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We.the.North
07-29-2017, 12:54 AM
Can someone explain to me why Shinobi health pool is that low ?? He has inferior damage on his attack and in this defensive meta ... who cares about mobility ??

So ... why is his health pool so low ??

bmason1000
07-29-2017, 12:56 AM
Because if played correctly he's literally untouchable. That mobility is a big key to that. While his individual attacks might not do massive damage, his combos are long and very very fast. It's intended as a very high risk character.

UbiNoty
07-29-2017, 01:06 AM
If we see that Shinobi ever seriously falls to such a point where he is seriously underpowered, we're more than willing to look at things like his health pool.
But at the end of the day, he's an assassin. The def meta changes should also mean that his mobility will matter even more in the coming days.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 01:16 AM
Can someone explain to me why Shinobi health pool is that low ?? He has inferior damage on his attack and in this defensive meta ... who cares about mobility ??

So ... why is his health pool so low ??

Inferior damage how? Has a 38 damage heavy and a 22 damage light, a 50 damage light parry punish, and a 50 damage deflect. He can maybe use help in some areas but his damage isn't one of them. He has the highest gb damage conversion, the highest deflect, second best damage light only beaten by orochis top, and the second highest light parry damage only beaten by centurions ridiculous light parry punish.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 01:23 AM
Inferior damage how? Has a 38 damage heavy and a 22 damage light, a 50 damage light parry punish, and a 50 damage deflect. He can maybe use help in some areas but his damage isn't one of them. He has the highest gb damage conversion, the highest deflect, second best damage light only beaten by orochis top, and the second highest light parry damage only beaten by centurions ridiculous light parry punish.

Exactly this. I have seen people complaining he is not viable in 4v4 since the day he came out (and one of those people, when I said this is how you use assassins, I have played them since launch, as she said it was her first assassin, told me what I think isn't relevant because armour piercing :rolleyes:) but he has plenty of damage and he has plenty of options to cause it whether close or from range. If people don't watch their backs and go charging into a fight, then yes they are going to get punished for it, you need to play smarter when you are playing with that health pool, but that is one of the reasons he is enjoyable to play. People need to get over this honour kick and start playing him like an assassin.

SerArthur-Dayne
07-29-2017, 02:31 AM
Instead of health, why not just buff his skill based attributes.

Like the way warden gets a special party when parrying top attacks, why not give shinobi a special deflect like; deflect damage is tripled when deflecting targets you are not locked onto. ( wouldn't mess up 1v1 balance but would get players to think before just hammering him into the earth like a fence post.

Also give his slinging front flip and backflip animations invincibility frames.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 02:37 AM
Instead of health, why not just buff his skill based attributes.

Like the way warden gets a special party when parrying top attacks, why not give shinobi a special deflect like; deflect damage is tripled when deflecting targets you are not locked onto. ( wouldn't mess up 1v1 balance but would get players to think before just hammering him into the earth like a fence post.

Also give his slinging front flip and backflip animations invincibility frames.

Or as I said in the other one, you could get off your honour must not gank kick and use an assassin with range like an assassin with range. If players are hammering you like a fence post, that is entirely because you are in their range and in their view when you don't have to be. People are complaining that the only way to use an assassin is pretty much like an assassin where any other game without honour in the title that would be considered good play.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 02:41 AM
Instead of health, why not just buff his skill based attributes.

Like the way warden gets a special party when parrying top attacks, why not give shinobi a special deflect like; deflect damage is tripled when deflecting targets you are not locked onto. ( wouldn't mess up 1v1 balance but would get players to think before just hammering him into the earth like a fence post.

Also give his slinging front flip and backflip animations invincibility frames.

So instead of his deflect doing 50 damage you want it to do 150? Lol no that's ridiculous. Not sure why his front flip would need invincibility frames since it can only be activated after a ranged attack, no one can even attack you fast enough in the time they can recover from the block stun. By the time you are in their face they have to make the decision to either dodge the kick or wait to block an attack.
As for the back flip it already makes him incredible safe to throw out attacks it doesn't need Iframes on top of it.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 02:43 AM
So instead of his deflect doing 50 damage you want it to do 150? Lol no that's ridiculous. Not sure why his front flip would need invincibility frames since it can only be activated after a ranged attack, no one can even attack you fast enough in the time they can recover from the block stun. By the time you are in their face they have to make the decision to either dodge the kick or wait to block an attack.
As for the back flip it already makes him incredible safe to throw out attacks it doesn't need Iframes on top of it.

