PDA

View Full Version : Why won't droptanks blowup



adadaead
05-06-2004, 07:45 AM
How come when i jettison droptanks they don't explode. I'm asking this cause i seen this old Vietnam movie, and a swaud of soldiers was jammed down by a mg nest or an apc or something and they called the pilot who was flying nearby, and and pilot like "I'don;t have any bombs on me sir" and crazy squad commander like "Well do have droptanks" or he ask something like that and pillot said yes, and then crazy comander like"Well use your drop tnaks as a bomb boy" os he did and poor vietnamese fried to hell.

Plus in a movie "behind enemy lines" they droped their droptanks to get away from the russian AA rocket (which is impossible http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif by the way) and their drop tanks exploded too. In FB they don't even mede slashes. AO yeah i just answered my own question they just didn't made them explode. But i hope this somehow get to the developers and they will try to fix it if they want. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.

adadaead
05-06-2004, 07:45 AM
How come when i jettison droptanks they don't explode. I'm asking this cause i seen this old Vietnam movie, and a swaud of soldiers was jammed down by a mg nest or an apc or something and they called the pilot who was flying nearby, and and pilot like "I'don;t have any bombs on me sir" and crazy squad commander like "Well do have droptanks" or he ask something like that and pillot said yes, and then crazy comander like"Well use your drop tnaks as a bomb boy" os he did and poor vietnamese fried to hell.

Plus in a movie "behind enemy lines" they droped their droptanks to get away from the russian AA rocket (which is impossible http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif by the way) and their drop tanks exploded too. In FB they don't even mede slashes. AO yeah i just answered my own question they just didn't made them explode. But i hope this somehow get to the developers and they will try to fix it if they want. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.

Arm_slinger
05-06-2004, 07:57 AM
I think you'll find that those drop tanks were napalm canisters.

I also detect the sickly scent of hollywood as well.

As for drop tanks exploding on impact i dont know, i would doubt it in a way as i know the US aircraft used tanks made up of some form of paper mixture so that the germans couldnt use aluminium dropped instead. With paper there is no spark risk so i cant see there being much chance of it going bang

Maybe someone does know what will happen

242Sqn_Kye-
Pilot of 242 Squadron

Sim lover?, want something new? Then look at "Target for Tonight the definitive night bombing simulation ever, featuring the RAF's Bomber Command.

www.nightbomber.com/forums (http://www.nightbomber.com/forums)
Also the home of 242 Squadron "Baders Bastards"

tsisqua
05-06-2004, 08:34 AM
Most of the time, IIRC, they did NOT explode on impact . . . . BUT!

There was the 20th FG's habit of dropping the tanks into trains, then igniting the spilled fuel with MG's. Now that is what I'd like to be able to do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Tsisqua

Baltar
05-06-2004, 09:09 AM
I've never seen a drop tank light up from enemy fire while still attached to the plane. Can this happen in the game? If not it should.

tsisqua
05-06-2004, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baltar:
I've never seen a drop tank light up from enemy fire while still attached to the plane. Can this happen in the game? If not it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed

Chuck_Older
05-06-2004, 10:14 AM
I would hesitate to use a movie as a basis for what is fact and what is not, adadaead http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sure drop tanks could explode. Car gas tanks can explode. But just because it happened in a movie doesn't mean that it is a likely event http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I'd use another source for illustrating my points, if I were you.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2004, 10:14 AM
Well, Droptanks are not supposed to blow-up, that's the whole point. They have no detonator system and they are designed NOT to blow spontaneosly. Imagine what a mess it would be if it exploded, while still attached to your aircraft.

You can test it yourself. Take any ordinary (metal) jerrycan, containing something that looks like fuel and drop it from the highest place you can get to. The Jerrycan will probably be destroyed and the fuel leaks out but, there'll be no fire of some kind.

