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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 08:59 PM
I don't no what you think about these but I find it interresting to compare the two great families of VVS fighters.

On the one hand the Yaks are smaller, easier to fly, and can often turn tighter.

On the other hand, the Las are tougher, better armed, and, from 1943, more powerfull.

Personnally, I feel that until 1943, Yak-1s and Yak-1bs are better and after that the La-5FNs and La-7s are getting the upper hand.

BTW, I don't know why the Yak-9U is often compared to the La-7, don't you feel it is far less efficient ?

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 08:59 PM
I don't no what you think about these but I find it interresting to compare the two great families of VVS fighters.

On the one hand the Yaks are smaller, easier to fly, and can often turn tighter.

On the other hand, the Las are tougher, better armed, and, from 1943, more powerfull.

Personnally, I feel that until 1943, Yak-1s and Yak-1bs are better and after that the La-5FNs and La-7s are getting the upper hand.

BTW, I don't know why the Yak-9U is often compared to the La-7, don't you feel it is far less efficient ?

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:15 PM
I like the Yak3 better than the La5FN/La7. Even more so after the patch.

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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:22 PM
The LA-7 can B&Z the shiat out of the Yak family.


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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:23 PM
Like your P 39?


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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:27 PM
NN_Veverka wrote:
- Like your P 39?



The N1 is forced to turn fight the 1B which is a very tough proposition. I would say it would take one heck of a good pilot to win in that N1.

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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:33 PM
Well, later Yaks, especially 9U, seem like a more general purpose type fighter than La. Just an impression--La's win dogfights. Yaks win wars.

Aside from the rather misplaced Yak~3, which is more popular in internet dogfight servers? Here, Lavochkin beat his rival. A very poor engineer Yakovlev was, never anticipating all the internet Aces (which by now must far outnumber the real life World War 2 VVS fighter pilots--an interesting idea).

Hint:: Yak~3 was delayed for almost 2 years and must be compared to basic Yak~9, both had same early engines. Yak~9U should be compared to Yak~3U as both had same later engines. Be glad VVS never needed 3U by 1944 or this would be a very one sided late war dogfight sim for those who use FB for dogfighting.



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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:45 PM
Gem,

Not sure why you think the La7 is a better B&Z plane. After patch the La7 breaks up at lower speed than Yak3, and doesn't climb any better. It's guns for some reason seem weaker than the Yak3's too.

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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:47 PM
Yaks, especially Yak-3, have too few ammo for me. La is better, German planes are best in this aspect.

Yaks are also nice to fly, but Yak-9K and 9T are so useless. Only few were built in the war, and in the game they are killers against bombers and even fighters, but in reality they were used against tanks.

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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 09:51 PM
Dionysos1844

60% of kills for the Yak9T were planes../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The 9K was for tanks.

Yak3 has low ammo (11 seconds). It will make you a better shot.

Wait for the patch. You won't like the La7 anymore. It bleeds speed like crazy in turns,and the rollrate is patehetic.

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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:07 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Gem,
-
- Not sure why you think the La7 is a better B&Z
- plane. After patch the La7 breaks up at lower speed
- than Yak3, and doesn't climb any better. It's guns
- for some reason seem weaker than the Yak3's too.



More power and higher speed equals better B&Zer. Regardless of whether the Yak can climb equal or dive to a higher top speed it wont catch an LA-7 level, which means the LA will control the fight and has the best option to B&Z, all things being equal of course. Which is not the case most times. If the Yak could easily out climb the LA then things would be different as it could gain it's E advantage and over come the engine power disadvantage.


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XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 10:36 PM
Yaks are tougher in this game I think, so I would be in a Yak. But if it were all about getting home alive, I would hop in an Lagg.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:51 AM
Gem,

More power, but more weight too. Have you tried the patch yet? The La7 is so sluggish at high speed, it's easy to evade it's attack. I like the nible handling of the Yak3. I liked it the first time I flew it, and that hasn't changed. Sluggish planes turn me off.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 01:23 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Gem,
-
- More power, but more weight too. Have you tried
- the patch yet? The La7 is so sluggish at high speed,
- it's easy to evade it's attack. I like the nible
- handling of the Yak3. I liked it the first time I
- flew it, and that hasn't changed. Sluggish planes
- turn me off.


