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View Full Version : As a Warden main, I have some suggestions...



Mighty_Mackerel
08-08-2017, 06:58 AM
As stated, I am a Warden main, and I have to agree that the shoulder bash cancel into guard break is broken. Canceling the shoulder bash is fine, but canceling the shoulder bash into a guard break is what is causing the problem. Unless the enemy has a dodge attack like the Orochi, Kensei, Peacekeeper or Berserker, he has to play a literal guessing game in which he has to either guess if the Warden is going to go through with his shoulder bash and therefore dodge it, or guess if he's going to cancel into a guard break and therefore stand still and wait for it to happen and then proceed to counter guard break. There's no room for the enemy to rely on his reaction skills. So, the only way to avoid the guessing game, is to roll away completely. But we all know that takes up practically half of your stamina and constantly puts the players back to neutral position and thus enter into an annoying game of keep away.

So, I think in order to avoid this, Ubisoft can do one of these three things:

1. Substantially reduce the amount of stamina it takes to roll away.
2. Make it so that you can still attempt to guard break if the enemy manages to guard break you in the middle of your dodge. (But that's probably even more game breaking)
3. Give the Warden some kind of tiny buff so that way he doesn't have to rely so damn much on his shoulder bash or top light attack for that matter, and while your at it, buff the Orochi and the Conqueror as well since they too are practically one trick ponies at this point.

Those are my suggestions and my opinion, though. What does anyone else think?

Knight_Raime
08-08-2017, 10:50 AM
1) No. imo there should never be a move/action that gets you out of a mix up/guess game where you trump anything in the mix up/mind game without having to read properly. I doubt roll will go anywhere. but it doesn't need a buff.

2) would be OP. people like warlord and raider can already CGB from dodging though.

3) I don't see why we need to really buff wardens other moves. His side lights continue/start his vortex. his top light continues/starts his vortex and serves as a way in on a reactionary player due to crushing counter. his top heavy works on a fully charged landed SB or a GB from a parry for a wall splat. his side heavies are max damage when not near a wall during GB and don't want to continue vortex. His double heavy combo can be feinted or let fly. And I think you might be able to land both if you throw right while the person is OOS. (prolly wrong there) the feint lets you enter with crushing counter. To put it simply. there is like one. maybe 2 things he doesn't often use. (zone being one since it's unsafe on block)

Orochi does need a pretty big push. conq doesn't really considering full block feints and the sheer amount of absurdity you can do with that alone.
I don't think warden is in need of another nerf. they already increased it's stamina cost and made it so you can only cancel in the beginning few MS of the bash. and added a delay so you can't literally spam SB cancels.

I get that some people don't like that warden plays around SB. But that doesn't mean he needs changing. his kit is perfectly viable as is. A lot more that a majority of the other kits out there. and warden is basically one of if not the most balanced kits currently as well.

Draghmar
08-08-2017, 11:08 AM
and warden is basically one of if not the most balanced kits currently as well.
Having spammable move is not what I consider balanced moveset. Especially when whole tactic of Warden depends on this move. You can say that he has options. But those options would be nothing if you'd remove this one move.
You want balanced moveset? Nobushi. There is no single stupid aka safe move and you have to actually make some effort in order to attack efficiently. There is no great health pool, no super armor, no hyper armor or whatever. Just pure skill and mixing attacks. And to prevent some weird questions like 'So why there is no Nobushi in top tournaments?' - exactly because there is no safe moves so it's harder to play, especially against kits that has those.

Knight_Raime
08-08-2017, 11:17 AM
Having spammable move is not what I consider balanced moveset. Especially when whole tactic of Warden depends on this move. You can say that he has options. But those options would be nothing if you'd remove this one move.
You want balanced moveset? Nobushi. There is no single stupid aka safe move and you have to actually make some effort in order to attack efficiently. There is no great health pool, no super armor, no hyper armor or whatever. Just pure skill and mixing attacks. And to prevent some weird questions like 'So why there is no Nobushi in top tournaments?' - exactly because there is no safe moves so it's harder to play, especially against kits that has those.

Warden's only safe move is her top light.
You can call a warden spammy and unskilled all you want.
It takes a player with good read skills and excellent reflexes to be able to react to a player on a dime and properly execute the correct response.

Go ahead and try to SB cancel into a parry on a light. I wana see you try.

