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High-Horse
09-05-2017, 06:27 PM
We're probably all tired of seeing these threads but I haven't seen this specific set of ideas posted so I wanted to throw it out there. This is mostly a "confirmed damage/cinematic reduction" solution. This is from a 1v1 perspective.

First
- Fully charged Jab no longer knocks down
- - Instead, stagger lasts long enough to confirm an uncharged heavy and stun lasts long enough to hide a fully charged heavy.
- - - Basically, a fully charged heavy will confirm a fully charged Jab but a fully charged Jab does not confirm a fully charged heavy.

Second
- Kick can knock down an OOS enemy but startup against OOS enemy is slower, like Glad toestab.
- Buff Eagle Talon by 5 damage
- - Kick/GB mixup into Eagle Talon is OOS punish. No more knockdowns while stamina is green.

Lastly
- We've all seen this, no wallsplats from Jabs.

So hopefully taking the knockdown from charged Jab reduces the confirmed cutscene damage without gutting the hero. I don't think they're too bad to fight in Duel but the 5 seconds of watching confirmed damage can get old and frustrating. I'm fine with being punished for making a mistake, but if we could move that along and get back to the fight, that'd be great.

What do ya think?

Edit: Additional Balance Changes (moving power from Punish to Mixup)

- Kick can chain into both heavy or light, hit or miss
- - Animation speeds up vs enemy with stamina, slows down vs enemy without
- A blocked light can chain into a Jab
- Jab now has 3 charging levels, first stun lasts 1 second, 2nd level 1.5 seconds, third 2 seconds
- - First level does not splat, second level does, third level confirms an uncharged heavy
- - - First level recovery safe to CGB on dodge, 2nd and 3rd level cannot CGB if enemy dodges
- Jab can be soft feinted into Kick at any level
- Superior Block on 2nd and 3rd level of heavy startup (great idea, Raime)

Hopefully with the above changes and these additional changes, Cent relies less on punishes to start his poor mixup, and now has a beefed up mixup to open enemies up.

mr_celcius
09-05-2017, 06:54 PM
Props for actually offering a solution; most people just stop at the fact that centurion is broken and leave it to ubi to come up with answers to the problem. (Not pointing fingers or anything, I'm totally guilty of that too)

I'd combine your solutions with decreased stamina or increased stamina costs, but overall I like your idea.

S0Mi_xD
09-05-2017, 06:59 PM
We're probably all tired of seeing these threads but I haven't seen this specific set of ideas posted so I wanted to throw it out there. This is mostly a "confirmed damage/cinematic reduction" solution. This is from a 1v1 perspective.

First
- Fully charged Jab no longer knocks down
- - Instead, stagger lasts long enough to confirm an uncharged heavy and stun lasts long enough to hide a fully charged heavy.
- - - Basically, a fully charged heavy will confirm a fully charged Jab but a fully charged Jab does not confirm a fully charged heavy.

Second
- Kick can knock down an OOS enemy but startup against OOS enemy is slower, like Glad toestab.
- Buff Eagle Talon by 5 damage
- - Kick/GB mixup into Eagle Talon is OOS punish. No more knockdowns while stamina is green.

Lastly
- We've all seen this, no wallsplats from Jabs.

So hopefully taking the knockdown from charged Jab reduces the confirmed cutscene damage without gutting the hero. I don't think they're too bad to fight in Duel but the 5 seconds of watching confirmed damage can get old and frustrating. I'm fine with being punished for making a mistake, but if we could move that along and get back to the fight, that'd be great.

What do ya think?

GIVE THIS MAN A BERSERKER BUFF!!!! *clap*

Would be perfect - and it would solve both, 1v1 and 4v4.

I would add, also abit higher stamina cost on melee attacks (jabs and kicks) - it is ridiculous how much they can spam without getting out of stamina, an opener attack, should be something "expensive" to use, because it confirms free dmg.
And finally, at least, let charged heavy feint into GB cost stamina -.- , it is really a strong tool, and even the best player can be chaught by it.
It's more of a guessing, the second charged heavy, is no problem, but the first one can be canceld nearly at the full charge animation, and that makes it really risky to parry

But i would be happy with OPs suggestion and some stamina cost for melees and GB feint.

Reduced stamina dmg won't be necessary if wallsplash on jabs is gone.

High-Horse
09-05-2017, 08:56 PM
Thanks for the support. I think with def meta changes, this would be enough to ease up the lengthy confirmed damage sequence. I get what they're doing, but it just takes forever.

Without wallsplat jabs, there would also be a lot less cutscene damage. I was thinking a Kick should wallsplat instead (if it doesn't already, I can't remember right now). Btw, which abilities flows into Kick? More mixups with Kick could compensate for losing wallsplat Jabs. Kick is slower so there's a better chance of escaping compared to Jab, but there's also GB to mix in, so you'd either get splatted from a Kick or from dodging into a GB to a wallsplat.

Just trying to think of ways to improve other areas so Cent is still a challenge to fight against. I think improving his mixup game and keeping wall punishes a core of the kit, but let's speed up and lighten his punishes by changing them up just a little.

