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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:08 PM
OK! After about an hour now of testing (at least), on Buzz's request I've gathered data on the 109-K4 and the Yak-3 and I got some VERY interresting data.


///////////////////////////////////
Level Flight
///////////////////////////////////

Other settings:
-------
- Pitch : Auto or 100%
- Fuel Mix: 100%
- Flaps : RAISED
- Radiator: Closed

BF109-K4:
---------

ALT = 100-150 meters:
--------------------

100%, 290-350 = 14 seconds - START
100%, 290-400 = 25 seconds
100%, 290-450 = 44 seconds
100%, 290-500 = 85 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 500
---

W/WEP 100%, 290-350 = 13 seconds - START
W/WEP 100%, 290-400 = 23 seconds
W/WEP 100%, 290-450 = 42 seconds
W/WEP 100%, 290-500 = 122 seconds - END (note that it took around a 50 seconds just to get it from 490 to 500)
---
TOP SPEED: 500
---

110%, 290-350 = 13 seconds - START
110%, 290-400 = 23 seconds
110%, 290-450 = 37 seconds
110%, 290-500 = 71 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 510
---

W/WEP 110%, 290-350 = 7 seconds - START
W/WEP 110%, 290-400 = 11 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-450 = 19 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-500 = 34 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-550 = 66 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-570 = 121 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 570 (manged to get it to 580 using manual prop pitch)
---

Yak-3:
------

ALT = 100-150 meters:
--------------------

100%, 290-350 = 13 seconds - START
100%, 290-400 = 21 seconds
100%, 290-450 = 32 seconds
100%, 290-500 = 47 seconds
100%, 290-550 = 85 seconds
100%, 290-570 = 130 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 570
---

110%, 290-350 = 14 seconds - START
110%, 290-350 = 22 seconds
110%, 290-450 = 33 seconds
110%, 290-500 = 50 seconds
110%, 290-550 = 90 seconds
110%, 290-570 = 140 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 570
---

Ok, first you will notice the VERY odd situation where using 100% on the Yak-3 is faster than 110%! Flawed logics anyone? I also tried to use manual pitch to see if that was required using 110% power, but no, made no difference. I'm not sure what Oleg was thinking here, maybe there's another rational explanation.

Second off, the 109-K4 is literally a piece of SHIAT without 110% power and WEP enabled. Now I guess it is a good thing there is that WEP bug that enabled you to run it forever (is that correct?). But still the difference between the Yak-3 and BF109-K4 is very little even with WEP and chances are if you try to out-run him he will manage to shoot you from behind before you reach reasonable speeds. Another thing is that on level flight (not sure if being level has anything to do with it but rather your speed) I managed to go 110% with WEP on for exactly 4 minutes before the engine overheated. Now this mean since both the 109 and Yak-3 has exactly the same top speed in these settings, he will eventually catch up to you should you even out-run him initially and thus the whole idea is rather stupid (the only thing you can really hope for is him giving up before the 4 minute mark).

I guess this means the 109-K4 will even be more out-matched when the WEP bug gets fixed -IF- everything else remain the same, though I doubt it will.


///////////////////////////////////
Climb Rate
///////////////////////////////////

Other settings:
-------
- Pitch : Auto or 100%
- Fuel Mix: 100%
- Flaps : RAISED
- Radiator: Closed

BF109-K4:
---------

STARTING ALT = 1000 meters
--------------------------

100%, 100 - 500 = 24 seconds
100%, 100 -1000 = 55 seconds
->
100%, 1000-1500 = 30 seconds
100%, 1000-2000 = 63 seconds
100%, 1000-2500 = 93 seconds
100%, 1000-3000 = 130 seconds
100%, 1000-3500 = 170 seconds
100%, 1000-4000 = 205 seconds


W/WEP 110%, 100 - 500 = 15 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 100 -1000 = 29 seconds
->
W/WEP 100%, 1000-1500 = 19 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-2000 = 46 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-2500 = 75 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-3000 = 100 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-3500 = 127 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-4000 = 185 seconds

FLY for 10 minutes to 8500 meters with WEP on.

Yak-3:
------

100%, 100 - 500 = 22 seconds
100%, 100 -1000 = 45 seconds
->
100%, 1000-2000 = 51 seconds
100%, 1000-2500 = 80 seconds
100%, 1000-3000 = 119 seconds
100%, 1000-3500 = 141 seconds
100%, 1000-4000 = 173 seconds


110%, 100 - 500 = 23 seconds
110%, 100 -1000 = 47 seconds
->
110%, 1000-1500 = 30 seconds
110%, 1000-2000 = 53 seconds
110%, 1000-2500 = 70 seconds
110%, 1000-3000 = 110 seconds
110%, 1000-3500 = 142 seconds (overheat)
110%, 1000-4000 = 167 seconds

