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View Full Version : On the subject of parries (and other little things)



Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 04:07 AM
Hey all! it's me! It's been awhile since i've made a thread here. Some of you might have noticed I took a leave a few months back. I've been lurking around in the forums again recently and I wanted to have a small discussion about parrying since it along with the changes on PTR 2 are a hot topic right now. I will note that i'm a console player. I haven't played the PTR. However i'm going to leave my feedback on it for those who are interested at the bottom. I didn't feel right making my own thread on it especially over in the ptr feedback section since I didn't play it. But if the mods want to move this there or have me post my feedback on it over there i'd be more than happy to.

Anyway onto the subject. Parrying. It's nice that we as a community are able to agree that parrying is not in a good spot at the moment. However I don't really think people understand why. Or more so when trying to make a suggestion that sounds nice on paper they don't seem to see how that actually impacts things. SO lets quickly go over parries. Currently parries interupt combat flow. They are the main focus of the combat situation. Not combos. Not mix ups really. Just trying to parry and getting your opponent to fall for it. Parries protect you while in out of stamina. Parries are THE way to get past the reactionary defense of a good player. It really skews not only combat but hero kits as well.

To put it simply parries are too important. Give too much. and slow down/stop combat flow. Instead of the game being a lovely back and forth it's more of a staring contest. So the devs made a few changes. Now that we understand what a parry does to the current game lets look at what they did. The devs removed both GB and max punishes (for the most part) off of a light parry. Roughly speaking this means there is no longer a frame advantage when parrying a light versus parrying a heavy. This is good. VERY good. it does a lot of things. Which i'll get into in a second. But first i want to tackle peoples suggestions and why they don't work.

Suggestion 1) make heavy parries give a light. and light parries give a heavy.
This sounds nice on paper. But is horrible in practice. It sounds ideal because you get what you "deserve" for the effort. You accomplish something harder. So you get a better payout. This is bad in practice for several reasons. For one it literally DOESN'T change the meta game at top level. People already wait around for the right move to parry to get the best damage. Now though instead of trying to fake a person into a heavy bait for a parry you'd fake the person into trying a light for some quick easy damage. Different move. same problem. It doesn't remove the importance of the parry either. we're trying to get people AWAY from parrying everything. This encourages it.

Suggestion 2) Parrying a light gives you GB. parrying a heavy gives a light/nothing.
This has the same problem as above. still focuses on parry. But parrying heavies are worse. On top of GB's on certain heros give a bigger advantage. such as warlord can parry GB you and run you off a ledge. GB's also technically give the player position advantage. You can control where they go to get optimal damage. which in some cases is worse than a light parry punish.

Suggestion 3) Parrying a light gives frame advantage.
I mean that sounds fancy. and it's not giving direct free damage. But the reason lights exist is because of frame advantage. You get more frames to do more off of a light parry. so it's not doing anything different in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately all 3 suggestions don't change the problem. Which is again focusing around a parry. So what exactly did the devs do and why does it work the best? It's good because it does so much while doing so little. First. Since both parries give the same...opportunity. More people can use parrying and have a chance at breaking an aggression and trying to get in. People feel like they can use more attacks now because it doesn't matter what attack they use. if they make a bad call they will be punished just the same. and it won't be nearly as harsh as a single slip up.

It makes the combat actually flow. meaning instead of me parrying a light and nailing 60 damage so the opponent turtles up and files his taxes trying to decide to approach neither him or I stop. he got slapped on the wrist and will try again. I have a miriad of tools at my disposal to attempt to get more damage in. We're constantly flipping between aggressor and defender. Parrying turns from being the only way in to a way to change combat direction. People are so fixated on trying to give something to the person who can parry both lights and heavies.

When that's ALREADY something. Being able to parry a light and a heavy means the opponent has to play a lot smarter against you. Meaning tactics have to switch up. I could choose to parry as many of both attacks. or only one of them. or certain lights and certain heavies. You don't know what i'm going to parry. and you've got no idea what i'll do when i'll do. That skill is an advantage in itself. It doesn't need extra. Lastly it creates diversity amongst characters. Orochi being a counter attacker will feel like he is now since he's countering with a parry and gets good top light damage. Which might make people flock to him. however due to his kit he's predictable. and doesn't have much to pressure someone. he'll be balanced because of that. Where as someone like berzerker now will be a lot stronger because these changes allow him to pressure both in and out of stamina pretty damn hard. I could potentially see letting light parries do "slightly" more stamina damage. but not majorly so.

Point is the devs are trying to get away from parrying. trying to get away from stand stills. Trying to give more aggression. make more of the kits be useful. etc. and the only way to do that is to change parries role from being THE thing to merely a way to change your position in the fight. No other suggestion i've seen does this. Therefore I think the way the devs chose to go is the only way to go.

PTR 2 feedback:
Now that I handled parrying lets briefly discuss how I felt about the other changes.
Overall I think they hit this first test out of the park. OOS is punishing as it should be. Parries are fixed. Heavies feel in a better spot now due to that and the GB change. chip is nice. etc.

I only have one major concern. that being people who turtle when at 25 hp. This is a problem because no light in the game save orochi's double light is enough to chunk 25 health. What this means is a defensive player will turtle and chip damage won't matter because it can't kill them. they can then attempt a risk free move to try and bring the aggressor down to them because if they mess up they won't die. Some people recommend remove regen HP. Some recommend letting chip kill. I don't think either are good solutions. Both will just give advantage to quicker players. and reinforce the heros that are good at opening. Which we don't want.

My suggestion (which I didn't come up with mind you) is to make it so the HP regens to whatever the lowest light damage punish is in the game. and then make it so if a time out occurs that the lowest HP hero loses. The former prevents the turtle from making a move without a consequence. The latter currently exists in the tournament mode. Both of these combined take away the incentive/desire to turtle. as it's not a guarentee win anymore. People will still turtle when they get low HP just because that's human nature. Just as if people can parry they will attempt to do so. We can't remove either behavior. and trying to balance in that way would create more problems than solve. the proposed solution addresses the reward portion of it. People would still be able to turtle and if good enough make a come back. But they would be at risk the entire time.

Beyond that though chip damage could maybe be bumped up slightly. I do think feinting should get messed with either in the next PTR or a future one. I think it needs to be cheaper and more available in the form of giving every hero a soft feint. (also giving any hero who doesn't have a light into heavy combo one of those) Both would add more diversity to situations and bump kits up potential wise. which we need. I'll avoid making hero suggestions until we've decided and kept a new base foundation for the game. as regardless of what the devs choose to do the heros will have to change along with it.

Thanks for reading.

Justicator
08-02-2017, 05:20 AM
I completely agree with you on all points. How people still defend the GB after any parry and the old meta staring contests is beyond me. The 2nd PTR improved so many things, simply playing the game was far more enjoyable... I miss the 2nd PTR :(

My.Insanity
08-02-2017, 08:00 AM
I agree that parry should not give a GB or a Heavy.. this is the problem of the current meta. But in my eyes all Heros need to be looked into their movesets.. i can already hear the people scream "Warlord was already OP and now he is the only Character with a free Heavy after parry... OP GOD TIER mimimi" the fact that some Heros have a much more rewarding parry followup then others will create a new Meta... so

1 Option: remove all the parry followups which would also mean no 2 lights for Orochi / Warden (this is the worst optioin)

or

2 Option: give all the Heros a way to make something out of a parry (like you said a "light/heavy combo would be a good way to start a combo after a parry but many Heros dont have one)

and for chip dmg.. chip dmg need to kill.. this is no question for me because of a simple reason: If chip dmg can kill your enemy.. you will go in more aggresiv while your enemy is in the last 25 health.. so your enemy is going to turtle (he would turtle even if chip dmg dont kill) so you need more mindgames to break him open.. but your enemy also need a lot more effort to stay alive.. he need to parry or doge your attacks he cant just wait for you to make a big mistake

matt89connor
08-02-2017, 08:15 AM
to resolve turtle meta problem is simple:
- parry of a light garantee light and remove stamina 30% min max 40% depend of the speed of the light who suffer parry.
- parry a heavy garantee GB, but the GB NOT GARANTEE HEAVY, this is very important, many heroes like nobushi can have special attack after projection, or other have counter attacks after parry so, no need that meccanic.