Btw, reducing 16 hard feints to 8 is useless and still twice as much as anyone else. If there was an award for Most Missed Point, someone working on Cent just got it. I think going the Glad route would be great: Big pools, fast regen, but huge stam costs. Everyone should more or less be built around this, imo. You wouldn't run OOS as fast from enemy stamina attack, but stam management would be more crucial. Stamina-damaging melee attacks would be less spammy and used more tactically to pressure opponents or run them OOS to punish poor management/overreaching. With the more punishing OOS state coming, these kinds of changes could help make things more skillful.

S0Mi_xD
09-05-2017, 09:34 PM
The mainpoint here is, they didn't learn out of their mistakes.

They nerfed Shugoki knockdown because it was OP with a safe heavy, but still added a hero who can pretty easy pull off a knock down any time he gets you into a wall or you missing to parry his charged unblockable, and gets 65 dmg +.

Knockdowns should never be accessed that easy.
Valkyries sweep is only safe on GB but this gives her no advantage, she gets a heavy both ways.

About the wallsplat, it's fine to get good dmg out of it, but Centurion brings you OOS, can pin you down in a corner and dodging his jab you need to be 100% on point, his infinite wall combo is still there.
It is dodgabel but only with sheer luck.
He has his tools for good mixups, light into GB, kicks, heavy into GB feint.

His hardfeint stamina was just a bug fix, no act of balance like you say ... I don't believe Ubi, that they really wanna balance centurion, only if it happens i can believe it.
They nerf Warlord into the ground, even if his only negative was, that he had nearly no disadvantage.
But Centurion is pretty much untouched.

From all i can see, ubi has no Dev in the For Honor team, who understands the act of balance. And to rely on "data" like win/lose ratio is blasphemous towards us as a the game community.

High-Horse
09-05-2017, 09:56 PM
I actually found it really funny how much they nerfed Warlord, as if to say to the monstrous public, "Please, take the Warlord, leave Cent alone!" I don't understand why they don't try out some of the communities suggestions, like no wallsplat on Jab is an easy request to test.

That said, I do think some claims against Cent is exaggerated, but only validates by how frustrating Cent can be to fight. I think the point is to move most of his power away from punishes and more into his mixups.

If I miss a parry or mess up and get grabbed, I deserve to eat a fully charged heavy, but the ensuing cutscene is my main gripe, because this seems to be the main focus of Cent. In the same scenario with suggested changes, the uncharged heavy after a fully charged jab would be a little less punishing, and instead of the fight resetting back to neutral, get both parties back to fighting. As I'd be coming out of a stun, the Cent could be using the chained heavy to start a mixup or gamble with fully charging it for another reactable punish.

Main point, nerf punish, buff mixup.

Knight_Raime
09-06-2017, 10:26 AM
We're probably all tired of seeing these threads but I haven't seen this specific set of ideas posted so I wanted to throw it out there. This is mostly a "confirmed damage/cinematic reduction" solution. This is from a 1v1 perspective.

First
- Fully charged Jab no longer knocks down
- - Instead, stagger lasts long enough to confirm an uncharged heavy and stun lasts long enough to hide a fully charged heavy.
- - - Basically, a fully charged heavy will confirm a fully charged Jab but a fully charged Jab does not confirm a fully charged heavy.

Second
- Kick can knock down an OOS enemy but startup against OOS enemy is slower, like Glad toestab.
- Buff Eagle Talon by 5 damage
- - Kick/GB mixup into Eagle Talon is OOS punish. No more knockdowns while stamina is green.

Lastly
- We've all seen this, no wallsplats from Jabs.

So hopefully taking the knockdown from charged Jab reduces the confirmed cutscene damage without gutting the hero. I don't think they're too bad to fight in Duel but the 5 seconds of watching confirmed damage can get old and frustrating. I'm fine with being punished for making a mistake, but if we could move that along and get back to the fight, that'd be great.

What do ya think?

Let me see if I can follow...
Jab no longer knocks down or splats. if I land a fully charged jab I can get a 100% confirmed uncharged heavy. Can you clarify what you mean by "hide a fully charged heavy?"

Kick changes. I can only agree to making it slower when the person is OOS if the kick becomes faster than it is currently when the person has stamina. It's already stupidly easy to avoid and punish by most of the cast. It only nets a light or first hit of zone. Kick is never guaranteed unless you land a quick throw at the moment. It knocking down an OOS opponent would be fine.

Talons buff is fine. Jab having no splat though i'm currently not okay with. In order to do the current combo you need to switch your guard back and forth (unless assassin) and the timing is a bit sensitive. My problem with removing the splat is it means the jab becomes essentially useless. Especially if we're removing the knock down from it completely. If you dodge a jab currently it can give most people a free GB.

