3 the damagemodels are bit better, but still i can feed some 4 mk108 30mm rounds on 109:s wing, 2 on both wing. aint it odd?
3 of em was minengeschoss rounds and one was He round. had arcade on. so, there is still something wrong. but its only a beta.

Enofinu
04-07-2004, 08:14 AM
oh, and the wing didnt go in pieces, still attached in plane, heavily damaged thougt. have track from that.

S77th-brooks
04-07-2004, 08:33 AM
so if there was diff shell load out on eastern front to the westren front should we not be getting a fix soon / heard there were more AP rounds then HE on eastern front ,was this ture? if so we will need to have new load out soon to for LW planes or should have to help out

Enofinu
04-07-2004, 01:04 PM
tested some more beta3.

P63 and P39 37mm M4 cannon rocks. its Way much more effective than Mk108. sometimes only 1 hit on B17 wing and wing fells off. while u can cover wing with 30mm ammo with Mk108.
cant understand how its possible. of course 37mm ammo is bigger in weight but not in explosive power. it makes bigger fragments when exploding.
109 in wartime was hit once by those in rear fuselge, fuselage didnt go apart till plane landed and airstream didnt anymore carry plane..

and those .50cals, they are way too powerfull now. way too powerfull. ripping wings and tails with just under 20 rounds, that cant be correct.
and why doesnt 13mm bite as hard as 12,7mm? because bit bigger muzzle velocity/weight of those rounds??

WhiskeyRiver
04-07-2004, 01:27 PM
Here's the data comparing the 12.7/13mm's.

12.7mm UBS API
Size 12.7x108mm
M/V 840 m/s
Bullet Weight 48g

M2 Browining API
Size 12.7x99mm
M/V 890
Bullet Weight 43

Ho-103 AP
Size 12.7x81mm
M/V 760
Bullet 35.4

Mg131 AP
Size 13x64mm
M/V 710
Bullet Weight 38.5

So the answer is that the MG131 doesn't do as much damage because it didn't do as much damage.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint Eastwood

Kurfurst__
04-07-2004, 01:43 PM
It isnt so simple. Bullet weight and muzzle velocity would only show you how much kinetic energy each round can generate. Unfortunately, this KE isnt used up 100% to damage the plane - only to an extent the bullet needs to go through the structure. And this means in real life, there isnt much difference in wing damage an MG 131 or UBS ammo does - the UBS just cuts a neater hole, then passes through just like a MG131 round. Simple because MUCH less energy is enough for that than the whole energy the round possessed. The only case when the whole KE is used up, and thus the only case when full KE ability of the round comes into the picture is one - when the bullet actually stops within the structure while trying to go through (and uses up all its energy while doing that). But theres very few such case, most of the structure is pierced with great ease, even the engine block... So what I want to say, for rounds of similiar caliber, w/o explosive content, theres very little difference in actual damage caused.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/dasboot.jpg
Final shot. Prepeare to fire! Target speed: 0. "Check" Range, 650 meters. "Check" Depth: 4 meters. Torpedo speed: three-zero. Aiming point..forward of after mast.
Tube I., ready? "Tube I. ready!" Tube I....! "Tube I." Fire! "Fire. Torpedo running!"


Our Messer which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy moment come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily Abschuss.
And forgive us our Errors, as We forgive Your Flaws against us. And lead us not into Temptation to dogfight, but deliver us from Those Below : For thine are The Altitude, and The Climbrate, and the MK 108, forever and ever.
Amen.

Enofinu
04-07-2004, 01:52 PM
well, those 50 cals should not rip wing as they do now.
its same problem with every machinegun. they release all Kinetic energy to the target in every location where they hit.
whenu shoot at wing from above, it wont take much KE to penetrate wing, and after penetration, rest of the KE is waste Ke, but no so in game.
of course its different thing when u are shooting at engine or somehing which can withstand such KE without allowing particle to penetrate it totally. i hope u understand what i mean.

and btw, if bullet is slower it makes more damage when going thru different layers of plane, it twists metal more than fast flying bullet.
think about shotgun slug which been shot at 5mm steel plate. it makes that steel deform really much.
then imagine that u fire that plate with .308 cal huntin rifle, it makes only nice clean hole in it, nothing more.

WhiskeyRiver
04-07-2004, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
tested some more beta3.

P63 and P39 37mm M4 cannon rocks. its Way much more effective than Mk108. sometimes only 1 hit on B17 wing and wing fells off. while u can cover wing with 30mm ammo with Mk108.
cant understand how its possible. of course 37mm ammo is bigger in weight but not in explosive power. it makes bigger fragments when exploding.
109 in wartime was hit once by those in rear fuselge, fuselage didnt go apart till plane landed and airstream didnt anymore carry plane..

and those .50cals, they are way too powerfull now. way too powerfull. ripping wings and tails with just under 20 rounds, that cant be correct.
and why doesnt 13mm bite as hard as 12,7mm? because bit bigger muzzle velocity/weight of those rounds??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the data comparing the 12.7/13mm's.