Draghmar
08-02-2017, 08:17 AM
Or 3rd option: give all heroes only light (just light, no special ones like Orochi's) by parrying light and chance to light after heavy (you can dodge if you're good enough).

Edit:

- parry a heavy garantee GB, but the GB NOT GARANTEE HEAVY, this is very important, many heroes like nobushi can have special attack after projection, or other have counter attacks after parry so, no need that meccanic.
This would give clear advantage to the classes that can use wall splat to make some nasty things or Warlord (again).

matt89connor
08-02-2017, 08:20 AM
Or 3rd option: give all heroes only light (just light, no special ones like Orochi's) by parrying light and chance to light after heavy (you can dodge if you're good enough).

.

true point

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 10:13 AM
I completely agree with you on all points. How people still defend the GB after any parry and the old meta staring contests is beyond me. The 2nd PTR improved so many things, simply playing the game was far more enjoyable... I miss the 2nd PTR :(

I think it might be because wether some people realize it or not they are looking at an individual change and how it would fit into the live game.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 10:19 AM
I agree that parry should not give a GB or a Heavy.. this is the problem of the current meta. But in my eyes all Heros need to be looked into their movesets.. i can already hear the people scream "Warlord was already OP and now he is the only Character with a free Heavy after parry... OP GOD TIER mimimi" the fact that some Heros have a much more rewarding parry followup then others will create a new Meta... so

1 Option: remove all the parry followups which would also mean no 2 lights for Orochi / Warden (this is the worst optioin)

or

2 Option: give all the Heros a way to make something out of a parry (like you said a "light/heavy combo would be a good way to start a combo after a parry but many Heros dont have one)

and for chip dmg.. chip dmg need to kill.. this is no question for me because of a simple reason: If chip dmg can kill your enemy.. you will go in more aggresiv while your enemy is in the last 25 health.. so your enemy is going to turtle (he would turtle even if chip dmg dont kill) so you need more mindgames to break him open.. but your enemy also need a lot more effort to stay alive.. he need to parry or doge your attacks he cant just wait for you to make a big mistake

I personally don't believe that some characters having a better follow up after a parry would be as bad as some players currently having better parry punishes. and that's because in the new game (with the ptr changes) more heavies and more lights would be used. and OOS would be more punishing. Those factors combined would make you have to carefully consider who you play rather than just going for the hero with the best light punish.

That's what I tried to get on about with orochi in my original post. he'd be the best to go with for reactionary players. But due to his limited kit and pretty awful OOS punish game (as seen on ptr) he wouldn't be the best person overall.

I'm not really worried about heros specifically till we get to lay our eyes and grubby hands on their giant list of hero changes that are probably next on ptr. at the moment i'm just trying to look at the mechanics themselves. As for chip on kill. I've already stated my feeling on that.

But lets say chip WAS allowed to kill. how would I add that? Well. i'd make it so potentially after chipping someone below 25 health 2-3 times. then their character is considered "weakened" and chip can now kill. If needed health regen could be disabled then as well. I suggest this because it gives the defender a chance or 2 to try and retaliate for a win. rather than mess up once and be chipped to death by a light attack spammer.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 10:20 AM
to resolve turtle meta problem is simple:
- parry of a light garantee light and remove stamina 30% min max 40% depend of the speed of the light who suffer parry.
- parry a heavy garantee GB, but the GB NOT GARANTEE HEAVY, this is very important, many heroes like nobushi can have special attack after projection, or other have counter attacks after parry so, no need that meccanic.

Problem with the second giving GB is positional advantage. which could lead to a ledge kill or a splat which for some heros is massive damage. It would just mean people would go looking for the heavy parry. and people would complain that parrying a light doesn't feel as rewarding as a heavy.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 10:25 AM
Or 3rd option: give all heroes only light (just light, no special ones like Orochi's) by parrying light and chance to light after heavy (you can dodge if you're good enough).

Edit:

This would give clear advantage to the classes that can use wall splat to make some nasty things or Warlord (again).

So if I understand properly. a light parry would only guarentee a light and no follow ups. and a heavy parry potentially gives nothing?

I can't agree. Heavy parrying would be pointless (reminds me actually that orochi's hurricane blast is essentially pointless because people can roll out of it.)
and not being able to get follow ups after landing a light on a light parry would effect combat pace in a weird way.

I can only imagine you suggest this because some heros currently with the ptr changes would have better light punishes. As I explained in a different post before this really isn't a problem when you consider all other changes. Because while for instance rochi might become the fan favorite for parry happy reactionary players rochi's overall moveset is very simple thus predictable. and he's got bad OOS game.

The only light parry punish off the top of my head that would no doubt be a problem is centurions parry GB for the knee. Since I believe the prt removed his light parry punish of a fully charged heavy. (though if that isn't gone it deff should go.) and they could just easily tweak the stam damage on that rather than nerf follow ups as a whole.

Draghmar
08-02-2017, 10:48 AM
I don't mind follow ups for light, so chaining is good. What I meant are the special attacks like Orochi's. His double light doesn't differ from heavy in terms of damage. If the changes to gameplay are there to address turtling because of fear of being parry then giving some classes punishment that is the same as before won't change anything for them. You still going to turtle because of the fear you eat big damage.

Heavy giving only chance for light is only an idea that I'd really like to test. You should not be able to block, only dodge. And the window should be very small for dodging out of it. Maybe it would be stupid when playing but I still like to try it before making final judgment.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 11:09 AM
I don't mind follow ups for light, so chaining is good. What I meant are the special attacks like Orochi's. His double light doesn't differ from heavy in terms of damage. If the changes to gameplay are there to address turtling because of fear of being parry then giving some classes punishment that is the same as before won't change anything for them. You still going to turtle because of the fear you eat big damage.

Heavy giving only chance for light is only an idea that I'd really like to test. You should not be able to block, only dodge. And the window should be very small for dodging out of it. Maybe it would be stupid when playing but I still like to try it before making final judgment.

Special attacks still seems like a lose term. if you target orochi's double light you'd be targeting shinobi's double light since it functions the exact same. Minus the damage and the ability to do it from any direction. Would centurions parry+ Gb be considered special as well? I need to know what other things you're considering. or if it's literally just orochi's double light.

I don't agree with that logic. On one hand yes. orochi being able to parry and land chunk damage would be scary. On the other hand dealing with an orochi has never been difficult. And his gameplay would largely be unchanged with the new changes in mind. So people shouldn't have to adjust at all in order to be able to do that.

If orochi's double light becomes a problem post drop of the ptr changes they can specifically address his double light. and not everything else.

Wouldn't I just be able to GB you for free if you choose to dodge after I parried your heavy? that means good free damage. I don't like the sound of that.

Camemberto
08-02-2017, 11:10 AM
how about: quite simply: nothing is guaranteed.
Parry into light -> get parried immediately to heavy -> parry and guardbreak -> counterguardbreak light -> block to light... and so on

Now THAT is combat. If an attack or guardbreak is guaranteed after a parry, attacking is generally a risk, because you could get parried and can't do anything about the followup.
-> turtle

But if attacking isn't as risky -> less turtles
Also: parrying wouldn't be as rewarding -> less turtles

now some of you might be raising their pitchforks already chanting "light spam! light spam!"
solution: block them? evade them? make them cost more stamina!

also blocking a light will interrupt the chain, and might give you a frame advantage? (whatever that is) :D

sure this might widen the skill-gap or whatever, but that should not be a problem by any means if the fcking matchmaking worked properly :D

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 11:20 AM
how about: quite simply: nothing is guaranteed.
Parry into light -> get parried immediately to heavy -> parry and guardbreak -> counterguardbreak light -> block to light... and so on

Now THAT is combat. If an attack or guardbreak is guaranteed after a parry, attacking is generally a risk, because you could get parried and can't do anything about the followup.
-> turtle

But if attacking isn't as risky -> less turtles
Also: parrying wouldn't be as rewarding -> less turtles

now some of you might be raising their pitchforks already chanting "light spam! light spam!"
solution: block them? evade them? make them cost more stamina!

also blocking a light will interrupt the chain, and might give you a frame advantage? (whatever that is) :D

sure this might widen the skill-gap or whatever, but that should not be a problem by any means if the fcking matchmaking worked properly :D

I can't agree. most ptr footage I saw people were constantly attacking and really only turtled up when 25 hp or lower.
If parry gave nothing than parrying would be pointless. And people would just parry eachother till the other ran out of stamina.
But the person couldn't press that as an advantage because he too would be low on stamina due to constantly being parried.