Though I have a few ideas if ubi is 100% open with tinkering jab. For one i'd say like kick a fully charged jab should be able to knock someone down while they are OOS. That way the combo of pin into charged jab into talons still exists. Just harder to access. This in my opinion should happen regardless. Then we can go one of 2 ways here with jab. Either jab can still wall splat if fully charged to set up other mix ups. Which would be fine because a fully charged jab in your suggestion doesn't net a full heavy anymore.

OR they can make it so the light off of the jab that's guaranteed counts as the second light in his combo of light light heavy. If UBI is against/can't add in combos for heros then this would be the thing to do for both the light off of jab and the light off of kick. Both would get him into his combo mix up which is what a light into heavy combo would serve for mostly besides starting from neutral.

I also think it's a fantastic idea to bring centurion over to the gladiator side and make his moves cost more but he gets stamina back faster. His damage cost ratio would start to feel more fair that way.

Assuming the defensive meta patches go live mostly as we'eve read he will no longer have his light parry punishes. He can't parry GB anymore making splatting harder. his damage potential will drop a lot. So giving him easier access to his light light combo and some alternative behaviors to make him feel a bit more fair but still combo intensive would be great ways to buff him. I really hope they will make his zone cancelable on hit. and superior property on heavy start up like conq so he has a way in from neutral.

S0Mi_xD
09-06-2017, 11:40 AM
Let me see if I can follow...
Jab no longer knocks down or splats. if I land a fully charged jab I can get a 100% confirmed uncharged heavy. Can you clarify what you mean by "hide a fully charged heavy?"

Kick changes. I can only agree to making it slower when the person is OOS if the kick becomes faster than it is currently when the person has stamina. It's already stupidly easy to avoid and punish by most of the cast. It only nets a light or first hit of zone. Kick is never guaranteed unless you land a quick throw at the moment. It knocking down an OOS opponent would be fine.

Talons buff is fine. Jab having no splat though i'm currently not okay with. In order to do the current combo you need to switch your guard back and forth (unless assassin) and the timing is a bit sensitive. My problem with removing the splat is it means the jab becomes essentially useless. Especially if we're removing the knock down from it completely. If you dodge a jab currently it can give most people a free GB.

Though I have a few ideas if ubi is 100% open with tinkering jab. For one i'd say like kick a fully charged jab should be able to knock someone down while they are OOS. That way the combo of pin into charged jab into talons still exists. Just harder to access. This in my opinion should happen regardless. Then we can go one of 2 ways here with jab. Either jab can still wall splat if fully charged to set up other mix ups. Which would be fine because a fully charged jab in your suggestion doesn't net a full heavy anymore.

OR they can make it so the light off of the jab that's guaranteed counts as the second light in his combo of light light heavy. If UBI is against/can't add in combos for heros then this would be the thing to do for both the light off of jab and the light off of kick. Both would get him into his combo mix up which is what a light into heavy combo would serve for mostly besides starting from neutral.

I also think it's a fantastic idea to bring centurion over to the gladiator side and make his moves cost more but he gets stamina back faster. His damage cost ratio would start to feel more fair that way.

Assuming the defensive meta patches go live mostly as we'eve read he will no longer have his light parry punishes. He can't parry GB anymore making splatting harder. his damage potential will drop a lot. So giving him easier access to his light light combo and some alternative behaviors to make him feel a bit more fair but still combo intensive would be great ways to buff him. I really hope they will make his zone cancelable on hit. and superior property on heavy start up like conq so he has a way in from neutral.

1. Full charged jab no longer knocks down, but stuns you enough to hit a normal heavy (which isn't hard because the heavy is 600ms fast) = Pindown + full jab combo dmg shrinks from 60 to 50. Still good combo dmg.

2. Visual stun effect on Jabs (like on raider stun tap) would be long enough to cover a full charged heavy animation.

3. Talons would be a OOS punish now, and if kicks and full charged jabs can knock down OOS enemies this would be fine.

4. The problem with normal jab and wallsplat is, that it is still very hard to get out of this stunlock because of the weird tracking of jabs - get hit one time against a wall and your chances to get out are under 1%.
But it would be fine, with those changes above, that normal jabs, can't be punished with a GB anymore, or you could start a light combo after it to prevent GBs.

5. Your second idea, that the light after a jab counts as a chain light would be good.

6. Superior block on heavy would be to much, becaue his heavy is already pretty fast.

7. With the zone i could agree if it is cancelable, but only if the reduce the dmg, 3 times 25 dmg, thats the highest total dmg of all zones. 15, 20, 25 would be a way to go.

High-Horse
09-06-2017, 03:36 PM
I don't want Jab to be useless, and I don't think taking wallsplat from it would do that. It's still a quick followup that stuns and drains stam. Does a Glad's dodge+GB stun wallsplat because if not, same idea for its use. Perhaps increase the recovery on an uncharged Jab to make it safer, or let it flow into a light or something to avoid a GB on reaction. Also yes, I just meant the stun lasts long enough that the enemy will never see an indicator for a fully charged heavy and have to react based on animation.

