PDA

View Full Version : IJN SHINANO



KIMURA
08-07-2004, 12:38 PM
Would be interesting to "have" her......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.strategyplanet.com/commandos/images/shinano_4_big.jpg

Kimura

KIMURA
08-07-2004, 12:38 PM
Would be interesting to "have" her......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.strategyplanet.com/commandos/images/shinano_4_big.jpg

Kimura

Hoarmurath
08-07-2004, 12:59 PM
wasn't the shinano sunk before it entered service?

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sigus.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/files/internationale-ru.mp3)
56Kers are strongly advised to NOT click on my signature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sharpe26
08-07-2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
Would be interesting to "have" her......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.strategyplanet.com/commandos/images/shinano_4_big.jpg

Kimura<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For Silent Hunter fans maybe. I'll be happy to get Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu or Soryu. with a Dauntless.

edit: iirc the Shinano was torpedoed by the Archerfish during her shakedown cruise. Her skipper didn't find out he got a carrier until after the war.

zuiho
08-07-2004, 03:48 PM
I,zuiho, want only two jap carrier, the Akagi and the... Zuiho! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

LEXX_Luthor
08-07-2004, 07:07 PM
SHINANOA may not be sunk before service during a Dynamic Campaign, either Luthier's or 3rd Party.

Doug_Thompson
08-07-2004, 09:24 PM
The Shinano really is a tragic story. She wasn't even completed, really. Work was rushed to get her out of the dockyards to some place she'd be less vulnerable to bombing.

The supposedly watertight compartments had not been sealed and cauked. The wiring was all in tubes and holes were cut in the walls to allow for those tubes. None of those were sealed off. She hadn't even had a pressure test which tests that sealing because everybody knew there was no point.

So out she goes, with a sub tipped off by decoding waiting for her. I don't remember how many people died in the sinking. The water went from compartment to compartment quickly, though.

http://www.model-news.com/projekt/335col/baerlog.jpg
Proud Charter Member of the Do-Do Birds Luftwhiners Chorus

unseen84
08-08-2004, 12:04 AM
From combinedfleet.com...

Shinano actually took quite a while to sink. She was torpedoed on 11/29/44 at around 3am and didn't sink until almost 11am. She was able to maintain 11 knots for awhile and an attempt was made to beach the ship, but her list grew too severe.

1,435 men died, while 1,080 (including 32 civilians) were rescued.

RedDeth
08-08-2004, 02:09 AM
the shinano is a tragic story? your name says american but not your words.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

necrobaron
08-08-2004, 02:12 AM
So what is the significance of the Shinano? Was this the last Japanese carrier built or somesuch?

"Not all who wander are lost."

necrobaron
08-08-2004, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
the shinano is a tragic story? your name says american but not your words.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not unAmerican to show empathy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Flydutch
08-08-2004, 04:10 AM
It is UnHuman to show no Empathy to felow humans

Or to think of any Human beeing below Human!

KIMURA
08-08-2004, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
the shinano is a tragic story? your name says american but not your words.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Losses on human life is always tragic, doens't matter which side RedDeth. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura

Sakai9745
08-08-2004, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
the shinano is a tragic story? your name says american but not your words.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Hey necro. I believe the significance of the Shinano was her Yamato heritage, being the third of the class, although having been converted to carrier. Personally, given experienced hands and a good airwing, I think it would have been at least interesting to see what she could've contributed.

Cheers,

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

Fliger747
08-08-2004, 11:42 AM
My recollection of Shinano was that (surprisingly) she was not rated as a "carrier" but as an "aircraft ferry". This was probably not due to lack of capability for the role, but the lack of Japanese ability at that time to field a new carrier airgroup. Remember the carriers scrificed at Cape Engano as a decoy had virtually no air groups by that time!

It takes time to bring a Naval Aviator "up to speed" and they had no equivilent program such as our excellent (for the time) V5.

Snootles
08-08-2004, 01:49 PM
I believe the Shinano's significance was that it was the heaviest carrier built until the nuclear carrier Enterprise.

goshikisen
08-08-2004, 02:05 PM
Does anyone know if the wreck of the Shinano has been located? Last I heard there was a discrepancy between USN and IJN accounts of her position at the time she was sunk. She wasn't far from land so it's not like depth would be a big factor. Unfortunately one of the rumours is that she was salvaged for scrap at a time when there wasn't much importance placed on WWII wrecks.