It would turn into nothing but random thrown lights and nothing but blocking till one person was inevitably chipped to 25 health. and at that point it wouldn't end due to chip not killing at the moment. and no light being strong enough bar orochi's to parry and chunk them.

Your solution doesn't really work at all.

Camemberto
08-02-2017, 11:28 AM
The thing is, you always assume two perfect players, when making those claims. I can't parry everything that comes at me and neither can most of my opponents. You make a mistake, you get punished. In my opinion, simply doing a heavy attack shouldn't be something to be immediately punished for. Missing the block on the follow up is.

And it's not like the game entirely revolves around parries. Especially not, should this change be implemented. People would have to find other ways to open up their opponent, which is what we want to encourage right? ...right?

Snoop_Godly
08-02-2017, 11:30 AM
A parry shouldn't reward you anything. You say it's more skill parrying a light? True. But it's minimal risk. You risk getting hit by a light but want maximum reward if you parry it. Yet you take maxim risk parrying a heavy. Na. A parry of any kind should do one thing and one thing only. Push the enemy back and give you a change to either A. Rethink and give you a little breathing space or B. Push with your attack. Assassins take risks for a reward. A deflect. Mostly if you mess up. You get hit or you miss their attack. Iv seen people parry yet still block when mess it up. Simple. Block lights. Parry heavies to push you own attack. As for assassins. Block lights. Deflect heavies to push your own attack wile adding a bit of damage. Because that's what the assassin class is meant for. Any parry should push the enemy back and open them up for your attacks. I. Turn the tables. No free damage should be awarded. Or it just creates the whole turtle mind set yet again.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 11:33 AM
The thing is, you always assume two perfect players, when making those claims. I can't parry everything that comes at me and neither can most of my opponents. You make a mistake, you get punished. In my opinion, simply doing a heavy attack shouldn't be something to be immediately punished for. Missing the block on the follow up is.

And it's not like the game entirely revolves around parries. Especially not, should this change be implemented. People would have to find other ways to open up their opponent, which is what we want to encourage right? ...right?

Parrying isn't difficult to do. the above description would be common enough to warrent concern.
You're using the same logic that is being used to change the game.

The problem is that same logic doesn't apply to the current changes because lights after a parry are no where near as damaging or as scary as a normal light parry punish that exists on live. We don't need to crank the changes to 11 and get rid of damage off of a parry. We just needed to remove the huge rewards. and these changes did. we don't need to go further.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 11:39 AM
A parry shouldn't reward you anything. You say it's more skill parrying a light? True. But it's minimal risk. You risk getting hit by a light but want maximum reward if you parry it. Yet you take maxim risk parrying a heavy. Na. A parry of any kind should do one thing and one thing only. Push the enemy back and give you a change to either A. Rethink and give you a little breathing space or B. Push with your attack. Assassins take risks for a reward. A deflect. Mostly if you mess up. You get hit or you miss their attack. Iv seen people parry yet still block when mess it up. Simple. Block lights. Parry heavies to push you own attack. As for assassins. Block lights. Deflect heavies to push your own attack wile adding a bit of damage. Because that's what the assassin class is meant for. Any parry should push the enemy back and open them up for your attacks. I. Turn the tables. No free damage should be awarded. Or it just creates the whole turtle mind set yet again.

No it doesn't. because the light damage anyone gets in these ptr changes save perhaps orochi is nothing to be scared of. You're basically saying "if I attack I risk damage. so I should only defend." which is just a silly statement. People turtle on live for 2 reasons. Insane damage punishes. and parries being the only reliable way for the whole cast to get in on a reactive/defensive player.

These current changes remove the huge damage punishes. and allow other ways in on people. turtling is going to always exist because of how the game is made. You won't get rid of someone playing reactionary regardless of what changes are made. that's why adjustments are made to the rewards of doing so. And like I mentioned to the user above you these changes already accomplish that (outside of the 25 hp mark) which I even admitted needed to be addressed post ptr.

You're trying to do exactly what the guy above you is suggesting. cranking the changes to 11. If there were any indication that people were going to only turtle still post these changes i'd agree and say further action is required on tweaking parries. However I watched LOADS of ptr footage. I didn't see an increase in turtles. Not even in the slightest. and I saw far more aggression.

Also. They put a change on ptr that specifically keeps someone's guard open if they fail a parry time and try to cancel it. which addresses your point about someone blocking after a failed parry.

Draghmar
08-02-2017, 11:48 AM
Special attacks still seems like a lose term. if you target orochi's double light you'd be targeting shinobi's double light since it functions the exact same. Minus the damage and the ability to do it from any direction. Would centurions parry+ Gb be considered special as well? I need to know what other things you're considering. or if it's literally just orochi's double light.

I don't agree with that logic. On one hand yes. orochi being able to parry and land chunk damage would be scary. On the other hand dealing with an orochi has never been difficult. And his gameplay would largely be unchanged with the new changes in mind. So people shouldn't have to adjust at all in order to be able to do that.

If orochi's double light becomes a problem post drop of the ptr changes they can specifically address his double light. and not everything else.

Wouldn't I just be able to GB you for free if you choose to dodge after I parried your heavy? that means good free damage. I don't like the sound of that.
I said exacly *like* Orochi's. I meant all the attacks that gives almost the same damage as heavy being light by definition. Right now it's Orochi, Warden and Shinobi. Moves that are part of the action *after* parry like your Cent example should be dealt depending on the damage it gives. My goal here is to not leave any class in the advantageous position in regards to parry because it would force turtling against them like right now is against every class.

So you say that Orochi's gameplay would suffer so much by taking double top away? It only means that he needs rework or at least tweak to his moveset. Because you say he needs OP move because he doesn't have anything else to fight with. (Conq case?)

You can react to light after heavy. So if opponent try to land an light attack you can dodge. He won't be able to GB after that the same way like in every other attack that is dodged. If he choose to GB you can CGB. The only problem I see are assasins with their dodge attacks. But like I said, I'd like to test this to see how it would behave.

Alustar.
08-02-2017, 11:49 AM
I'm with you on this Raime, as a person who plays Other fighting games that's a similar formula. Blocking attacks is a great way to mitigate incoming damage while parrying should be only a way to completely negate you opponents attack and gain your own momentum in a fight, having free damage off of parries isn't a way to encourage skilled play.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 11:55 AM
I said exacly *like* Orochi's. I meant all the attacks that gives almost the same damage as heavy being light by definition. Right now it's Orochi, Warden and Shinobi. Moves that are part of the action *after* parry like your Cent example should be dealt depending on the damage it gives. My goal here is to not leave any class in the advantageous position in regards to parry because it would force turtling against them like right now is against every class.

So you say that Orochi's gameplay would suffer so much by taking double top away? It only means that he needs rework or at least tweak to his moveset. Because you say he needs OP move because he doesn't have anything else to fight with. (Conq case?)

You can react to light after heavy. So if opponent try to land an light attack you can dodge. He won't be able to GB after that the same way like in every other attack that is dodged. If he choose to GB you can CGB. The only problem I see are assasins with their dodge attacks. But like I said, I'd like to test this to see how it would behave.

