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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:00 PM
Everyday more "allied" troops are getting torn up by roadside blasts, missle attacks, gun figts and RPG rounds...
The international community has spoken and nobody seems to agree with Dubya's politcs or policies regarding anything to do within Iraq with the exclusion of Britain a very shaken Italy and a nervous coalition at best.
So the questions are as follows:

Does anyone see Iraq as another Vietnam in the making?

Were the American people lied to?

Was the world lied to?


Where do YOU stand friend? ( U WITH US OR AGAINST US?? ) lol

QUESTIONING AUTHORITY IN A DEMOCRACY IS PATRIOTIC,
but that depends on ones perspective of democracy.


KILL YOUR T.V

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:00 PM
Everyday more "allied" troops are getting torn up by roadside blasts, missle attacks, gun figts and RPG rounds...
The international community has spoken and nobody seems to agree with Dubya's politcs or policies regarding anything to do within Iraq with the exclusion of Britain a very shaken Italy and a nervous coalition at best.
So the questions are as follows:

Does anyone see Iraq as another Vietnam in the making?

Were the American people lied to?

Was the world lied to?


Where do YOU stand friend? ( U WITH US OR AGAINST US?? ) lol

QUESTIONING AUTHORITY IN A DEMOCRACY IS PATRIOTIC,
but that depends on ones perspective of democracy.


KILL YOUR T.V

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:35 PM
How far WILL he go? People want them to pull out, but they'll start complaining even more about him not finishing the job and "abandoning" the Iraqis, and how Iraqi Freedom was such a failure.

Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan after we kicked their rear in WW2?


<font color="white"><table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=4)"><font size=1>"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
- George Orwell
"I'd rather have the responsibility and burden of knowledge, than the happiness and joy of ignorance."
-Ambassador</table><font color="white">
<font color="red">[/b]</u>[/i]</font size>
<marquee bgcolor="#000000"><font color="yellow"><font size=4>Now in the news................................Ubisoft loses sales due to poor customer service and falsly advertised "technical support".....................In a gathering of top Bush administration officials, word leaked out that America wants to stop N. Korea from building Nuclear Reactors just because N. Korea is full Ubisoft supporters.....................Ubisoft enemies grow %3.25 today.....................Newest patch for Raven Shield include a whopping 14 extra computer crashing bugs, with a bonus extra level that makes your computer explode and kill you.....................New patch available for download for Ubisoft's Raven Shield (patch 1.99999999b).....................Culprit in massive power outage in the N.E. of United States found; A computer gamer was playing Raven Shield, and the FPS' dropped so low, that it drained the electricity of the N.E......................New investigation concludes that Liberia broke into civil war because their president defended Ubisoft, and the citizens did not.....................Author Tom Clancy gets arrested today as he enters game company Ubisoft offices, and strikes a developer several times in the face before escorted out of the building by a SWAT team.....................Man wanted for murder takes hostages in Montana home; police say that the demands are that Ubisoft stops screwing customers over. The police abruptly stopped negotiating when they found out his demands, and sent in the SWAT team in fear that the demands were impossible.....................Ex-Police Chief Charles Moose tells reporters of why he didn't write about his lousy experiences with game company Ubisoft. Moose says he will have to write another book just about that................................Man in L.A. jumps off 7 storey building today. Suicide note tells of a sad story - the man was trying to get Raven Shield to work on his computers for 3 weeks straight with no technical support</marquee><font color="white">[/b]</u>[/i]</font size>

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 05:37 PM
and just to refresh your memory, We haven't even been there a year!

