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maxim26
04-30-2004, 09:51 AM
Have a big question about this manouver. When I play offline AI pilots use it alot, specially Bf109. I tryed to perform this manouver and i can do it but the difference is in the speed. AI do the turn literaly in seconds and it is very effective. But when i do it aircruft turn very slow and i'm just a sitting duck. If i try to perform this manouver with the speed much higher then stall speed rudder is not effective and i cant yaw enough to make tight turn and what i have instead is just a loop.

Can enybody explain the technic and tracks will be appreciated.

maxim26
04-30-2004, 09:51 AM
Have a big question about this manouver. When I play offline AI pilots use it alot, specially Bf109. I tryed to perform this manouver and i can do it but the difference is in the speed. AI do the turn literaly in seconds and it is very effective. But when i do it aircruft turn very slow and i'm just a sitting duck. If i try to perform this manouver with the speed much higher then stall speed rudder is not effective and i cant yaw enough to make tight turn and what i have instead is just a loop.

Can enybody explain the technic and tracks will be appreciated.

KarayaEine
04-30-2004, 09:58 AM
Are you referring to a manuever like the 'split-S'? Typically ground attack pilots would roll inverted over the target then pull back. To an outside viewr this would look like a 'wingover'. They did this for two reasons;
1) it kept the target in view
b) it imposed only positive G's on the pilot and airframe

The same is true for a fighter when tracking an enemy below. A hard pushover caused negative G's and unloads the airplane. Much better to roll then pull back. Both are characteristics of the 'split-S'.

To perform a split-S first roll to inverted then pull back on the stick. If you pull back then roll you risk entering a spin or stall if your airspeed isn't high enough.

Johann

Horrido!
"We need more ammo!"
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid106/p5f881fba318d7f0779ac1d9df0ace079/f96e6284.jpg

"Achtung Kommandant, sind Sie Fl├┬Ąche auf Feuer"

maxim26
04-30-2004, 10:05 AM
no, i'm talking about different situation. I never saw people doing it online but offline AI do it very frequently.

AI does it to turn on you while you are chasing AI in shallow dive.

First AI fulls up and on the top of the climb it make a very tight rudder turn.

As the result AI doesnt loose energy and outturns you.

http://users.marshall.edu/~artemyev2/wingover-anim.gif

Chuck_Older
04-30-2004, 10:15 AM
Hammerhead turn? Chandelle?

You must be at the right (slow!) speed, and initiate your rudder turn at the correct time, or the rudder seems ineffective. If you do it right, it's smooth and pretty quick.

Also, never forget that the AI doesn't use the same physics model you do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

KarayaEine
04-30-2004, 11:27 AM
OK...now I see.

it's a form of a stall turn, except you're not truly going in the vertical and stalling the airplane. Basically you need to have an effective rudder. Most warbirds rudders are too small to pull off a manuever like this. (belive me I've tried in scale R/C warbirds) You'd have to hit the rudder just at the right airspeed plus give a bit of throttle to get propblast over the rudder to help. That and not put any aileron input in either (it's hard to keep your wings perfectly level) and keep a somewaht neutral elevator once you've established your climb. In other words a pure rudder only turn. Most aircraft have some sort of roll coupling when you add rudder (especially warbirds).

You didn't mention what a/c you were trying to do this in. But as Chuck_Older said the AI use a different physics model http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Johann

Horrido!
"We need more ammo!"
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid106/p5f881fba318d7f0779ac1d9df0ace079/f96e6284.jpg

"Achtung Kommandant, sind Sie Fl├┬Ąche auf Feuer"

Dmitri9mm
04-30-2004, 11:56 AM
Well I don't know what servers you normally play on, but I use the wingover very often online and so do everyone else.
It is especially effective in the bf 109 because of it's great climbing ability, but don't do it in a FW or P-51 (like it's show above) they bleed off the energy and become sitting ducks!

http://barella.mat.ehime-u.ac.jp/kumac/P51/pics/079s1.gif
The n00b, the n00b, the n00b is on fire.
We don't need no Ponys let the ************ burn. Burn ************! BURN!

Fehler
04-30-2004, 12:09 PM
You can wing-over in a 190, but you have to be pretty slow, and aware of the snap stall. It's not as crisp as in the 109 either but I find it a tad faster to reverse direction than looping.

The trick is to start your elevator input about 20 KPH under stall and apply light aileron. Once you get good with it, you wont spin.