Yes, over to climb rates. I did not do as many combinations this time as I expected approximately the same results and I was correct. Again we see the 109 is a POS without the 110% and WEP enabled. Now WITH the WEP it does perform very well but I am afraid that in many situations if you are even slightly dies-advantaged in energy you will be shot down until you get much higher than 2000 meters. Another very interesting fact is that I managed to climb sustained for 10 minutes up to 8000+ meters at WEP and 110%! It seemed running a low speed of 280ish the engine would NEVER overheat (or maybe it is because of the altitude and it's colder up there, URK!?). I'm sure I could go even longer without overheating but it got somewhat boring. That means that if you can drag a Yak-3 up towards 3000-4000 meters his/her days are over. Also the Yak-3 at 110% overheats at 3500 meters. Not that you would ever use 110% however since it's slower than 100% (DOH!).

YAP.

Regards,
dreyer

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:08 PM
OK! After about an hour now of testing (at least), on Buzz's request I've gathered data on the 109-K4 and the Yak-3 and I got some VERY interresting data.


///////////////////////////////////
Level Flight
///////////////////////////////////

Other settings:
-------
- Pitch : Auto or 100%
- Fuel Mix: 100%
- Flaps : RAISED
- Radiator: Closed

BF109-K4:
---------

ALT = 100-150 meters:
--------------------

100%, 290-350 = 14 seconds - START
100%, 290-400 = 25 seconds
100%, 290-450 = 44 seconds
100%, 290-500 = 85 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 500
---

W/WEP 100%, 290-350 = 13 seconds - START
W/WEP 100%, 290-400 = 23 seconds
W/WEP 100%, 290-450 = 42 seconds
W/WEP 100%, 290-500 = 122 seconds - END (note that it took around a 50 seconds just to get it from 490 to 500)
---
TOP SPEED: 500
---

110%, 290-350 = 13 seconds - START
110%, 290-400 = 23 seconds
110%, 290-450 = 37 seconds
110%, 290-500 = 71 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 510
---

W/WEP 110%, 290-350 = 7 seconds - START
W/WEP 110%, 290-400 = 11 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-450 = 19 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-500 = 34 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-550 = 66 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 290-570 = 121 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 570 (manged to get it to 580 using manual prop pitch)
---

Yak-3:
------

ALT = 100-150 meters:
--------------------

100%, 290-350 = 13 seconds - START
100%, 290-400 = 21 seconds
100%, 290-450 = 32 seconds
100%, 290-500 = 47 seconds
100%, 290-550 = 85 seconds
100%, 290-570 = 130 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 570
---

110%, 290-350 = 14 seconds - START
110%, 290-350 = 22 seconds
110%, 290-450 = 33 seconds
110%, 290-500 = 50 seconds
110%, 290-550 = 90 seconds
110%, 290-570 = 140 seconds - END
---
TOP SPEED: 570
---

Ok, first you will notice the VERY odd situation where using 100% on the Yak-3 is faster than 110%! Flawed logics anyone? I also tried to use manual pitch to see if that was required using 110% power, but no, made no difference. I'm not sure what Oleg was thinking here, maybe there's another rational explanation.

Second off, the 109-K4 is literally a piece of SHIAT without 110% power and WEP enabled. Now I guess it is a good thing there is that WEP bug that enabled you to run it forever (is that correct?). But still the difference between the Yak-3 and BF109-K4 is very little even with WEP and chances are if you try to out-run him he will manage to shoot you from behind before you reach reasonable speeds. Another thing is that on level flight (not sure if being level has anything to do with it but rather your speed) I managed to go 110% with WEP on for exactly 4 minutes before the engine overheated. Now this mean since both the 109 and Yak-3 has exactly the same top speed in these settings, he will eventually catch up to you should you even out-run him initially and thus the whole idea is rather stupid (the only thing you can really hope for is him giving up before the 4 minute mark).

I guess this means the 109-K4 will even be more out-matched when the WEP bug gets fixed -IF- everything else remain the same, though I doubt it will.


///////////////////////////////////
Climb Rate
///////////////////////////////////

Other settings:
-------
- Pitch : Auto or 100%
- Fuel Mix: 100%
- Flaps : RAISED
- Radiator: Closed

BF109-K4:
---------

STARTING ALT = 1000 meters
--------------------------

100%, 100 - 500 = 24 seconds
100%, 100 -1000 = 55 seconds
->
100%, 1000-1500 = 30 seconds
100%, 1000-2000 = 63 seconds
100%, 1000-2500 = 93 seconds
100%, 1000-3000 = 130 seconds
100%, 1000-3500 = 170 seconds
100%, 1000-4000 = 205 seconds


W/WEP 110%, 100 - 500 = 15 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 100 -1000 = 29 seconds
->
W/WEP 100%, 1000-1500 = 19 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-2000 = 46 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-2500 = 75 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-3000 = 100 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-3500 = 127 seconds
W/WEP 110%, 1000-4000 = 185 seconds

FLY for 10 minutes to 8500 meters with WEP on.