Anybody have any additional info?

Regards, Goshikisen

necrobaron
08-08-2004, 03:53 PM
@Sakai,Fliger, and Snootles:

Thanks for the explanation, fellas. Sounds interesting indeed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

RedDeth
08-08-2004, 06:41 PM
sinking that beast saved a lot of american lives.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

SkyChimp
08-08-2004, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snootles:
I believe the Shinano's significance was that it was the heaviest carrier built until the nuclear carrier Enterprise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forrestal class IIRC.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Tooz_69GIAP
08-08-2004, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
sinking that beast saved a lot of american lives.

http://www.fighterjocks.net home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh, yeah, it did. And it ended a lot of Japanese lives.

What's your problem?? Are these lives no more important than anyone elses??

More than 1,000 men died when that carrier was sunk. Surely that has some significance.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

Tater-SW-
08-08-2004, 08:40 PM
Every day the war went on hundreds (or thousands) died. Any loss of life on the front-end that had any bearing on getting the japanese to surrender sooner rather than later saved lives in the long run---on all sides. Removing yet another vessel that they might wishfully hope to involve in some "decisive battle" couldn't have hurt tipping the scales of reason a little.

tater

RedDeth
08-08-2004, 09:15 PM
my point is that killing the maximum japanese in the shortest amount of time saved american lives in ww2. which is what most countries wanted. and btw it saved a ton of japanese lives by crushing their hopes of winning the war.

if we would have invaded japan the guesstimates were up to 10 million MORE japanese dead. than already died.

my point is back then every large enemy ship sinking was a good thing.any that dont agree are too young to remember an entire world at war and what those men did to stop it.

dead japanese back then WAS a good thing. and i say that with having in past a long term japanese girlfriend.

im pennsylvania dutch ie german american. and i feel the same way about every german killed too. im surprised i have to defend these views at all

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

goshikisen
08-09-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
my point is back then every large enemy ship sinking was a good thing.any that dont agree are too young to remember an entire world at war and what those men did to stop it.

dead japanese back then WAS a good thing. and i say that with having in past a long term japanese girlfriend.

im pennsylvania dutch ie german american. and i feel the same way about every german killed too. im surprised i have to defend these views at all
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Back then" is 60 years ago... international relationships have changed and our former enemies are now our allies.

I'm sorry, I don't know you and I can't think what your perspective is... maybe you lived through the Second World War and maybe you knew somebody who didn't come back. I sense though that many veterans who look back on what happened feel a sense of accomplishment BUT they are also very aware of the tragedy that was WWII.

The Shinano's brief life was a tragic story. In terms of action the ship was stillborn... and its crew was not prepared for the fate that awaited them. Do you not think that some Japanese veterans feel a sense of sadness when they reflect on the sinking of the USS Indianapolis?

"Back then" the sinking of a capital ship was a good thing... but in the light of the present it's a statistic in a history book and a very sad story.

Regards, Goshikisen.

p.s. and that from a Canadian-Dutch person married to a Japanese girl. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Doug_Thompson
08-09-2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:
Do you not think that some Japanese veterans feel a sense of sadness when they reflect on the sinking of the USS Indianapolis?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Extremely well-said, goshikisen.

It's been a while since I checked this forum, only to find that my patriotism questioned because I'm not completely heartless.

If my eye had been pressed to the "Archerfish" periscope, I'd have cooly worked out the firing solution and sent the Shinano to the bottom as fast as I could -- but I would have muttered "poor b------s" afterwards.

The tragedy was the incompetence and haste that sent this ship, which really wasn't even ready to leave port, out into a war zone.

I wish the bombers had got her before she ever sailed. I wish the Japanese hadn't build the ship in the first place. I wish they'd never attacked Pearl Harbor. Would I have let the Shinano go? Never. The tragedy had to play out, but it was still a tragedy.

http://www.model-news.com/projekt/335col/baerlog.jpg
Proud Charter Member of the Do-Do Birds Luftwhiners Chorus

[This message was edited by Doug_Thompson on Mon August 09 2004 at 01:47 PM.]