In that light, I agree Kick should be sped up when used against a green bar and wallsplats, and against OOS is just a little slower. That way, there's a mixup with either a Jab or a Kick. What do they flow into? I know if Kick lands it confirms a light and if it misses can be flowed into a heavy. More flowing could help mix up.

The idea with the Talon buff is because without a knockdown except if they're OOS, it wouldn't be used nearly as much, and Eagle Talon is the only thing I really find frustrating when fighting a Cent. The damage is fine, it just takes forever and think that combo damage could be dealt another way. A less accessible Eagle Talon would probably be fine, like landing Kick after a fully charged Jab. (fully charged heavy>fully charged Jab>Kick>Eagle Talon). The stamina drain would have to come down, right?

SuperBlock on heavy is very interesting. It's fast enough that it could work but slow enough that you need a good read rather than reflexes, like HL.

Knight_Raime
09-06-2017, 06:39 PM
1. Full charged jab no longer knocks down, but stuns you enough to hit a normal heavy (which isn't hard because the heavy is 600ms fast) = Pindown + full jab combo dmg shrinks from 60 to 50. Still good combo dmg.

2. Visual stun effect on Jabs (like on raider stun tap) would be long enough to cover a full charged heavy animation.

3. Talons would be a OOS punish now, and if kicks and full charged jabs can knock down OOS enemies this would be fine.

4. The problem with normal jab and wallsplat is, that it is still very hard to get out of this stunlock because of the weird tracking of jabs - get hit one time against a wall and your chances to get out are under 1%.
But it would be fine, with those changes above, that normal jabs, can't be punished with a GB anymore, or you could start a light combo after it to prevent GBs.

5. Your second idea, that the light after a jab counts as a chain light would be good.

6. Superior block on heavy would be to much, becaue his heavy is already pretty fast.

7. With the zone i could agree if it is cancelable, but only if the reduce the dmg, 3 times 25 dmg, thats the highest total dmg of all zones. 15, 20, 25 would be a way to go.

Yeah re reading it now I understand. I was just super tired. couldn't tell the difference between 2 words :F
I should have clarified that the superior frames would only start if you started charging your heavy. Not just throwing the heavy out.

Knight_Raime
09-06-2017, 06:43 PM
I don't want Jab to be useless, and I don't think taking wallsplat from it would do that. It's still a quick followup that stuns and drains stam. Does a Glad's dodge+GB stun wallsplat because if not, same idea for its use. Perhaps increase the recovery on an uncharged Jab to make it safer, or let it flow into a light or something to avoid a GB on reaction. Also yes, I just meant the stun lasts long enough that the enemy will never see an indicator for a fully charged heavy and have to react based on animation.

In that light, I agree Kick should be sped up when used against a green bar and wallsplats, and against OOS is just a little slower. That way, there's a mixup with either a Jab or a Kick. What do they flow into? I know if Kick lands it confirms a light and if it misses can be flowed into a heavy. More flowing could help mix up.

The idea with the Talon buff is because without a knockdown except if they're OOS, it wouldn't be used nearly as much, and Eagle Talon is the only thing I really find frustrating when fighting a Cent. The damage is fine, it just takes forever and think that combo damage could be dealt another way. A less accessible Eagle Talon would probably be fine, like landing Kick after a fully charged Jab. (fully charged heavy>fully charged Jab>Kick>Eagle Talon). The stamina drain would have to come down, right?

SuperBlock on heavy is very interesting. It's fast enough that it could work but slow enough that you need a good read rather than reflexes, like HL.

Problem is glad can dash to do his bash. Centurion can only do his jab if a hit connects or is blocked. and in both cases it's dodgable by both normal and reflex guards.
That's why I suggested 2 seperate ways to buff up jab. Because it already has niche use and taking splat away would take even more use away.
I've never tried to land a kick after a charged jab. I don't think that's confirmable.

Superior block on charge start up*

High-Horse
09-06-2017, 07:01 PM
Ah charged heavy superblock sounds really hard, I'd be all for it.

The problem with jab wall splat is the timing to get out of a confirmed heavy from wallsplat into Jab is really tight, and latency/input lag or even a corner can very quickly mess someone up. Also pretty sure a wallsplat confirms a fully charged heavy which confirms a fully charged Jab. It just takes one bad dodge from a Jab to start this. I don't feel like it's a proportional punish for the mistake.

There's heavy soft feint into GB to get the wallsplat, is a Jab into wallsplat on top of that necessary because of the current kit? It's a strong mixup for sure. Is there a way to replace the splat while making Jab safer? Maybe I'm just not understanding Cent's kit enough to know what it needs to function. Maybe there's a fix kinda like your PK light suggestion, where the first light that hits makes the second slower, or if the first whiffs, the second is faster. What if Jab had a half charge like a heavy, and the half charge can splat, while the full charge knocks down?