Thanks for listing the other examples. i'm still not sure how I feel about removing those. i'd say we let the changes go live. and if those people do become issues because of those specific reasons i'd rather they adjust them individually then try to change the whole mechanic. but that's just me.

No you misunderstand me. I'm not saying he needs the double light. i'm just saying I personally don't believe orochi would be "op" when these new changes drop due to his simplistic kit set and lack of OOS game. it would mean orochi is severely good at reaction play. but nothing else. and we'd have to see after the changes drop if that alone is enough to make him a problem or not.

I'm not saying I'd be against him being changed. I just don't believe as is there is enough to state that it would be a problem 100%. I want his kit really worked over anyway. it needs to be better. and if it comes at the cost of double light being weaker in some fashion i'd be fine with it. I made the same statement about my precious centurion losing his charged heavy punish off of a light parry.

So if he parries your heavy he can't GB immediately if he goes for a light. and if he goes to GB you after the heavy parry instead you can CGB it? I'm still not sold on it. because potentially the heavy parry gives you nothing. which i'm not fond of.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 11:57 AM
I'm with you on this Raime, as a person who plays Other fighting games that's a similar formula. Blocking attacks is a great way to mitigate incoming damage while parrying should be only a way to completely negate you opponents attack and gain your own momentum in a fight, having free damage off of parries isn't a way to encourage skilled play.

Well yes to all of that. cept the "free damage" bit. i'm not advocating for entire damage removal off of parries. Just massive damages off of parries. Light damage is fine for most heros since light attacks don't do much damage. people would still be required to try other things or mix ups if they wanted more. I don't believe a parry would be worth doing if we didn't get any damage off of it. But that's just me.

Snoop_Godly
08-02-2017, 11:59 AM
In fact. Unblockable should be parried with a gb. And unblockable should be deflected. Thoughts?

Draghmar
08-02-2017, 12:09 PM
Thanks for listing the other examples. i'm still not sure how I feel about removing those. i'd say we let the changes go live. and if those people do become issues because of those specific reasons i'd rather they adjust them individually then try to change the whole mechanic. but that's just me.

No you misunderstand me. I'm not saying he needs the double light. i'm just saying I personally don't believe orochi would be "op" when these new changes drop due to his simplistic kit set and lack of OOS game. it would mean orochi is severely good at reaction play. but nothing else. and we'd have to see after the changes drop if that alone is enough to make him a problem or not.

I'm not saying I'd be against him being changed. I just don't believe as is there is enough to state that it would be a problem 100%. I want his kit really worked over anyway. it needs to be better. and if it comes at the cost of double light being weaker in some fashion i'd be fine with it. I made the same statement about my precious centurion losing his charged heavy punish off of a light parry.

So if he parries your heavy he can't GB immediately if he goes for a light. and if he goes to GB you after the heavy parry instead you can CGB it? I'm still not sold on it. because potentially the heavy parry gives you nothing. which i'm not fond of.
Don't see reason for them to go live. We have PTS for that purpose. ;)

Sorry then. My point is that double attacks gives almost the same damage as heavy so for those classes removing heavy after parry doesn't change too much.

Right now on PTS parry doesn't give you GB. So in my suggestion you would have two options after heavy to try: GB or light. Both reactable. But I agree that parry doesn't giving anything guaranteed may be bad. But then again heavies would be used much more. Currently on PTS heavies are risky because they are slow (except for Cent) so it's quite easy to parry them and the reward is the same as for parry light. And remember that they also changed heavies startup so heavy->feint->gb won't work

Camemberto
08-02-2017, 12:22 PM
compromise:

parry a light: get a quick light in
parry a heavy: drain enemy stamina, get some distance

I think this might work.. lights are way harder to parry, so you get a free light as a reward. Parrying a heavy however is pretty easy, however if you mess up, you get a lot of damage.

chip damage only for heavy attacks is fine IMO, as long as it's not as huge and doesn't kill.

Vakris_One
08-02-2017, 12:23 PM
and for chip dmg.. chip dmg need to kill.. this is no question for me because of a simple reason: If chip dmg can kill your enemy.. you will go in more aggresiv while your enemy is in the last 25 health.. so your enemy is going to turtle (he would turtle even if chip dmg dont kill) so you need more mindgames to break him open.. but your enemy also need a lot more effort to stay alive.. he need to parry or doge your attacks he cant just wait for you to make a big mistake
No. Allowing chip damage to kill will go too far the other way and create an attack spam meta. The way it is now in the PTS is a good attempt at balance between offense and defense in my opinion. There needs to be a relevancy to defense as well as aggression as long as one is not overwhelmingly more effective than the other.

Felis_Menari
08-02-2017, 12:46 PM
Wow...I didn't even think about the Orochi's double top light. Yeah, that definitely is gonna need to change with the removal of the light parry advantage.

ThomHermans1
08-02-2017, 03:05 PM
Or 3rd option: give all heroes only light (just light, no special ones like Orochi's) by parrying light and chance to light after heavy (you can dodge if you're good enough).

Edit:

This would give clear advantage to the classes that can use wall splat to make some nasty things or Warlord (again).

Cant they just remove the ability to wallsplat > Heavy for the warlord? or reduce the damage of a wallsplat > heavy?

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 07:24 PM
In fact. Unblockable should be parried with a gb. And unblockable should be deflected. Thoughts?

I don't think unblockables code wise can be deflect due to deflecting being treated with some block properties. but it would be cool if you could deflect them with it.
As for unblockable parries giving a gb...
well. It could and couldn't work. on heros like raider that's basically another heavy nerf.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 07:30 PM
Don't see reason for them to go live. We have PTS for that purpose. ;)

Sorry then. My point is that double attacks gives almost the same damage as heavy so for those classes removing heavy after parry doesn't change too much.

Right now on PTS parry doesn't give you GB. So in my suggestion you would have two options after heavy to try: GB or light. Both reactable. But I agree that parry doesn't giving anything guaranteed may be bad. But then again heavies would be used much more. Currently on PTS heavies are risky because they are slow (except for Cent) so it's quite easy to parry them and the reward is the same as for parry light. And remember that they also changed heavies startup so heavy->feint->gb won't work

Well we can see what the character specific changes they have on the next ptr. and potentially test your ideas there ;p
I see your point. But I don't think it applies to all 3 that you listed.

you can say it does in a way. due to the move itself not changing.
rochi's parry punish is double light in live and on ptr. so that rings true.
Shin's was actually a ranged attack to land in sickle rain. But that's gone. so him getting double light off of parry in ptr is not only not the same but a far worse parry punish.
and wardens...I don't actually recall what her best parry punish is. I know it's not top heavy. she doesn't get that. I think she gets side heavy. (in order to get top heavy she'd have to parry>gb> throw into splat> top heavy.) If we refer that as her best parry punish her 2 side lights are not comparable to it. and thus only getting the 2 lights would be not as strong.

Yeah i'm in love with the heavy feint gb thing they did. makes more heavies usable now.

Knight_Raime
08-02-2017, 07:34 PM
compromise:

parry a light: get a quick light in
parry a heavy: drain enemy stamina, get some distance

I think this might work.. lights are way harder to parry, so you get a free light as a reward. Parrying a heavy however is pretty easy, however if you mess up, you get a lot of damage.

chip damage only for heavy attacks is fine IMO, as long as it's not as huge and doesn't kill.

So the light parry does no stam damage? just light?
and get distance...do you mean like every hero would parry the person and out play an animation that pushes them back?

The immediate problem I see with that is ledging. And splats. You'd have to make it so the shove doesn't splat. like how some other bash moves don't. other than that it's just resetting the fight to neutral for the most part along side some stam damage. I could potentially see that so long as the light parry also did some stam damage.

My only concern with this suggestion really is that it technically makes one type of parry better than the other. which could put the focus back on parrying. However if I understand you properly both things are technically doing the same thing. just in a different fashion.

So. interesting proposal!