Draghmar
08-08-2017, 11:39 AM
I didn't say you can't counter it. It's just spammable as hell. The whole kit is made so SB is main focus. I have met a few (only) Wardens that actually were good because there were good and not because they caught me in SB spam with me missing top light from left guard because that's what most people tend to do - top light into SB or zone. Which is safe against Nobushi if I play at full range.
You can defend warden all you want but the fact is he has important spammable move that is even encouraged to spam with because of how his moveset works. The same goes for few other classes so do feel alone in that. And those calsses could have even 100 different attacks but when there is at least one that is much better then others then who will bother?

BTW If by 'reading' you mean guessing then it's not a skill. It's luck.

Knight_Raime
08-08-2017, 12:21 PM
I didn't say you can't counter it. It's just spammable as hell. The whole kit is made so SB is main focus. I have met a few (only) Wardens that actually were good because there were good and not because they caught me in SB spam with me missing top light from left guard because that's what most people tend to do - top light into SB or zone. Which is safe against Nobushi if I play at full range.
You can defend warden all you want but the fact is he has important spammable move that is even encouraged to spam with because of how his moveset works. The same goes for few other classes so do feel alone in that. And those calsses could have even 100 different attacks but when there is at least one that is much better then others then who will bother?

BTW If by 'reading' you mean guessing then it's not a skill. It's luck.

No. If you want spam go look at how he was able to cancel before they nerfed him. THAT is spamming. Him vortexing you isn't spam. and frankly making a flimsy argument if you're going on word play like that.

You completely looked over how I pointed out how his entire kit is basically used. Just because YOU happen to run into average wardens that do the same thing over and over doesn't mean the kit is a problem. That would be like me calling warlord "spammy and broken" just because some players out there choose to repeatedly throw headbutts out for that guaranteed light. You're over simplifying his kit to make a point that you frankly don't have any backing to.

Go watch a player like iskys. You'll see the entire kit be used. and either retract your argument. or continue on with this nonsense because you've got an issue with warden. And no. Reading in fighting terms means you knew what your opponent was going to do. and properly reacted. Devauling read to "luck" basically just shows how poorly you understand fighting games. and that you'll go to these sad lengths to try and drive home your own personal problem with no actual backing to them.

I've said it once and i'll say it again. People are free to dislike warden because SB is a big part of the kit. But the moment you try to basically smear the warden because of your own personal issue is when I take issue.

it's 6am here. i'm done. If you have an actual argument that doesn't involve trying to worm around wording i'll get back to you when I wake up. gnight.

Draghmar
08-08-2017, 12:36 PM
Go watch a player like iskys. You'll see the entire kit be used. and either retract your argument. or continue on with this nonsense because you've got an issue with warden. And no. Reading in fighting terms means you knew what your opponent was going to do. and properly reacted. Devauling read to "luck" basically just shows how poorly you understand fighting games. and that you'll go to these sad lengths to try and drive home your own personal problem with no actual backing to them.
I don't have issue with Warden but with the design that he uses which is based on spammable moves and is used among many classes as a focus point.
Yes it is better then was before but the idea of this design still remains.
Just because someone is using whole moveset of Orochi doesn't make him mostly top light+zone attacker.

Anyway if you're saying that your 'reading' is knowing then you basically made yourself an oracle here. You can not *know* what someone *will* do when there is more then one option to choose from. You can only guess based on some variables you choose to include. And guessing is based on luck alone. I know that those who play fighting games try to picture themselves as something more but the truth is it's still prediction and it means you are taking guess and guessing is based on simple luck.

ZUNniK.
08-08-2017, 12:37 PM
Having spammable move is not what I consider balanced moveset. Especially when whole tactic of Warden depends on this move. You can say that he has options. But those options would be nothing if you'd remove this one move.
You want balanced moveset? Nobushi. There is no single stupid aka safe move and you have to actually make some effort in order to attack efficiently. There is no great health pool, no super armor, no hyper armor or whatever. Just pure skill and mixing attacks. And to prevent some weird questions like 'So why there is no Nobushi in top tournaments?' - exactly because there is no safe moves so it's harder to play, especially against kits that has those.

Funny that you brought her up. In duels you are totally right. In teammodes she is close to broken. And thats why she is constantly in tournaments 2vs2. All the time. There are several threads and essays about her and her mechanics that make her practically god tier in teammodes. Sb.Alanarkin ( dont know if i wrote it right) openend a thread here where he explains in all details better than i can. For some odd reason her performance in those modes completely falls under the table and nobody cares. But the truth is ,she is far from balanced when there is more then one Opponent.

