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frag_bravo
01-22-2004, 09:00 PM
It was hated by the americans, and rejected by the britts.It was loved and admired by the russians.Some Russian pilots even became ace's.What do you think Cobra or Iron Dog?

frag_bravo
01-22-2004, 09:00 PM
It was hated by the americans, and rejected by the britts.It was loved and admired by the russians.Some Russian pilots even became ace's.What do you think Cobra or Iron Dog?

LazyNerd_
01-22-2004, 09:24 PM
Favorite plane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I love the thing! Enough .50s to take down fighters, enough cannon to take down bombers.. and it has superb turning with flaps down and good enough speed to keep up in dogfights.

_____________________________
Flying as :FI:Lazo of the Fighting Irish Squad.

frag_bravo
01-22-2004, 09:26 PM
Keep it comin I love that bird.I love my wife and my 5yr and cats two.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pourshot
01-22-2004, 09:33 PM
The VVS did not use the p39 in the same way or cofig as the rest.Some had guns removed and the engines were worked alot harder.So I think if used like the VVS then it's a good fighter but if left as used by the brit's and Yank's then it may be a dog.

But at the end of the day the fact it was used in a poor way tacticly in the pacific left it with a black eye it would never get over.

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Ride It Like Ya Stole It

horseback
01-22-2004, 11:57 PM
P-39s were unpopular with the RAF 'cause they weren't as fast as the original prototype, which had a turbocharger similar to the ones in the P-38. It had gotten somewhere around 400mph at 20,000 ft, but the AAF stripped a lot of the good stuff. In the end, the basic Allison V-1710 wasn't too hot above 15,000 ft, and the Channel Front was an ever higher altitude combat arena. The Brits found it unsuitable, and shipped a bunch of them to the Soviets when the Germans invaded them.

The rest were returned to the US, where they were redesignated P-400s, due to the slight differences from the P-39D (the biggest being the 20mm Hispano in place of the 37mm Olds cannon).

When the US was dragged into the war, high attrition amongst the P-40 groups already in the Pacific led to temporary shortages of the Warhawk, and since there were numbers of P-39/P-400s available, and they at least used the same engine, these were used to reequip some groups, and other P-39 groups arrived in theater in New Guinea and later the Solomons.

The groups re-equipping with the 'Cobras were already inclined to be unhappy with them; receiving them without manuals or documentation & having to put them together by guess and by golly did nothing to put them into a better frame of mind. To add to their woes, the bulk of their fighting was done initially over the Owen Stanley mountains of New Guinea, usually above the 'Cobras' best altitude, against some of the IJN's best.

A couple of the 'greats' got their scoring started in the 'Cobra, Tom Lynch and George Welch getting multiple kills in the type, but by and large, the Army Air Force wasn't going to fall in love with the Cobra when the Lightning was available to a favored few.

However, tests against the Zero recovered in the Aleutians showed that the 'Cobra was better than the Zero in climb and accelleration up to 12,000 ft, and better in a dive at all altitudes.

The Soviets, on the other hand, were thrilled to get an aircraft that could perform with any other type available below 4-5000m, because that was where they forced the fight. They did lighten it and made a major effort to prepare pilots entering service in the type for its strengths and weaknesses, unlike the US and British Air Forces.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

WUAF_Badsight
01-23-2004, 12:48 AM
the BELL aircraft company also upgraded the P-39s with mods during it production

i dont knowwhat the mods were but have read that the nasty handeling habits were toned down a lot from when they started making them

then they developed the P-63 & 99% of the entire P-63 production went to Russia

does anyone know wether the BELL A/C company consulted with the Russian airforce or its pilots over the P-39?

apparently , from annecdotal US pilot reports , the P-39 was a tighter turner than the other heavy weight US fighters

but it still has a bad rep

jurinko
01-23-2004, 01:11 AM
when i am frustrated flying Fw, I take Cobra and take few quick kills which restores my self-confidence. Then, jump into Fw pit and back to work .. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Art-J
01-23-2004, 04:45 AM
WUAF_Badsight wrote: "does anyone know wether the BELL A/C company consulted with the Russian airforce or its pilots over the P-39?"

I remember reading somewhere that they actually did. They even arranged series of test flights with civil American and military Russian pilots turnig their Cobras into "controlled" spins in order to figure out how to solve those nasty stall/spin characteristics. As far as I recall, during one of these flights the Russian pilot was forced to bail out due to the unrecoverable flat spin. After that he was "awarded" by actual parachutes manufacturer with some kind of "distinction" because he was the first foreign pilot to use their product http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The offspring of these tests were changes in ammo and fuel tanks arrangement in the Cobra's airframe (result - more stable COG location during flight).
I don't remember more details though...

Regards
Art-J

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SUPERAEREO
01-23-2004, 05:54 AM
I have recently read Chuck Yeager's autobiography, and he LOVED the P-39.

S!

jensenpark
01-23-2004, 09:09 AM
I know the Soviets made some modifications to improve the beast, but did any of them actually have a negative affect as well?

I mean, removing armour made it faster/lighter, but was the postive outweighed by the less armour - more pilot deaths, etc due to marginal damage?

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"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

BpGemini
01-23-2004, 09:16 AM
Take a wild guess at what my opinion would be. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2004, 11:01 AM
A piece of sh**, but one put to good use by the Russians, who had the mindset to put it to good use. Good for them.

