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View Full Version : ACTUAL and VISUAL damage (a few thoughts)



F19_Ob
08-24-2004, 03:18 AM
Im one of those who are quite happy with FB (AEP).

As many of U I have also thought about Guns and damage, and I belive those who are unhappy may forget a few things in their tests, wich is the relation between "ACTUAL" and "VISUAL" damage aswell as the internal damage test where u are the one taking damage (this last one is very important too).

As u all know, the visual skin-damage are PRE-drawn, so after a number of hits with a certain weapon on a certain spot(hitbox or equivalent), the damage will show on the skin.

I have noticed that I usually can shoot down planes without or only minor "visual" damage on the skin.
I have tested the "visual" damage on almost all flyable planes and most seem to have damage to spare. Its very likely to shoot down a plane by clipping a wing or tail, burning engine, exploding fueltank, killing pilot or cutting cables without ANY, or very little visual damage on the skin.

On the bottom I describe briefly how my test was done
--------------------------------------------------------------------

My opinion is that this relation between the "actual" and "visual" damage is a little unfortunate, also for the FB Team, because their thorough work wont be seen very often.
Some planes have fantastic damage (like Il-2's) and some have even upsticking metal-edges around the damage (some il-2 and brewster for
example). Most dont know it but LaGG3's have a fairly extensive "visual" damagemodel
too. Even the less detailed productions (FiatG50, P40, and Hurricane) have good visual damage.

I've noticed that the best chanses for "much" visual damage before enemy goes down, is when U use medium weapons like 20mm cannon and/or heavy mg's. (they dont kill instantly)20mm cannons also are random in the blast and some rounds (perhaps a third) have no "actual" explosion. ( can be seen in arcade mode).
I have also examined the "edge" hits more carefully. Hits on the edges of wings , elevator and rudder makes a cannonburst often go off "outside" plane and no vital parts are hit. 20mm still do damage and the nonexploding rounds passes right through the plane hitting engines or other vital parts. The 30mm have much greater blast and will blow up most planes or take the tail or wing off, but those
edge hits may still just cripple it. The blast of the 30mm is constant though.

--------------------------------------------

Small caliber mg's like the ones on Hurricane and Gladiators and some others actually do harm, but again its more likely to shoot a plane down without any or minor "visual" skin-damage. Also no enemy will let another
plane shoot smallcalliber at him the long time its required to show hits. I tested a Hurricane to shoot at one wing on a bf109 from close range, Carefully so I didnt shoot it down too soon, and it made all damage visible. The problem is still that the plane easily gets so damaged and/or killed long before the visual damage will show.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------

One conclusion:
Personally I see no need to change any "actual" damagemodel since most planes quickly get severly damaged, its just not visible.

1 To make the "visual" damage to appear sooner would increase the probability of visual
skin-damage in the area close to, and "surrounding" a cannon hit.
Example: A cannonhit on an elevator could more often make "visual" damage on the rudder and perhaps the fin and part of the tailfuselage. This would enhance the psychological effect also. It would "feel" like the ammo make damage.

2 It would also enable a plane to return home from a battle with some holes more often without beeing deadly crippled.

3 Its fun to see damage when u fly planes with only smallcaliber ammo aswell.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---
How the test was done:
Both online and offline.

Many hundreds of short quickmissions where I shot carefully at various parts on the planes to reveal as much "skin" damage as possible before it went down or lost a wing or tail.
For example; about 100 missions where I shot at speciffic parts on wings with cannons only, then with mg's only.
I flew against enemies so I got more angles, so I hit "on" the wings instead of edges.
I also lined up 4 friendlies to be able to shoot from similar angles all the time, to do the "edge-hit" test.
Then I did numerous tests online (sitting in the ac taking hits) to determine how many hits it usually takes to be crippled beyond fightingcondition with various weapons.
In most allied planes one 30mm hit is enough to destroy controlls inoperable, A few times I could still roll only or use elevator.
The greatest work though was to examine all tracks again and again, and also in arcademode where the hits and cannonexplosions is available.

