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Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 05:28 PM
I have posted several coments on the American Tracers thread but I thought that I would start a new one concerning the same thing but from the perspective of a US Army combat veteran who has spent 12 years with the Ma Deuce. I have trained many soldiers on how to use this weapon and maintain it and of coarse to shoot it. I know what the tracers look like and what kind of damage the different types of bullets do(tracer, Indendiary, AP ect.) I have a picture here of me actually lighting a 50 Cal tracer. I used a torch to get enough heat and a pair a pliers to hold the tracer round with so I wouldn't burn my hand. The bright light that you see IS NOT THE TORCH flame which is not even visible in this picture but that is how bright the 50 Cal tracer burns on a bright sunny day. They are very bright at night, so bright in fact that when you shoot them they actually light up the ground underneath them as they travel downrange! I took it upon myself to use Photoshop and show what the tracers are supposed to look like, quite different than in FB. You notice the long streak of the tracer that is closest. The way that the HUMAN EYE sees them is a long streak when it is close and then turns into just a bright dot when it gets further away. Remember that this is what the HUMAN EYE sees!!! This is the most realistic picture of 50 tracers that you will see. If you look close you will see that I have added the bullets bouncing off the ground which is what really happens espcially with low level strafing runs. The 50 cal tracers do have some smoke to them but not that thick. You can notice it but it is not a lot. When the tracers hit an object or the ground and bounce off they will slow down from the impact and will then leave a thicker trail of smoke. This is the way it is in real life coming from an M2 50 Cal expert.http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/P51_Strafing-zoomed1improved.bmp

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Wed July 14 2004 at 07:56 PM.]http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/50Cal.bmp

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Wed July 14 2004 at 07:57 PM.]

Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 05:28 PM
I have posted several coments on the American Tracers thread but I thought that I would start a new one concerning the same thing but from the perspective of a US Army combat veteran who has spent 12 years with the Ma Deuce. I have trained many soldiers on how to use this weapon and maintain it and of coarse to shoot it. I know what the tracers look like and what kind of damage the different types of bullets do(tracer, Indendiary, AP ect.) I have a picture here of me actually lighting a 50 Cal tracer. I used a torch to get enough heat and a pair a pliers to hold the tracer round with so I wouldn't burn my hand. The bright light that you see IS NOT THE TORCH flame which is not even visible in this picture but that is how bright the 50 Cal tracer burns on a bright sunny day. They are very bright at night, so bright in fact that when you shoot them they actually light up the ground underneath them as they travel downrange! I took it upon myself to use Photoshop and show what the tracers are supposed to look like, quite different than in FB. You notice the long streak of the tracer that is closest. The way that the HUMAN EYE sees them is a long streak when it is close and then turns into just a bright dot when it gets further away. Remember that this is what the HUMAN EYE sees!!! This is the most realistic picture of 50 tracers that you will see. If you look close you will see that I have added the bullets bouncing off the ground which is what really happens espcially with low level strafing runs. The 50 cal tracers do have some smoke to them but not that thick. You can notice it but it is not a lot. When the tracers hit an object or the ground and bounce off they will slow down from the impact and will then leave a thicker trail of smoke. This is the way it is in real life coming from an M2 50 Cal expert.http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/P51_Strafing-zoomed1improved.bmp

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Wed July 14 2004 at 07:56 PM.]http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/50Cal.bmp

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Wed July 14 2004 at 07:57 PM.]

PlaneEater
07-14-2004, 05:34 PM
Looks just like I remember it from McChord AFB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I sure hope they get changed. The little short red 'plasma blasts' now are kind of underwhelming.

Weapon works great now in 2.02, but it could *look* more real.

Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 06:05 PM
Just so you all know that I do know what I am talking about and that I am no joke I thought that I would add this picture of me when I was in the US Army. Here I am about to take my squad on another covert border patrol of Macendonia and Serbia via Blackhawk insertion... It was a blast I guess. I'm glad I did my part for my country...http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/Brad-Small.jpg

VW-IceFire
07-14-2004, 06:24 PM
I think we'll have to wait for the next major engine edition of the series (i.e. Battle of Britain) to have the bouncing tracer/bullets off targets and the ground (which is a fantastic visual) but I'm sure they could brighten up those red tracers. They are all pretty darkly colored. Adding length may be a problem for them too...not sure how they do it in the code.

Of course, all tracers should get the good visual treatment. So I expect that they will be more realistic in BoB and not expecting quite as much out of the current generation.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

TheJoyStick
07-14-2004, 06:27 PM
Damn, Choc.. You look too innocent to be in the army.. That gun, and that face just don't go together =) I suppose an mp5, or a USP would suit you, though.

Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 07:05 PM
MP5 you say? I guess I look innocent and all but it is not in the looks but the skill and experience. If any of my soldiers judged me by the way I looked I would have burned them to the ground...if you know what I mean. Beleive it or not this picture was taken in combat during a "quiet" moment along the Macedonian border on a regular patrol where they could know that we were there but still didn't want them to. Note the dual magazines. The only thing that I did not like about these is that the ammo on the one not inserted could get dirty and possibly cause a jam. You just had to be careful when the *hit hit the fan...http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/Brad-MP5.bmp

Catfish20th
07-14-2004, 08:04 PM
MP5s and scoped M4s. You must have been some kind of SF. My guess is Rangers. If you were, I spent 2.5 years with the 160th SOAR crewing a Little Bird before I got out in Oct. 1990.

WWMaxGunz
07-14-2004, 08:16 PM
Whereas M-16 tracers that hit the ground at night make the craziest random kinda spiral
patterns. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Yeah, you gotta weather that face before you can get near to being be a topkick!


Neal

Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 08:38 PM
I know that I look like a kid in these pictures but I was 30 years old when these were taken. I guess the being in great shape and all and just that kind of life keeps you looking young although I felt that combat made me old real quick. Now I have a lot of joint and back problems. It stinks but I am still glad I did it...Anyway lets try to keep this thread about the 50 Cal tracers. I probably should not have thrown those pictures in there for fear of getting off topic. Anyway for those veterans out there who have actually seen tracers what do you think of my artwork? I think that it looks just like the real thing. Let me know what you all think...How do you like the ricochet effects?http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/P51_Strafing-zoomed1improved.bmp

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Wed July 14 2004 at 07:53 PM.]

Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 08:53 PM
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/P51_Strafing-zoomed1improved.bmp
Here is an improved version to account for the tracer passing behind the prop and also some other minor changes...Again please tell me what you think especially for all of you vets out there who have actually seen tracers with your own eyes...Also the NightStalkers have the best pilots in the world. I'm glad we're on the same side. You guys are awesome... I was never worried when you guys were at the helm...

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Wed July 14 2004 at 08:40 PM.]

PraetorHonoris
07-14-2004, 08:57 PM
This artwork looks good! I immediatly had the good old MG3 (MG42) in mind, when I missed the targets...
One thing, the tracers we use in the Luftwaffe (every caliber) don't produce that much smoke, but maybe you are using different ammo.

BTW: If you think, you look like a child in your uniform, you should see me!
http://img6.exs.cx/img6/8900/Bild36.jpg


http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7306/Aermelband.jpg
Jagdgeschwader 71 "Richthofen"


http://smilies.cw08.calibra-web.de/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_063.gif http://smilies.cw08.calibra-web.de/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_099.gif http://smilies.cw08.calibra-web.de/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_071.gif
Oleg Maddox Ready Room in Action

Choctaw111
07-14-2004, 09:07 PM
You are right PraetorHonoris. The tracers that we(NATO) use today does not produce that much smoke at all. Both the Luftwaffe and US now use the same ammo in your MG3 and our M240, the 7.62 by 51 NATO round. I have been to Germany a couple times and I got your Shutzenschnur(Silber)and your MG3 ROCKS!!!!! I wish the US had good stuff like that. I was very impressed with the equipment you have in Germany. But take a look at the old gun cam footage and you will see smoke because the tracer did not burn as "clean" I guess is the best way to put it and there was a faint smoke trail for the 50 Cal.

PraetorHonoris
07-14-2004, 09:38 PM
Unfortunatly our equipment in general is not as impressiv as our infantry weapons, G36 and MG3, are. Especially our planes are very old...

Nonetheless, after watching some footage again (I own a DVD with gun cam films only), I think you are right. Some smoke should be added and the brightness of the tracers increased.

...And the muzzle flash is still ridiculous.


http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7306/Aermelband.jpg
Jagdgeschwader 71 "Richthofen"


http://smilies.cw08.calibra-web.de/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_063.gif http://smilies.cw08.calibra-web.de/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_099.gif http://smilies.cw08.calibra-web.de/html/images/smilies/armee/wos_armee_071.gif
Oleg Maddox Ready Room in Action

WB_Outlaw
07-14-2004, 09:38 PM
Off Topic but I hate to miss a chance to thank those in uniform...

Thanks guys, your efforts are appreciated by those in the know.

-Outlaw.

LuftLuver
07-15-2004, 01:30 AM
Fire your M2's and then fire the I~16 gunz. The m2 tracers dissipate just a few meters from your nose. I~16 tracers travel out to a much further distance.