<font color="white"><table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=4)"><font size=1>"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
- George Orwell
"I'd rather have the responsibility and burden of knowledge, than the happiness and joy of ignorance."
-Ambassador</table><font color="white">
<font color="red">[/b]</u>[/i]</font size>
<marquee bgcolor="#000000"><font color="yellow"><font size=4>Now in the news................................Ubisoft loses sales due to poor customer service and falsly advertised "technical support".....................In a gathering of top Bush administration officials, word leaked out that America wants to stop N. Korea from building Nuclear Reactors just because N. Korea is full Ubisoft supporters.....................Ubisoft enemies grow %3.25 today.....................Newest patch for Raven Shield include a whopping 14 extra computer crashing bugs, with a bonus extra level that makes your computer explode and kill you.....................New patch available for download for Ubisoft's Raven Shield (patch 1.99999999b).....................Culprit in massive power outage in the N.E. of United States found; A computer gamer was playing Raven Shield, and the FPS' dropped so low, that it drained the electricity of the N.E......................New investigation concludes that Liberia broke into civil war because their president defended Ubisoft, and the citizens did not.....................Author Tom Clancy gets arrested today as he enters game company Ubisoft offices, and strikes a developer several times in the face before escorted out of the building by a SWAT team.....................Man wanted for murder takes hostages in Montana home; police say that the demands are that Ubisoft stops screwing customers over. The police abruptly stopped negotiating when they found out his demands, and sent in the SWAT team in fear that the demands were impossible.....................Ex-Police Chief Charles Moose tells reporters of why he didn't write about his lousy experiences with game company Ubisoft. Moose says he will have to write another book just about that................................Man in L.A. jumps off 7 storey building today. Suicide note tells of a sad story - the man was trying to get Raven Shield to work on his computers for 3 weeks straight with no technical support</marquee><font color="white">[/b]</u>[/i]</font size>

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:42 PM
Ambassador wrote:

- Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan
- after we kicked their rear in WW2?

Actually, it took roughly a decade to rebuild Japan (6.5 years officially if you quote government sources), and at the height of our occupation we had over 400,000 troops there. Nevertheless, it is really pointless to even compare Iraq with the rebuilding of Japan or Germany. The differences are so vast that one could only wish that coalition forces were dealing with the same situation that presented itself post WW II. Anyway, take a look at the analysis below, and you will get a better grasp of what I'm trying to convey here.

Few parallels with Germany and Japan

Seven months after Baghdad fell, the Bush administration is confronting critics of its occupation strategy in Iraq by recalling U.S. triumphs in postwar Germany and Japan. But some historians say those are different stories.

The postwar reality in Germany and Japan, scholars say, was very different from today's Iraq. Historians point out that while more than 240 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq since Bush declared an end to major hostilities on May 1, the total number of postwar American casualties in occupied Germany and Japan was zero.

While campaigning in New Hampshire last month, President Bush nevertheless repeated the comparison with postwar Germany and Japan, nations that have since blossomed into affluent, stable democracies, and posed no military threat to anyone in 50 years.

''America did not run from Germany and Japan following World War II. We helped those countries become strong and decent democratic societies that no longer waged war on America. That's our mission in Iraq,'' Bush said.

John Dower, a professor of Japanese history at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, takes issue with the president's comparison. ''Policy makers are using historical analogies comparing occupied Germany and Japan to Iraq the way a drunk uses a lamp post, not for illumination but for support,'' he said.

American GIs were so safe in Japan that they could move their families there and Gen. Douglas MacArthur lived in Tokyo with his wife and son. ''I can't imagine this happening in Iraq,'' Dower said.

RECOGNIZED DEFEAT

In Germany, also, the Americans met cooperation, not violence, said Harvard's German history professor Charles Maier.

Maier and Dower say U.S. forces in Germany and Japan met no armed resistance because their populations felt legitimately defeated and their leaders had surrendered unconditionally.

''Not all former Nazis became democrats overnight, to say the least, but they realized how totally Germany had been defeated and that there was no point in a resistance campaign,'' Maier said. ``Iraq was defeated too easily for the same consciousness to pervade.''

In Japan, Emperor Hirohito even ordered his subjects to cooperate with the occupiers -- a far cry from the situation today in Iraq, where many people have never accepted defeat and former President Saddam Hussein's whereabouts remain unknown.

Academics also warn that the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq seems to lack the long-term planning and groundwork necessary for a successful occupation.