My workingpace is very low so just watching tracks took about 2 weeks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure Oleg and team have thought about this quite a bit, and BoB may be much improved regarding damage.
I'm also belive that it would take much more work to add new damage in fb than the Team have. So If we could hope for anything, it maybe could be a smaller change to 'when' the "visual" skindamage starts to show.
Just note that I'm not totally convinced this would fix everything, or that everybody would be happy.

This went kind of longish, but I hope it is constructive enough for contemplating on.
THNX for the word http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Tue August 24 2004 at 03:53 AM.]

F19_Ob
08-24-2004, 03:18 AM
Im one of those who are quite happy with FB (AEP).

As many of U I have also thought about Guns and damage, and I belive those who are unhappy may forget a few things in their tests, wich is the relation between "ACTUAL" and "VISUAL" damage aswell as the internal damage test where u are the one taking damage (this last one is very important too).

As u all know, the visual skin-damage are PRE-drawn, so after a number of hits with a certain weapon on a certain spot(hitbox or equivalent), the damage will show on the skin.

I have noticed that I usually can shoot down planes without or only minor "visual" damage on the skin.
I have tested the "visual" damage on almost all flyable planes and most seem to have damage to spare. Its very likely to shoot down a plane by clipping a wing or tail, burning engine, exploding fueltank, killing pilot or cutting cables without ANY, or very little visual damage on the skin.

On the bottom I describe briefly how my test was done
--------------------------------------------------------------------

My opinion is that this relation between the "actual" and "visual" damage is a little unfortunate, also for the FB Team, because their thorough work wont be seen very often.
Some planes have fantastic damage (like Il-2's) and some have even upsticking metal-edges around the damage (some il-2 and brewster for
example). Most dont know it but LaGG3's have a fairly extensive "visual" damagemodel
too. Even the less detailed productions (FiatG50, P40, and Hurricane) have good visual damage.

I've noticed that the best chanses for "much" visual damage before enemy goes down, is when U use medium weapons like 20mm cannon and/or heavy mg's. (they dont kill instantly)20mm cannons also are random in the blast and some rounds (perhaps a third) have no "actual" explosion. ( can be seen in arcade mode).
I have also examined the "edge" hits more carefully. Hits on the edges of wings , elevator and rudder makes a cannonburst often go off "outside" plane and no vital parts are hit. 20mm still do damage and the nonexploding rounds passes right through the plane hitting engines or other vital parts. The 30mm have much greater blast and will blow up most planes or take the tail or wing off, but those
edge hits may still just cripple it. The blast of the 30mm is constant though.

--------------------------------------------

Small caliber mg's like the ones on Hurricane and Gladiators and some others actually do harm, but again its more likely to shoot a plane down without any or minor "visual" skin-damage. Also no enemy will let another
plane shoot smallcalliber at him the long time its required to show hits. I tested a Hurricane to shoot at one wing on a bf109 from close range, Carefully so I didnt shoot it down too soon, and it made all damage visible. The problem is still that the plane easily gets so damaged and/or killed long before the visual damage will show.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------

One conclusion:
Personally I see no need to change any "actual" damagemodel since most planes quickly get severly damaged, its just not visible.

1 To make the "visual" damage to appear sooner would increase the probability of visual
skin-damage in the area close to, and "surrounding" a cannon hit.
Example: A cannonhit on an elevator could more often make "visual" damage on the rudder and perhaps the fin and part of the tailfuselage. This would enhance the psychological effect also. It would "feel" like the ammo make damage.

2 It would also enable a plane to return home from a battle with some holes more often without beeing deadly crippled.

3 Its fun to see damage when u fly planes with only smallcaliber ammo aswell.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

---
How the test was done:
Both online and offline.