Completely agree with this and shinobi is one of the characters I use most frequently, if I didn't like the peacekeeper as much as I do I'd have had a new main in him the way he is.

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 02:43 AM
It's really a joke that people can possibly complain about either Shinobi or Cent being underpowered in anyway. They are gamebreaking if played correctly. Period.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 02:46 AM
Completely agree with this and shinobi is one of the characters I use most frequently, if I didn't like the peacekeeper as much as I do I'd have had a new main in him the way he is.

I think people are just comparing him to where he was and forget that he has far more tools than just the kick which is still very effective with quad dash and dashing back then dashing forward. Enb is a great shinobi and he showcases that he's still a force to be reckon with.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 02:51 AM
I think people are just comparing him to where he was and forget that he has far more tools than just the kick which is still very effective with quad dash and dashing back then dashing forward. Enb is a great shinobi and he showcases that he's still a force to be reckon with.

Honestly I called that this would happen before he came out, I'd been arguing with orochi mains who refuse to use anything but safe moves (on a counter attacker with heavy punishes no less) and I said if these people get their hands on shinobi they are going to call for buffs within five minutes.

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 02:52 AM
A Shinobi can still solidly support a team fight without ever even being in danger himself. He has no health because he never needs to be in range of taking damage and can just run if someone tries to target him... Seriously, if you want to double my Valk's spear length and take one of my health bars in exchange, please do.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 02:55 AM
A Shinobi can still solidly support a team fight without ever even being in danger himself. He has no health because he never needs to be in range of taking damage and can just run if someone tries to target him... Seriously, if you want to double my Valk's spear length and take one of my health bars in exchange, please do.

And that is one of the main problems, people consider that dishonourable, because they want fair 1v1s in a 4v4 game complete with emoting before and they are complaining because they can't force that style on him. I got wow spammed by a raider, who had charged me from the side earlier in the fight, in dominion because I attacked him when he was doing his slit throat emote.Sorry but if someone is motioning that he is going to kill me I am going to punch him in the face >.>

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 03:05 AM
And that is one of the main problems, peoples consider that dishonourable, because they want fair 1v1s in a 4v4 game complete with emoting before and they are complaining because theyb can't force that style on him. I got wow spammed by a raider, who had charged me from the side earlier in the fight, in dominion because I attacked him when he was doing his slit throat emote.Sorry but if someone is motioning that he is going to kill me I am going to punch him in the face >.>

Exactly this. I mean, I WILL 1v1 people in a dominion match. I actually prefer it... But I also recognize that it's a team game and expecting fair fights is not reasonable and won't win games. The only thing that really makes me butthurt is having 3-4 opponents chase me around the map while they all REFUSE to fight 1v1. That just seems pathetic. But honestly that's just how it is. And this isn't related but the people that wow spam me the most and message me after the game accusing me of "unfair" are usually the ones that chased me across the map in their herd while refusing fair fights lol.

P.S. Just remembered one time that a guy who was in one of those chase-across-map herds messaged me after the game to tell me I was **** for running away from the 4v1 lmao. How thick can you get?

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 03:18 AM
Exactly this. I mean, I WILL 1v1 people in a dominion match. I actually prefer it... But I also recognize that it's a team game and expecting fair fights is not reasonable and won't win games. The only thing that really makes me butthurt is having 3-4 opponents chase me around the map while they all REFUSE to fight 1v1. That just seems pathetic. But honestly that's just how it is. And this isn't related but the people that wow spam me the most and message me after the game accusing me of "unfair" are usually the ones that chased me across the map in their herd while refusing fair fights lol.

P.S. Just remembered one time that a guy who was in one of those chase-across-map herds messaged me after the game to tell me I was **** for running away from the 4v1 lmao. How thick can you get?

That's happened to me a few times, I always consider it that while they are chasing me, there's two other zones my team should be worried about. One of my best games as peacekeeper (a little tankier, wouldn't recommend this with shinobi but again different characters different styles) my best play caused a 400 point swing in my team's favour because three of the other team spent a minute and a half trying to kill me while I was dodging and revenging in their only held zone. Did nothing for my score at the end of the game other than add a death but it won my team the match.I always wonder if their fourth teammate got killed by two of mine any time, saw what was happening on their cam while waiting to respawn and wondered what the hell was going on. I know he was in solider zone briefly, their score went up before suddenly stopping. I could have run away before being killed but I wanted every second of their score not moving up I could get.