[This message was edited by Doug_Thompson on Mon August 09 2004 at 01:54 PM.]

Baco-ECV56
08-09-2004, 12:50 PM
Well Put Mate.
Killing is a necesity of war.
But its a Job that must not be taken with joy, and it must be remebered with respect.

Snootles
08-09-2004, 04:21 PM
Standard displacements:

Shinano 62,000t
Forrestal 61,163t
Enterprise 71, 277t

Shinano had a greater std. displacement. It is true that Forrestal's full-load displacement was greater though.

IIJG11_Spreckels
08-09-2004, 11:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do you not think that some Japanese veterans feel a sense of sadness when they reflect on the sinking of the USS Indianapolis?

"Back then" the sinking of a capital ship was a good thing... but in the light of the present it's a statistic in a history book and a very sad story.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roger that ! My cousin James B. Annis died on the Indy James B. Annis 1920-1945 (http://www.angelfire.com/mi/annisall/JamesB.html)

At about 11:00 PM, under a quickly clearing and moonlit sky, she was struck by three torpedoes by the Japanese submarine I-58, commanded by Commander Mochitsura Hashimoto. As a result of the swiftness of the attack on the Indy, the immediate massive damage resulting in a quick sinking, damage to communications equipment that prevented sending a distress signal, and the Navy regulation forbidding the reporting of combatant ships in port, rescue craft were not able to to reach the site for more than 80 hours. During that time the 883 crewmen of the Indy who had survived the initial attack and sinking, were subject to exposure, lack of fresh water and food, and massive shark attacks while awaiting rescue. Only 320 crewmen were ultimately rescued and four of those men died soon after rescue.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/annisall/images/JamesB.gif

zuiho
08-10-2004, 03:53 AM
The war kill uman lifes but the uman spirit and honour must be preserved, specially after 60 years.

Nimits
08-10-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:
Do you not think that some Japanese veterans feel a sense of sadness when they reflect on the sinking of the USS Indianapolis?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I doubt it, given the prevailing Japanese attitude that the war was not their fault but rather foisted upon them Americans, Western conspiracy, fate, etc., and they therefore bear no responsibility for anything they did during its prosecution.

But, as an American, I see no reason why any Japanese should be particularly saddened by the fact the Indianpolis was sunk. It was an American ship of war sunk by a Japanese ship of war both operating within the commonly allowed practices of warfare. The tragedy in that incident (as it was, in mirror image, in the case of the Shinano) was the mistakes of ommission and or commission made by headquarters and supporting units that unncessarily magnified the number of casualties.

IIJG11_Spreckels
08-11-2004, 05:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nimits:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:
Do you not think that some Japanese veterans feel a sense of sadness when they reflect on the sinking of the USS Indianapolis?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, as an American, I see no reason why any Japanese should be particularly saddened by the fact the Indianpolis was sunk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ?
Living Japanese veterans of today are not saddened by the death and tragedy of the losses on both sides in World War Two ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
Let us here from our Japanese members on this one

Sakai9745
08-11-2004, 08:18 AM
I may not be Japanese, but quoting from his book, my namesake took no pleasure from killing. There's the story of how he refused to gun down a wounded Wildcat pilot until he fought back. Then there's the one about letting an unarmed DC-3 go.

I cannot speak for all veterans of WW2, but the ones I have had the pleasure of knowing have all expressed the sentiment that killing is not fun.

Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."

p1ngu666
08-11-2004, 01:01 PM
its a loss of life. and thats sad.
part of the human mind works still as a clan system, u care far more for ppl u know, of the same group, same country, than u do for any other random.
that still dont make it right.

Anyways, it seems its a really big carrier, which is good, so we can land our b17, b24, betties and other large, highly inopriate aircraft on her http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Snootles
08-11-2004, 01:10 PM
Yeah, see if you can put a B-29 down on one. If it doesn't roll off the deck, it will probably clip the island with its wingspan.

Nimits
08-11-2004, 04:50 PM
I am not denying that there were noble Japanese warriors. Saki and Fuchida come to mind in that category (though they were they were a small minority).