It could be that the fuel splashing out of the fuel tanks in the movie was set in flame with some bullets but, I doubt it. Probably some Hollywood tricks.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baltar:
I've never seen a drop tank light up from enemy fire while still attached to the plane. Can this happen in the game? If not it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen guncamera footage that shows the droptank, hanging on some kind of FW-190, setting on fire. No big explosion, just a flame. It does make sense. Droptanks aren't armored and bullets should pierce it easily. I've done this myself in FB a few times.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/JaVAPlatypus-1java.JPG (http://www.1java.org)

Xnomad
05-06-2004, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adadaead:
How come when i jettison droptanks they don't explode. I'm asking this cause i seen this old Vietnam movie, and a swaud of soldiers was jammed down by a mg nest or an apc or something and they called the pilot who was flying nearby, and and pilot like "I'don;t have any bombs on me sir" and crazy squad commander like "Well do have droptanks" or he ask something like that and pillot said yes, and then crazy comander like"Well use your drop tnaks as a bomb boy" os he did and poor vietnamese fried to hell.

Plus in a movie "behind enemy lines" they droped their droptanks to get away from the russian AA rocket (which is impossible http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif by the way) and their drop tanks exploded too. In FB they don't even mede slashes. AO yeah i just answered my own question they just didn't made them explode. But i hope this somehow get to the developers and they will try to fix it if they want. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Only in the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it may be.



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
"Behind Enemy Lines" now there is a film I didn't watch till the end, this one deserves to go into the "Worst War Movie" thread.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

chris455
05-06-2004, 12:12 PM
It isn't easy to ignite fuel unless it is in the correct ratio with air.

P-47 pilots manual describes the fuel tanks as "additional protection" from gunfire (the pilot sat on the main tank).

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

ColoradoBBQ
05-06-2004, 12:21 PM
Flaming droptanks do explode because the fire would cook the fuel to boiling point. If the fuel air pressure is larger than what the drop tank can hold, it'll rupture and the gas would ignite with the oxygen in the air. I've seen it happen in a chemistry demonstration.

Matz0r
05-06-2004, 01:07 PM
German drop tanks had a text written on them offering a reichsmarks reward for returning found drop tanks to nearest airfield.

http://home.swipnet.se/hotascougar/pics/p40blam.gif

Franzen
05-06-2004, 01:07 PM
I have guncam footage of a droptank on a 109 bursting into flames. I think it had to do more with spilling fuel and wind pressure and not an explosion. It would also depend on the amout of fuel in the tank. The more fuel the less likely to explode. The fuel needs to evaporate to combust. As a former firefighter, we were always relieved to get to a car fire where as we found out the tank was fulll of gas. An empty tank is much more dangerous.

Then you also need to ignite the fuel. Drop tanks were usually aluminium. It's not easy to make aluminium spark by impact. The tank would need to hit something very hard. What are the chances of that?

Fritz Franzen

adlabs6
05-06-2004, 01:56 PM
The last time I checked, the P40 drop tank WILL explode, and it will even respond to the bomb delay timer! Test it and see if it still works.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
My FB/FS2004 Pages (http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/) | IL2skins (http://www.il2skins.com) | OMEGASQUADRON (http://777avg.com/omegasquad/) | ScreenshotArt.com (http://www.screenshotart.com/home.php)

BS87
05-06-2004, 03:57 PM
On the jug, if you get hit by mg fire, sometimes (its very rare), your drop tanks will catch on fire, but they burn out quickly. I've only had this happen twice.

p1ngu666
05-06-2004, 04:23 PM
Then you also need to ignite the fuel. Drop tanks were usually aluminium. It's not easy to make aluminium spark by impact. The tank would need to hit something very hard. What are the chances of that?

the ground?
americans went to alu drop tanks btw, was easier for them
paper ones contaminated the fuel
heard or droppin them and shootin them inflight for naplam effect

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

RS_Shiesty
05-06-2004, 05:10 PM
I've run a few tests and couldn't get the droptanks to explode (in air or dropped) but I managed to light up a p47's droptank.