So you like nimble planes?? I thought you liked the P-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 01:30 AM
I've liked the P-51 since I was 10 years old (50 yesrs ago).

Nothing will ever change that, but I haven't flown it in FB yet. I may not like how it flys../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Time will tell.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:17 AM
Personally I like the Yak series much more. The Yak is tougher, handles better, especially concerning roll rate, and has better visibility. IMHO, the only thing the La has over the Yak is speed, and not enough to make it a better aircraft. Due to the low ammo load the Yak can be hard to get kills in, but the La's twin 20mm's seem underpowered anyway. The Yak allows me to break the engagement much easier. The most praise I have recieved online is when flying the Yak-1B, IMHO it is an awesome plane even in '43, and it made me a better shot. It out-turns P-39 and 109F, actually in out-turns anything except the really slow planes. The Yak-9 on paper should be awesome, but it isn't in FB 1.0, I haven't tried it in 08 yet so who knows. I have respect for the La series, but I have a ton of seat time in the Yak and I prefer it's qualities over the La's. Just be prepared to return to base often when flying the Yak to reload.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:25 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Gem,
-
- More power, but more weight too. Have you tried
- the patch yet? The La7 is so sluggish at high speed,
- it's easy to evade it's attack. I like the nible
- handling of the Yak3. I liked it the first time I
- flew it, and that hasn't changed. Sluggish planes
- turn me off.



No I haven't tried the patch.
My wife gets aggravated at me for not opening my mail until three days after I receive it. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
Trust me when I say I can wait 9 days for the real deal.


I like nimble planes as well, but when it comes right down to it, I would pick the P-47 (2nd favorite) over the Hurricane any day.
So I guess being nimble isn't the most important thing to me.



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:38 AM
i find the Yak & LA to be equally strong in different places on the plane
sometimes the Yaks are super hard to hurt , same with the LAs
the Yak 3 is better in turns over the LAs ( pre-patch )
the LA-5FN is a better turner than the LA-7 with the 3 cannon LA-7 being worst
the Yak 9k has more cannon shots than the Yak 9T but the T is eaiser to hit with & is a slight better TnB plane

the Yaks are slower than the LAs ( pre-patch ) but have good Accell & dive & climb like the LA-7 has
i hunt BFs in the LA-7 & i hunt Hurris & P-39 in the Yak-3
i fly the BFs & P-39 as much as i fly LAs & Yaks

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:47 AM
i dunno, both i guess



Message Edited on 07/21/0310:50PM by RS_LT_Aligator

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:02 AM
Yaks were tougher then LAs? In RL only 1 20 mm cannos hit was enough to disable them, especially Yak 3 was vulnerable to even MG (13mm) fire!

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:18 PM
Yep, I agree.. Yaks are way too strong.. I believe most German and Finnish aces considered LA-5/LA-7s to be most dangerous opponents. At the moment Yaks may have an advantage.. I hope the patch makes Yaks more vulnerable.. after that I would rather take a La-7 over Yak3, anytime.. It is like 190 vs 109.. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif 109 better turner, but much weaker.. 190 a all-around-fighter.. good at everything.. like Lavochkins..

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:38 PM
FireBird77 wrote:
- Yaks were tougher then LAs? In RL only 1 20 mm
- cannos hit was enough to disable them, especially
- Yak 3 was vulnerable to even MG (13mm) fire!
-
-

Where did you get that ?

Stories of Yak 9s coming back with a hole through wingspar etc. Of course one 20mm round in the right place etc.



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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:40 PM
My favourite is the Yak 3, although I agree that it seems a little too strong in FB.

The squad 'normandie niemen' chose the Yak 3 over any other plane offered in VVS inventory (including the american lend lease planes).

IMO it would be the best dogfighter of the war at low altitude.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:07 PM
Stay behind a bomber in a Yak and see if the gunner can kill your engine. Well they can't, no matter how much you stay there. Try the same in Bf-109. I understand that Oleg believes that M-105 are stronger than DB-605, but how much tougher? Maybe they could take a bullet more, but in FB they can take 50 with no effects.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:17 PM
Just another point. I have read a few accounts about how tough the Yak series was, apparently it could sustain quite a bit of damage. I have also read that the La-5/7 engine was very vulnerable, especially for a radial type. I never read any accounts about the Lavochkins toughness, and their production quality was know to be less than that of the Yaks.