UbiNoty
08-03-2017, 12:15 AM
Ty for the feedback. We've seen a ton of debate around the parry changes and we'll be glad to incorporate your feedback and suggestions into the discussion as well. We're trying to move away from the turtle playstyle where parrying is too rewarding, but we don't want to make it totally useless either - so thank you for your suggestions. I really do wish console players could have had the opportunity to participate in the PT as well, but unfortunately we couldn't make it happen this time.

Knight_Raime
08-03-2017, 12:17 AM
Ty for the feedback. We've seen a ton of debate around the parry changes and we'll be glad to incorporate your feedback and suggestions into the discussion as well. We're trying to move away from the turtle playstyle where parrying is too rewarding, but we don't want to make it totally useless either - so thank you for your suggestions. I really do wish console players could have had the opportunity to participate in the PT as well, but unfortunately we couldn't make it happen this time.

I'm not upset. I understand the limitations of my platform. and you guys are listening to the feedback of console players regardless so I don't feel left out!

Camemberto
08-03-2017, 06:46 AM
So the light parry does no stam damage? just light?
and get distance...do you mean like every hero would parry the person and out play an animation that pushes them back?

The immediate problem I see with that is ledging. And splats. You'd have to make it so the shove doesn't splat. like how some other bash moves don't. other than that it's just resetting the fight to neutral for the most part along side some stam damage. I could potentially see that so long as the light parry also did some stam damage.

The light parry should also give some stamina damage, just nowhere near as much, as a heavy parry would do. So I left it out for it to be less confusing.
Maybe I should have explained the "get some distance" bit more. I don't mean a shove or anything that drastic. It should just put the characters at a bit of a greater distance, so they can recuperate and refocus. Additionally I think the one who parried the heavy attack should come out of the situation with a bit of a frame advantage, one that guarantees nothing, but makes it damn hard to react to.

Knight_Raime
08-03-2017, 12:21 PM
The light parry should also give some stamina damage, just nowhere near as much, as a heavy parry would do. So I left it out for it to be less confusing.
Maybe I should have explained the "get some distance" bit more. I don't mean a shove or anything that drastic. It should just put the characters at a bit of a greater distance, so they can recuperate and refocus. Additionally I think the one who parried the heavy attack should come out of the situation with a bit of a frame advantage, one that guarantees nothing, but makes it damn hard to react to.

Thanks for clearing that up. In your proposed changes the light parry seems fine.
and it's interesting that (ignoring the second half of the heavy parry) you're doing more stamina damage.
that alone means you can choose to do stam damage either way. but you could either go for free light damage with the possibility of more damage if you mix up right.
OR you could heavy parry. which could put the person near or into OOS. which allows you to pressure a lot. and it wouldn't be like parrying a heavy when it wouldn't get them close to OOS would mean a heavy parry would be bad. because blocked attacks temp pause stamina regen anyway. so you could still eventually chip their stamina down into OOS either way.

The second bit though still some what confuses me. But it still just sounds like a reset to neutral. But some how the person who parried has some kind of advantage. If the person who parried in this situation can't get any attack off guaranteed from your change the only thing I could see this frame advantage doing means if the person tries to retaliate immediately your character is basically instantly ready. and thus wouldn't be able to try anything on you without you possibly defending it.

If that's what you're referring to i'd say that's a bit too niche. I WOULD like to propose a second solution though. We keep your light parry as is. We keep your heavy parry as is minus the frame thing. Because it would be a good general balance for both. and provide a meaningful choice to make without making either option inherently the better option. BUT i'd like it so heavy parries can "enable" certain moves that are incredibly niche.

lets say orochi's hurricane blast. as it stands right now he can't land it realistically because you can roll out of it. So lets say if orochi manages to deflect a heavy. His hurricane blast becomes inescapable. This at first sounds dangerous and OP. because it's a fair bit of damage when it lands. however people are not used to parrying random thrown heavies. only heavies they trick people into using. Also. deflect in itself is a difficult thing to do. and it actively puts the person at risk for attempting it. those 2 factors would make it balanced.

I'm incredibly tired right now. So I can't think of any other specific moves at the moment that are niche as heck like orochi's hurricane blast. But I know a few more exist. My entire point is that we could let heavy parries fulfill the role of letting the niche moves land. That way more of the kit has use. and it's not super simple to accomplish (as most niche moves are niche either due to the worth not being the same as something else or because it's not a situation you'd find yourself in frequently.)

I would be 100% fine with your ideas (tacked on with my suggestion) if PTR lands and parrying doesn't feel useful enough after. But ultimately i'd really like players to chew on the new changes a bit before we go around trying to toy with the base mechanics again. Make sense?

Camemberto
08-03-2017, 12:39 PM
@Knight_Raime

so general consensus:

light parry -> HP damage
heavy parry -> Stamina drain

I don't really understand the niche move thingy, though. Do you suggest, that a move that would normally require a deflect now becomes accessible through parrying heavies? because if so, then no, absolutely not. deflecting is a way riskier maneuver than a parry and should be rewarded accordingly. On consoles anyway.. PC vs. PS4 makes a difference when it comes to deflecting, big time IMO.
Also hurricane blast is an unblockable out of a deflect and to my knowledge also inescapable anyway. I could be wrong.

Knight_Raime
08-03-2017, 01:09 PM
@Knight_Raime

so general consensus:

light parry -> HP damage
heavy parry -> Stamina drain

I don't really understand the niche move thingy, though. Do you suggest, that a move that would normally require a deflect now becomes accessible through parrying heavies? because if so, then no, absolutely not. deflecting is a way riskier maneuver than a parry and should be rewarded accordingly. On consoles anyway.. PC vs. PS4 makes a difference when it comes to deflecting, big time IMO.
Also hurricane blast is an unblockable out of a deflect and to my knowledge also inescapable anyway. I could be wrong.

Light parry= small hp damage. small stam damage.
heavy parry= chunking stamina. and on certain kits niche moves become guaranteed.

No i'm not suggesting orochi's heavy deflect happens when he heavy parries. he'd still need to deflect to get it. I was using that as an example of a niche move.
What i'm saying is normally there are a handful of moves out there that don't typically land or get used because the situations for either never benefit the user in a way that is desirable.
Instead of trying to individually buff those moves I was suggesting we let a heavy parry (except orochi's example) be the way those moves can be used and landed.

It wouldn't make the moves better out right. But it would mean they COULD be used. which in an indirect way means the kit is overall better. and the person fighting you has to know more about your kit to try and predict what you may attempt to do.

Currently if you are deflected and the orochi goes for a hurricane blast you can back dodge twice to roll away. The orochi can see this coming and soft cancel his blast into a wind gust. or cancel it with a back dash and storm rush at you. But why even attempt the blast anyway? if all you'll likely get is wind gust just go for wind gust. that's not escapable. and only some heros can be caught by the back dash storm rush attempt during their double roll. so it's not consistent. and it doesn't get you much. again begging the question why attempt it. It's been suggested by orochi mains (including myself before cent came out) that we let hurricane blast land 100% if you deflect a certain move that is on all heros.

In this case it would be a heavy attack.

Camemberto
08-03-2017, 01:31 PM
I disagree... that would mean, that a heavy parry is much more rewarding than it should be. You are talking about guaranteed damage, which is exactly what we were trying to rule out in the first place. Also only giving it to certain characters seems unbalanced and unfair.

Orochis would never even try to deflect, since it's just a riskier way to get less rewards fot the same stunt... no...

I know you took the Orochi only as an example, but I think deflect moves in general should definitely stay in a separate category.

Camemberto
08-03-2017, 01:40 PM
I had an idea on how to close the debate of whether or not parrying should be possible in OOS.

simply put: yes, but...

Proposal 1: When OOS, parrying is basically the same as a superior block. It stops any chain but doesn't drain the opponents stamina.
-> Parrying in OOS = same as superior block when not OOS.

Does blocking a light attack stop the chain when OOS? Do light attacks do chip damage? If so, there might be another, lower level to parrying in OOS.