Yak-3:
------

100%, 100 - 500 = 22 seconds
100%, 100 -1000 = 45 seconds
->
100%, 1000-2000 = 51 seconds
100%, 1000-2500 = 80 seconds
100%, 1000-3000 = 119 seconds
100%, 1000-3500 = 141 seconds
100%, 1000-4000 = 173 seconds


110%, 100 - 500 = 23 seconds
110%, 100 -1000 = 47 seconds
->
110%, 1000-1500 = 30 seconds
110%, 1000-2000 = 53 seconds
110%, 1000-2500 = 70 seconds
110%, 1000-3000 = 110 seconds
110%, 1000-3500 = 142 seconds (overheat)
110%, 1000-4000 = 167 seconds

Yes, over to climb rates. I did not do as many combinations this time as I expected approximately the same results and I was correct. Again we see the 109 is a POS without the 110% and WEP enabled. Now WITH the WEP it does perform very well but I am afraid that in many situations if you are even slightly dies-advantaged in energy you will be shot down until you get much higher than 2000 meters. Another very interesting fact is that I managed to climb sustained for 10 minutes up to 8000+ meters at WEP and 110%! It seemed running a low speed of 280ish the engine would NEVER overheat (or maybe it is because of the altitude and it's colder up there, URK!?). I'm sure I could go even longer without overheating but it got somewhat boring. That means that if you can drag a Yak-3 up towards 3000-4000 meters his/her days are over. Also the Yak-3 at 110% overheats at 3500 meters. Not that you would ever use 110% however since it's slower than 100% (DOH!).

YAP.

Regards,
dreyer

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:21 PM
Go back and read my post again. You didn't follow instructions.

If youuse 100% throttle. WEP DOESN"T WORK! I said to use 103% many times. Wep doesn't start working until 101%.

At 110% throttle, and auto pitch it will be much slower, and over heat.

Once again for the K4 test. Auto pitch, 103% throttle, rad closed, 100% mixture. 200m 630 km/h IAS 645 km/h TAS (no cockpit view)

This applys to climb, and acceleration tests too!

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:24 PM
Wow, this might be the least accurate test in the history of the universe.




---------------------------------

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All will jump and some will die.
Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

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Commanding Officer
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:38 PM
Here's the 103% with WEP on results:

W/WEP 103%, 290-350 = 9 seconds
W/WEP 103%, 290-400 = 17 seconds
W/WEP 103%, 290-450 = 29 seconds
W/WEP 103%, 290-500 = 45 seconds
W/WEP 103%, 290-550 = 74 seconds
W/WEP 103%, 290-570 = 136 seconds
---
TOP SPEED: 580
---

Used Speed Bar and the Cockpit instruments to view speed (which I did for all my test, I had 'cockpit always on').

As you can see it's slower than on 110%. Anyhow I just discovered something COMPLETELY FUI)KED UP! I did this once using 103% and WEP on with 'cockpit always on' otpion, got top speed of 580. Then I turned this option off, and my speed bar now tells me 620(!) while the non-cockpit view tells me 640! WTF!?? This game is so damn bugged it's not even funny. This option actually changes the speed of the aircraft! URK!?!?!

ahahaha

- dreyer

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:39 PM
cowace2 wrote:
- Wow, this might be the least accurate test in the
- history of the universe.
-

Actually, the game is innacurate, not the test.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:46 PM
I never get that. I leave the option to go to no cockpit, because I want to check the TAS speed. Which I can get to 645 km/h easily.


btw Are you using 25% fuel, and no wind?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:51 PM
That is really(!),really(!),really(!) ODD! Seems that with the 'Cockpit always on' enabled all aircrafts go slower (or at least the speed reported back from the speed bar is slower). As I said, my speedbar said 580 with Cockpit enforced on and when I turned that option off it actually made my aircraft report back 620 from the same speed bar. OKAY? Really weird. No wonder there has been so much confusion on how fast the aircraft can actually go.

After checking I was using 100% fuel. Not sure where you can set wind, but weather was 'clear'.

Although the speeds might be lower than not using 'cockpit always on' my tests are still accurate for anyone that fly with full real. And the speed ratio will still be the same regardless if you use cockpit on or not.

Wonder if other settings affect top aircraft speed as well, lol!

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:56 PM
- If youuse 100% throttle. WEP DOESN"T WORK! I said
- to use 103% many times. Wep doesn't start working
- until 101%.

Just to let you know you're wrong there bud. WEP does work at 100% as well, just the increased performance is not very significant.

EDIT: Actually, maybe it does not work.