On an interesting side note, droptanks will skip over water like bombs. Not that this is of any use but just another little tidbit.

http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif (http://www.il2airracing.com)

tsisqua
05-06-2004, 07:06 PM
Well, I just set up a little test. I used FMB to put a P-38 on the runway w/d-tanks. I dropped them right there on the runway, and watched from outside. The second they "touched" the runway, they disappeared, just like landing AI. I believe that while they are falling, they have no real ability to do anything. Only when they are attached to the plane are they of any real value.

Tsisqua

darkhorizon11
05-06-2004, 07:47 PM
Yeah the drop tank thing is probably to much to model and they are pretty small so although it did happen I'm sure it wasn't a common occurance.

One question I do have would be about the danger of bombs hanging below the plane. All those explosives below a plane couldn't a cannon shot easily set it off? Obviously isn't modeled but did it ever happen???

BennyMoore
05-06-2004, 08:04 PM
Well, I don't know, but in World War Two, the bombs had a pin on the nose that had to be pressed to set them off. A bullet probably wouldn't set off the bomb, unless it just happened to do the same thing to the mechanism that pushing the pin does (say, joining two wires or something equally improbable).

Currently, it would be different, because modern bombs are usually impact detonated.

SKIDRO_79FS
05-06-2004, 09:56 PM
The reward for drop tanks offered by the Luftwaffe wasn't just for theirs it was for any and all aluminum drop tanks, when Capt. Jack Ilfrey was evading through France in mid-June 1944 he was forced to go through a Luftwaffe airfield and saw stacks of USAAF drop tanks that had been brought there for the reward.

That reward was one reason for the move to the paper drop tanks by the USAAF, the other was the amount of aluminum that could be saved for use in manufacturing another fighter plane or bomber for the Allied war effort.

I have read several instances where an enemy aircraft's drop tank was hit and exploded and remember one story where the enemy pilot actually jettisoned the flaming tank and managed to get away. There is also the above mentioend footage of both a Fw-190 and an Me-109 both with their drop tanks on fire.

As for drop tanks "exploding", I would like to offer up this little tid-bit paraphrased from a 20th. Fighter Group after mission report dated 21 November 1944:

" Lt. Jim Reichard had a narrow escape today. While taking off his plane settled suddenly after having hit a bump, causing his drop tanks and propellor to scrape the runway. One of the drop tanks was knocked off and Reichard dropped the other moments becoming airborne. This caused what was described as a "short but spectacular fire" in the field across the King's Cliffe Road opposite the end of the runway. He continued on to Wittering where he landed safely."

Note that it does not mention anywhere that there was any source of ignition mentioned for the tank he dropped after getting airborne.


Tsisqua is correct about the 20th. Ftr. Grp. dropping their tanks on trains then setting off the spilled fuel with their machine guns, it wasn't the standard operating procedure but there were several instances of this happening in that one group alone. I have also read about a 9th. AF group that did this.

Victory By Valor!
SKIDRO

SwingerSpecial
05-06-2004, 10:48 PM
LOL @ Returnable drop tanks.... Leave it to the germans to come up with something as brilliant as this. Simple, effective, and ecological!-D I suppose SC-500's would be listed as "NRB" ;-)

SKIDRO_79FS
05-06-2004, 11:47 PM
LOL! If found please return to Herr Goering for deposit! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Charos
05-07-2004, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matz0r:
German drop tanks had a text written on them offering a reichsmarks reward for returning found drop tanks to nearest airfield.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just read this recently myself - Apparently 10 ReichMarks were offered, Police stations were also set up to exchange cash for drop Tanks as well.

Sam311
05-07-2004, 03:17 AM
[/QUOTE]
"Behind Enemy Lines" now there is a film I didn't watch till the end, this one deserves to go into the "Worst War Movie" thread.
[/QUOTE]

that movie was a joke http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Franzen
05-07-2004, 11:19 AM
p1ngu666,

I really haven't seen much ground that is hard enough to produce sparks from aluminium impacting it. I was looking at a droptank on a P-51 two days ago. The aluminium is pretty thin. The denting upon impact would absorb a lot of shock. Also, what are the chances of a droptank in WW2 hitting a rock?