Huck, I do agree that Yak engine is way too tough, but the fact is that your screen will go black if you get anywhere near a bomber. IMHO the Yak is one of the hardest planes in the game to attack bombers with. Every time I play a Yak campaign I almost always die as soon as I attack a bomber, or even a Stuka. Pilot kills happen VERY easily in YAK. If attacked properly, and with MK-108, the 109 has no problem downing bombers if a significant speed advantage is used by climbing then diving on bomber. If 109 only has 20mm cannon then it is trouble. But like I said, I agree the Yak engine seems incredibly tough and the 109's engine does seem weak, hopefully it will be looked at.

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Message Edited on 07/22/0304:18PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:20 PM
I have read plenty of stories about Yaks. And many reports of only one hit and they are down.. due to weak and ligh construction. Right now Yaks are way too strong. Sometimes stronger than 190s.. And never engine damaged, like Huckebein said..

Yak-3s are best dogfighters unded 5000 m. Atleast when it comes to Turn&Burn-fighting.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:33 PM
Just to clarify, I have said 100 times on this forum that I think that Yaks are way too tough in FB. Still I think they should be tough and not fragile like a 109. Again, I am basing this on what I have read. And nothing is stronger than a 190 in FB, not even the Yak, P-47, or IL-2. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:37 PM
the La's are faster.


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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:40 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Stay behind a bomber in a Yak and see if the gunner
- can kill your engine. Well they can't, no matter how
- much you stay there. Try the same in Bf-109. I
- understand that Oleg believes that M-105 are
- stronger than DB-605, but how much tougher? Maybe
- they could take a bullet more, but in FB they can
- take 50 with no effects.



My goodness, you're a hard core Luftwhiner aren't you!

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:43 PM
BpGemini wrote:
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Stay behind a bomber in a Yak and see if the gunner
-- can kill your engine. Well they can't, no matter how
-- much you stay there. Try the same in Bf-109. I
-- understand that Oleg believes that M-105 are
-- stronger than DB-605, but how much tougher? Maybe
-- they could take a bullet more, but in FB they can
-- take 50 with no effects.
-
-
-
- My goodness, you're a hard core Luftwhiner aren't
- you!

This is your comment regarding Yak DM?

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:51 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Just to clarify, I have said 100 times on this forum
- that I think that Yaks are way too tough in FB.
- Still I think they should be tough and not fragile
- like a 109.

Not true. On planes with similar wing loadings tougher airframe has the plane with higher dive speed limit (if the max load factor is the same - on most fighters is 7). Even Emils have a better dive speed limit therefore the airframe is tougher. If the wing loading is not the same then tougher is the plane with higher wing loading.

All german planes have higher dive speed and late war german planes have higher wing load so they necessarely have a tougher airframe. This should be represented in the sim.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:08 PM
Yaks seem pretty tough when the AI fly them. They don't seem so tough when I fly them. On hit, and i'm bailing. Or else it's the dreaded pilot kill, which come pretty easy in the Yak.

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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:33 PM
I love the handling characteristics of the Yak3, but those pilot kills come far too frequently than I care to endure. I've switched back to my favorite La...the La5 and La5fn. A happy medium when flying the VVS planes (which hasn't been much lately. I'm having a love affair with the 109 G-10)





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XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:33 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
- kyrule2 wrote:
-- Just to clarify, I have said 100 times on this forum
-- that I think that Yaks are way too tough in FB.
-- Still I think they should be tough and not fragile
-- like a 109.
-
- Not true. On planes with similar wing loadings
- tougher airframe has the plane with higher dive
- speed limit (if the max load factor is the same - on
- most fighters is 7). Even Emils have a better dive
- speed limit therefore the airframe is tougher. If
- the wing loading is not the same then tougher is the
- plane with higher wing loading.
-
- All german planes have higher dive speed and late
- war german planes have higher wing load so they
- necessarely have a tougher airframe. This should be
- represented in the sim.
-
-