BudgetParrot118
07-29-2017, 03:33 AM
I'm pretty sure you all can agree with me and if you don't then you're f****** lying you have that fight where your beat the person in their main and then the next round comes up and you're given an option for rematching you say hey I want to fight the guy again maybe it was an off round and then lo and behold surprised who the f*** does he pick Centurion.

If he isn't overpowered I do have to ask this f****** question how come everybody does this exact same thing if they f****** lose.

As well here's another idea. I got a question if I find and ban somebody on Xbox online does that retort back over to for honor. I wouldn't have to worry about dealing with their ****y moves in ****y plots because they're so concerned about winning that you know they'll do anything even suck a donkey ****.

They are the win*****s of for honor.

See I'm more concerned about getting better at playing the game and having personal growth with my character. So when I run across someone of that caliber obviously there's going to be friction and I really don't want to resort to cussing them out. I just much rather ban them and not ever get put in the match with them that way if enough people do this they'll get put with other s***** players and they'll have to deal with the f****** hole they put themselves in.

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 03:34 AM
That's happened to me a few times, I always consider it that while they are chasing me, there's two other zones my team should be worried about. One of my best games as peacekeeper (a little tankier, wouldn't recommend this with shinobi but again different characters different styles) my best play caused a 400 point swing in my team's favour because three of the other team spent a minute and a half trying to kill me while I was dodging and revenging in their only held zone. Did nothing for my score at the end of the game other than add a death but it won my team the match.I always wonder if their fourth teammate got killed by two of mine any time, saw what was happening on their cam while waiting to respawn and wondered what the hell was going on. I know he was in solider zone briefly, their score went up before suddenly stopping. I could have run away before being killed but I wanted every second of their score not moving up I could get.

That's a fair point. It's definitely detrimental for them to waste their resources by focusing on one person at the expense of holding zones... But I'm part dirtbag myself and mostly just like seeing many kills and few deaths on my scoreboard ;)

SikanderAzam
07-29-2017, 03:36 AM
I'm pretty sure you all can agree with me and if you don't then you're f****** lying you have that fight where your beat the person in their main and then the next round comes up and you're given an option for rematching you say hey I want to fight the guy again maybe it was an off round and then lo and behold surprised who the f*** does he pick Centurion.

If he isn't overpowered I do have to ask this f****** question how come everybody does this exact same thing if they f****** lose.

As well here's another idea. I got a question if I find and ban somebody on Xbox online does that retort back over to for honor. I wouldn't have to worry about dealing with their ****y moves in ****y plots because they're so concerned about winning that you know they'll do anything even suck a donkey ****.

They are the win*****s of for honor.

See I'm more concerned about getting better at playing the game and having personal growth with my character. So when I run across someone of that caliber obviously there's going to be friction and I really don't want to resort to cussing them out. I just much rather ban them and not ever get put in the match with them that way if enough people do this they'll get put with other s***** players and they'll have to deal with the f****** hole they put themselves in.

Since the games are "official" and "ranked" in some sense, you can't filter out who you don't want to play with. Otherwise I'd just block all the centurions in my region and have a 100% winrate lol.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 03:48 AM
I'm pretty sure you all can agree with me and if you don't then you're f****** lying you have that fight where your beat the person in their main and then the next round comes up and you're given an option for rematching you say hey I want to fight the guy again maybe it was an off round and then lo and behold surprised who the f*** does he pick Centurion.

If he isn't overpowered I do have to ask this f****** question how come everybody does this exact same thing if they f****** lose.

As well here's another idea. I got a question if I find and ban somebody on Xbox online does that retort back over to for honor. I wouldn't have to worry about dealing with their ****y moves in ****y plots because they're so concerned about winning that you know they'll do anything even suck a donkey ****.

They are the win*****s of for honor.

See I'm more concerned about getting better at playing the game and having personal growth with my character. So when I run across someone of that caliber obviously there's going to be friction and I really don't want to resort to cussing them out. I just much rather ban them and not ever get put in the match with them that way if enough people do this they'll get put with other s***** players and they'll have to deal with the f****** hole they put themselves in.


And another thing is anyone find that they have winning streaks and then losing streaks no matter what you do you just can't get out of the losing streak.

Example this morning controls are very responsive I was beating teams of four that we're ganking me on multiple occasions different players right now I have a situation where I'm getting paired with opponent players that have a green bar but if you go during the match will switch back to red and the other issue is they always somehow best me the controls aren't responsive as well the other funny thing that I find highly ironic is the option where players coincidentally on my team continually different matches always get kicked and then it doesn't fill our missing slots, and if a player leaves during around on my opponents team you can bet sure as hell that they're going to get their slot field in it does just as sure as s*** there slot gets filled mine stay empty and it's A2 V4. And again like I said I just find it highly ironic of that this has happened since I've started playing over months ago.