Draghmar
08-08-2017, 12:41 PM
For some odd reason her performance in those modes completely falls under the table and nobody cares. But the truth is ,she is far from balanced when there is more then one Opponent.
You're talking about Nobushi, right?

ZUNniK.
08-08-2017, 12:43 PM
You're talking about Nobushi, right?

Yup.

Edit.: Found the Thread - http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1689479-Here-s-why-Nobushi-is-busted-in-team-modes?highlight=sb.alernakin

He explains it way better than i could. He is also i belive one of the top players in europe on PC (if that makes any difference to somebody but perhaps it puts some weight to my own arguments/opinion).

Dude_of_Valor
08-08-2017, 02:19 PM
Actually I would say it is not broken now.

1) You only have a small window to cancel into a GB
2) Many classes can do something to avoid both the bash and GB
3) People can roll away to avoid it at all costs

Right now I would say he is probably about were he needs to be. Maybe a slightly faster guard switch to keep up with all the assassin feints everyone seems to be throwing (well on console for me at least).

Hormly
08-08-2017, 02:30 PM
As stated, I am a Warden main, and I have to agree that the shoulder bash cancel into guard break is broken. Canceling the shoulder bash is fine, but canceling the shoulder bash into a guard break is what is causing the problem. Unless the enemy has a dodge attack like the Orochi, Kensei, Peacekeeper or Berserker, he has to play a literal guessing game in which he has to either guess if the Warden is going to go through with his shoulder bash and therefore dodge it, or guess if he's going to cancel into a guard break and therefore stand still and wait for it to happen and then proceed to counter guard break. There's no room for the enemy to rely on his reaction skills. So, the only way to avoid the guessing game, is to roll away completely. But we all know that takes up practically half of your stamina and constantly puts the players back to neutral position and thus enter into an annoying game of keep away.

So, I think in order to avoid this, Ubisoft can do one of these three things:

1. Substantially reduce the amount of stamina it takes to roll away.
2. Make it so that you can still attempt to guard break if the enemy manages to guard break you in the middle of your dodge. (But that's probably even more game breaking)
3. Give the Warden some kind of tiny buff so that way he doesn't have to rely so damn much on his shoulder bash or top light attack for that matter, and while your at it, buff the Orochi and the Conqueror as well since they too are practically one trick ponies at this point.

Those are my suggestions and my opinion, though. What does anyone else think?

totally agree, the guessing game vortex is a poor mechanic to base a character around and has no place in a reactionary fighting game like FH

*zips up warden main flame suit*

Hormly
08-08-2017, 03:02 PM
I don't have issue with Warden but with the design that he uses which is based on spammable moves and is used among many classes as a focus point.
Yes it is better then was before but the idea of this design still remains.
Just because someone is using whole moveset of Orochi doesn't make him mostly top light+zone attacker.

Anyway if you're saying that your 'reading' is knowing then you basically made yourself an oracle here. You can not *know* what someone *will* do when there is more then one option to choose from. You can only guess based on some variables you choose to include. And guessing is based on luck alone. I know that those who play fighting games try to picture themselves as something more but the truth is it's still prediction and it means you are taking guess and guessing is based on simple luck.

I always laugh when people use the term "reading" in place of "guessing"

lol "that was a good read!" no, you called heads and it didnt land tails, youre not clairvoyant, statistically one of those outcomes had to happen, you picked one, and what followed aligned with your guess. skill? hardly. Can you tell me my fortune?

Knight_Raime
08-08-2017, 08:11 PM
I don't have issue with Warden but with the design that he uses which is based on spammable moves and is used among many classes as a focus point.
Yes it is better then was before but the idea of this design still remains.
Just because someone is using whole moveset of Orochi doesn't make him mostly top light+zone attacker.

Anyway if you're saying that your 'reading' is knowing then you basically made yourself an oracle here. You can not *know* what someone *will* do when there is more then one option to choose from. You can only guess based on some variables you choose to include. And guessing is based on luck alone. I know that those who play fighting games try to picture themselves as something more but the truth is it's still prediction and it means you are taking guess and guessing is based on simple luck.

I will apologize for my attitude this morning. But I will not take back any of my points.

"just because smoeone is using whole moveset doesn't make them mostly a spammer."

