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View Full Version : Just make Parry an "Attack", and not an free lazy opener.



Butonfly
08-05-2017, 02:04 AM
Easy way to keep it, but also normalize it. You parry a heavy you deal 5 "chip" damage for your effort (at no stamina cost). Parry a light deal 10 "chip" damage (at no stamina cost). Have the damage dealt in the same parry animation, and combat/animations etc return to normal. No free BG's, no free lights, no free heavies, no free head bash or unblockable combo openers etc etc etc. Parry still a thing, it has a risk, it has a reward, but has no ******** attached to it.

Antonioj26
08-05-2017, 02:11 AM
Easy way to keep it, but also normalize it. You parry a heavy you deal 5 "chip" damage for your effort (at no stamina cost). Parry a light deal 10 "chip" damage (at no stamina cost). Have the damage dealt in the same parry animation, and combat/animations etc return to normal. No free BG's, no free lights, no free heavies, no free head bash or unblockable combo openers etc etc etc. Parry still a thing, it has a risk, it has a reward, but has no ******** attached to it.

Useless to parry than, lights seem appropriate enough with the exception of Orochi. Deflects may need looking into after this but we will see, all of the assassins benefit greatly from the change since it will be so much More worth it to deflect than parry. Shinobi may be bumped up quite high after this since his deflect does incredible damage but again too early to tell.

Butonfly
08-05-2017, 02:16 AM
Useless to parry than, lights seem appropriate enough with the exception of Orochi. Deflects may need looking into after this but we will see, all of the assassins benefit greatly from the change since it will be so much More worth it to deflect than parry. Shinobi may be bumped up quite high after this since his deflect does incredible damage but again too early to tell.

The window for deflect is so small, the risk to do so has never outweighed the reward.

Dodging, in general, has always come with risks that've put it appropriately at a disadvantage. Those risks will remain, as will the ones associated with deflecting. So yes, great, dodge, deflect, they're still things, but they're not going to be anything more than they are now. You obviously don't main an assassin, or play outside of the turtle meta.

Antonioj26
08-05-2017, 02:47 AM
The window for deflect is so small, the risk to do so has never outweighed the reward.

Dodging, in general, has always come with risks that've put it appropriately at a disadvantage. Those risks will remain, as will the ones associated with deflecting. So yes, great, dodge, deflect, they're still things, but they're not going to be anything more than they are now. You obviously don't main an assassin, or play outside of the turtle meta.

I haven't noticed a difference in the window and even if it was saying a 50 damage deflect isn't worth a 15 damage light isn't worth it is ludicrous. Even if you miss 3 times you come up.

UbiNoty
08-05-2017, 03:05 AM
I can make the suggestion to the team.
I think we want to move parry to a more high-risk, appropriate reward place as opposed to it's current low-risk high-reward. And the high-risk PT parry changes would potentially make parry a poor choice if we just added chip damage to it, so we'd also have to make the parry window bigger once again...which could perhaps be an answer to the turtle meta-but I also feel like in that situation parry runs the risk of being obsolete.

It's something to think about though, so thank you for the idea.

Butonfly
08-05-2017, 06:36 AM
I haven't noticed a difference in the window and even if it was saying a 50 damage deflect isn't worth a 15 damage light isn't worth it is ludicrous. Even if you miss 3 times you come up.

To give an illustration-

Parry is like catching a ball in a giant novelty sized baseball mit.

By comparison, Deflect is like catching a fly with chopsticks.

Sneaky-Patches
08-05-2017, 07:38 AM
To give an illustration-

Parry is like catching a ball in a giant novelty sized baseball mit.

By comparison, Deflect is like catching a fly with chopsticks.

That's right, much harder to do.

Also people are going on about shinobis deflect being the "best", and on paper it might be just a fraction statistically better than some but...

-currently it's broken because the following "guaranteed" kick/ light often just whiffs and falls completely short.

-pulling off two in a row doesn't double the damage, so it's just like getting robbed out of all your damage for no reason, unlike orochi, or zerker would be.

- higher risk for this class because your health is just to damn low to often risk it for the biscuit.

-currently pulling off a second deflect shortly after the first doesn't even "refresh" the bleed effect, it actually counts as zero until the first bleed has entirely worn off.

-shinobis stam won't regenerate for like 5 second after pulling off a deflect, so dumb.

-it's bleed damage, which is worse than just raw damage especially in a group fight where you may have technically killed one of the two attackers with bleed, but they can still just spam attacks at you before they die, or often get to a point or hit some minions for health.

-bleed damage is reduced severely by people that stack the debuff stat, and I believe some heroes have feats that make them immune (not sure if that's still the case)

Orochi can destroy with his heavy deflects, zerker can get a free gb (and wall throw people for a top heavy and demolish their health) a free gb in this new defensive change will be like gold dust. Pks is ok and maybe a bit worse than shinobis ( with the exception of all shinobis deflect bugs) but it doesn't matter as Pk is still objectively the best assasin followed by zerker.

Shinobi needs his fixed and it needs a buff, it's just not worth it atm.