Edited to add: I think lights and heavies should both chain into Jabs and Kicks, and Jabs and Kicks should both chain into lights and heavies, while neither confirms any damage. Speed up Kick, give Jab a half level that can splat, uncharged does not. Soft feinting Jab into Kick would also be super cool. (I think Cent's are easy to fight because, despite being "mixup intensive" their combos are pretty much on a predetermined rail based on conditions e.g. miss a kick, only a heavy can come out after. More mixup to open, less punish to get to mixup)

High-Horse
09-06-2017, 07:54 PM
I just put some more of these ideas into the OP. Honestly I feel like Cent can be hard to deal with at first, but ultimately feels like it's not fully fleshed out once you get used to vsing them. The knockdown combo is just ridiculously long, like using the longest execution in a Duel. It's just annoying and completely puts combat on pause.

High-Horse
09-06-2017, 08:07 PM
Another idea, what if the input for Jab was Back+GB (same as toestab) and you can now Quickgrab from a heavy hit as well as a light.

UbiNoty
09-07-2017, 12:16 AM
Thanks for the great suggestion! It's always much more appreciated when we get really good, constructive ideas to pass along, and I always make sure to star them for special attention by the devs :).

I think you've brought forth some really great ideas here and while it is mostly in the 1v1 POV, and we still need to weigh 4v4s when we make changes, a good idea is still a good idea. So I'll make sure to forward it to the team and hopefully they can get some really good inspiration from your suggestion.

High-Horse
09-07-2017, 12:59 AM
Thanks for the great suggestion! It's always much more appreciated when we get really good, constructive ideas to pass along, and I always make sure to star them for special attention by the devs :).

I think you've brought forth some really great ideas here and while it is mostly in the 1v1 POV, and we still need to weigh 4v4s when we make changes, a good idea is still a good idea. So I'll make sure to forward it to the team and hopefully they can get some really good inspiration from your suggestion.

Why ty! I tried to keep Dominion in mind with these suggestions. I really wanted to like Centurion when I heard it was going to be "mixup intensive" but it's not quite what I expected. Maybe that's because the defensive meta emphasizes punishes too much.

Also not sure how I'd personally take suggestions for doing my job, but I appreciate your being receptive.

Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 08:13 PM
Ah charged heavy superblock sounds really hard, I'd be all for it.

The problem with jab wall splat is the timing to get out of a confirmed heavy from wallsplat into Jab is really tight, and latency/input lag or even a corner can very quickly mess someone up. Also pretty sure a wallsplat confirms a fully charged heavy which confirms a fully charged Jab. It just takes one bad dodge from a Jab to start this. I don't feel like it's a proportional punish for the mistake.

There's heavy soft feint into GB to get the wallsplat, is a Jab into wallsplat on top of that necessary because of the current kit? It's a strong mixup for sure. Is there a way to replace the splat while making Jab safer? Maybe I'm just not understanding Cent's kit enough to know what it needs to function. Maybe there's a fix kinda like your PK light suggestion, where the first light that hits makes the second slower, or if the first whiffs, the second is faster. What if Jab had a half charge like a heavy, and the half charge can splat, while the full charge knocks down?

Edited to add: I think lights and heavies should both chain into Jabs and Kicks, and Jabs and Kicks should both chain into lights and heavies, while neither confirms any damage. Speed up Kick, give Jab a half level that can splat, uncharged does not. Soft feinting Jab into Kick would also be super cool. (I think Cent's are easy to fight because, despite being "mixup intensive" their combos are pretty much on a predetermined rail based on conditions e.g. miss a kick, only a heavy can come out after. More mixup to open, less punish to get to mixup)


I just put some more of these ideas into the OP. Honestly I feel like Cent can be hard to deal with at first, but ultimately feels like it's not fully fleshed out once you get used to vsing them. The knockdown combo is just ridiculously long, like using the longest execution in a Duel. It's just annoying and completely puts combat on pause.


Another idea, what if the input for Jab was Back+GB (same as toestab) and you can now Quickgrab from a heavy hit as well as a light.


Well yeah it's not a preportional punishment. But you kind of already fixed the problem by saying charged jab no longer gives a charged heavy. Regardless though I did mention that Jab only splatting when charged would be a good tool to have. It depends. in my experience playing centurion most people are getting good at teching out of the GB in the soft feint mix up.
I already said i'd be fine with the splat being removed if uncharged jab was safe from GB and thhe light that it gives counted as a second light from his light light heavy combo.

As far as jab as concerned this is everything i'd do as a cent main:
~charged jab no longer gives charged heavy. Can give uncharged heavy.
~charged jab no longer knocks down opponent when they have stamina. But will knock them down if they are OOS.
~charged jab can wall splat. All other times do not splat.
~Jab gives a light which counts as a second light in his light light heavy combo.

The proposed changes allow the original combo to exist without breaking the standard rules of combat. It also removes the current wall combo. Makes it less risky to use so more might try it. and gives a way into his heavy mix up.

I see where you are going but the proposed solution doesn't make him more mix up intensive. His mix up literally is the heavy soft feint mix up. So we need to give him other tools to get into that. Ideally he'd have a light heavy combo. This would be one way in from neutral. His other would be superior blocking on starting his heavy charge. From there he's got a few different options.
If he lands a jab he gets a light. and in my idea that means he can then mix into his heavy mix up or not. Same applies to his kick. But his kick also currently gives the first hit of his zone. If we made his zone cancelable on hit (which means confirmed hit or just blocked) that's 2 things he can do from kick.
And lastly he has his parry counter. Which does give an uncharged heavy for free as of this moment. Meaning he can go into his mix up combo from there.