There is no real reason to use this in a 190 unless you have 5 tons of energy advantage on the other guy. In that situation, you can turn and roll back onto your target which is much faster than hammerheading the FW.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Kwiatos
04-30-2004, 12:35 PM
So how look wingover maneouver? I can't imagine it

hos8367
04-30-2004, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kwiatos:
So how look wingover maneouver? I can't imagine it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too am wondering what this manuver looks like. Could someone explain it again and dumb it down a notch? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

AirBot
04-30-2004, 01:10 PM
I believe the manual has instructions on how to perform this maneuver.

maxim26
04-30-2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hos8367:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kwiatos:
So how look wingover maneouver? I can't imagine it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too am wondering what this manuver looks like. Could someone explain it again and dumb it down a notch? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Tailspin Tails manouver looks like the one on the gif i posted above.

Before I tryed to do it on Mustang and P-39. Following your advise i tryed the same in Bf109. It is better, but still much slower then AI does it. AI somhow even doesnt stop on the top of the climb. Probably its because FM for AI is different.

Anyway, I anybody have a track, I would ask you to post it, or send me by e-mail and I can host it for everybody. Especially would be interesting to see a track from actual online game.

hos8367
04-30-2004, 02:12 PM
oh, I thought the gif was just a huge signature. I get it now, ty

Kwiatos
04-30-2004, 05:45 PM
If someone could make a track with wingover and put it on ftp or e-mail: kwiatos999@poczta.onet.pl

tttiger
04-30-2004, 06:08 PM
The animation in the post above is what it should look like.

I'm curious about WHEN you are using it. It's not a maneuver you should use when someone is chasing you.

A wingover is used primarily by high wing load fighters (read: crappy turners) to reverse direction with as little energy loss as possible. It is the primary means of reversing when you B&Z.

Typically, it is used AFTER you have attacked an enemy and extended (run away) so you are clear. Then you can reverse with a wing over and attack again.

Incidentally, it also is called "the Original Immelmann" because it is the "Immelmann Turn" that was used in WWI. You end up diving back at the enemy.

The "Modern Immelman" reverses direction but by doing a half loop and half roll at the top. It requires high speed at the start. You end up high. Personally, I prefer this to a wingover to get myself turned around as long as I have high energy going into the maneuver.

The main thing is: Don't try this when there is an enemy who can shoot at you. Extend away first. Extend far enough so that you are safe but not too far or your enemy will use the time to grab alt and thus increase his energy state by the time you return.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

wayno7777
04-30-2004, 09:33 PM
Bump tttiger. Soundsgood.

"Wir greifen an!"
("We attack!")
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-bluesclues3a.JPG

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

BuzzU
04-30-2004, 09:45 PM
I use it all the time like the AI do it. It's not really a wingover. It's more like an aileron turn with full rudder in the same direction. You don't have enough rudder authority to use just rudder.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

-97-Cmirko
05-01-2004, 06:35 AM
to maxim and all others, does anybody else have some more animated gifs or drawings of aircombat manouvers to share http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, it would be very nice to actually show some "inexperienced" pilots how to perform certain manouvers....

thx in advance

maxim26
05-01-2004, 08:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cmirko_CRO:
to maxim and all others, does anybody else have some more animated gifs or drawings of aircombat manouvers to share http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, it would be very nice to actually show some "inexperienced" pilots how to perform certain manouvers....

thx in advance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go here http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

They have short description of manouver, GIFs and short videos. Very usefulll.

73GIAP_Milan
05-01-2004, 09:35 AM
Hmm.. Hammerhead turns online.

I tend to do 'em only if there is no-one near or to set up for a head-on..
I use full landing flaps during the climb-in to drop speed asap and NO power..then at almost stallspeed, i apply full power and full rudder in the same direction as the proptorque, and pull flaps up 2 notches...during the dropdown, i lower flaps again to keep the speed under control and not loose alt. too much...

example: LA5FN: coming in at 300KM/U, pull up 90 degrees, chop throttle to 0%, drop flaps to landing,...when speed is 60KM/u i apply 100% power, and full RIGHT rudder, raise flaps 1 or 2 notches...
If it all went right you just did a decent and fairly quick hammerhead and are on your way down, ready to level out again..

My turns are reasonably fast, but i've seen guys doing it even faster then me...

Hope this helps out a bit...

Regards,

Der Tote Baron a.k.a. SK_Black_Knight....
______________________________
Sky Knights Squadron Leader

Cmirko_102nd
05-02-2004, 05:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maxim26:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cmirko_CRO:
to maxim and all others, does anybody else have some more animated gifs or drawings of aircombat manouvers to share http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, it would be very nice to actually show some "inexperienced" pilots how to perform certain manouvers....

thx in advance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go here http://mywebpages.comcast.net/Tailspin/index.htm

They have short description of manouver, GIFs and short videos. Very usefulll.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thank you very much http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Slammin_
05-02-2004, 07:41 AM
Wing over is perfect when you get someone to attempt to chase you in the verticle and they run out of climb before you do. This is about the only time I do it and is also one of the only valid reasons to ever let your energy get so low.