So here we get to your deffinition of spam. alright. Let me go ahead and add that to all the heros in the game:
~Orochi=top light and zone spammer
~zerker= light and heavy spam
~pk= light and zone spam
~warlord= head butt into light zone spammer.
~shugoki= headbutt and heavy spammer
~conq= bash and heavy spammer.
~warden= top light/zone sb spammer.
~raider= stunning tap zone spammer.
~kensei= dashing light and helm splitter spammer.
~lawbringer= shove and light spammer.
~valk= light and sweep spammer.
~bushi= dash attack and zone spammer.
~centurion= heavy and kick spammer.
~shinobi= light light kick spammer.

So every hero in this game is a spammer. You see how poor your logic is right? it DOES matter how much is being used. Spamming is literally only using the same move repeatedly. and at that point it's the PLAYER that's spamming. Not the kit. Warden may use SB a lot but he also uses damn near every other bit of his kit in a proper skilled fight. Orochi might be known for only top light and zone. but good orochi's use storm rush, deflect, right light into zone, and dash attacks to counter certain moves.

You can tell me you don't have a problem with warden. But I'm not buying it. Because it sounds like you're trying real hard to make a point that you do not have. When someone decides to call a character spammy rather than admit it was just the player being scummy that either speaks to having a personal issue or legitimate ignorance. If the rest of wardens kit was woefully bad and the only viable thing to do was to light>SB someone to death I could agree. But that's no where close to reality. The higher up in skill brackets you go the more of his kit you will see being used.

If you exist in a bracket where that is the only way a warden is played that's not wardens fault. and you as a player should be able to easily deal with it. and if you can't that's on you. I for an example always complain about valks because they constantly light light sweep me. That just doesn't fly in higher skilled fights. that gets parried or punished harshly. and valk actually has more to her than that. So again. You can dislike his kit revolving around SB. but that doesn't make him a spammer. period.

Also i'm not going to comment on that anymore. In fighting games there is a clear difference between a read and a guess. None of what warden does off of a SB cancel is soft feinted. So there are actual animations you can read and make a read. a guess would be something that doesn't have a visual tell. Considering for honor being a 3d fighter that's very unlikely to happen. You equating the 2 terms together is either legitimate ignorance. or you just being a jerk.

Alustar.
08-08-2017, 09:30 PM
So because you are all going to argue semantics (and that's my world)
There IS in fact a clear difference between a "read" and an outright guess.

While both are never %100 accurate (if for no other reason than quantum theory) an ordinary guess is just that. A wild Hail Mary in hopes that something beneficial comes.
When talking about "reading" an opponent, you create a hypothesis (also known as an educated guess) based on previous patterns and experiences that tell you what to expect next. (It's important to note here that as humans we are this planets most capable creatures in regards to pattern recognition.)

a read is just that. You have encountered a player, established a pattern to his combos and reacted accordingly. And it doesn't take a clairvoyant to put 2 and 2 together to see this is a two way street where the opposing party may adjust moves within a combo to keep a player from anticipating correctly.

To take the analogy, player A attacks 3 times top, then left, then right.
It is a safe assumption that if he comes I. A fourth time- top, then left, guess what probability tells us is -most likely- to occur? That's a read. You see the moves an opponent makes after others/in response to your own.

In Short, go ahead and keep guessing wildly, this is the reason you are sub-par at best.

Knight_Raime
08-08-2017, 10:29 PM
So because you are all going to argue semantics (and that's my world)
There IS in fact a clear difference between a "read" and an outright guess.

While both are never %100 accurate (if for no other reason than quantum theory) an ordinary guess is just that. A wild Hail Mary in hopes that something beneficial comes.
When talking about "reading" an opponent, you create a hypothesis (also known as an educated guess) based on previous patterns and experiences that tell you what to expect next. (It's important to note here that as humans we are this planets most capable creatures in regards to pattern recognition.)

a read is just that. You have encountered a player, established a pattern to his combos and reacted accordingly. And it doesn't take a clairvoyant to put 2 and 2 together to see this is a two way street where the opposing party may adjust moves within a combo to keep a player from anticipating correctly.

To take the analogy, player A attacks 3 times top, then left, then right.
It is a safe assumption that if he comes I. A fourth time- top, then left, guess what probability tells us is -most likely- to occur? That's a read. You see the moves an opponent makes after others/in response to your own.