Many hundreds of short quickmissions where I shot carefully at various parts on the planes to reveal as much "skin" damage as possible before it went down or lost a wing or tail.
For example; about 100 missions where I shot at speciffic parts on wings with cannons only, then with mg's only.
I flew against enemies so I got more angles, so I hit "on" the wings instead of edges.
I also lined up 4 friendlies to be able to shoot from similar angles all the time, to do the "edge-hit" test.
Then I did numerous tests online (sitting in the ac taking hits) to determine how many hits it usually takes to be crippled beyond fightingcondition with various weapons.
In most allied planes one 30mm hit is enough to destroy controlls inoperable, A few times I could still roll only or use elevator.
The greatest work though was to examine all tracks again and again, and also in arcademode where the hits and cannonexplosions is available.

My workingpace is very low so just watching tracks took about 2 weeks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm sure Oleg and team have thought about this quite a bit, and BoB may be much improved regarding damage.
I'm also belive that it would take much more work to add new damage in fb than the Team have. So If we could hope for anything, it maybe could be a smaller change to 'when' the "visual" skindamage starts to show.
Just note that I'm not totally convinced this would fix everything, or that everybody would be happy.

This went kind of longish, but I hope it is constructive enough for contemplating on.
THNX for the word http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by F19_Ob on Tue August 24 2004 at 03:53 AM.]

LLv34_Stafroty
08-24-2004, 03:23 AM
yes, visual damage is what 3D models make it to look. absolutely correct. taken in account here.
wonder that also there is visual damage like lightly smokin engine, sometimes its only visual http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
08-24-2004, 10:08 AM
S! F19_Ob!

Good post! Better objective view than most.
No exaggeration or emotional hype, most unusual.
Thank you for making that!

I think that as you suggest, damage shows quicker
may make the sim better to play. Except that some
damage graphics I have seen still flying should not
like with rudder missing but for a post... perhaps
the end-stage graphics should not come till the
plane is unflyable or the AI that can fly anything
should be told it is time to give up!


Neal

F19_Ob
08-25-2004, 01:49 PM
oh.....there U are http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 02:11 PM
MaxGunz, do you play in Online??

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 02:57 PM
was playing QMB, just tested some engine durabilities. I-16 at least is a wonder plane. u can shoot 4 20mm on its engine on head ons and nothign http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and at high deflection from above on engine, result = nothing. it gets hurt only when u shoot at engine from abobe right in nose of the AC, that works. had arcade on etc http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jugent
08-25-2004, 03:12 PM
The gladiator is imune to german fire to. It can take direct hits from a 20mm on one or more cylinders and noting happends.
Ive got a PC but he shoot me down anyway. You must have a good sense of houmor to play this game, if you think it shall be realistic.

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 03:17 PM
found possible bug in german AP or API or incendiary ammo. was again playing QMB, first used P51 lates model against early migs, 3 shots in mig wing, and wing had holes in it. then, took FWa6, and shot one AP or incendiary shell from cannon in same place of mig like with pony, and there was no sign of damage, sure does 20mm AP or incendiary make damage on wing too, but not in this game. if incendiary ammo doesn not go off in wing, it works like AP ammo. sad thing is that they do no damage at all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif bit wrong id say.
had arcade on so could that way to say what kinda round it was which hit the mig wing, no other arrows departed from that shot.

WWMaxGunz
08-25-2004, 10:22 PM
Haven't played online in a long time now. Take lots of kidney medicine that
makes me feel crappy for 2 years now. Surgery again after 4 years next month.
Also last few, over a dozen times I hooked up with my squad this PC either
locked up or I got kicked from the server for lag. A few times in 2 years
I have been able to fly with my WW brothers and none of those with voice comms
working, it locks in seconds then. Very sad. I have though and was very
active before the health troubles got me down. Maybe in October I will be
back and feeling better enough to troubleshoot this damned PC.

I do test things offline as I feel able, or I wouldn't know about using arcade
as a tool to tell what rounds are exploding. API are not even showing some
bullet holes now? Wish someone there gets serious about DM and either adds
a mode or compromises by upping hit power of some things, compensating for a
lack in the model mechanics. Last I saw, the HE's all seemed only to make
fragment and KE damage... and fragments are KE! **BUT** that is ONLY opinion!