And just as a scientific approach I go to practice and pick the bot level 3 which is Valkyrie and I will say she's not easy she spams the s*** out of a lot of her moves to the point if you're play it right she'll just exhaust yourself but I don't I actually go head-to-head against there and the controls are really responsive with her I'm able to deflect her f****** lights so I know it's not me.

And again opponents roster only filling is 100% of the time happening during these situations of losing streaks, and I find it ironic that again in this situation of filling and putting in players mid match we are left with skin and bones while they get all the players and we get ganked and I get murdered over and over and over and some f***** up Twilight Zone scenario.


And I'm not saying there's a link but another funny thing is that every time this s*** happens the players are always doing dirty s*** to win and I know you guys have met people that just genuinely want to play and verse you when I want to see who does better you run across those run over cross them a lot more and more and more of those people are existing but when I do hit s***** players that have other tactics it's always during these issues and that's another highly f****** big coincidental situation

How in gods name does this have anything to do with shinobi and his health pool?

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 03:51 AM
How in gods name does this have anything to do with shinobi and his health pool?

I read through all that wondering the same thing, hell if I know.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 03:55 AM
I read through all that wondering the same thing, hell if I know.

Its kinda hilarious, just not sure where it's coming from. It's the ramblings of a mad man.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 04:30 AM
Its kinda hilarious, just not sure where it's coming from. It's the ramblings of a mad man.

Kind of came out of nowhere, yeah.

BudgetParrot118
07-29-2017, 01:01 PM
My bad? I'm sorry. In my defense I was sick with 102 fever at the time. Not really in my right mind.

I just was sick af. To make things worse the clown **** was going on in for honor. For half the day. Sick, irritated. Not a good combo...

Now to retort with an on topic sentence.

I honestly think his health pool is fine considering how untouchable he is if played right.

BudgetParrot118
07-29-2017, 01:09 PM
Its kinda hilarious, just not sure where it's coming from. It's the ramblings of a mad man.

Lol so true! This another little personal advice I needed to start doing is I need to stop using the talk-to-text feature.

That makes the crazy factor go up X10.

SenBotsu893
07-29-2017, 01:37 PM
yes he needs more HP.

as of now he is just a weak version of PK. less hp less damage.
and ALL of his ranges attacks are a deathsentence for himself.

and his double dodge does have some strange dodge properties because usually if you simply hit into his smoke puff you get him.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 02:15 PM
yes he needs more HP.

as of now he is just a weak version of PK. less hp less damage.
and ALL of his ranges attacks are a deathsentence for himself.

and his double dodge does have some strange dodge properties because usually if you simply hit into his smoke puff you get him.

Not really less damage, it's pretty comparable. He's higher in pretty much everything (lights, gb follow ups, light parry follow ups, heavy parry follow ups, and deflect). She has raw heavies, zone, and wallstun.

His range attacks are a death sentence if you let them be, you should only be doing them if you are out of range to be punished or on an enemies recovery frames so they can't cgb or parry.

You'll get hit if you dodge too early or too late, it's no different than any other dodge.

SenBotsu893
07-29-2017, 02:28 PM
Not really less damage, it's pretty comparable. He's higher in pretty much everything (lights, gb follow ups, light parry follow ups, heavy parry follow ups, and deflect). She has raw heavies, zone, and wallstun.
.

no not really
17/15 peacekeeper lights vs 14/8 shinobi lights or 14/14 blockable lights. furthermore pk can just go on with r1 seamlessly while with shinobi you usally have that pause after the combo or do the backflip wich gives the oponent time to breath. also her tribble stab after gb outdamages shinobis 30 damage heavy, even more so with the wallstun you mentioned.

light parry yes good damage with guranteed sickle rain.

but the deflect is not worth the risk. deflecting someone like a lawbringer or raider leaves them still with way more hp than the shinobi has and if he eats a single heavy hes down to half his HP.
even more risky on console because of the fps disadvantage

vgrimr_J
07-29-2017, 02:29 PM
just saying centurion stam pool cough cough

BudgetParrot118
07-29-2017, 03:39 PM
Isn't,he classified as hard to play as.