In Short, go ahead and keep guessing wildly, this is the reason you are sub-par at best.

well put. Better than I said for sure. Hopefully said poster is actually open minded enough to see the difference you layed out.

brashtralas
08-08-2017, 10:48 PM
Also warden main, it needs to go. Increase damage or something to compensate, but it is a terrible mechanic.

I can beat it without fail on my lawbringer, but it shouldn't be a guaranteed move against others.

No more trash mechanics like this and shove on block(lawbringer).

UbiJurassic
08-09-2017, 01:22 AM
As stated, I am a Warden main, and I have to agree that the shoulder bash cancel into guard break is broken. Canceling the shoulder bash is fine, but canceling the shoulder bash into a guard break is what is causing the problem. Unless the enemy has a dodge attack like the Orochi, Kensei, Peacekeeper or Berserker, he has to play a literal guessing game in which he has to either guess if the Warden is going to go through with his shoulder bash and therefore dodge it, or guess if he's going to cancel into a guard break and therefore stand still and wait for it to happen and then proceed to counter guard break. There's no room for the enemy to rely on his reaction skills. So, the only way to avoid the guessing game, is to roll away completely. But we all know that takes up practically half of your stamina and constantly puts the players back to neutral position and thus enter into an annoying game of keep away.

So, I think in order to avoid this, Ubisoft can do one of these three things:

1. Substantially reduce the amount of stamina it takes to roll away.
2. Make it so that you can still attempt to guard break if the enemy manages to guard break you in the middle of your dodge. (But that's probably even more game breaking)
3. Give the Warden some kind of tiny buff so that way he doesn't have to rely so damn much on his shoulder bash or top light attack for that matter, and while your at it, buff the Orochi and the Conqueror as well since they too are practically one trick ponies at this point.

Those are my suggestions and my opinion, though. What does anyone else think?

Thanks for passing along the suggestions and opening it up to discussion, Mighty_Mackerel. Shoulder Bash is something that has been a consistent discussion point for the community and hearing suggestions and feedback on it helps the team better understand the underlying issues with it.

Auztinito
08-09-2017, 02:39 AM
I agree,I hate that Warden has to rely on Sb.What's worse people encourage it & think nothing of it.If they could make it less spammable all the better.If it remains I just go play something else.Absolver is looking great gameplay balance wise.

Kaijudub
08-09-2017, 11:17 AM
If you nerf his SB anymore he becomes trash tier. You'd also have to remove LB shove on block, Conq shield bash, Warlord head butt, Cent Kick and Punch, Valk bash and sweep blah blah.

Pretty much every character has a dodge move to counter it, warden can't dodge attack any of the above mentioned characters during their mixups, only dodge to sb. The characters that can't dodge have hyper armour to trade with the SB.

May I suggest playing AS a warden against lvl 3 bots, they will show you how to avoid vortex. A dodge is all it takes. Granted the time snap removal has made it all harder to react to but at this rate there will be nothing left of our beloved warden.

Draghmar
08-09-2017, 11:37 AM
If you nerf his SB anymore he becomes trash tier. You'd also have to remove LB shove on block, Conq shield bash, Warlord head butt, Cent Kick and Punch, Valk bash and sweep blah blah.

Pretty much every character has a dodge move to counter it, warden can't dodge attack any of the above mentioned characters during their mixups, only dodge to sb. The characters that can't dodge have hyper armour to trade with the SB.

May I suggest playing AS a warden against lvl 3 bots, they will show you how to avoid vortex. A dodge is all it takes. Granted the time snap removal has made it all harder to react to but at this rate there will be nothing left of our beloved warden.
But that is exactly the problem here. He is nothing without one abused move. So don't think the solution would be to actually make him viable by tweaking all of his moveset and not just rely on SB?
And please don't say thing like 'just dodge' because that's rubbish.

Kaijudub
08-09-2017, 12:41 PM
But that is exactly the problem here. He is nothing without one abused move. So don't think the solution would be to actually make him viable by tweaking all of his moveset and not just rely on SB?
And please don't say thing like 'just dodge' because that's rubbish.

All joking aside, dodging really is the best way and is how people stop me from using the sb on them. Rolling also works pretty well, if you roll from an sb normally the roll finishes as the sb does and you can still get a free gb..

MY issues is one thats already been pointed out. MOST if not all characters are a one trick pony, it's just the Warden gets the hardest rap. Don't worry about the other charged moves that can take you from 100 - 0 on revenge lets all moan about warden because taking the time to learn the timing is just too hard.