Thats not completely true of course. Only IF planes have similar construction, and IF they have similar manufacturing quality... For example, compare the plane with very bad manufacturing quality to the plane with very good. What we have at high speed? Plane with bad quality will have much more gaps at skin so air will rip it apart - even if its quite tought construction... Another example - P51. Very good dive speed, but not exactly known for its toughtness.
So low dive speed is not equal construction weakness.
Yet another example - planes with single wing spar VS plane with many wing spars... First _may_ have higher dive speed (or may not), but second is definitly more resistant to battle damage.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 08:55 PM
Is Buzz done dancing around saying "I have the patch!"? Man, you spend so much time on the boards I question whether you actually ever fly....When do you hit 6,000 posts? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I can only speak pre-patch (I'm gonna wait for the real deal and, yes, I did a bit of the beta patch testing on the offline campaign -- Yak-3 and Stuka -- but I'm sure it's been tweaked many times since then). So I'm not going to opine on what might be in the final patch.

In whatever sim I'm flying, I fly only Allied on line. Maybe because I'm old enough (I'm very old -- Buzz's generation) to remember who were the good guys and who were the bad guys in WWII. So I can't really speak to the LW planes, although I've toyed with all of them off line.

All this is, of course, IMHO, and please understand I fly only Coops on line and then at least half my missions are in Sturmos. So none of it is aimed at the DF Arena capabilities. This includes fighter versus fighter and fighter versus bomber.

Best Airplane? My criteria? Read my signature/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

You have to differentiate between the "light" Yaks (Yak 1, 1B and 3) and the "heavy" Yaks (Yak-7B and all the Yak-9 versions).

The only "heavy" Yak that's worthwhile in a dogfight is the first version Yak-9; it can out turn a Yak-1B but it is a tad slower. Excellent 1942 dogfighter. All the Yak-9s after the original are inferior to the Yak-3. Too slow and/or too clumsy.

1941: I fly the Rata (still the best dogfighter in the game and -- next to the Chaika, which was too slow and used almost exclusively as a ground attack plane in RL -- the most fun to fly) and the Yak-1.

1942: Yak-1B or Yak-9 (tie).

1943 another tie: Yak-3 or LA-5FN (the early LA-5 and 5F are not that great). The Yak-3 maneuvers better but lacks firepower. The LA-5FN is a better bomber (and FW) killer because of the twin cannon. But the Yak-3 is more fun to fly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

1944-45: LA-7. The Yak-3 is more agile but, late war, you really NEED the firepower AND the speed. There's so much armor on the German fighters that a Yak-3 with its 1 20mm and 2x.50 MGs often can't punch through it. And the K-4 and Dora can disengage from a Yak-3 at will. An LA-7 can chase them down (or run away from them). The LA-7 is so fast that it reminds me of the Spit14 in WarBirds. You have to constantly work the throttle setting or you're going to end up as a lawn dart. It's not as forgiving as the LA-5FN. It take lots of practice. It's the plane I spend a lot of time with in QMB (my practice arena).

As to the vulnerability of the Yak-3-- I think it's very fragile. Doesn't take much to blow the back end completely off and major pieces (like control surfaces) fly off in a power dive.

I've never really thought much about the engine vulnerability. I've certainly had plenty shot out. As someone else mentioned, when you're bomber hunting in a Yak-3 the tailgunner will PK you so fast it doesn't matter what happens to the engine. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Like everyone, I'm curious to see what changes the patch makes. I don't believe the 08 version everyone is using is the final setup (although it's probably close). If Oleg has dumbed down the LA-7, that would be a shame. It's not uber at all the way it is. I would call it a good match for the Dora, later 109Gs and 109K.

My .02.

Aloha.

ttt
tttiger
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-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."