My father owns a large trucking company. If you've ever taken notice, fuel tanks on trucks are aluminium and quite often get destroyed by cars. Never heard of one exploding on impact.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's improbable.

Fritz Franzen

jeroen_R90S
05-07-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
p1ngu666,
{snippetysnap}

My father owns a large trucking company. If you've ever taken notice, fuel tanks on trucks are aluminium and quite often get destroyed by cars. Never heard of one exploding on impact.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying it's improbable.

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Diesel doesn't explode... Believe me, I've tried http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jeroen

Dash_C.
05-07-2004, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baltar:
I've never seen a drop tank light up from enemy fire while still attached to the plane. Can this happen in the game? If not it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can and does, but only on the P-47. Tanks can leak, smoke, ignite, and explode. I'm fairly certain that it only works on the Jug, though.

BerkshireHunt
05-07-2004, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
My father owns a large trucking company.
Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not 'Norbert Dentressangle' by any chance?

FatBoyHK
05-07-2004, 05:50 PM
Drop tank wouldn't blow up normally. Anyone read Bud Anderson's "To fly and flight?" On the last mission he flied in WWII, he, and his wingmate, Chuck Yeager, were flying backup (in case any squadmates need to break off en route to the target). Everyone were running well, so supposeingly they may go home, or they can carry on the mission if they like.

They didn't go home, but they didn't carry on the mission either. Instead, they flew to Switherland, and they dropped their tanks on one of the peaks there. Then, they tried to set the tanks on fire by shooting them. After several passes, they did succeed, and after watching a nice campfire, they went home.

Once back home their crews ask how many kills they got. They found out that their squadron had had a good hunting day, almost everyone has a kill, and some have even 3. It is very rare, considering how bad-shape LW was in 1945...

diomedes33
05-07-2004, 06:03 PM
oops didn't see FatBoyHK already posted this.

heh, I read Chuck Yeagers Autobiography, and he said they couldn't get it to light up.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Driver609
05-07-2004, 09:10 PM
For anything to burn you need Fuel, Heat and Oxygen in the right combinations. Fuels like diesel and kerosene do not burn very easily (although when you can get them to burn they burn very fiercely) The reason they work in combustion engines is that they get turn into a fine spray that mixes them well with the available oxygen, then compressed, which makes it easier for them to burn, then ignited.
It would take exceptional circumstances for a droptank (or any kind of tank) to actually explode. They may burn if hit by an incindiary round and burn but to explode they would need to be nearly empty so there was a lot of fuel vapour mixed in with the oxygen (fuel itself doesn't burn, the vapour does) and it would probably need to be heated first as well (to increase the pressure and add heat to reduce the energy required to reach flashpoint).
If a tank, for example a barbecue gas cylinder containing Liquid Petroleum Gas, is heated violently and exposed to an ingnition source (a spark, open flame etc.) the resulting explolsion is known as a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion), and is one of the most powerful explosions around. It is the same thing that makes the US Militarys' MOAB bomb so destructive.
So...... droptanks exploding when dropped - VERY unlikely. Droptanks being used to spread fuel over thinkgs then ignited with incindiary rounds - possible depending on type of fuel used.

SKIDRO_79FS
05-08-2004, 02:28 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif I give up... What exactly consitutes proof that something actually happened? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

ptegomerpyle
05-08-2004, 03:21 AM
In the book by Janes "Battles with the luftwaffe"

About day time bombing over Europe, there are photos of familys stood posing with drop tanks from escort fighters that landed in there garden, quite intact.

Holywood or Janes? hmmmmmmm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Its a very remote chance a spark would be created from a drop tank hitting the ground, and of course an almost empty one that was mostly vapours would explode best.

http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v32/PrivatePyle/monkeysig.gif (http://www.virtualnicotine.com)

BrassEm
05-08-2004, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baltar:
I've never seen a drop tank light up from enemy fire while still attached to the plane. Can this happen in the game? If not it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree totally. I've seen so much gun camera footage where strikes on external drop tanks light up the aircraft. It most definitely should be modelled into a combat sim, including High Explosive ammunition hung in and under the aircraft as well!