US 5o calibre tracers are wrong, be sure.

β"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Άβ"Ά
"All your bases are belong to us."

Choctaw111
07-15-2004, 08:59 AM
Here is another revision. You can certainly notice the reduced muzzle flashes! But also notice the smoke trail on the far left. As you can see it is not perfectly straight. You can see that it bends just a little bit. This happens due to wind and turbulence. The longer the smoke has been there the more it will be affected by this until the smoke gradually dissipates completely. I accidentally gave this picture the same name as the others so you will not be able to compare I think. But anyway it is a good affect. Also notice that the dirt kicked up by the other bullets hitting is lit up by the light from the tracer that is laying there on the ground which happens a lot also. Sometimes they will hit the ground and just lay there on the ground and burn out. This is especially noticeable at night. I will be working on a night picture shortly and will post it soon...http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/P51_Strafing-zoomed1improved1.bmp

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Thu July 15 2004 at 10:51 AM.]

Bob the Pilot
07-15-2004, 09:27 AM
send it to oleg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Choctaw111
07-15-2004, 11:53 AM
I would love to send this to Oleg. How do you do this. I did not think that you could contract him directly rather he would check the forums and see what is going on when he has time...which is probably very rarely since he is so busy with Pacific Fighters...

p1ngu666
07-15-2004, 12:31 PM
o nice edits there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

Hoarmurath
07-15-2004, 12:36 PM
usual contact email is in the first post of the sticky concerning the bug reports... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

Choctaw111
07-15-2004, 02:51 PM
Here is the night pic I just did. I was in a hurry so I will improve on it later. Anyway you can see how much more visible these tracers are compared to what we have now. Again this IS THE WAY THEY LOOK for the 50 Cal as well as all different types of tracer with the exception of different colors. It does not matter what type of camera you use to take pictures of tracers because all types of cameras will show something different. THIS IS WHAT THE HUMAN EYE SEES. This is the most realistic I can make from all of the experience that I have had in the military...PLease note that the trees on either side of the line of fire are highlighted by the tracer passing between them. This is something else that really happens. As I have said before, The 50 Cal tracers are very bright and they light up the ground underneath them as they travel downrange and also things that they pass by such as trees or buildings or people( at night this is noticeable but not in the day)...This picture turned out crappy for this forum but if anyone wants a full size copy just let me know...http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v343/PublicPhotoAccount2/P51-strafing-at-night-mod1.bmp

Monty_Thrud
07-15-2004, 04:00 PM
Personally i would prefer it left as is, but if you feel its historically correct then so be it...but!...from my own experience of being shot down by US planes(only when i fly for the dark side to even up teams online), their advantage is not being able to see tracers in a surprise attack http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

Choctaw111
07-15-2004, 04:56 PM
That is where the pilot should be able to choose his ammo loadout to place the tracers in as many or few ammo belts as he wishes and choose how many tracers go in the belt and where they are placed in the belt. It adds some more realism and accuracy in the sim. If you want to load a lot of tracers in your belt or belts you will lose the element of surprise if you had one. I would like to put tracers in only one belt(especially for American planes which have many guns of the same type firing on the same trigger) and place the tracers every 10 rounds or so, maybe 20 depending and then put a bunch in a row near the end of the belts so that I would know I was out of ammo. But then you say that the enemy will see all of those tracers strung together and he will know that your almost out of ammo but then you think that if you put a bunch of tracers together in the middle of your belt the enemy will think that your are almost out of ammo which is what you want him to think but you really have lots of ammo left. That is where your strategy comes into play. Put the tracers where you want them in your belt or belts and how good or bad you do will depend on your strategy which will add just one more realistic effect in this already outstanding sim...

[This message was edited by Choctaw111 on Thu July 15 2004 at 06:14 PM.]

Choctaw111
07-16-2004, 12:19 PM
I also noticed that when you shoot at the ground with the 50s You see the puffs of dirt kicked up by the bullets which is great but if you notice the dirt kicked up by the tracer bullets are a different color. A tracer bullet hitting the dirt will not change the dirt color to a lighter color. I am glad to see the attention to detail but the think that extra work went into this to make the puffs of dirt different for tracers is great if that is they way it really was which it was not. Please change the dirt puffs back to all the same color please. As I mentioned before if a tracer hit the ground and just kind of sat there in the surface while it burned out it would illuminate the area around it. That effect is only noticeable when it is darker outside though. I would love to be a consultant for any of his further sims in this area. I know that the tracers are only a small part of the sim but to make them relistic is like immersing the pilot even further into the sim...