Proposal 2: When OOS, parrying will completely negate heavy damage, but not stop the chain, but stop the chain on light attacks. Basically
-> Parrying in OOS = same as normal block when not OOS.

Maybe the superior block model for characters with shields?

In that case, chip damage should kill, because now, there is something you can do about it

Franck703
08-03-2017, 03:52 PM
"how about: quite simply: nothing is guaranteed."

This, so much this! I've been thinking the same for a while now. What we need is no guaranteed punish. Currently the state of the game is: some offensive actions are punishable and no defensive actions are punishable. This is where the game fails.

From my understanding of fighting games (haven't played any, but read many posts by people who played them) it seems that defense is punishable by throw, which is not the case here. Defense being punishable by throw makes defence punishable and avoids the turtle meta.

In this game the only punishable moves are offensive. When some move exist that are unpunishable (defense, light attack for some class, heavy into feint into eventually GB) these moves will be used at the exclusion of everything else (All of Valkyrie's dash attack that are punishable on a block for example). You want to make the game fluid and an exchange of attacks? Remove all automatic punish. Automatically the game will become a dance of death with both players trying offensive maneuvers to get in some damage (there is no other way to apply damage.)

Sure, maybe light spam might become a problem, but surely something can be done about that if that happens?

Just make parry do stamina damage and give a frame advantage. If a parry is done at the right time it can make a character go OOS and if OOS is punishable that is reward enough (on top of blocking unstoppables).

AzureSky.
08-03-2017, 04:03 PM
Parry wasnt the problem (i only played vs 1 turtle YES! 1 turtle in all of this 2 seasons... still won vs him with his own medicine) the problem is people that think this should be a fast paced fighting game like street fighter, or worse, a moba... Any of you ever played chivalry medieval warfrare? yeah, well the game is supposed (and its balanced in the live version) to be like that, a REACTIONARY! (you cant react in street fighter or tekken, just predict mixups and act based on that) rock paper scissor style of game, with support on defense and mindgames.

The core of the problem is that the game dont have any kind of mixups in most of the characters, or the mixups are too simple so everyone can predict them, chaining attacks, thats the problem.

Chaining attacks are just faster attacks with similar or little less damage, this shouldnt be like this, they should be different moves with wide differences in speed and damage + mixup potential with other chains so you can change the string, being unpredictable its the way to beat the turtle meta, as i said before i only had ONE game that didnt work (vs a conqueror) but most of the times people fall for the parrys and YOU CAN OPEN THEM UP because of that (if you all mid - high tier players dont know how to open people and call it turtle meta its your skill, not the games problem)

Franck703
08-03-2017, 05:22 PM
"the problem is people that think this should be a fast paced fighting game like street fighter, or worse, a moba..."

I stopped reading after that strawman, sorry. I'm not, and others I've seen haven't claimed this has to be a fast paced game.

Knight_Raime
08-03-2017, 08:45 PM
I disagree... that would mean, that a heavy parry is much more rewarding than it should be. You are talking about guaranteed damage, which is exactly what we were trying to rule out in the first place. Also only giving it to certain characters seems unbalanced and unfair.

Orochis would never even try to deflect, since it's just a riskier way to get less rewards fot the same stunt... no...

I know you took the Orochi only as an example, but I think deflect moves in general should definitely stay in a separate category.

I mean not exactly. the niche moves are basically the same as a light. Just harder to actually land. And since in your changes and my suggestion parrying a light gives a light already I don't see the big deal. But. it was just a suggestion. they could focus on buffing those moves individually instead. I don't see how my suggestion changed a deflect move into being with parries. I simply was stating that it would be a property of doing a counter (parry/deflect) on a heavy.


I had an idea on how to close the debate of whether or not parrying should be possible in OOS.

simply put: yes, but...

Proposal 1: When OOS, parrying is basically the same as a superior block. It stops any chain but doesn't drain the opponents stamina.
-> Parrying in OOS = same as superior block when not OOS.

Does blocking a light attack stop the chain when OOS? Do light attacks do chip damage? If so, there might be another, lower level to parrying in OOS.

Proposal 2: When OOS, parrying will completely negate heavy damage, but not stop the chain, but stop the chain on light attacks. Basically
-> Parrying in OOS = same as normal block when not OOS.

Maybe the superior block model for characters with shields?

In that case, chip damage should kill, because now, there is something you can do about it

I don't like either of these options. and can't agree regardless of proposals. Parrying no matter how you look at it in OOS gives too much defense. wether it only stops combos or it allows the person to escape oos. it's stopping the person's assault on you. which I don't want. I want OOS to force someone to sit there and either take the punishment or carefully time a dodge or 2 to avoid some chip. That's it.

Knight_Raime
08-03-2017, 08:52 PM
"how about: quite simply: nothing is guaranteed."

This, so much this! I've been thinking the same for a while now. What we need is no guaranteed punish. Currently the state of the game is: some offensive actions are punishable and no defensive actions are punishable. This is where the game fails.

From my understanding of fighting games (haven't played any, but read many posts by people who played them) it seems that defense is punishable by throw, which is not the case here. Defense being punishable by throw makes defence punishable and avoids the turtle meta.

In this game the only punishable moves are offensive. When some move exist that are unpunishable (defense, light attack for some class, heavy into feint into eventually GB) these moves will be used at the exclusion of everything else (All of Valkyrie's dash attack that are punishable on a block for example). You want to make the game fluid and an exchange of attacks? Remove all automatic punish. Automatically the game will become a dance of death with both players trying offensive maneuvers to get in some damage (there is no other way to apply damage.)

Sure, maybe light spam might become a problem, but surely something can be done about that if that happens?

Just make parry do stamina damage and give a frame advantage. If a parry is done at the right time it can make a character go OOS and if OOS is punishable that is reward enough (on top of blocking unstoppables).

throws is indeed one way in fighting games to counter someone blocking. But for honor doesn't have the depth or complexity of an average fighter. which is why the fewer options feel more..powerful. Like how parry became the end all be all.

Frame advantage means next to nothing in for honor. it has only ever resulted in you being able to get free damage. (though I suppose before they removed GB during heavies that could count as frame advantage.) point is frames in this game don't mean as much as a typical fighter. where things are much faster. and people have a lot more options. Not just on a kit level but as a core mechanical design for the base game. like in Blazblue you have a resource that is a meter. it lets you preform special moves. and another meter ish. that you can activate once maybe twice in the match that gives you a few new moves only for that short period. and activating it mid being attacked makes the attack fly through you.

Basically for honor is too simple. there is not enough there for "frame advantage" to do anything with outside of damage. which is what we're avoiding.

Camemberto
08-04-2017, 06:08 AM
I don't like either of these options. and can't agree regardless of proposals. Parrying no matter how you look at it in OOS gives too much defense. wether it only stops combos or it allows the person to escape oos. it's stopping the person's assault on you. which I don't want. I want OOS to force someone to sit there and either take the punishment or carefully time a dodge or 2 to avoid some chip. That's it.

Giving the player absolutely no way to negate damage other that dodging is stupid IMO. They wanted the parry nerfed, not removed.
Being able to parry also enables you to open up opponents while OOS by feinting, because they know, that the dodge is slow, so parrying might be the only option to not die. I think it should definitely stay in the game.

Yes it does stop the assault of the other player and that's a good thing in many ways. One person "Just sit[ting] there" doesn't sound like a lot of fun on either end. It's not like you could make an immediate comeback after you parried someone, because stamina regeneration would be stopped and you'd still be OOS, slow as all balls. There should always be a defense, even when OOS, it's just, that it's way harder to to.

Otherwise you are almost completely out of options as well and that just sounds frustrating.. "Oh I'm OOS, dodging time!"...meh

TheTKOShow
08-04-2017, 06:59 AM
Ok please someone try this out

Instead of a free anything after parry
What if your stam drains to zero.
So then your oos and have to deal with that

In a gank situation if you get parried your respawning, I'm sorry but get parried in a out numbered fight and just say wow good fight. but you parry one of them and you have yourself a 1v1 for about 6 seconds. Makes outnumbered fights a little easier. Parry both of them and the tables have turned.