Cheers,

Brass Em.

Curly_109
05-08-2004, 08:03 AM
i would like to ask another question: why an empty drop tank wouldn't explode in this game?

believe me i've shoot friendly A/C in their empty droptanks just to see this but nothing. and i'm surely hit it.

i remember that several players saying that they have been hit in their empty droptanks & were instantly blown http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

BS87
05-08-2004, 08:47 AM
I've tested almost all droptanks in this game, and the only ones i can get to ignite are the p47's. Also, Brassem, i'm pretty sure that if you shoot for the centerline (enclosed) bombload in a PE8 you can hit the bombs and detonate them. My buddy took out a flight of PE8s by hitting the nuke. There is no cloud, the planes just disintegrate.

BS87
05-08-2004, 09:03 AM
Just went and made a .ntrk of the p47's droptanks, but i've go nowhere to upload it =(

FatBoyHK
05-08-2004, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
oops didn't see FatBoyHK already posted this.

heh, I read Chuck Yeagers Autobiography, and he said they couldn't get it to light up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha, may be I am wrong :P But I am sure that they did tried to light them uphttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

diomedes33
05-08-2004, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by diomedes33:
oops didn't see FatBoyHK already posted this.

heh, I read Chuck Yeagers Autobiography, and he said they couldn't get it to light up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha, may be I am wrong :P But I am sure that they did tried to light them uphttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just shows that a story told twice is never the same. Wasn't saying you were wrong, I was laughing about the irony that Anderson said it lit up and Yeager said it didn't.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

SKIDRO_79FS
05-08-2004, 07:15 PM
Here are just three more examples I found during a cursory scan through the after mission reports from the 312 missions flown by the 20th. Fighter Group between 28 December 1943 and 25 April 1945:

- Excerpt from After Mission Report, 20th. Fighter Group Mission #117, 27 June 1944-

"The 20th. Ftr. Grp. was dispatched to attack rail and highway transportation between Vitry and Paris. Each plane carried a 265 lbs. fragmentation bomb and one belly tank that was dropped on targets before strafing to start fires..."

"... The 77th. Squadron dropped belly tanks on Fournes Marshalling Yard then bombed a 15 car ammunition train at Hirson..."

-Excerpt From After Mission Report, 20th. Ftr. Grp. Mission # 302, 9 April 1945-
"On take-off, this morning, 2nd. Lt. Richard Iehle lost power, ran off the end of Runway 08, crossed two fields and ended up in a third on his back. In a few moments the wrecking crews had lifted up the tail of the plane, and Lt. Iehle was removed, somewhat dazed by it all but uninjured. He had dropped his wing tanks before leaving the end of the runway, and though they cuased a big fire, he was safely clear of it when his plane flipped over in the soft earth."

-Excerpt From After Mission Report, 20th. Ftr. Grp. Mission # 203, 20 February, 1945-
"The Group arrived at Nurnberg at 1150 and according to plan the Squadrons split up and began to attack rail and aircraft targets in their assigned areas. The 55th. Squadron, led by Lt. Col. Robert Montgomery, headed east and southeastward and very soon ran into a number of rail and radio targets which they viciously attacked with machine gun fire and belly tanks, destroying locomotives, tank cars and a number of freight cars. Col. Montgomery ran into two large radio stations west of Nurnberg and he and his flight thoroughly clobbered them. Lt. McNeel's flight encountered a 75 car freight train just south of Nurnberg. Theyw ere unable to get the locomotive, which was in a ravine, but Lts. McNeel and Peel whacked 4 or 5 freight cars with their belly tanks and Lt. Solomon followed strafing, causing large fires to start among the cars, at least four of which were destroyed."

From the looks of it there must have been more than a few instances where the right combinations of fuel, heat and oxygen were reached.