Neal

LLv34_Stafroty
08-25-2004, 11:29 PM
yep, try to shoot something and try to hit target with ammo which dont explode, see that it doesnt make at least any graphical damage. but as far as i understand this game, graphical damage is like energy bar, every part has its own energy bar http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif always when wing get separated from plane, like 109 wing, it got Big holes in it, always .) not before that, well maybe when pullin hard in high speed.

Bearcat99
08-26-2004, 07:23 AM
MY only issue with the damage modelling is I guess more of an AI issue... Any of you ever shoot a target... have him smoking... on fire even.... and still following you around trying to shoot you down? In most cases the pilot would have bailed. Usually they do but then you get that one that actually follows you as if he isnt damaged until he explodes.. instead of immediateluy bailing out. I like that damage modelled into the cowling of the 109 and would like to see more of that type of stuff on all the planes.

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IMMERSION BABY!!

F19_Ob
08-27-2004, 05:45 AM
sry...... one last bump on this one

RAAF_Edin
08-31-2004, 03:37 AM
bomp..... I mean..... bump http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

--------------------------------------
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No76 Squadron RAAF

WWMaxGunz
08-31-2004, 04:10 AM
Strong agreement Bearcat! AI should do other but; how do they know when it's
safe to extend and run? For people it's easy, this AI may not know and only
run when it's impossible to stay inside as in being on fire or totally unable
to control the plane. Gee, they don't split-s and dive to run. Good at
aggression, poor at survival.

The AI flies with simplified FM, is the DM simplified too? I ran some weapons
tests in 2.0 where I went MP as server but no net connect. You can do that.
Felt to me like the AI planes were easier to shoot to bits, even with FW 151/20's
than non-MP offline.


Neal

Rab03
09-02-2004, 01:14 AM
Nope, DM has no relation to AI.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

WWMaxGunz
09-02-2004, 04:50 AM
A relief if true. I won't ask proof but how about why you are sure?
For all I know, you are connected to the development.


Neal

Rab03
09-03-2004, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
A relief if true. I won't ask proof but how about why you are sure?
For all I know, you are connected to the development.
Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I am not connected to the development.

I am sure because of thousands of hours of playing. If the vital parts are hit, AI goes down. If I'm in a period of lousy shooting I make repeated passes, which in turn produce all degrees of damage they should (and I sustain from time to time). If I can lock myself to the enemy tail, I can get deadly hits with short bursts and sometimes little or no visible damage-classic example of this is Rata, because it's fairly easy to kill a pilot.

The difference between AI shooting at you and you shooting at AI is that you shoot better than the AI. AI has the same lead, and if you maneuvre the certain way you will get damage all over. On the other hand, when you shoot at the enemy, you are more concentrated on the vital parts and the exact moment to press the trigger-thus you have less visible damage on the target.

Theoretically, single MG bullet can kill something vital and you wouldn't have a single sign that it did.

Damage models differ greatly from plane to plane. Co-relation between visible/actual damage is the tricky part, as it comes from DM. The more detailed DM, the more degrees of damage. Oleg once said that "real" DM is impossible to achieve, beacuse it would take supercomputer to reproduce a hole from each bullet that hits- so we should be satisfied with simplified DM which has general degrees of damage.

BoB will have greatly improved damage model-you can see that from pictures of 3d models- almost entire internal structure of aircraft is being modelled.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

WWMaxGunz
09-03-2004, 06:26 AM
That is still possible with a simplified AI DM. Simplified may mean as it was
in IL2. But I do accept that the DM's may all be the same even if FM's are not.


Neal

Rab03
09-07-2004, 07:07 AM
Day before yesterday I played 4 x 109F aces versus 4 x i-16 type 18 aces. All ratas down. The interesting thing about it was the kill distribution:
1 rata downed by pilot kill (few holes)
1 rata downed by cutting control cables
1 rata downed by ripping one wing off
1 rata exploded.
One of Bfs was shot down. Those Shkas MGs really gave him bad time. During several bursts damage on the a/c grew progressively, and his wings were full of holes, vertical stabilizers were in holes, he was smoking, etc, and when the engine stopped by the last burst, it was all over for him.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)