In contrast, Washington had been preparing for the occupation of Germany and Japan for several years before the end of the war, Maier said, even training soldiers in civil affairs schools starting in 1942, three years before the end of the war.

POPULACE, NEIGHBORS

There are other major differences, experts say:

* In Iraq, U.S. troops face a nation with a history of conflicts among Shiite and Sunni Muslims, Kurds and Turkomans, unlike the largely homogenous Germany and Japan.

* Iraq's neighbors pose problems for U.S. rebuilding efforts, with Syria and Iran accused of failing to secure their borders against infiltrators. By comparison, U.S. troops in Germany and Japan enjoyed the cooperation of neighboring nations that had been invaded by the defeated armies.

* Perhaps more importantly, Iraq lacks the democratic experience of pre-war Germany and Japan, making it harder to implement a U.S.-led democratization process, historians say.

German history professor David Hamlin of Brown University added, ``German politicians could look back on their own past for a German model of democracy in a way that Iraqis cannot.''

* Unlike World War II, when the world applauded the U.S. war effort, the U.N. Security Council refused to endorse the preemptive U.S. strike on Iraq and protesters around the world denounced it as illegal and immoral.

* Finally, the U.S. rebuilding policy in occupied Iraq is quite different from the one promoted in Germany and Japan, the historians added. While the Bush administration has been inviting foreign companies to help rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, the U.S. occupation of Germany and Japan preferred to issue reconstruction contracts to national companies.

By limiting the role of Iraqi companies in their economy, Dower added, the U.S. occupying authorities might be alienating Iraqi professionals, whom he sees as a key ingredient for a successful and cost-effective reconstruction.

Despite the differences, Harvard's Maier said, ``This doesn't mean we can't make it work. But it will take a long time, and much skill and will.''

Source: Global Policy Forum

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:01 PM
drugbox wrote:
- So the questions are as follows:
-
- Does anyone see Iraq as another Vietnam in the
- making?

Nope.



- Were the American people lied to?

Nope. Intel wasn't as good as the entire world believed.



- Was the world lied to?

Nope. Intel wasn't as good as the entire world believed.



- Where do YOU stand friend? ( U WITH US OR AGAINST
- US?? ) lol

Not with you. And I'm clearly not your "friend".



<font face="verdana" size="1">.Wit</font>
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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 07:34 PM
By the way Ambassador don't get me wrong. I think the US and its allies can prevail in Iraq, and their most recent policy reversals (which were recommended by the U.N. and our European allies to begin with) there concerning the transfer of power to the Iraqis (prior to waiting for a constitution to be written) and the reenlisting of former military personnel (majority of which were lower level Baath Party officials and conscripts) who comprise a huge segment of unemployed persons and potential recruiting pool for the insurgency is surely a step in the right direction.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 08:39 PM
V3-Dev wrote:
- Ambassador wrote:
-
-- Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan
-- after we kicked their rear in WW2?
-
- Actually, it took roughly a decade to rebuild Japan
- (6.5 years officially if you quote government
- sources), and at the height of our occupation we had
- over 400,000 troops there. Nevertheless, it is
- really pointless to even compare Iraq with the
- rebuilding of Japan or Germany. The differences are
- so vast that one could only wish that coalition
- forces were dealing with the same situation that
- presented itself post WW II. Anyway, take a look at
- the analysis below, and you will get a better grasp
- of what I'm trying to convey here.
-
- Few parallels with Germany and Japan

But take a good look at what we did to make them realize Defeat.
This time we have gloves on V3. It takes a lot longer to show these Leaders that their game is over.
Especially when you have the UN and the Europeans breathing down our backs with their nonesense, instead of getting in there and getting the job done (like the UN recomended.) in a much quicker time.
-
- Seven months after Baghdad fell, the Bush
- administration is confronting critics of its
- occupation strategy in Iraq by recalling U.S.
- triumphs in postwar Germany and Japan. But some
- historians say those are different stories.

Yeah they are different stories because they don't match their stories. But the fact is that those two nations are now a free productive nation that is an asset to the entire world.