Message Edited on 07/22/0310:07AM by tttiger

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:08 PM
tttiger

You'd be surprised that ispend less than 30 min a day on this forum. I don't just sit here waiting for posts. I'm in and out fast. Sometimes when i'm watching TV, i'll post during commercials. I always post when i'm eating, or reading a book. Over almost two years, it's not alot of posts if you get involved.


btw..Have I told you I have the patch../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Da Buzz
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ZG77_Nagual
07-22-2003, 09:27 PM
Buzz - you may want to check this out. I agree the yak3 is a great handling plane - and it looks like the yak9u windscreen is a bit lighter in the patch - by the way. Anway - if I'm not mistaken while the yak is quicker - roll, instantaneous turn etc. - the la7 has a substantially better sustained turn.
I'd like to see the 9u get it's acceleration.


http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 11:02 PM
tttiger, the Yak-3 isn't available in '43. I agree with much of what you said though. For me it is:

1941: Yak-1
1942: Yak-1B (or Mig-3U)
1943: Yak-9T or La-5FN (depending on opposition)
1944: Yak-3 (La-7 is awesome but I am big into situational awareness and the Yak-3 has the best visibility bar-none. I think the firepower of the 2 planes is similar, as La's cannons seem underpowered, you just get more firing time in La. The speed of the La-7 is certainly nice though.)

And Nagual, I'm very interested in seeing how the 9U is after the final release, could be interesting.

Huck, I said that I only put stock in pilot accounts, I read them with great interest. I never draw conclusions about aircraft from charts, numbers, amount of wing-loading, etc. If a LW pilot says the Yaks absorbed alot of punishment (and they have), then that is good enough for me. The 109 was notoriously fragile by pilot accounts as well.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg



Message Edited on 07/22/0310:11PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 11:45 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Huck, I said that I only put stock in pilot
- accounts, I read them with great interest. I never
- draw conclusions about aircraft from charts,
- numbers, amount of wing-loading, etc. If a LW pilot
- says the Yaks absorbed alot of punishment (and they
- have), then that is good enough for me. The 109 was
- notoriously fragile by pilot accounts as well.


You can't tell anything from pilot reports, they are always contradictory. This is the reason why we have test flight buddy.

Let's take the wing for example. Against it there are 2 forces, weight and drag. In a turn at 7 load factor means that aircraft weights 7 times its normal flight (not accelerated) weight.

Let's take for example Yak3 and 109G2:

wing loading at 7 LF
Yak3 1270kg/m^2
Bf109G2 1352kg/m^2

drag at max speed dive:
Yak3 1350lb at 405mph(IAS)
Bf109G2 2400lb at 465mph(IAS)

As you can clearly see Bf109G2 has a much tougher wing since it can resist at much stronger stress. Early russian fighters like Yak1 had much higher limitations. There is no doubt that Bf-109 had a tougher airframe than all russian fighters.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:20 AM
Huckebein_FW,

I don't think you can simply say that the plane with the highest wingloading & highest max velocity is "stronger" in the sense of taking damage. Consrtuction

There are also a lot of variables involved. I think BuzzU's post about Yaks seeming different depending on wther you're flying in them or shooting at them is relevant as well.

huck wrote:"There is no doubt that Bf-109 had a
- tougher airframe than all russian fighters.
- "


. i am willing to accept that the 109 has it's good & bad points but find it hard to believe your statement based upon my reading.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

Message Edited on 07/22/0307:25PM by Saburo_0

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:29 AM
Ky, I'm at work (very slow day, can you tell?), so I'll have to check the date in my reference books at home at home (the dates on the Ubi FB planes page are all screwed up). I thought it appeared in late 43 but I could be wrong.

If so, I stand corrected.


To clarify: the Yak-3 can out-fly anything in the sky late war and as far as getting on a LW fighter's six, it easily outshines the LA-7. I love flying it. It's just the lack of hitting power combined with my horrible gunnery skill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif that makes me favor the LA-7. I'm not even sure what the Yak-3 loadout was for that single 20mm or the two .50s. I can get Messers with it but FWs are just pure dumb luck. The LA-5 and LA-7 both had 200 round per gun.

The Yak-1B/3 remind of flying Spitfires in other sims. "RTB ammo" becomes the most used radio call. I read somewhere the typical Yak-3 mission lasted only 20 minutes. Like the Spit, it was an interceptor.