This is not speculation, it is historical fact. As for the Hollywood reference above, the footage that has been mentioned is real gun camera footage and not anything created by Industrial Light and Magic. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Finally, yes, BrassEm, explosive rounds getting stuck should be modelled as well, it happened to a number of the former USAAF pilots I have spoken with. In one instance it caused some pretty dramatic damage to his aircraft and the trip home was quite nerve-wracking.

[This message was edited by SKIDRO_79FS on Sat May 08 2004 at 06:46 PM.]

[This message was edited by SKIDRO_79FS on Sat May 08 2004 at 06:47 PM.]

Driver609
05-09-2004, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SKIDRO_79FS:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif I give up... What exactly consitutes proof that something actually happened? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who was denying that these things happened? None of these reports say anything about tanks exploding, merely being dropped, rupturing, and then the contents being set fire to. The tank that was scraped and caught fire could well occur when the friction from scraping on the ground provided an ignition source for the fuel venting from a damaged tank. For the same sort of "short but spectacular fire" in miniature try the old fly spray and lighter trick.
I was merely trying to explain why tanks exploding would be a very rare occurence.
But then, what would I know, I'm only a firefighter/paramedic with a degree in Arson Investigation and a BSc http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Chuck_Older
05-09-2004, 07:05 AM
I'm confused Skid-

It seems you are arguing that the tanks can and will explode sometimes, which is fine. It can happen.

But what confuses hell out of me in your posts is that in your examples, you don't seem to cite many instances of explosions, you cite instances of fires.

In fact, I don't think I can find one. In the first one you cite that I see, it is unclear what happened, but the others are certainly just fires, aren't they?

Even the tank that hit the tarmac was just a fire. The tanks dropped on freight trains were ignited with gunfire- not blown up, just a fire. The tanks on the crahed plane burned rather than exploded.

I am sorry to point it out because I realise that explosion is a real hazard, but can you use an example that describes an explosion to illustrate your point? Citing causes of fires doesn't support your explosion argumant very well. I am into old cars and I am friendly with a very good welder. He has described two harrowing, short, intense fires to me that he was involved in, concerning almost empty automobile gas tanks. He can't understand why the burned rather than exploded. Naturally, since he is still walking and talking, he hasn't been involved in one exploding at his shop http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But explosion is a very real concern to this competent professional- he's just never seen it.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Franzen
05-09-2004, 09:21 AM
Hi Chuck,

Sorry, I don't have time to read everything but I did read your last post. I'd just like to mention that my friend died in a gas tank explosion some years back. After reading what you said about your friend it reminded me of what happened and made me think a little. Maybe the one tank that exploded and killed my friend had the cap still on while your friend's burning tanks didn't. Just a though, not debating.

Fritz Franzen

NegativeGee
05-09-2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
I have guncam footage of a droptank on a 109 bursting into flames. I think it had to do more with spilling fuel and wind pressure and not an explosion. It would also depend on the amout of fuel in the tank. The more fuel the less likely to explode. The fuel needs to evaporate to combust. As a former firefighter, we were always relieved to get to a car fire where as we found out the tank was fulll of gas. An empty tank is much more dangerous.
Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a really good point..... a stark example of this is the Challenger Shuttle disaster in 1986. The footage looks like there is an explosion of the main fuel tank, but NASA's investigatin determined the fuel had just burnt very rapidly, with the Orbiter breaking up due to aerodynamic stress.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

lil_labbit
05-09-2004, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I'm confused Skid-
He has described two harrowing, short, intense fires to me that he was involved in, concerning almost empty automobile gas tanks. He can't understand why the burned rather than exploded. Naturally, since he is still walking and talking, he hasn't been involved in one exploding at his shop http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But explosion is a very real concern to this competent professional- he's just never seen it.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's all a question of Fuel and Oxidiser. Now these come in different flavours... A normal gasoline / air mixture will burn NOT explode (there is not enough energy in it).