- The postwar reality in Germany and Japan, scholars
- say, was very different from today's Iraq.

You dont have to be a scholar to realise that one V3.

- Historians point out that while more than 240 U.S.
- troops have been killed in Iraq since Bush declared
- an end to major hostilities on May 1, the total
- number of postwar American casualties in occupied
- Germany and Japan was zero.

But did they happen to mention how many civilian and military personel died during the war compared to Iraq and Afghanistan?
Do you think it would be better to hit them with all we have? because then we can guarantee 0 deaths while we are reconstructing.
-
But you see V3 all you and the Liberal monkeys that follow your way of thinking are only interested in pointing out your false misconceptions that Bush started this war to get the oil profits to his rich friends. Nothing he does will be to your satisfaction.

And to the idiots (scholars) that believe this is turning to another Vietnam.......its only in the minds of the defeated. Different situation different President and a whole new toy collection.

<center>
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<font size="4">Lead follow or get out of the way</font size="4">

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:00 PM
Well I guess only time will tell now won't it.

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 10:14 PM
Was I the only one that chuckled at the line in V3Dev's article:

"Not all Nazi's became democrats overnight"

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No offense to dems, take it out of context and have a chuckle /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



http://www.imahosting.com/sigs/farnham2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 12:02 AM
That is pretty funny Farnham.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 12:15 AM
And here I thought that Werner Von Braun was a registered Republican. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"A person should not choose the form in which he wishes to perform the service of the Lord, but he should perform it in any manner the opportunity affords. He should be like a vessel into which anything may be poured - wine, milk, or water."

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 12:32 AM
Hornet57 wrote:
-
- V3-Dev wrote:
-- Ambassador wrote:
--
--- Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan
--- after we kicked their rear in WW2?
--
-- Actually, it took roughly a decade to rebuild Japan
-- (6.5 years officially if you quote government
-- sources), and at the height of our occupation we had
-- over 400,000 troops there. Nevertheless, it is
-- really pointless to even compare Iraq with the
-- rebuilding of Japan or Germany. The differences are
-- so vast that one could only wish that coalition
-- forces were dealing with the same situation that
-- presented itself post WW II. Anyway, take a look at
-- the analysis below, and you will get a better grasp
-- of what I'm trying to convey here.
--
-- Few parallels with Germany and Japan
-
- But take a good look at what we did to make them
- realize Defeat.
- This time we have gloves on V3.
- It takes a lot
- longer to show these Leaders that their game is
- over.

Yes, even more reason for people not to relate that period in time with what is currently transpiring in Iraq.

- Especially when you have the UN and the Europeans
- breathing down our backs with their nonesense,
- instead of getting in there and getting the job done
- (like the UN recomended.) in a much quicker time.

As I've said previously, America has made mistakes concerning Iraq, and so has the United Nations. However, both appear to be coming to some sort of compromise on how to implement various stages of this ongoing reconstruction effort, which is now evident with the policy shifts I mentioned above and the upcoming U.N. resolution which is now being devised by the US/UK governments.

-- Seven months after Baghdad fell, the Bush
-- administration is confronting critics of its
-- occupation strategy in Iraq by recalling U.S.
-- triumphs in postwar Germany and Japan. But some
-- historians say those are different stories.
-
- Yeah they are different stories because they don't
- match their stories.
- But the fact is that those two
- nations are now a free productive nation that is an
- asset to the entire world.

Nobody is disputing what Germany and Japan eventually became. The question is whether Iraq will mirror the progress of those countries, and the report card is surely still out on that. Nevertheless, as I stated before I think the US, its allies and our Iraqi friends can prevail.

-- The postwar reality in Germany and Japan, scholars
-- say, was very different from today's Iraq.
-
- You dont have to be a scholar to realise that one
- V3.

Well, the sooner people (especially administration officials as well as certain members of Congress) come to this realization the better because they've all made numerous references in the past to the Marshall Plan and the US efforts in rebuilding Germany and Japan as an excuse for some of our shortcomings (specifically on security) in Iraq, when in fact they are completely different situations and not comparable.