12.7mm UBS API
Size 12.7x108mm
M/V 840 m/s
Bullet Weight 48g

M2 Browining API
Size 12.7x99mm
M/V 890
Bullet Weight 43

Ho-103 AP
Size 12.7x81mm
M/V 760
Bullet 35.4

Mg131 AP
Size 13x64mm
M/V 710
Bullet Weight 38.5

So the answer is that the MG131 doesn't do as much damage because it didn't do as much damage.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint Eastwood

WhiskeyRiver
04-08-2004, 01:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
well, those 50 cals should not rip wing as they do now.
its same problem with every machinegun. they release all Kinetic energy to the target in every location where they hit.
whenu shoot at wing from above, it wont take much KE to penetrate wing, and after penetration, rest of the KE is waste Ke, but no so in game.
of course its different thing when u are shooting at engine or somehing which can withstand such KE without allowing particle to penetrate it totally. i hope u understand what i mean.

and btw, if bullet is slower it makes more damage when going thru different layers of plane, it twists metal more than fast flying bullet.
think about shotgun slug which been shot at 5mm steel plate. it makes that steel deform really much.
then imagine that u fire that plate with .308 cal huntin rifle, it makes only nice clean hole in it, nothing more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That isn't a good analogy. A shotgun slug is a lot heavier than a 308 bullet. If there is an engine, wing spar, pilot, etc. behind the steel plate which bullet is going to do more damage.
The skin of an aircraft isn't going to do much to stop any HMG bullet.

Higher velocity, and heavier bullets will penetrate further into a structure. This increases the chance of hitting something critical and the damage done to whatever is struck.

The ballistic coeffcient of the Mg131 is inferior to the other 12.7mm weapons which will cause it to lose velocity faster as the range increases. The difference in hitting power will increase with range.

BTW, What aircraft is ripping wings off with the 50's?

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint Eastwood

WUAF_Badsight
04-08-2004, 01:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:

I'd assume the cowl shot didn't have enough velocity to penetrate, and that the shot on the edge of the left wing had its frags thrown out away from the aircraft - something that makes any 'thin surface' hits with HE rounds a bit annoying. As far as I can tell, all you ever get in FB is the main round hit, plus its frags - no shockwave or representation of a chemical explosion, other than that some frags/shells are HEI.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

]ok i got respect for all your testing in FB Clint_Ruin ....... do you really think that FBis that well detailed in its bullet DM ?

clint-ruin
04-08-2004, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
ok i got respect for all your testing in FB Clint_Ruin ....... do you really think that FBis that well detailed in its bullet DM ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even Il-2 was that detailed in its DMs/gunnery.

From memory the deflection from shallow angle hits was introduced with FB and that was about all that was added.

FB is pretty good but there's still a few things that just aren't represented. Given the sheer volume of fire some planes spit out it's understandable that some things just aren't going to be calculated. Even a modest sized mission with say, 4 Hurricane IIbs or 4 FW-190As firing at once will result in an awful lot of data flying around.

Without globally altering DMs to add pressure tollerance and flammability to new sections I don't think it's possible to improve upon what we have a great deal, other than just globally upping the damage weapons do, which is kind of inelegant. Being able to pop open structures [rather than just sever spars] and ignite the skin of aircraft [rather than just fuel] would be good things to look at for BOB though.

You may be able to find some posts from Oleg at the very absolute arse end of the ORR forum about this - but I couldn't when I went looking. Maybe in Mudmovers "ask Oleg" section or the SimHQ FB forum archives there might be some more direct info from him. He posted a fair bit about this stuff around the introduction of FB if I recall correctly.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

XyZspineZyX
04-08-2004, 11:02 AM
Luftluvr, GREAT pic of that museum P39 display!!! Where's that from???

====================
As far as the 30mm goes, I've hit P-38s in the tail boom with 30mm and had it come clean off: instant kill.

I believe there are cases where the shell passes through a part and explodes OUT THE OTHER SIDE; the big part of the damage a Mk108 round caused was due to the sizable explosion *inside* the structure blowing out and causing both incredible damage to componenets and extreme drag and shape deformation.

So, a shell that doesn't explode inside does much less damage.

Not ALL 30mm strikes are going to kill a plane, but at least a *majority* should.

Right now, I'm *fairly* happy with the damage the weapon causes. There are times when you get 2 or 3 strikes grouped and get no seeming damage to the target...but then there are "one hit, wing off" instances, too. I can live (die?) with that. At least it's not like the 20mm, where you can get a fat burst on target and not even get a stream of vapor.

WWMaxGunz
04-08-2004, 02:46 PM
From what Ivan posted on 4/4 there will be changes to the entire DM that make the 20's alone more effective so I expect the 30's to do some major damage.

I learned something from arcade mode, view from target and pause on playbacks. Many if not all of those big flash explosions are pure incendiary or tracer rounds. They only show one arrow where explosive rounds show many blossoming from the strike. So many times I used to think the 20mm Minengranate's (yes, spelled wrong I'm sure) were not affecting like they should and those were not MG rounds at all. Something to think about.


Neal

faustnik
04-08-2004, 03:28 PM
I was testing the Ju87G 37mm last with arcade on. It's a great tool. You can see exactly where your rounds hit to determine where you can penetrate the armor and where you can't. The hits show up as a white dot that "sticks" to the tank.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

WUAF_Badsight
04-09-2004, 03:19 AM
i never knew that either till i tried to do a little dispersion testing myself

that Chimney stack didnt know what was coming lol

Enofinu
04-09-2004, 03:19 AM
MaxGuns, thats what ive been doing for long time when in offline, got arcade settings On so can see what kinda ammo hits and where exactly. no much to think about it here

Enofinu
04-18-2004, 03:57 PM
where i can find weapon tables for this sim. i mean the ammo information. gun, ammo type, weight, speed and power.
id like to compate mk103 and mk108.
is there any differencies between these two cannons in damage??