An explosion will occur ONLY if the oxidisation process will PRODUCE more fuel, like a mixture of diesel, and virtilizer - some components missing here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - dont do this at home http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. In the oxidisation process the vertilizer will break down into flamable components and oxigen thus accelerating the burn into an explosion...

explosion = accelerating burn

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/lilseesya.jpg
Night is better than Day

Franzen
05-09-2004, 09:53 AM
Although I haven't seen much of Europe I imagine it to have quite a "soft" landscape. Meaning it has a lot of vegetation. We also have to consider the speed of a falling tank. I remember reading that a human can't fall any faster than 180mph in ambiant air pressure.

I therefore come to three conclusions;
(a)there was no point of dropping bomber crews due to the little damage they would cause upon impact.

(b)some drop tanks were dropped and hit castles(made of hardstuff)which is the reason there are so few kings and queens in Europe today.

(c) this discussion seems to be going nowhere http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Has anyone here, in all their years of reading, ever read even one instance of a droptank exploding after impacting the ground? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif(Hollywood excluded)

Fritz Franzen

tsisqua
05-09-2004, 02:46 PM
Whether we want to call it a "fast burn" or an "explosion" is really a moot point here. Neither is modelled in the game.


Oh, yeah, that's why we were discussing this in the first place.

When your drop tank leaves the plane, it is merely "eye-candy" from there on out. When it touches the ground, it disappears.

Tsisqua

Chuck_Older
05-09-2004, 04:58 PM
Fritz, sorry to hear about your friend. I attended two funerals for friends my age before I turned 27, so I can understand your loss a little. I am truly sorry to hear about it.


labbit-

I understand flashpoint, volatility, and some other things, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But I refute your statement about a normal air/fuel mixture not being able to explode. My car's engine says you're mistaken http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I get detonation if I screw up the ignition curve enough, too, so sometimes my spark plugs have little to do with combustion- it's the hot spots on my piston tops.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

lil_labbit
05-09-2004, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:

labbit-

I understand flashpoint, volatility, and some other things, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif But I refute your statement about a normal air/fuel mixture not being able to explode. My car's engine says you're mistaken http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I get detonation if I screw up the ignition curve enough, too, so sometimes my spark plugs have little to do with combustion- it's the hot spots on my piston tops.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right (sorta) - compression will put-in energy (which I should have been talking about...) But if compression isn't there... hehe then I'm right (at "normal" temperature/presure etc http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif we were talking about canisters of aviation fuel for a prop plane ya know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (at least I thought we were)

...even so I stand by my statement - EVEN in a combustion engine NO explosion takes place its a BURNING process - the expansion of the gas is acountable for the mechanical energy on the piston... it is NOT an explosion...

unless.... just one example - you pump in nitro.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (get my drift?)

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/lilseesya.jpg
Night is better than Day

[This message was edited by lil_labbit on Sun May 09 2004 at 04:25 PM.]

Chuck_Older
05-09-2004, 05:24 PM
I knew what you meant http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'm cheating, putting compression into the mix.

But what about detonation? That's why I keyed on detonation instead of combustion. Well, I suppose I'm cheating there, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

lil_labbit
05-09-2004, 05:32 PM
First law of explosion:

Components MUST produce BOTH oxigen and another component that likes to oxidize - when it does...
then you get...

(a little energy + a little fuel + a little oxigen) &lt; (resulting situation which is burned - oxidized - fuel + a little MORE fuel + MORE oxigen)

the right side of the equation has MORE potential energy (for a while) than the left which leads to an avalanche of dynamic energy (local heat & pressure) and thus an explosion (accelerated burn = explosion) only when the expanding (detonation is the first spark) gases reach the velocity of sound (about 430m/s) you can talk about an explosion (boom!)

this cannot be done with normal combustion engine fuel - it CAN be done with special fuels/accelerators...

now where did I displace my Anarchist Cookbook (gotte be somewhere on my drives lol) that had the right formulea

http://members.home.nl/lil.labbit/lilseesya.jpg
Night is better than Day

[This message was edited by lil_labbit on Sun May 09 2004 at 04:43 PM.]

[This message was edited by lil_labbit on Sun May 09 2004 at 04:46 PM.]