-- Historians point out that while more than 240 U.S.
-- troops have been killed in Iraq since Bush declared
-- an end to major hostilities on May 1, the total
-- number of postwar American casualties in occupied
-- Germany and Japan was zero.
-
- But did they happen to mention how many civilian and
- military personel died during the war compared to
- Iraq and Afghanistan?
- Do you think it would be better to hit them with all
- we have? because then we can guarantee 0 deaths
- while we are reconstructing.

Sure we used different tactics to defeat those enemies in WW II. However, that only reinforces the notion laid out in that report above that the post WW II reconstruction and what's going on in Iraq could not be further apart in virtually every aspect.

Therefore, when certain individuals attempt to associate the two it is pretty absurd. I mean if there is any single positive similarity one can gain out of relating then and now is that it appears our current President is not about to cut and run without finishing the job in Iraq.

- But you see V3 all you and the Liberal monkeys that
- follow your way of thinking are only interested in
- pointing out your false misconceptions that Bush
- started this war to get the oil profits to his rich
- friends. Nothing he does will be to your
- satisfaction.

Hornet, I've never ever stated that this war was for oil, so don't get all delusional on me please.

- And to the idiots (scholars) that believe this is
- turning to another Vietnam.......its only in the
- minds of the defeated. Different situation different
- President and a whole new toy collection.

Personally, I don't think anything is turning into another Vietnam, and I agree that the conflict in Southeast Asia was a totally different time and circumstance, and the same holds true for WW II and the subsequent reconstruction to follow it.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 03:36 PM
V3-Dev wrote:
- Hornet57 wrote:
--
--
-- But take a good look at what we did to make them
-- realize Defeat.
-- This time we have gloves on V3.
-- It takes a lot
-- longer to show these Leaders that their game is
-- over.
-
- Yes, even more reason for people not to relate that
- period in time with what is currently transpiring in
- Iraq.

I think Bush only made the comparison in order to point out two very brutal enemies that are now our friends, the end result was worth the efforts.
-
-- Especially when you have the UN and the Europeans
-- breathing down our backs with their nonesense,
-- instead of getting in there and getting the job done
-- (like the UN recomended.) in a much quicker time.
-
- As I've said previously, America has made mistakes
- concerning Iraq, and so has the United Nations.
- However, both appear to be coming to some sort of
- compromise on how to implement various stages of
- this ongoing reconstruction effort, which is now
- evident with the policy shifts I mentioned above and
- the upcoming U.N. resolution which is now being
- devised by the US/UK governments.

America did, does and will make mistakes because although close, we are not perfect. Remember the terrorists are not fighting within the rules of warfare. But the UN in my Opinion lost a lot of credibility when it refussed to go after Saddam with the US and its coalition waiting to take out Saddam and continue help to rebuild Iraq they way it should have been from the start. I truly believe that if the UN would have not let the US take unilateral action, Iraq situation could have been alot better now.

- Nobody is disputing what Germany and Japan
- eventually became. The question is whether Iraq will
- mirror the progress of those countries, and the
- report card is surely still out on that.

When a new baby is born, do we know how it would end up?
of course not, but we are going to do what ever possible to ensure that it becomes a productive member of society.
But it can also go the wrong way when the parents don't agree with the upbringing. There will be many bad people trying to influence the child and our job is to protect with both parents not just one. I am not trying to demeen the Iraqi people with my anology but I hope you got my point.

- Nevertheless, as I stated before I think the US, its
- allies and our Iraqi friends can prevail.

I agree
-
-- You dont have to be a scholar to realise that one
-- V3.
-
- Well, the sooner people (especially administration
- officials as well as certain members of Congress)
- come to this realization the better because they've
- all made numerous references in the past to the
- Marshall Plan and the US efforts in rebuilding
- Germany and Japan as an excuse for some of our
- shortcomings (specifically on security) in Iraq,
- when in fact they are completely different
- situations and not comparable.