So do we take conqs SB away?? Thats his only viable move?

He has a top light which currently is useable due to time snap. Warden Side lights are predictable and his heavies are as telegraphed as anyone else. This leaves his crushing counterstrike that is skill dependant and requires a top attack ( decent players dont attack wardens from top stance). This is also currently an issue to be consistant with due to the removal of timesnap - console wise anyway imo. How do you buff that moveset without turning him into an assasin? You can't just create new moves it isn't that simple.

That_guy44
08-10-2017, 08:05 AM
Warden gets the most hate(deservingly) because he has a true 50/50. Other characters brought up in this thread may have annoying moves to deal with but they can be reacted to. In the same time you get to react to fast moves like conq shield bash in your face and centurion's kick, you're supposed to see and react to the warden charging his shoulderbash. Nah mate. Not happening. Especially on console. That's a 50/50. I don't believe anyone is making any "reads". Just lucky *** guesses. Taking in your opponent's patterns helps but at the end of the day you're still guessing. Who else on the cast has a 50/50? I don't care that his kit is trash. That's not a good excuse. If everyone had a 50/50, it'd be a different story.

Draghmar
08-10-2017, 08:49 AM
All joking aside, dodging really is the best way and is how people stop me from using the sb on them. Rolling also works pretty well, if you roll from an sb normally the roll finishes as the sb does and you can still get a free gb..

MY issues is one thats already been pointed out. MOST if not all characters are a one trick pony, it's just the Warden gets the hardest rap. Don't worry about the other charged moves that can take you from 100 - 0 on revenge lets all moan about warden because taking the time to learn the timing is just too hard.

So do we take conqs SB away?? Thats his only viable move?

He has a top light which currently is useable due to time snap. Warden Side lights are predictable and his heavies are as telegraphed as anyone else. This leaves his crushing counterstrike that is skill dependant and requires a top attack ( decent players dont attack wardens from top stance). This is also currently an issue to be consistant with due to the removal of timesnap - console wise anyway imo. How do you buff that moveset without turning him into an assasin? You can't just create new moves it isn't that simple.
Dodging? You will get GB. No sane Warden will SB when at too much distance. And at low distance they can cancel or just assume when you constantly trying to dodge + you won't get chance to light with slower classes. Roll is not the solution here because it just resets the fight.

And I meant exactly what you've described. There are too many heroes that relies on some one move, mostly being CC and/or UB, that is safe/spammable/whatever instead of whole moveset. Conq being best example of this because he literally has nothing else. He just has to use it. And that's wrong. Conq's SB should be only ONE of the option available to him. Like Nobushi's kick is.

Mighty_Mackerel
08-17-2017, 09:47 PM
I see several replies talking about removing the sb cancel into gb and how that is unwanted, when on the contrary I never mentioned taking it away, other than the suggestion of giving the Warden a slight buff, all my suggestions have been about essentially changing the world AROUND the Warden, so as to give all characters, including the Warden himself, (in mirror matches) the ability to rely on reactionary prowess to escape or defend against the sb cancel into gb mix-up instead of being forced to play the 50/50 game. Granted, my suggestions might not be the best, but I'm sure there are some better ones out there which is why I've posted this for open discussion. But again, I never mentioned taking away the sb cancel into gb mix-up, (because yes, I agree, the Warden has already been nerfed into the ground and taking away the mix-up would make him absolute garbage at this point) but instead equipping all characters the tools to better deal with the mix-up.

Mighty_Mackerel
08-17-2017, 09:53 PM
In fact, now that I think about it, changing all the characters to better deal with the 50/50 mix-up in my opinion would be the best option since the Warden isn't the only one who has the mix-up actually... Anyone who has an un-blockable attack that can cancel into a guardbreak, like the Kensei or the Raider and the Centurion, (I believe) essentially has the 50/50 mix-up. I only mentioned Warden until now because I main him. So there you go.

Alustar.
08-17-2017, 10:59 PM
I'm actually on board for a retooling of the original roster as a whole, once the final season winds down. It honestly needs to be done, especially with the assassin classes. I feel they are going to start feeling lack luster compared to this new wave.

Mighty_Mackerel
08-18-2017, 12:59 AM
I'm actually on board for a retooling of the original roster as a whole, once the final season winds down. It honestly needs to be done, especially with the assassin classes. I feel they are going to start feeling lack luster compared to this new wave.

I agree.