Actually, I was speaking more of the current hypocracy and selective amnesia of Japanese politics and culture, which cry out how horrible and horriffic the fireboming and atomic raids were, yet ignore that they brought the war on themselves and barely acknowledge their atroicities against Chinese, Koreans, Europeans, Americans, and anyone else they considered racially or culturally inferior (which was just about everyone). I am not aware of what most Japanese vets think of the war, other than a exceptional few such as the above mentioned Saki and Fuchida, but if they are going to regret any tragedy, it should be that they started such a horrible war in the first place, not those perfectly legal and moral wartime actions such as sinking an enemy warship.

To put it succinctly, a combatant adhering to the commonly recognized rules and practises of warfare is not morally responsible for the lives or welfare of those men he meets in and during battle.

Or, to put it another way, if either the Shinano or the Indianpolis had spotted the opposing submarine first and rammed it, killing all of the several dozen men aboard, few would speak of the "tragedy" of such an engagement, rather counting it as just another of the several subs lost with all hands by all nations enaged in WWII.

goshikisen
08-11-2004, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

To put it succinctly, a combatant adhering to the commonly recognized rules and practises of warfare is not morally responsible for the lives or welfare of those men he meets in and during battle.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did your superior officer tell you that?

Warfare and morality in the same sentence almost constitutes an oxymoron. A soldier not morally responsible for the lives or welfare of those he meets in battle? I'd say that's for one's conscience to decide. There are many veterans out there who are not entirely at peace with themselves because they followed "the rules".

Snuffing out human lives en masse is TRAGIC. Warfare or not... the bodies of those Japanese soldiers that you see half buried in the sand in those famous photographs taken on Iwo Jima, those guys had a life in Japan that they never went back to. You don't think an American has ever looked at those photographs and reflected on that?

Warfare is a necessary evil. I'm not a pacifist... I recognize the fact that peace requires everybody in this world to buy into a singular concept and that will NEVER happen. But someone is always going to have to pay with their life in order to maintain some order on this planet and we owe them more than just "better you than me".

On the Japan not owning up issue... I've got to be honest, there are probably a great many people in Vietnam who'd like a bit more contrition out of the States. Japan doesn't have the monopoly on thinking it was justified in its ways when history tells us it wasn't. In reality, there were many in Japan who were against the war so the term "they" oversimplifies the issue. You have to remember that military hardliners were running the government in 1941 and young military officers were assasinating members of the government who they thought "soft". Try getting your voice heard in that environment.

Interesting debate...

Regards, Goshikisen

Snootles
08-11-2004, 09:13 PM
Yes, the Japanese representative (don't know the name) who attended the Washington Conference and agreed to its terms was assassinated at the Tokyo rail station.

p1ngu666
08-12-2004, 07:29 AM
hm, think he may have committed suicide in a railway carrage, because he realised after he shouldnt have agreed to the terms of the agreement

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Nimits
08-12-2004, 08:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:

On the Japan not owning up issue... I've got to be honest, there are probably a great many people in Vietnam who'd like a bit more contrition out of the States. Japan doesn't have the monopoly on thinking it was justified in its ways when history tells us it wasn't. In reality, there were many in Japan who were against the war so the term "they" oversimplifies the issue. You have to remember that military hardliners were running the government in 1941 and young military officers were assasinating members of the government who they thought "soft". Try getting your voice heard in that environment.

Interesting debate...

Regards, Goshikisen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

American intervention in Vietnam is hardly in the same category as Japanese aggression in World War II, while atrocities committed by Americans in Vietnam may have been more prevelent than we would have preferred, they still were the exception, rather than the rule as in the case of the Japanese in World War II. Vietnam was a poorly run war, but had it been executed properly with a minimum of political interference, and had Macnamara and Johnson stopped tring to send messages to Bejing and Moscow and focused on beating the NVA, the war would have been won with much less heartache and suffering on both, and, arguably, a free South Vietnam would be in existance today. It was certainly not a war of aggresion.

If a civilian is morally justified in killing a person (or two or three or more) who is trying to kill him i self defense, than certainly 100 men are justified in killing several hundred other men who would kill them if given the slightest opportunity. Combat is simply self defense writ large.