I would leave that one to them, because they are in the forefront of the problem and should deside how to handle the situation.
-
-----
-- But did they happen to mention how many civilian and
-- military personel died during the war compared to
-- Iraq and Afghanistan?
-- Do you think it would be better to hit them with all
-- we have? because then we can guarantee 0 deaths
-- while we are reconstructing.
-
- Sure we used different tactics to defeat those
- enemies in WW II. However, that only reinforces the
- notion laid out in that report above that the post
- WW II reconstruction and what's going on in Iraq
- could not be further apart in virtually every
- aspect.

The most important difference though is we had most of the world on our side in WWII. Makes alot of difference to a dictators decisions.
-
- Therefore, when certain individuals attempt to
- associate the two it is pretty absurd. I mean if
- there is any single positive similarity one can gain
- out of relating then and now is that it appears our
- current President is not about to cut and run
- without finishing the job in Iraq.

That is why I trust Bush. He would not cut and run.
-
-- But you see V3 all you and the Liberal monkeys that
-- follow your way of thinking are only interested in
-- pointing out your false misconceptions that Bush
-- started this war to get the oil profits to his rich
-- friends. Nothing he does will be to your
-- satisfaction.
-
- Hornet, I've never ever stated that this war was for
- oil, so don't get all delusional on me please.

I opologize to include you with the ignorant monkeys, since you didnt say it but many have and still saying it.
-
-- And to the idiots (scholars) that believe this is
-- turning to another Vietnam.......its only in the
-- minds of the defeated. Different situation different
-- President and a whole new toy collection.
-
- Personally, I don't think anything is turning into
- another Vietnam, and I agree that the conflict in
- Southeast Asia was a totally different time and
- circumstance, and the same holds true for WW II and
- the subsequent reconstruction to follow it.
-
-
Absolutely!

BTW, How do you feel about the protests in the UK?


<center>
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-4/146066/HDZUVJETRBTPXHHFKWSU-Roguefear.jpg

<font size="4">Lead follow or get out of the way</font size="4">

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 03:59 PM
For the record Hornet, the only point I'm really trying to make here is that the reconstruction effort that took place in Japan and Germany after WW II and the ongoing effort occurring in Iraq at the moment are not analogous, and judging from most of your replies it appears you are pretty much in agreement with me on this matter.

Therefore, individuals within our government or anyone else for that matter should really refrain from making such poor correlations because it is tantamount to misinformation, and the same holds true for those individuals who wish to parallel the situation in Iraq with what our nation endured while fighting in the Vietnam conflict of the 60's and 70's.

Concerning the protests, I've not really paid any attention to them, and to be quite honest these types of events are nothing new. Most western democracies pride themselves on allowing their citizens to voice their opinions in public gatherings as long as they don't act violently seditious, so in my opinion the meida buzz surrounding these latest protests is unwarranted to begin with.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 05:13 PM
V3-Dev wrote:
- For the record Hornet, the only point I'm really
- trying to make here is that the reconstruction
- effort that took place in Japan and Germany after WW
- II and the ongoing effort occurring in Iraq at the
- moment are not analogous, and judging from most of
- your replies it appears you are pretty much in
- agreement with me on this matter.

Well, I do agree with you but I dont think there are any analogous wars or reconstruction efforts to begin with.
Different times and different people.
-
- Therefore, individuals within our government or
- anyone else for that matter should really refrain
- from making such poor correlations because it is
- tantamount to misinformation, and the same holds
- true for those individuals who wish to parallel the
- situation in Iraq with what our nation endured while
- fighting in the Vietnam conflict of the 60's and
- 70's.

Again as I stated before, I dont think Bush made that comparison with the intend to misinform anyone. It's a well known History, but I think the reason was more to show that a country that is free from dictatorship and misinformation can prosper like i.e. the Germans and the Japanese.
-
- Concerning the protests, I've not really paid any
- attention to them, and to be quite honest these
- types of events are nothing new. Most western
- democracies pride themselves on allowing their
- citizens to voice their opinions in public
- gatherings as long as they don't act violently
- seditious, so in my opinion the meida buzz
- surrounding these latest protests is unwarranted to
- begin with.