LOL, Buzz, S! In very rough numbers, I figure IL2 has been out for about a year and a half now. Say 500 days. At 5,000 posts (and you must be well over that by now), that's an average of 10 posts every day. Noit knocking it, just amused. Many of your observations are right on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aloha,



tttiger
6 "Black Lions" GvIAP, VVS

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:35 AM
ttiger

I hate to bring up the patch again, but it seems the Fw190 is easier to knock down now. I've gotten three of them with one load of a Yak3.

See why I keep mentioning the patch. I'm trying to give guys something to look forward too.



btw..I almost forgot. Did I tell you I have the patch?

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:36 AM
Huck wrote,

"You can't tell anything from pilot reports, they are
- always contradictory. This is the reason why we have
- test flight buddy."

From numerous pilot accounts you can see some similarities and consistency, and that is what I draw my conclusions from. I can certainly get more from them than I can from the most biased Luftwhiner on the forum, which is you in case you haven't figured that out. Your posts are more humorous than they are informative, they're a joke.

And I'm not your buddy.

Cheers

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Typhooncountry.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:39 AM
Really Buzz? In 08 I found the 190's DM to be about the same. Against AI I can kill more of them simply because they will go into uncontrollable spins when hit sometimes, not due to damage. You don't have 09 do you?

<center>
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Message Edited on 07/23/0302:41AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 05:27 AM
Okay, I stand doubly corrected.

First of all, the Yak-1B remained in production until July 1944. It was replaced by the Yak-3, which went into production in March 1944,was combat tested in the spring of 1944, and which began arriving at front line regiments the following in August. The Yak-1B was the Soviet response to the bf109G2. It was outclassed by the G6, especially in the vertical.

The average mission duration for a Yak-3 was 40 minutes, rather than the 20 I stated, according to "Soviet Combat Aircraft."

I looked through several books and web sites and, although I found the ShVAK was replaced in the later Yak-3s by an improved 20mm, the ShA-20M, I can't find the number of rounds loaded for either gun. Nor can I find the number of rounds for the .50s. I did discover the second .50 wasn't added to the Yak-3 until the autumn of 1944.

During the Yak-3s service trials, 20 LW fighters (type not mentioned) and two Stukas were shot down with the loss of only two Yak-3s. On June 16, 1944, 18 Yak-3s faced off against 24 German fighters. A total of 15 German planes were shot down with the loss of only one Yak-3.


In the horizontal, a Yak-3 could catch an FW190A within two turns and a bf109G within three. And it could outclimb the 109G.


I still would chose the LA because it was faster, had more firepower and was almost as maneuverable. And because I'm a lousy shot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





tttiger
6 "Black Lions" GvIAP, VVS

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:10 AM
One point which, in my mind, favours the Lavochkins is that they are much better for ground attack, as they can take damage (particularly in the wings and the engine) far better than the Yaks.

That said, the Yak-3 is surely a better pure dogfighter, but, carefully flown, later Las can do as well while not being so vulnerable to ground fire or bomber gunners.

As far as the armament is concerned, that's the same as above, I think it's really OK to fight against fighters, but against bombers and in ATG attack, it's not ideal.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 03:40 PM
Yak-3 was pure air superiority fighter - there was not even attempt made to make it carry the bombs. Because of a short range it was not suitable for bomber escort either.
ShA-20M cannon was experimental light weight cannon - it had never entered mass production.
The only one Yak-1M (Doubler) was armed with this cannon and two UBS machineguns.

There were only 197 with one ShVAK and one UBS machinegun build, the rest of 4004 Yak-3 planes were build with one ShVAK (20mm motor-cannon, 120 rounds of ammo) and two UBS(12.7mm machineguns, 150 round per MG).

Starting from April of 1945 Yak-3P entered production armed with one B-20 (20mm motor-cannon, 120 rounds) and two B-20S (20mm synchronized cannom,130 rounds per cannon). B-20S - was just enlarged version of UBS machinegun, same as installad on three cannon La-7. Its weight was almost two times less then that of ShVAK cannon (25kg vs. 42kg) and it had same muzzle velocity and rate of fire. Total 596 Yak-3P planes made.