Can't get parried in revenge so that kinda works itself. Parry someone in revenge and I say they just hit the dirt with a stam penalty. Or full blow on the ground out of Stam.

It doesn't give an advantage to a certain class. It's easy to figure out. Don't get parried and everything is ok. parry and win/survive long enough for someone to prove revenge 😞

Someone poke holes in this

Camemberto
08-04-2017, 07:19 AM
Ok please someone try this out

Instead of a free anything after parry
What if your stam drains to zero.
So then your oos and have to deal with that

In a gank situation if you get parried your respawning, I'm sorry but get parried in a out numbered fight and just say wow good fight. but you parry one of them and you have yourself a 1v1 for about 6 seconds. Makes outnumbered fights a little easier. Parry both of them and the tables have turned.


Can't get parried in revenge so that kinda works itself. Parry someone in revenge and I say they just hit the dirt with a stam penalty. Or full blow on the ground out of Stam.

It doesn't give an advantage to a certain class. It's easy to figure out. Don't get parried and everything is ok. parry and win/survive long enough for someone to prove revenge ��

Someone poke holes in this

I don't get it... like at all...

Who*s stamina drains to zero after the parry? The one, who parried or the one who gets parried. either way, hell naw.
The second paragraph I just flat out don't understand.
Revenge causes a parry to drain ALL stamina? no sir, just no -> turtle till you get revenge -> win
Is that last part supposed to be sarcasm or are you responding so someone else's suggestion there? I hope you're joking

Mia.Nora
08-04-2017, 07:24 AM
Parry needs to function as a momentum changer, nothing more.

Giving any guaranteed damage for parry will always bring turtle back. ALL damage should come from aggression, and parry can function as the stopper that stops the aggression and passes it to the other side.

Just one light is pretty neat with the exclusion of heroes who get a second free light afterwards, they need to make it so that light after parry should function as the combo starter, not the whole reward after which you go back to turtling.

Mia.Nora
08-04-2017, 07:31 AM
Parrying no matter how you look at it in OOS gives too much defense. wether it only stops combos or it allows the person to escape oos. it's stopping the person's assault on you. which I don't want. I want OOS to force someone to sit there and either take the punishment or carefully time a dodge or 2 to avoid some chip. That's it.

What about the imbalance it will create in the case of Centurion (your main as you said in some other thread where you claimed your lights are slow and telegraphed lol), who happens to be the one character who almost never has to worry about his own stamina and has absolutely the best stamina drain among all characters??

Because while a Berserker or a Conq gets a tiny bit of chip damage from OOS, Centurion only needs to H>Charged heavy for a tracking unblockable which ensures rest of its combo for 60 damage.

Don't say just dodge, because every other character has to work their *** off for getting in any damage, and no parry in OOS gives even more unnecessary advantages to Centurion.

Raider is problematic with no parry in OOS, but even he wont be able to abuse it as bad a Centurion since his unblockable is 1/2 of his stamina.


Anything that will make things easier for specific classes only is big no no, since that is the literal definition of imbalance. And no parry in OOS is exactly that.

Camemberto
08-04-2017, 07:41 AM
I feel like most of the advocates for "no OOS parry" only view the situation through the aggressor's eyes, not considering they might find themselves in those situations as well at some point.
By then they will be right back here shouting that OOS is unfair, unbalanced and they need a way to protect themselves. "Bring back parries" *raises pitchfork

Mia.Nora
08-04-2017, 07:51 AM
I feel like most of the advocates for "no OOS parry" only view the situation through the aggressor's eyes, not considering they might find themselves in those situations as well at some point.
By then they will be right back here shouting that OOS is unfair, unbalanced and they need a way to protect themselves. "Bring back parries" *raises pitchfork

Nah, not the people who main classes that will abuse the **** out of it.

Camemberto
08-04-2017, 08:28 AM
Nah, not the people who main classes that will abuse the **** out of it.

*cough *Centurion *cough

Felis_Menari
08-04-2017, 09:22 AM
If OOS is gonna result in the removal of parry capabilities, then enemy actions that drain stamina have got to be toned way the **** down. That **** isn't going to fly if parries still eat half your stamina bar.

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 09:31 AM
Giving the player absolutely no way to negate damage other that dodging is stupid IMO. They wanted the parry nerfed, not removed.
Being able to parry also enables you to open up opponents while OOS by feinting, because they know, that the dodge is slow, so parrying might be the only option to not die. I think it should definitely stay in the game.

Yes it does stop the assault of the other player and that's a good thing in many ways. One person "Just sit[ting] there" doesn't sound like a lot of fun on either end. It's not like you could make an immediate comeback after you parried someone, because stamina regeneration would be stopped and you'd still be OOS, slow as all balls. There should always be a defense, even when OOS, it's just, that it's way harder to to.

Otherwise you are almost completely out of options as well and that just sounds frustrating.. "Oh I'm OOS, dodging time!"...meh

As a rule of thumb with me I never particularly give much weight into what "feels" fun from a balancing perspective. CC historically (as an example) never feels fun to receive because it takes control away from the player. But it's pretty much required to keep power in check for most games.

So yeah. it doesn't/wouldn't feel good to go into OOS and be basically screwed until you're out. However you need to realize that while OOS is more punishing now in aspects. it's also less. parries were nerfed. So if you tried to attack at all they really can't do much to you off of parrying your slower attack. and stamina damage moves really don't keep you out of stamina in that state. so you won't be stuck in it as long as you can potentially be on live at the moment.
The OOS changes force you to either try to perfect dodge to escape damage entirely. or force you to block and still take chip. But at least you don't end up receiving major damage.

Them removing parry from OOS doesn't mean in anyway shape or form that parry as a mechanic is removed. making parry more difficult in OOS wouldn't solve the problem of parrying getting you out of being punished in that state. You shouldn't get OOS to begin with. and if you do you should be properly punished. Not perform a single simple move to escape it.

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 09:33 AM
Ok please someone try this out

Instead of a free anything after parry
What if your stam drains to zero.
So then your oos and have to deal with that

In a gank situation if you get parried your respawning, I'm sorry but get parried in a out numbered fight and just say wow good fight. but you parry one of them and you have yourself a 1v1 for about 6 seconds. Makes outnumbered fights a little easier. Parry both of them and the tables have turned.


Can't get parried in revenge so that kinda works itself. Parry someone in revenge and I say they just hit the dirt with a stam penalty. Or full blow on the ground out of Stam.

It doesn't give an advantage to a certain class. It's easy to figure out. Don't get parried and everything is ok. parry and win/survive long enough for someone to prove revenge 😞

Someone poke holes in this

No thank you. that would give too much power to parrying. which means parrying becomes the go to thing again. You do realize nearly every hero as an OOS punish that's really devistating right? being able to attempt that several times in a single match would be bad.

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 09:41 AM
Parry needs to function as a momentum changer, nothing more.

Giving any guaranteed damage for parry will always bring turtle back. ALL damage should come from aggression, and parry can function as the stopper that stops the aggression and passes it to the other side.

Just one light is pretty neat with the exclusion of heroes who get a second free light afterwards, they need to make it so that light after parry should function as the combo starter, not the whole reward after which you go back to turtling.

It doesn't really help the discussion if you don't specify exactly what that means. Just like people suggesting frame damage. You have to tell me/ the devs specifically what getting a parry would allow you to do. The parries as they functioned on PTR absolutely changed the momentem of fights. the reward for parrying is small enough that taking the damage from a parry isn't going to immediately make someone turtle up like what happens on live. Also that's terrible logic. People are going to turtle in for honor regardless of what changes the devs do or do not take. For honor even with these changes is still a very reaction based game. None of the changes on PTR were meant to get rid of turtling. Only lessen the reward for doing so. So talking to me trying to get turtling to go away is just an argument not worth having.