Antonioj26
08-05-2017, 04:31 PM
To give an illustration-

Parry is like catching a ball in a giant novelty sized baseball mit.

By comparison, Deflect is like catching a fly with chopsticks.

Give me hard numbers, not analogies that don't actually give me any sort of objectivity.

Antonioj26
08-05-2017, 05:01 PM
That's right, much harder to do.

Also people are going on about shinobis deflect being the "best", and on paper it might be just a fraction statistically better than some but...

-currently it's broken because the following "guaranteed" kick/ light often just whiffs and falls completely short.

-pulling off two in a row doesn't double the damage, so it's just like getting robbed out of all your damage for no reason, unlike orochi, or zerker would be.

- higher risk for this class because your health is just to damn low to often risk it for the biscuit.

-currently pulling off a second deflect shortly after the first doesn't even "refresh" the bleed effect, it actually counts as zero until the first bleed has entirely worn off.

-shinobis stam won't regenerate for like 5 second after pulling off a deflect, so dumb.

-it's bleed damage, which is worse than just raw damage especially in a group fight where you may have technically killed one of the two attackers with bleed, but they can still just spam attacks at you before they die, or often get to a point or hit some minions for health.

-bleed damage is reduced severely by people that stack the debuff stat, and I believe some heroes have feats that make them immune (not sure if that's still the case)

Orochi can destroy with his heavy deflects, zerker can get a free gb (and wall throw people for a top heavy and demolish their health) a free gb in this new defensive change will be like gold dust. Pks is ok and maybe a bit worse than shinobis ( with the exception of all shinobis deflect bugs) but it doesn't matter as Pk is still objectively the best assasin followed by zerker.

Shinobi needs his fixed and it needs a buff, it's just not worth it atm.

-only on certain attack. The only one that comes to mind is raiders top heavy

-Yeah this shouldnt happen but how often is this actually happening to you? The bleed lasts 5-6 seconds with 2 of those being the kick and heavy follow up. By the time you can deflect again your enemies bleed should be gone unless this guy is attacking wildly. I agree it should be fixed but its a rare occurence that you would be pulling them off especially with the way you are downplaying its effectiveness.

- no 3 lights aside from orochis can kill a shinobi but 3 deflects can kill just about everyone. Thats the trade off for him have low health.

- You already said this

-Its like 1 second not 5 for regeneration

-But its 50 damage so thats the trade for it being bleed, it takes longer but it does more damage overall. Bleed would be garbage or broken if it was any other way

- Last I checked debuff resistance isnt affected by bleed. It wasn't in season 1 so unless thats changed then its not a problem. Who is even stacking debuff resistance instead of exhaustion and defense? I cant think of a more useless stat.

heavy Orochi deflects are terrible, you can just roll away. Zerks is very good but still not as good as shinobis since his needs a wall to do more damage than shins.

AnEnticingSquid
08-05-2017, 05:05 PM
What if vanguards parry, assassins deflect, heavies superior block, and hybrids do a mix of 2 of Them? That way parrys would be a class specific thing and everybody is happy? Well not everybody... but I would...

Snoop_Godly
08-05-2017, 05:20 PM
Deflect is a lot harder. Example.... You miss time let's say a zerkers light. Your stopped there and can't dodge while he follows up his heavy. Same with every one with more than a one hit combo. If you miss time the first your eating the second. Parry? You miss time the first? Blocked. Now try the second. Parried. Parry times are better than deflects. That yellow light is bull****. You try using that against a raider. It don't work or law bringer. Or most for that matter. You will dodge under it while they follow up with another attack. If it's a heavy. You might be able to block. Higher frames to block If it's a light. Parry is low risk. Simple. Low risk for high reward. Shins and pks? Well. Debuf resistance depends on the damage. (warden's immune) orochis? Wind gust is guaranteed. Light damage. Hurricane blast is not. Only time that is guaranteed is if some one is stuck in animation trying to follow up another attack (so it's your own fault if get hit by it. Stop mashing buttons) If you thrown out one attack and got deflected? Dodge. So. A heavy damage attack you can get out of? Parried a heavy or light? Heavy or gb to heavy. Seems fair. Zerkers gb. Same risk applies about eating an attack. And in ganking situations it's completely useless as you deflect and get a gb. Your still looked onto the guy you was still looking at even though you deflected the other. Won't have time to switch targets so get pushed off. Unlike orochi. You don't switch targets on the deflected enemy. Here's a quick thought. Every character in the game has a some what of a opener. As assassins don't apart from shin. Every other does. Can assassins turtle? Not really. That's why other chars have openers. Safe ones. Unblockable ones so assassins can't deflect. (have to dodge shove. Push. Charge. Etc etc) Makes sense. Hence why assassins can't hold their guard stance. It needs to be timed. Assassins take more skill to use. That's using all of their moves. Not just spam dodge. Top lights. Zone. And maybe a mix up of gb. Maybe I am wrong about all this. But if I am. Use an assassin with out parrying. Spamming lights and using zone. Rely on heavies. deflects and gbs. (gb heavy don't count by the way) and tell me how difficult it is. Parrying is too rewarding for minimal risk. Mess it up? Block. Get it right. Free gb. Heavy. Deflect. Mess it up. Either clear miss or eat an attack. It's risk with no way to defend your self afterwards. Simple