There was also Yak-3T tested with one N-37 (37mm motor cannon, 25 rounds) and two B-20S (20mm cannons, 100 rounds per cannon)


AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 07/23/0310:44AM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 07:08 PM
Thank you, Bogun, I was really getting frustrated trying to find the Yak-3 loadout.

"Soviet Combat Aircraft" is a bit vague (and the info is scattered around a much larger discussion of the plane; poor organization) on the guns for the Yak-3, saying a ShA-20M was used in the prototype but it wasn't in full production at the time the Yak-3 was introduced. It leaves a clear impression they were used later. Your info seems to be more definite. Thank you!

The stuff about the Yak-3P, etc. is interesting (firepower must have been greatly improved) but not very useful since it came out in April and the war was over in May. Oven Oleg wouldn't model such an arcane variant. Or would he? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyway, it makes my point. La-7: Either 2 or 3 ShVak 20mm with 200 rounds apiece (400-600 total) rounds versus Yak-3 with 120 Rounds of cannon and 2x.50 with 150 rds (300 total) each. Cyclic rates of the cannon and the MG all appear about the same, somewhere around 1,800 rpm/

Add to the fact that the .50 is grossly undermodeled in FB (maybe they will fix it in the patch).

Speed and firepower of the LA-7 still get my vote, even though the Yak-3 is a better turnfighter. Again, all the krupp steel armor and my lousy gunnery is the determining factor http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!





tttiger
6 "Black Lions" GvIAP, VVS

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me."

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 08:40 PM
tttiger wrote:
- Anyway, it makes my point. La-7: Either 2 or 3
- ShVak 20mm with 200 rounds apiece (400-600 total)
- rounds versus Yak-3 with 120 Rounds of cannon and
- 2x.50 with 150 rds (300 total) each.

You have some errors in what you think La armament was.
Here, for you convenience the Russian fighter planes armament:

Yak-3 One 20mm ShVAK cannon (motor-cannon, 120 rounds) and two 12,7mm UBS synchronized MG (150 rounds per each)
La-5FN Two 20mm ShVAK cannons (180 rounds per cannon)
La-7 Three 20mm B-20 cannons (130 rounds per cannon)
La-9 Four 23mm NS-23 cannons (290 rounds total for all)
Yak-3P One 20mm B-20 cannon (motor-cannon, 120 rounds) and two 20mm B-20S synchronized cannons (130 rounds per cannon)
Yak-9U One 20mm ShVAK cannon (motor-cannon, 120 rounds) and two 12,7mm UBS synchronized MG (150 rounds per each)
Yak-9UT One 23mm NS-23 cannon (80 rounds) + Two 20mm B-20 cannons (120 rounds per cannon)
or One 37mm N-37 cannon (30 rounds) + Two 20mm B-20 cannons (120 rounds per cannon)
or One 45mm N-45 cannon (25 rounds) + One 20mm B-20 cannon (120 rounds)

In 1945 Yak-3 (just like La-7 even with 3 cannons) was "end of life product" - the war was coming to an end and for the peacetime there were some other priority - planes had to last considerably longer then mixed construction Yak's and La's were designed to last.
Also, VK-105PF2 engine was outlived its usefulness (1250 hp on takeoff). Flight characteristics of Yak-3 with heavier VK-107A (1500 hp on takeoff) engine were very close to another Yak plane already in production - Yak-9U and it was full metal construction (there were actually two versions - one mixed and one full metal).

There was another interesting plane produced during WWII by Yakovlev - Yak-9UT.
<fonts=+2>This plane did took part in air combat in the numbers greater them many of Russian, German or Allied plane in the game already or soon to be added!</fonts>

It was a ".modification of a series-produced Yak-9U with the same engine and propeller but more capable armament. Instead of ShVAK 20 mm cannon and 2 UBS 12.7 mm machine guns of the Yak-9U, Yak -9UT featured 37 mm N-37 engine-mounted cannon and 2 synchronized B-20S 20 mm cannons. Provisions were made to install such engine-mounted guns as B-20M, NS-23, or N-45. To install the last of these, it was necessary to remove the port-side mounted synchronized B-20S gun."
Source:
Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War
Vol.1, Single-Engined Fighters
Yefim Gordon & Dmitri Khazanov

".Yak-9UT VK-107a (with the NS-23 motor-cannon (not N-37) and with two
synchronous guns B-20s cannons) was in series production from February through
May 1945. In all 282 aircrafts were built.