If kick was sped up it would be an option that he could use as pressure technically. But to improve on that I think he should also be able to kick by dodging to the sides. We also both agree that kicking should knock someone down when they are OOS. And kick would be slower when they are OOS. These changes would make kick a more viable option. The only thing we would need to address after these changes would be quick throw.

In my original post about the nerfs/buffs for him I suggested just making it harder to tech as a buff on it. Though I think on top of that being able to do it after a light or a heavy would be a good way to buff it. Though the problem at this point becomes input. As after a light you just tap x. but if you do that after a heavy or during your heavy you soft cancel into an actual GB. We'd either need to change the input on both. Or remove his soft feint combo. Which I don't want to do. So your back+GB suggestion would be nice here.

Finally the only purpose I see for letting jab be input like that is to allow it to be used from neutral. Which would be a nice thing to have. But I don't think it would be entirely needed if all other changes i've posted in this reply came in. I say this because from neutral he has several options already. He could light into heavy, use heavy charge as a reaction to an attack, dodge and kick which goes into his mix up or parry into parry counter. And he could always (though I don't recommend it) start the mix up from neutral with the first heavy.

High-Horse
09-07-2017, 08:50 PM
Well yeah it's not a preportional punishment. But you kind of already fixed the problem by saying charged jab no longer gives a charged heavy. Regardless though I did mention that Jab only splatting when charged would be a good tool to have. It depends. in my experience playing centurion most people are getting good at teching out of the GB in the soft feint mix up.
I already said i'd be fine with the splat being removed if uncharged jab was safe from GB and thhe light that it gives counted as a second light from his light light heavy combo. So in this case, speed up the animation for uncharged Jab so by the time someone dodges and attempts a GB, Cent has recovered and can CGB, and also would make landing Jab easier/more consistent. One problem I'm seeing is that if one fully charged heavy lands by a wall, the charged Jab wallsplat will confirm another fully charged heavy, etc. I suppose that's already a big problem currently. Getting knocked down into Eagle's does end this combo, but I hate Eagle's so much, I'm not sure how to address it further. I suppose the answer is don't get hit by the charged heavy or anything that confirms it.


As far as jab as concerned this is everything i'd do as a cent main:
~charged jab no longer gives charged heavy. Can give uncharged heavy.
~charged jab no longer knocks down opponent when they have stamina. But will knock them down if they are OOS.
~charged jab can wall splat. All other times do not splat.
~Jab gives a light which counts as a second light in his light light heavy combo.

The proposed changes allow the original combo to exist without breaking the standard rules of combat. It also removes the current wall combo. Makes it less risky to use so more might try it. and gives a way into his heavy mix up. Yeah this is great, especially using special moves to count as combos. It also removes the Talon combo unless you're OOS, which should be open to all kinds of punishment.


I see where you are going but the proposed solution doesn't make him more mix up intensive. His mix up literally is the heavy soft feint mix up. So we need to give him other tools to get into that. Ideally he'd have a light heavy combo. This would be one way in from neutral. His other would be superior blocking on starting his heavy charge. From there he's got a few different options.
If he lands a jab he gets a light. and in my idea that means he can then mix into his heavy mix up or not. Same applies to his kick. But his kick also currently gives the first hit of his zone. If we made his zone cancelable on hit (which means confirmed hit or just blocked) that's 2 things he can do from kick.
And lastly he has his parry counter. Which does give an uncharged heavy for free as of this moment. Meaning he can go into his mix up combo from there. Right, I was trying to give more mixup options to be able to get into the heavy to soft GB. What I meant before was that almost everything he does is restricted. After a kick, he can only Light or if it misses can only cancel recovery with a Heavy. If he could Heavy out of a Kick (not confirmed), it would open up the soft feint GB a little more. Also soft feinting Jab into Kick could catch bad dodgers or slow rollers and again start a mixup to either confirmed second Light of combo into Heavy or Heavy into options. Kick should also count as a combo move.


If kick was sped up it would be an option that he could use as pressure technically. But to improve on that I think he should also be able to kick by dodging to the sides. We also both agree that kicking should knock someone down when they are OOS. And kick would be slower when they are OOS. These changes would make kick a more viable option. The only thing we would need to address after these changes would be quick throw.

In my original post about the nerfs/buffs for him I suggested just making it harder to tech as a buff on it. Though I think on top of that being able to do it after a light or a heavy would be a good way to buff it. Though the problem at this point becomes input. As after a light you just tap x. but if you do that after a heavy or during your heavy you soft cancel into an actual GB. We'd either need to change the input on both. Or remove his soft feint combo. Which I don't want to do. So your back+GB suggestion would be nice here. What if Jab was available from side dodge+GB as a way to use them from neutral? If Jab could soft feint into Kick, I wouldn't want Jab to be too accessible, even a little riskier from neutral. That would leave some inconsistent inputs, so maybe a better suggestion is for Quickgrab to be on Back+GB, but cannot be started from neutral (that's basically regular GB anyway), so maybe your suggestion is better (Kick from side dodges as well as forward). I like that a lot better.