Snoop_Godly
08-05-2017, 05:26 PM
A parry is a first learnt defensive move. Nothing is gained from it. A deflect is an offensive move. I. Parry stood still. Deflect movement. So deflect should be looked into. Sure. Then remove unblockable from the game then. Makes sense. Because. You know. Their offensive moves. Block light. Parry heavy (drains their stamina not yours) parry unblockables (same applies) if you want parry into anything more than a what it really is. A defensive move with is standard study in all sword play. Then your a turtle. It's simple.

BudgetParrot118
08-05-2017, 06:18 PM
I can make the suggestion to the team.
I think we want to move parry to a more high-risk, appropriate reward place as opposed to it's current low-risk high-reward. And the high-risk PT parry changes would potentially make parry a poor choice if we just added chip damage to it, so we'd also have to make the parry window bigger once again...which could perhaps be an answer to the turtle meta-but I also feel like in that situation parry runs the risk of being obsolete.

It's something to think about though, so thank you for the idea.

This comment is directed at the poster the original in for the thread you asked why not make Perry and attack well here's the thing it's called a light attack get your time and write and wait for the animation if you want to play that way.

As far as Perry is concerned. I think they are crucial and they do I add to the longevity of a good battle which ultimately makes it fun.

And honestly I think Perry's shouldn't guarantee anything. It all should be based on your stamina bar like in real life if your towards the end of your fight and you're on the losing end and they Perry you then yeah you get a free light attack but if you parry at the opening of a fight and they respond with let's just say by hitting a button at the correct time then you're able to dodge out of it the problem would solve itself if they literally just use stamina bar like in real life with your own stamina and abilities as a resource for gauging the realism of a combat.

BudgetParrot118
08-05-2017, 06:23 PM
I can make the suggestion to the team.
I think we want to move parry to a more high-risk, appropriate reward place as opposed to it's current low-risk high-reward. And the high-risk PT parry changes would potentially make parry a poor choice if we just added chip damage to it, so we'd also have to make the parry window bigger once again...which could perhaps be an answer to the turtle meta-but I also feel like in that situation parry runs the risk of being obsolete.

It's something to think about though, so thank you for the idea.


Easy way to keep it, but also normalize it. You parry a heavy you deal 5 "chip" damage for your effort (at no stamina cost). Parry a light deal 10 "chip" damage (at no stamina cost). Have the damage dealt in the same parry animation, and combat/animations etc return to normal. No free BG's, no free lights, no free heavies, no free head bash or unblockable combo openers etc etc etc. Parry still a thing, it has a risk, it has a reward, but has no ******** attached to it.

Head bashing punching grabbing and all those things are abused relentlessly in the game but that is a whole nother topic. As I play warlord I try to avoid using that move even though I'm battling AI and there's nobody on the other end. It cheapens my experience in ruins the realism.

But players that are just concerned about winning and are Fairweather gamers. They don't care they win they boost their stats to get their ego pumped up and they move on to the next game.

BudgetParrot118
08-05-2017, 06:49 PM
I can make the suggestion to the team.
I think we want to move parry to a more high-risk, appropriate reward place as opposed to it's current low-risk high-reward. And the high-risk PT parry changes would potentially make parry a poor choice if we just added chip damage to it, so we'd also have to make the parry window bigger once again...which could perhaps be an answer to the turtle meta-but I also feel like in that situation parry runs the risk of being obsolete.

It's something to think about though, so thank you for the idea.

Just to clarify I didn't go into all the animation details and real options that I would consider for the game as a whole that be time-consuming so if you be naughty or some Ubisoft developer or somebody is interested in hearing my opinion in full detail and as far as the whole makeup of the game as a whole I would be glad to get it but that would be time-consuming that would be crunching numbers that would be doing Justice to every character to the fullest extent which I know seems like an impossibility but math is amazing and so are mathematical formulas.

And ultimately this is theoretical math you get a negative so many damaged if in theory you actually make it a practice and then to make a heavy or a strike.

This is what I find Crazy to deal with too much damage and just an endless game of nothing but swinging at each other which isn't really fun they had stamina to manage that

Then someone got the great idea to add stamina attacks with nothing managing those attacks except stamina

To do something like this you've got to have very precise math you've got to have mathematical ratios and a appropriate scaling process.

Not trying to critique, but there should be an ultimate formula that all characters are pulled from when it comes to stamina management and attacks the saving time and money and allowing other employees to actually provide other services than balancing.

Yes there may be some minor and when I say minor minut balancing if said Theory or formula is made a fact but it won't be as bad as it is now.

And instead of actually having like I said people that are balancing these people actually find new ways to incorporate new facets to the theory to make ultimate movesets more interesting all the while useful while not being abusive.