But that is the attitute you see here in these forums from guys like buc and MNG. I haven't noticed one country (including the US) having mass protests against Saddams mass killings, which btw was dead proof.....no pun intended. I can understand the right to protest, but I think they are crossing the line to freedom of speech. I don't think they should have the right to hold a signs that has lies written all over them.
-
-
-
-



<center>
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<font size="4">Lead follow or get out of the way</font size="4">

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 06:44 PM
Hornet57 wrote:
-
- V3-Dev wrote:
-- For the record Hornet, the only point I'm really
-- trying to make here is that the reconstruction
-- effort that took place in Japan and Germany after WW
-- II and the ongoing effort occurring in Iraq at the
-- moment are not analogous, and judging from most of
-- your replies it appears you are pretty much in
-- agreement with me on this matter.
-
- Well, I do agree with you but I dont think there are
- any analogous wars or reconstruction efforts to
- begin with.
- Different times and different people.

Exactly! That is why these people making such invalid comparisons need to focus on the present and not the past.

-- Therefore, individuals within our government or
-- anyone else for that matter should really refrain
-- from making such poor correlations because it is
-- tantamount to misinformation, and the same holds
-- true for those individuals who wish to parallel the
-- situation in Iraq with what our nation endured while
-- fighting in the Vietnam conflict of the 60's and
-- 70's.
-
- Again as I stated before, I dont think Bush made
- that comparison with the intend to misinform anyone.
- It's a well known History, but I think the reason
- was more to show that a country that is free from
- dictatorship and misinformation can prosper like
- i.e. the Germans and the Japanese.

That may very well be the case Hornet, and although the report I posted above does take issue with the President Bush's comments, nobody can really be for sure what correlation he was really attempting to make with such a statement.

Nevertheless, I'm really more concerned with certain individuals from within the current administration and our Congress who in the past have fallaciously linked the Iraqi effort (in light of the security setbacks) with Germany and Japan during their consequent post WW II reconstructions.

-- Concerning the protests, I've not really paid any
-- attention to them, and to be quite honest these
-- types of events are nothing new. Most western
-- democracies pride themselves on allowing their
-- citizens to voice their opinions in public
-- gatherings as long as they don't act violently
-- seditious, so in my opinion the meida buzz
-- surrounding these latest protests is unwarranted to
-- begin with.
-
- But that is the attitute you see here in these
- forums from guys like buc and MNG.

I'm sure they obviously see things in a different light then you, but that is something you should probably take up with the two of them.

- I haven't noticed one country (including the US) having
- mass protests against Saddams mass killings, which btw
- was dead proof.....no pun intended. I can understand the
- right to protest, but I think they are crossing the
- line to freedom of speech. I don't think they should
- have the right to hold a signs that has lies written
- all over them.

I believe you are correct Hornet. I don't ever really recall any protests here in America or in Western Europe in relation to the numerous atrocities perpetrated by Saddam and his Baath regime. Then again, I don't ever recollect any such demonstrations being held to protest the obvious genocides that took place in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia.

Either way, like I mentioned previously, people are ultimately free to gather and voice their opinion in favor or against anything they want as long as it stays peaceful, and this can clearly be done regardless of whatever our own personal convictions might happen to be concerning this latest affair in particular or any other one for that matter.

Message Edited on 11/21/0312:55PM by V3-Dev

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 04:12 AM
V3-Dev wrote:
-
- Either way, like I mentioned previously, people are
- ultimately free to gather and voice their opinion in
- favor or against anything they want as long as it
- stays peaceful, and this can clearly be done
- regardless of whatever our own personal convictions
- might happen to be concerning this latest affair in
- particular or any other one for that matter.
-
- But the problem is that the protests are nothing more then a lob sided political statement against a president they dislike, and nothing to do with solving Iraqs obvious problem, the terrorists that are there to stop the reconstruction.