Finally the only purpose I see for letting jab be input like that is to allow it to be used from neutral. Which would be a nice thing to have. But I don't think it would be entirely needed if all other changes i've posted in this reply came in. I say this because from neutral he has several options already. He could light into heavy, use heavy charge as a reaction to an attack, dodge and kick which goes into his mix up or parry into parry counter. And he could always (though I don't recommend it) start the mix up from neutral with the first heavy. Right, I like that Jab is a combo type move and not a starter. That's what I thought Kick was for. In this case, are you talking about adding a LHH combo? I thought I saw that above.

Good breakdown, problems and solutions are starting to make more sense.

S0Mi_xD
09-07-2017, 09:01 PM
As far as jab as concerned this is everything i'd do as a cent main:
~charged jab no longer gives charged heavy. Can give uncharged heavy.
~charged jab no longer knocks down opponent when they have stamina. But will knock them down if they are OOS.
~charged jab can wall splat. All other times do not splat.
~Jab gives a light which counts as a second light in his light light heavy combo.
.

Charged wallspalt would be to much time waste.

1. If wallsplat would be similar to GB wallspalt, you could make a infinite combo
2. If 1. isn't the case because of a shorter wallsplat after full jab or recovery after a full jab doesn't give the a guaranteed charged
-> the wallsplat would give the cent no advantage, because after a fully charged jab, you would be still able to hit a normal heavy.
That means with or without wallsplat 55 dmg are guearanteed.
But the wallsplat stun would give opponents less time to react to centurione, and centurions attacks are pretty fast compared to the rest of the rooster.

The wallsplat would be pretty useless for centurion and would be space for potential abuse.

Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 09:24 PM
@high-horse

New reply so it's not a confusing mess for me to respond to.

Yes for the speed up part. For the second part let me try to explain. In the current wall splat combo you don't fully charge your jab. It's about half charged. Which means that with the proposed changes the wallsplat combo would no longer exist. I will have to go test today. But i'm like 80% sure that a wall splat doesn't confirm a fully charged jab. If it does I can see how the combo would still exist in certain situations. So. We will hold off on that till I can test it today.

Cool thing is I didn't really touch on his potential combos/mix ups for splats or OOS with my post. He in theory should have more options with both due to said changes proposed.
Technically he can zone after landing a kick. Not just light. But I see your point. I'm not really fond of the idea of him soft feinting one unblockable with the other. As jab has a charge mechanic. Regardless of what a mess that might be button wise (in my head anyway) I don't think it's really needed for him. The biggest counter to a centurion is dodge. Giving him a way to handle dodges consistently just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Kick is better from dodging because it gives 2 options (kick into light which starts his soft feint game in these changes...and kick into zone cancel) and it's also more punishable. Jab would be not possible to punish in your idea if we decided to speed up it's animation to make it GB immune. Because likely if it can't be GB'ed consistently dodge attacks won't really work. Gladiators bash dodge is fine because it is a hook from the side instead of the front like jab making it harder to land on a whim. and it also doesn't give confirmed damage. Where as jab does.

No. My bad on wording. Jab if landed gives a light which is the second light in centurions current Light>light>heavy combo. When I said heavy charge as a reaction to an attack I was referring to my change where we added superior block property on the start up frames of a charged heavy. If you were referring to something else could you please quote it so I can clarify?

The only new combo I was planning on added was light into heavy. and by new combo I mean what's listed in his move list.

Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 09:28 PM
Charged wallspalt would be to much time waste.

1. If wallsplat would be similar to GB wallspalt, you could make a infinite combo
2. If 1. isn't the case because of a shorter wallsplat after full jab or recovery after a full jab doesn't give the a guaranteed charged
-> the wallsplat would give the cent no advantage, because after a fully charged jab, you would be still able to hit a normal heavy.
That means with or without wallsplat 55 dmg are guearanteed.
But the wallsplat stun would give opponents less time to react to centurione, and centurions attacks are pretty fast compared to the rest of the rooster.

The wallsplat would be pretty useless for centurion and would be space for potential abuse.

I need to check if a wall splat guarantees a fully charged jab.
If it doesn't splatting is still a good thing to do. Which I can explain if you like.

I don't see how it can be both useless and abusable by centurion. can you please clarify?

High-Horse
09-07-2017, 10:40 PM
No. My bad on wording. Jab if landed gives a light which is the second light in centurions current Light>light>heavy combo. When I said heavy charge as a reaction to an attack I was referring to my change where we added superior block property on the start up frames of a charged heavy. If you were referring to something else could you please quote it so I can clarify?