WUAF_Badsight
01-23-2004, 11:50 AM
yes it had nasty habits when first produced Stigler

they got toned down tho over its production life-time

i guess it isnt "German" enough for you

VW-IceFire
01-23-2004, 11:58 AM
Airacobra in frontline British and American service was the early versions with many problems (more than most) and it was a strange airplane. Biggest problems were the handeling and high altitude performance.

On the Russian front they largely recieved and liked the later modifications (field and factory) which fixed some of the stability issues and they used it for low altitude operations where it was a good performer and a dangerous opponent.

Both positions in the American/British as well as Russian opininon are correct.

Iron-dog and Airacobra at varrying times in its life.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2004, 11:59 AM
Well, while I freely admit that I like the Axis birds...

I don't hold being American against a plane. (I may seem to, but that's mostly aimed at shortsighted people who fly planes only *because* they're American, forgetting that you have to have other countries' planes to fly them *against* to make things interesting).

I actually like some Ami planes, and some Brit planes too. But the 'Cobra was a piece of scrap metal. I'm sorry, it *sucked*.

ZG77_Nagual
01-23-2004, 12:00 PM
nice post horseback - didn't know about the vs. zero test.

39 did get it's rap in the pacific - start of the war us ac doctrine was antiquated - japanese pilots were the best in the world in a plane designed for that doctrine. Also having to slap the planes together didn't help. - and they were not-yet debugged.

Yes - vvs and bell did work together. and yes vvs pilots went through engines very fast.

P39 is my fav in the simm and has been since IL2 - though I fly the 190 alot as well.
Watch out when the P63 comes though - all accounts that baby is a real monster - best turn of all usa but the gm wildcat - best roll, great climb - likely much better high speed handling than the 39.

faustnik
01-23-2004, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:


apparently , from annecdotal US pilot reports , the P-39 was a tighter turner than the other heavy weight US fighters

but it still has a bad rep<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Americans liked planes that flew faster and higher than the other guy. Who needs to turn when you can bounce your target from high altitude at 450 mph? Americans want MORE POWER, not better handling.

The P-39 got a bad rep because it sucked at high altitude against the Zero. Also, by the time the P-39s reached Japanese bombers at 20,000 feet the Cobras were out of gas.

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WUAF_Badsight
01-23-2004, 12:14 PM
luckily BELL made the P-63 KingCobra

it was awesome

was WAY better than the P-39 at all flight performance

the P-39 had its nasty handeling especially at high alt

not used in the pacific mainly because of range

it far from sucked , its nasty traits were toned down & many fixes were introduced by BELL

BpGemini
01-23-2004, 12:43 PM
The P-63 will be my new ride. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/bp_geminiCombined.gif
IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2004, 02:43 PM
Faustnik wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The P-39 got a bad rep because it sucked at high altitude against the Zero. Also, by the time the P-39s reached Japanese bombers at 20,000 feet the Cobras were out of gas.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-39 sucked at high level against the Zero mainly because it couldn't even GET to that alt with any kind of tactical speed left. In the rare event that it could reach a position to dive on a formation of bombers or fighters, it, like a P-40, *could* be effective, depending on the situation.

However, the Iron Dog sucked just as much at LOW level against the Zero, as high. The only difference was that down in the weeds, it was markedly faster and could escape. The -39 and P-40 have pretty good turns, but the Zero always had an *excellent* turn that would prove fatal to any 'Dog or Hawk pilot who wanted to trade aerobatic chops. So, the P-39 and P-40 had no lowlevel dogfighting advantage to speak of, save perhaps roll rate at speed, and flat out, ESCAPE. And ruggedness, but that's not a "dogfighting" issue.

I always loved that joke,
Q: "What's a P-400 (the export P-39 with a 20mm cannon)?"
A: "A P-39 with two Zeros after it"

WUAF_Badsight
01-23-2004, 03:48 PM
well Stigler your wrong

the P-39 had bad stall up high yes , it snap stalled

but down low the trait was much less pronunced

or at least thats what ive read about it

& BTW ... what plane COULD stick it to the Zero in the pacific lol

none apart from the Hayabusa

XyZspineZyX
01-23-2004, 04:06 PM
It could snap out at low alt, too.

I distinctly remember reading in Andrews Park's book "Angels Twenty" how this one, hard-to-get-along-with pilot, who would berate wingmen for not staying close by, liked to pull hard G turns just after takeoff, tempting the "snap" tendencies of the P-39; the other pilots thought he was CRAZY for doing it. Park also describes how the -39 was always a handful, no matter what you were doing with it. He never felt like he was in a plane that could compete with a Zero (and he wasn't alone); later on, the guys in his squad couldn't wait to transition to P-38s or anything but a P-39. It was a piece of crap.

As for the Zero, the Hellcat and Corsair both racked up impressive figures against it. It's not the turn, it's the engine power, teamwork tactics and high speed handling (not to mention the fact that the captured Akutan Zero revealed the Zero's vulnerability) that allows a pilot in a less maneuverable plane to win against a A6M.

P-47s did well vs. the Zeke too.

WUAF_Badsight
01-23-2004, 04:11 PM
none of those planes had anywhere near the maneurverability of the Zero . period

& i didnt say the P-39 wouldnt stall down low

its nasty traits were more evident up at high alt