<center>
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-4/146066/HDZUVJETRBTPXHHFKWSU-Roguefear.jpg

<font size="4">Lead follow or get out of the way</font size="4">

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 06:08 AM
Hornet57 wrote:
-
- V3-Dev wrote:
--
-- Either way, like I mentioned previously, people are
-- ultimately free to gather and voice their opinion in
-- favor or against anything they want as long as it
-- stays peaceful, and this can clearly be done
-- regardless of whatever our own personal convictions
-- might happen to be concerning this latest affair in
-- particular or any other one for that matter.
--
-- But the problem is that the protests are nothing more then a lob sided political statement against a president they dislike, and nothing to do with solving Iraqs obvious problem, the terrorists that are there to stop the reconstruction.

Hornet, I realize everybody is entitled to his and her own opinion concerning this matter. However, regardless of how distasteful you may actually find their tactics, nothing you've mentioned above negates the fact that these protestors were within their legal right to do exactly what they did over the past few days in London.

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 03:53 AM
While it is quite true that the protestors are well within their legal rights as long as their protests are peaceful and not disruptive. Although the same cannot necessarily be said of some members of the British press, such as the one who infiltrated the palace in disguise and then boasted that he could have assassinated the president.

However, Hornet does make a valid point. The protestors are simply against President Bush. At this point in time, I have yet to hear anything even resembling a viable and reasonable alternative to the present situation. Simply saying that the coalition should unilaterally pull out of Iraq indicates a clear disdain for the Iraqi people and that the protesters do not care a whit about them.

A culture of complaint is one of the sadder things to see. While the right to free speech allows people to complain all they want, they and the world would be better served by people using their right to free speech to propose viable alternatives and work for solutions rather than simply attacking things that are not to their liking.

"A person should not choose the form in which he wishes to perform the service of the Lord, but he should perform it in any manner the opportunity affords. He should be like a vessel into which anything may be poured - wine, milk, or water."

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 04:08 AM
Um, not sure if anyone addressed this, but does anyone notice that's he's WAY exagerrating how many troops are being "torn up" in Iraq?

It sounds like my local rag, or, "newspaper" as they like to call it. The front page story was of all these troops that were "killed" in Iraq. Then you read it, and find out they are talking about a helicopter crash.

Wow, I bet a helicopter crashed here in the USA during a training exercise too, why don't we report every one of those and every person who drowns in the rip chord exercise, or every person who dies of a heat-stroke, gets a heart attack, or falls off the roof of a building. Oh yah, that's very important to the legitimacy of this war...

<hr>
--"General Hammond, request permission to beat the crap out of this man." -Col. Jack O'Neill -Stargate SG-1
--Capt. Carter: "You think it might be a booby trap?"
Teal'c: "Booby?"
--"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to catch up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"
--"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"
--"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 05:02 AM
the protesters to be honest could care less about the ppl in iraq or the american G.I. These groups grab any issue and use it against those they oppose. the enviormentalist are a good example. Many in the envioro movemnet are of the same cloth ...they could care less about the humpbacked boweavel or snail darter spotted owls etc. they care about opposing capitalism

lets be honest they hate bush for whatever reason. (pick one) If bush had cured cancer, aids, server lag and other great tragic ailments they would still hate him. The Core members and leaders of the protest groups are SELF DEFINED marxist, anarchist, trotski...ist?, basically Commies. And before someone say that not everyone in the crowd are commies no those are mostly misguided college kids /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif but the leaders...the organisers etc are. The Protest permit in NY for the prewar march was paid for by the world workers party...uh hello?

Intl answer is a marxist group...they even say so ! (dont forget to check their links section /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

http://www.internationalanswer.org

A Web Portal for all Good People around Planet Earth who are
anti-War, anti-Imperialist, anti-Racist, anti-Sexist, and anti-Homophobic
and who want to Fight Back and build together a Better World
(dats a whole lotta anti )
http://www.neravt.com/left/

i had to laugh when i read this bull stuff that has been posted....then i thought of MNG /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

never underestimate the logical power of sarcasm

I am 49 years old and havent lived a day...i am living from now on: Iraqi Citizen after fall of Bagdad