In the latter the weeks of war one of the units, rearmed with Yak-9UT,
destroyed 28 enemy aircraft in 19 air battles, including 27 FW-190A-8 and 1
Bf109G-6, with the lost of two of its own aircrafts."

Source:
Yak fighter planes of the Great Patriotic War period.
A.T.Stepanetz
ISBN 5-217-01192-0

There are not going to be much work involved to make it flyable - this plane's externals, internals, FM were same or very similar to Yak-9U already in the game!
Hope Oleg will add it to the lineup of Russian planes with the patch or add-on.





AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942


Message Edited on 07/23/03 03:42PM by Bogun

Message Edited on 07/23/03 03:42PM by Bogun

Message Edited on 07/23/0303:44PM by Bogun

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 09:07 PM
A good book for you Yak lovers is "Yakovlev's Piston-Engined Fighters" by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Khazanov. I've worn mine out reading it.

i hate to keep bringing this up, but wait until the patch before you say the La5/La7 is better than the Yak3. The way the La's bleed energy, and the even poorer roll rate. has put it on the bottom of my list. Sluggish is a kind word to describe the La7 in the patch. The yak3 still feels as nimble as in non patched FB. As for the armament between the two planes. The La's do have 18 seconds of two 20mm compared to 11 seconds of one 20mm/.50mgs of the Yak. However, the Yak seems to hit harder. The Yak climbs as good as the La7, and better than the La5FN. It also breaks apart at a higher speed on dives. The La7 has about 25-30 km/h faster top speed, but that's just not enough for me to pick it.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:54 PM
Well.. Yaks are definately too strong at the moment.. or maybe its the undermodelled MK108, since it takes over 5 hits mostly to down a La-7 or Yak-3.. And only couple of rounds from La-7 / Yak-3 is enough to kill BF-109's controls, or blow the tail hell off.. and it takes quite a lot of punishment from that German 13 MM Mg..

Sure FW-190 take bit too much punisthment, but nothing compared to Yaks.. HOW can be such a light weighted plane be so much tougher, than for example BF-109.. sounds ridiculous to me..

IMHO It gives a huge advantage for VVS-planes, since the main opponent, ME-109 allways gets controls jammed after only one shot..or tail blown off, or oils in the cockpit blocking the view.. and in the same time VVS-planes require several shots with MK108..

And you can't compare FW-190 to Yaks/La5/La7s in dogfights.. well maybe after the patch..
Hopefully /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif




____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:00 PM
Vipez-

If you read carefully. I said after patch. Isn't that what's important? We will all be flying that version ina few weeks.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 12:51 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- Vipez-
-
- If you read carefully. I said after patch. Isn't
- that what's important? We will all be flying that
- version ina few weeks.
-'


Well I doubt that, atleast according to betapatches.. Yak Damage model seems to say the same.. maybe the Mk108 gets bit stronger, but still..

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 04:02 PM
You all forgot about the Yaks' wonderful cockpit!>>>

http://hitech.technion.ac.il/~feldman/India/Manali-yak.jpg


Fur is much more comfortable than metal on the old toush.

This is the Yak 9D Long range model.

P.S. Maybe we should start whining for the Yak9UT....



http://perso.wanadoo.fr/yak11/autresyaks/df002.jpg

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 05:07 PM
No need to whine, just respectfully ask to add Yak-9UT to the line of Russian planes. It should be very easy, but I can see LW guys complaining already! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If we ever get Tempest, Ta-152, Spit XIV, P-51D (and we already have Bf109K-4) it would be great to have Yak-9UT as one of the last pistone engined planes which actually took part in the war.

I also dream of F8F Bearcat and Do-335, at list for 1946 project.

AKA_Bogun

---------------
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.

- Tom Clancy

---------------
Ilsa: "That was the day the Germans marched into Paris."
Rick: "Not an easy day to forget. The Germans wore grey, you wore blue."
Ilsa: "Yes. I have put that dress away. When the Germans march out, I'll wear that dress again."

- Casablanca, 1942