The only new combo I was planning on added was light into heavy. and by new combo I mean what's listed in his move list. So LH would be its own combo then? I thought you meant LHH, where the first heavy is the charged blockable and the second is the charged unblockable, but you're saying light into charged unblockable heavy? That makes sense now if so.

Also, I doubt the superior block on a charged heavy would be that usable on reaction, especially vs fast attacks. I see it as more of a baited punish for good reads/predictions.

edit: yeah i got what you meant about the light after a jab counting as a the second in the LLH chain, Kensei has done the same since launch with GB and Throw counting as the first and second of her chains.

more edit:

I'm not really fond of the idea of him soft feinting one unblockable with the other. As jab has a charge mechanic. Regardless of what a mess that might be button wise (in my head anyway) I don't think it's really needed for him. The biggest counter to a centurion is dodge. Giving him a way to handle dodges consistently just doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

I see your point, and I'm not trying to tie up all his weaknesses (I do not main Cent), I was just thinking of Highlander's ability to soft feint kick into grab, reminds me of cent's heavy into gb and wanted to see more of that kind of mixup in his kit. Maybe the reason HL has that mechanic is because he's so slow? It's definitely unique.

Knight_Raime
09-07-2017, 11:31 PM
So LH would be its own combo then? I thought you meant LHH, where the first heavy is the charged blockable and the second is the charged unblockable, but you're saying light into charged unblockable heavy? That makes sense now if so.

Also, I doubt the superior block on a charged heavy would be that usable on reaction, especially vs fast attacks. I see it as more of a baited punish for good reads/predictions.

edit: yeah i got what you meant about the light after a jab counting as a the second in the LLH chain, Kensei has done the same since launch with GB and Throw counting as the first and second of her chains.

more edit:


I see your point, and I'm not trying to tie up all his weaknesses (I do not main Cent), I was just thinking of Highlander's ability to soft feint kick into grab, reminds me of cent's heavy into gb and wanted to see more of that kind of mixup in his kit. Maybe the reason HL has that mechanic is because he's so slow? It's definitely unique.


Yes light into heavy would be it's own combo.
And no it wouldn't be doable on reaction. it's specifically there for someone who is parry happy and doesn't cover up their missed attempt with a feint. Against a patient player it won't do much and centurion would have to get in some other way.

Highlander does need that because while he's similar to centurion in that he's weak against dodges he's much slower than centurion. And doesn't have much aggression tools. Centurion is more of an aggressor and highlander is more of a reader....if that makes any sense.

S0Mi_xD
09-08-2017, 01:24 AM
I need to check if a wall splat guarantees a fully charged jab.
If it doesn't splatting is still a good thing to do. Which I can explain if you like.

I don't see how it can be both useless and abusable by centurion. can you please clarify?

After a normal jab you can't connect a fully charged jab on wall splat.

But after a fully charged jab, you can go into unblockable charged heavy (the chained one) as far as i know, and this one goes pretty quick.
Sure :) would like to read it. I went through some scenarios, but can't find one where it makes any difference for the cent, only for the player who is tortured by the cent.

What i mean is, for a fighting game it is a pretty long timespan you will be stunned against the wall, as an example, in 4v4 modes, you would stuck pretty long and you will be open for a easy gank.
I mean, it would be nice to have abit of a chance to get out of it. (also i said potential abuse, maybe a player finds a way with a exploit - who knows)
As a cent, you have still the chance to charge and softfeint into GB, or mix up in various ways.

Combowise it makes no difference for the cent, but it makes a huge difference for the player who will be stuck again in stuns.

I mean, even with the changes in this thread (which we 3 agree, except me with wallsplat :D) he would be still a beast in the right hands.


But ok, now i wanna know your explanation about why splatting is a good thing to do ^^

Knight_Raime
09-08-2017, 01:38 AM
After a normal jab you can't connect a fully charged jab on wall splat.

But after a fully charged jab, you can go into unblockable charged heavy (the chained one) as far as i know, and this one goes pretty quick.
Sure :) would like to read it. I went through some scenarios, but can't find one where it makes any difference for the cent, only for the player who is tortured by the cent.

What i mean is, for a fighting game it is a pretty long timespan you will be stunned against the wall, as an example, in 4v4 modes, you would stuck pretty long and you will be open for a easy gank.
I mean, it would be nice to have abit of a chance to get out of it. (also i said potential abuse, maybe a player finds a way with a exploit - who knows)
As a cent, you have still the chance to charge and softfeint into GB, or mix up in various ways.

Combowise it makes no difference for the cent, but it makes a huge difference for the player who will be stuck again in stuns.

I mean, even with the changes in this thread (which we 3 agree, except me with wallsplat :D) he would be still a beast in the right hands.


But ok, now i wanna know your explanation about why splatting is a good thing to do ^^

well in the changes a charged jab won't give a charged heavy even if splat happened.
Well the best way I can word it is because of the pressure/mind games you can apply to the person being splatted it would still be a good thing. Like you feel more pressure when you're near a wall. that would work to centurion's advantage by potentially using mix ups the person didn't think of.