Message Edited on 06/18/03 08:57PM by sdreyer

Message Edited on 06/18/0308:57PM by sdreyer

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:58 PM
Alot of people talk about 103% throttle, but you can just use 105%. (same speed and alot easier to get to)

But either way it's the same top speed as 110% throttle and 60% prop pitch.

Never do test with the cockpit on. Use the actual speed guages of the cockpit off.

Turn the wind off in the realism settings.

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<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:03 PM
No, you don't understand. Having the option 'Cockpit always on' ENABLED means all aircraft go slower (rofl). Using the SPEED BAR (SPEED BAR OPTION IN DIFFICULTIES SETTING) it reports back a speed difference of 40 Km/h with 'Cockpit always on' disabled! Test it your self, it's obviosuly a very serious bug.

I will never do tests with 'cockpit always on' disabled, because I never fly with the cockpit off.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:05 PM
Ray,

I haven't tested to much on this, but I say 103%, because it will give top speed, and it seems you can go the longest without overheat. Needs more testing though.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:09 PM
But don't forget RBJ, why go 105% with wep when 103 does the same with wep and a little less overheating, sure its minimal, but I'll take what I can get. Just gotta stop my darn throttle from spiking now.... ack.

Oh and if Wep does work at 100% (I don't think it does) its helps so little that u might as well be going 1% faster for the big increase.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:11 PM
Oh and doesn't the speedbar at the bottom left, and the actual speed in the cockpit differ from the TAS? so its not really going slower its just reading it slightly different.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:13 PM
sdreyer wrote:
-
- No, you don't understand. Having the option 'Cockpit
- always on' ENABLED means all aircraft go slower
- (rofl). Using the SPEED BAR (SPEED BAR OPTION IN
- DIFFICULTIES SETTING) it reports back a speed
- difference of 40 Km/h with 'Cockpit always on'
- disabled! Test it your self, it's obviosuly a very
- serious bug.
-
- I will never do tests with 'cockpit always on'
- disabled, because I never fly with the cockpit off.
-
-

Uhm, in the non-cockpit view the airspeed indicator report your true airspeed, with cockpit on - you can only see indicated airspeed.

afaik...

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:14 PM
I can go the same top speed at 102% as 103% (throttle, prop pitch on auto, 109K4 with WEP, wind turned off, cowl closed, 25% gas, exactly 10m over the ocean, 640km/h)

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:15 PM
Yes, the reason you're getting different speeds, is because one is Indicated Air Speed, which becomes innacurate with altitude, and one is True Air Speed, which is your actual speed in relation to the ground.

---------------------------------
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:15 PM
AS˜DASDJAL˜SJDA˜SLKJASDL˜AKJSD!

God, I KNOW, that's not the point! I'll make screenshots so you understand the problem! BRB....

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:16 PM
Unfortunately, this will be fixed in the upcoming patch, so we won't get to whine about it anymore /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Its just one blow after another.

Message Edited on 06/18/0303:16PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:34 PM
Whats going to be fixed and where does it say they will?

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:34 PM
UGH! NVM, sorry, I guess the wind was the cause. Gay, my tests are not that accurate now, whatever, I give up.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:38 PM
What I don't understand is how there can be such a difference between IAS and TAS at 50m?

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.... Adolf Galland
<center>

http://www.huntress.com/images/MichaelHaberlin.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:54 PM
i always thought it was TAS ( true air speed ) in nocockpit view = actualy speed through the air..

and speed bar was speed in relation to the ground so imo the cockpit speed gauge should be TAS?

the higher you go the longer it would take to cover the same amount of distance on the ground bcos of the arc of the earth at the same speed..

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:19 PM
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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:27 PM
One possible strangeness with 100% / 110% is probably due to prop drag. Whenever the throttle is set higher than the prop pitch it appears that it causes some small amount of windmilling effect to create drag. Set a soviet plane to 100%prop / 10% throttle and it will drop like a rock. This is probably just another symptom of the screwed up prop pitch system.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:43 PM
IAS is what the cockpit gauge reads...This gauge is fed from the pitot tube and measures air pressure at tube.It is calculated with the pressure at sea level.So it reads 250 by sensing that amount of air going thru.As a plane gains alt the amount of air gets less and so you appear to be going slower due to the pitot tube getting less air.TAS is an estimated adjustment for alt differnces in pressure.

You also have to adjust for airports at different alt because your pitot will most likely be tuned for an airport at sea level.So when your landing at a 4000ft elevation airport your IAS will be saying your doing 100mph and in fact your coming in at 250(example).the air traffic controller will love you/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:46 PM
ok so they read lower bcos of lower atmospheric pressure , so was there any need to poke fun ? a simple explanation would of done.. muppet..

though thats what i would expect i guess.


btw good exlanation Wolf.. my post was not dircted at you btw

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Message Edited on 06/18/0310:48PM by Welshman_PF