What about the imbalance it will create in the case of Centurion (your main as you said in some other thread where you claimed your lights are slow and telegraphed lol), who happens to be the one character who almost never has to worry about his own stamina and has absolutely the best stamina drain among all characters??

Because while a Berserker or a Conq gets a tiny bit of chip damage from OOS, Centurion only needs to H>Charged heavy for a tracking unblockable which ensures rest of its combo for 60 damage.

Don't say just dodge, because every other character has to work their *** off for getting in any damage, and no parry in OOS gives even more unnecessary advantages to Centurion.

Raider is problematic with no parry in OOS, but even he wont be able to abuse it as bad a Centurion since his unblockable is 1/2 of his stamina.


Anything that will make things easier for specific classes only is big no no, since that is the literal definition of imbalance. And no parry in OOS is exactly that.


(you didn't reply to me after I shot down your ****ty reply to me in that thread lol)
As i've mentioned in other replies centurion and anyone else who has stamina damage attacks should get those values tweaked to fall in line with those new PTR changes.
And centurion absolutely has to worry about his stamina. But i'm not going to turn this thread into another debate over the centurion. Especially with you.

All heros are going to need to be changed once these PTR changes go live. That's going to happen. They specifically mentioned way before we tested the first batch of changes on PTR 2 that they also had a bunch of planned changes for the classes to go along side the new changes to the mechanics. Even the centurion. I specifically avoid talking about hero specifics because of this.

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 09:44 AM
I feel like most of the advocates for "no OOS parry" only view the situation through the aggressor's eyes, not considering they might find themselves in those situations as well at some point.
By then they will be right back here shouting that OOS is unfair, unbalanced and they need a way to protect themselves. "Bring back parries" *raises pitchfork

Maybe shallow people who don't actually try and look at the bigger picture. certainly not me.
Will I "enjoy" being OOS with those changes? No. no one will. That's not the point.
the point is balance. Not wether I enjoy being punished for a mistake.

For the record i've fought against more than one centurion (while not my centurion) who kept me OOS for a decent while. It wasn't fun. But I didn't scream nerf.
And I certainly didn't think it needed fixing. The only 2 nerfs i've legit asked for on the centurion is the removal of the light parry punish (which is going) and the infinite combo (which is gone outside of corners.)

Camemberto
08-04-2017, 09:57 AM
Maybe shallow people who don't actually try and look at the bigger picture. certainly not me.
Will I "enjoy" being OOS with those changes? No. no one will. That's not the point.
the point is balance. Not wether I enjoy being punished for a mistake.

How is punching someone repeatedly without ANY risk whatsoever, while the other person can do absolutely nothing about it, balanced? Please elaborate, because I do not get it. I don't get how a parry, that would do nothing other than return to a NEUTRAL STATE, be imbalanced? Additionally this change would only make things even more unbalanced, because some characters have a really strong dodge game and some dash like trees. Parrying on the other hand is the EXACT SAME for every character. Talk to me about balance...

being out of stamina should be harder to cope with, not a death sentence... dodging on the console is harder than it is on the PC, because of several reasons. Firstly hitting the (X)-button takes valuable time, when your thumb is concentrated on blocking with the right stick. Secondly: frame rate. You just don't have that much of a reaction time window.. Only having to rely on dodges for console players is really really bad.

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 10:16 AM
How is punching someone repeatedly without ANY risk whatsoever, while the other person can do absolutely nothing about it, balanced?
Please elaborate, because I do not get it. I don't get how a parry, that would do nothing other than return to a NEUTRAL STATE, be imbalanced?

being out of stamina should be harder to cope with, not a death sentence... dodging on the console is harder than it is on the PC, because of several reasons. Firstly hitting the (X)-button takes valuable time, when your thumb is concentrated on blocking with the right stick. Secondly: frame rate. You just don't have that much of a reaction time window.. Only having to rely on dodges for console players is really really bad.

By punching I assume you are referring to the centurion. His kick is absolutely punishable and puts him at risk.
and his jab is too. The only time his jab is guaranteed is after a pin. The jab he can do off block can be dodged And if you have a dodge type attack punished.

I don't know how to make it more understandable. You were put into out of stamina because you either over extended. Or you over extended and got punished. So OOS is what you have to deal with. Being able to escape OOS with a simple move devalues OOS entirely.

Being out of stamina on the PTS was no where near a death sentence. If you played it yourself or even watched a good bit of footage you'd know this to be true.
I play on console. I never struggle to dodge unless i'm attempting a deflect. and frame rate is a crutch argument. The only 2 people I struggle reacting to with are valk and pk's lights. and that's less of a frame rate issue and more of a response issue due to input delay. I switched over to a monitor that had a better response time than my tv (which was 25 going to a monitor that was 5)
for a few hours and managed to both block and parry both a LOT more.

Camemberto
08-04-2017, 10:36 AM
By punching I assume you are referring to the centurion. His kick is absolutely punishable and puts him at risk.
and his jab is too. The only time his jab is guaranteed is after a pin. The jab he can do off block can be dodged And if you have a dodge type attack punished.

I don't know how to make it more understandable. You were put into out of stamina because you either over extended. Or you over extended and got punished. So OOS is what you have to deal with. Being able to escape OOS with a simple move devalues OOS entirely..

By punching I mean generally attack, but I like the fact, you brought up the centurion. Yes, his kick is punishable for very skilled players, but missing the punish is WAY too brutally lethal. Risk/Reward on his moves is WAY off. Don't get me started on the jab. It has like 3 different timings, so dodging or parrying is nightmarish.

Or you got hit by a cent and lose 3/4 of stamina because the developers hate nonpaying "customers".

How is parrying (=just blocking + return to NEUTRAL STATE) escaping OOS?

You know exactly that the cent will be even more cancerous, but why should you care?

Knight_Raime
08-04-2017, 12:12 PM
By punching I mean generally attack, but I like the fact, you brought up the centurion. Yes, his kick is punishable for very skilled players, but missing the punish is WAY too brutally lethal. Risk/Reward on his moves is WAY off. Don't get me started on the jab. It has like 3 different timings, so dodging or parrying is nightmarish.

Or you got hit by a cent and lose 3/4 of stamina because the developers hate nonpaying "customers".

How is parrying (=just blocking + return to NEUTRAL STATE) escaping OOS?

You know exactly that the cent will be even more cancerous, but why should you care?

Oh my bad.

To answer your original question that I read wrong...I believe I already pointed this out. If you attempt to attack on ptr while OOS and you get parried the punish from that is barely anything. and they physically can't keep you in OOS due to stam damage attacks not taking away your stamina while OOS. You're free to sit there and block whatever they throw at you for pretty minimal chip damage for the 3-5 seconds you're in OOS. essentially it's balanced that you can't do much while OOS by the fact that the opponent isn't going to be able to do anything massive to you while OOS.

The kick is punishable for average players. it's almost as slow as nobushi's kick and you gain only a light off of a landed kick. which doesn't lead into anything really for the centurion. So at worse you take a light and some minor damage.

No they are not. The only thing that even fits that is his light parry punish. Which I both agreed with and wanted gone. and with the ptr changes it should be. The jab does not have 3 different timings. It's true that you can throw a none charged jab, a slightly charged jab. and a fully charged jab. But the fully charged jab is literally never used outside of when it will actually land. the uncharged jab only gets you a light. and in literally any instance that you would be able to throw it you can easily dodge to the side to avoid it. and the slight charge literally does nothing. you use the same timing to dodge it as the uncharged. nor does that slightly charged jab literally do anything.

It's very similar to how his charging heavy works. Yes. technically there are 4 seperate instances of his charge heavy. But the uncharged and the fully charged are timings that are brain dead easy to counter. the partial charge has the same timing as his hard feint. and is close enough to the none charged jab that the parry timing on it is practically the same. the half charge is really the only one that takes some getting used to timing wise.

The attitude of this reply along with one or 2 others in this thread makes me no longer wish to reply to you.
it was nice having that decent back and forth in the beginning about what parrying should give. But at this point you're just being rude for no reason.
So. goodbye.