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 03:41 PM
no not really
17/15 peacekeeper lights vs 14/8 shinobi lights or 14/14 blockable lights. furthermore pk can just go on with r1 seamlessly while with shinobi you usally have that pause after the combo or do the backflip wich gives the oponent time to breath. also her tribble stab after gb outdamages shinobis 30 damage heavy, even more so with the wallstun you mentioned.

light parry yes good damage with guranteed sickle rain.

but the deflect is not worth the risk. deflecting someone like a lawbringer or raider leaves them still with way more hp than the shinobi has and if he eats a single heavy hes down to half his HP.
even more risky on console because of the fps disadvantage

Yes but your forgetting that his second light from the same direction is guaranteed so that's 22 damage. When talking about orochis top light damage we always count the second hit, it's no different with shin. Her triple stab is 32 damage still lower than his heavy into guaranteed light of 38, the Orochi rule applies here as well. Deflect is not worth it in what way? Raiders and lawbringer lights are 15 damage, if you deflect 3 of his lights he's dead. If you miss 3 you still have half your health. Hell You can miss 5/8 deflect attempts and still win. Console or not, getting 3/8 deflects on a 600ms attack is more than acheiveable.

Edit: just reread where you included the 8 guaranteed. 22 guaranteed damage on 1 light is far better than doing 17 damage and having a chance at hitting with another light. Your opponent knows it's coming and at this point in the game even 500ms attacks are blocked/parried if they are in a chain on console.

Alustar.
07-29-2017, 03:48 PM
As a person who plays assassin classes primarily, I find shinobi personally lacking, not because of his lack of viability, but simply cause at this point I prefer my PK. I'm used to it. I'm sure with time I could learn and adapt to the Shinobi, but he just doesn't click with me. Me being decent with PK but sucking with Shinobi doesn't mean that Shinobi is underperforming. It means that -I-a underperforming. Plus I have a heavy inclination for getting into 2/3v1 situations cause I'm a masochist like that. (And also because when I come out the victor it's a sick feeling!) so rather than complain that I'm failing to Shin properly I kept to my strengths in the PK

Antonioj26
07-29-2017, 04:02 PM
As a person who plays assassin classes primarily, I find shinobi personally lacking, not because of his lack of viability, but simply cause at this point I prefer my PK. I'm used to it. I'm sure with time I could learn and adapt to the Shinobi, but he just doesn't click with me. Me being decent with PK but sucking with Shinobi doesn't mean that Shinobi is underperforming. It means that -I-a underperforming. Plus I have a heavy inclination for getting into 2/3v1 situations cause I'm a masochist like that. (And also because when I come out the victor it's a sick feeling!) so rather than complain that I'm failing to Shin properly I kept to my strengths in the PK

PK is definitely the stronger of the two overall, she has been from the very beginning one of the best only second to warlord. I just don't think it's fair to call shin a weaker pk since they are very different in the way they play. Shin plays with a high risk high reward spacing style of gameplay whereas pk has relatively safe attacks and is more in your face. The same arguments for why shin was weak before the nerfs are still there and to anyone who kept up with high level play it was obvious that his low health pool and crappy guard was the tiniest of setbacks for him prenerf. Now that he's nerfed they just throw that on top of there, to them he was always b tier and he's dropped down to the bottom of the barrel because of his kick nerf.

I'll say they went to far with the kick nerf, they just did way too much to it.

1. Increased stam usage
2. Sort of got rid of the 50/50 even though you can still do it with ranged gb
3. Slowed down the side kick (was 400 but now is 600ms, the front kick remains 500ms)
4. Reduced the hyper armor frames.

There might even be one more that's slipping my mind, either way any combination of the two mentioned would have been enough.

CandleInTheDark
07-29-2017, 04:22 PM
As a person who plays assassin classes primarily, I find shinobi personally lacking, not because of his lack of viability, but simply cause at this point I prefer my PK. I'm used to it. I'm sure with time I could learn and adapt to the Shinobi, but he just doesn't click with me. Me being decent with PK but sucking with Shinobi doesn't mean that Shinobi is underperforming. It means that -I-a underperforming. Plus I have a heavy inclination for getting into 2/3v1 situations cause I'm a masochist like that. (And also because when I come out the victor it's a sick feeling!) so rather than complain that I'm failing to Shin properly I kept to my strengths in the PK

Yeah that is the thing, i can 1v3 with my peacekeeper fairly easily, I quite liked that I had to be more discerning about choices I made with the shinobi and I will be getting him into legendary gear once I have it on the peacekeeper, played him a bit recently and he has jumped up the queue of the characters I am using lol. Peacekeeper is still and will always be my main but it is a different challenge and I quite like playing the hit and run style in any case.