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View Full Version : So much emoting and reacting right now



CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 08:18 PM
I think a lot of us were waiting for the defensive meta stuff to come out and there are a few things I think people could do with bearing in mind.

First and foremost this is a test, it isn't like the last one where the patch had gone off to certification and the raider thing was still in it, they made it clear on the Den that none of this is final, if any of this absolutely trashes combat, then they won't keep it. They want data, they want feedback, none of this is set to go live yet.

More stamina on parry, I kind of agree, that is going to hurt some people, at the same time you need to balance things like no longer having a guaranteed guardbreak (which I am pleased they have done away with mind), the thing is they also made it riskier to parry, some longer attacks you can miss your parry window and still block, can't do that no more, you need to be getting your parry timing on point. Add in the fact that there is chip damage now and they can't just block either so they are going to need to take that risk. So parry is riskier, there is more pressure and it does not have as much reward in terms of damage.

Speaking of parry, out of stamina mode. They addressed the exact things that made it a no risk state to go into. You know what happens when I go into out of stamina? I dodge, if someone is persistent enough to catch up with me, I parry, I am out of it in a few seconds, in its current state out of stamina just means I better not be guardbroken and I shouldn't attack. The fact that blocking (which means chip damage) and dodging pauses regen means you need to be more aware of your stamina in the first place and that is where the real skill lies.

But again all of these are tests, so those on pc honestly, do us all a favour, go into it with an open mind, don't look to prove one point or another and if something is going to have a huge impact, then yeah let the devs know, but in my own view, this sounds like it will be a huge improvement.

Oupyz
07-20-2017, 08:25 PM
that's rare but i do agree with you , i'm waiting to fire my pts

great changes coming.

Netcode_err_404
07-20-2017, 08:27 PM
I think a lot of us were waiting for the defensive meta stuff to come out and there are a few things I think people could do with bearing in mind.

First and foremost this is a test, it isn't like the last one where the patch had gone off to certification and the raider thing was still in it, they made it clear on the Den that none of this is final, if any of this absolutely trashes combat, then they won't keep it. They want data, they want feedback, none of this is set to go live yet.

More stamina on parry, I kind of agree, that is going to hurt some people, at the same time you need to balance things like no longer having a guaranteed guardbreak (which I am pleased they have done away with mind), the thing is they also made it riskier to parry, some longer attacks you can miss your parry window and still block, can't do that no more, you need to be getting your parry timing on point. Add in the fact that there is chip damage now and they can't just block either so they are going to need to take that risk. So parry is riskier, there is more pressure and it does not have as much reward in terms of damage.

Speaking of parry, out of stamina mode. They addressed the exact things that made it a no risk state to go into. You know what happens when I go into out of stamina? I dodge, if someone is persistent enough to catch up with me, I parry, I am out of it in a few seconds, in its current state out of stamina just means I better not be guardbroken and I shouldn't attack. The fact that blocking (which means chip damage) and dodging pauses regen means you need to be more aware of your stamina in the first place and that is where the real skill lies.

But again all of these are tests, so those on pc honestly, do us all a favour, go into it with an open mind, don't look to prove one point or another and if something is going to have a huge impact, then yeah let the devs know, but in my own view, this sounds like it will be a huge improvement.



Most of the people that already yell and scream are probably turtle lord that cannot accept the nerf. I will test it, and will probably share what I think, but i surely can say, lot of classes will get punished so hard with these changes.

Antonioj26
07-20-2017, 08:29 PM
I have a few things I'm iffy about but overall I'm optimistic and will reserve judgements until I've played with the new changes for awhile. So far I'm just trying to figure out match ups in my head and how they will play out from now on since I use just about everyone. The game has essentially been completely revamped and strategies along with it.

C00tBAjenkins
07-20-2017, 08:40 PM
Most of the people that already yell and scream are probably turtle lord that cannot accept the nerf. I will test it, and will probably share what I think, but i surely can say, lot of classes will get punished so hard with these changes.
Could be why they are considering balance changes after a final DM patch. This might actually make me want to play duel again.

All in all its on the right track. DM changes have been asked for end of season 1 and most of season 2. To actually get a look at it is great. The "soon" is next week.

Gray360UK
07-20-2017, 08:48 PM
The fact that blocking (which means chip damage) and dodging pauses regen means you need to be more aware of your stamina in the first place and that is where the real skill lies.


If this was Season 1 I'd agree with you completely, but with Centurion and Shinobi both specializing in putting you out of Stamina as soon as you make the slightest mistake, having good Stamina management skills is not the issue.

Okay maybe in Season 1 it was too easy to dodge around until your Stamina returned (especially on Peacekeeper). However this is Season 2 and being out of Stamina because you are making Stamina management mistakes is now the least likely cause of that state.

Once OOS, you won't be able to block or dodge unless you want to stay out of Stamina, and even if you do manage a block you'll take chip damage. No OOS Parry means that's not an option either.

What are we actually supposed to do to regain Stamina when the person who made us lose it is right in front of us trying to stab us in the face? Say 'could you hold on a second while I get my Stamina back?'

Dodging is still a skill, and I think it's sad to see it treated as something you should be punished for being good at. I win most of my fights by having good dodge timing.

I'm going to just run away ;)

Still, we shall see if it survives the test and makes it into final release. I kinda hope not.

CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 08:52 PM
If this was Season 1 I'd agree with you completely, but with Centurion and Shinobi both specializing in putting you out of Stamina as soon as you make the slightest mistake, this sounds like it's potentially going to be a disaster.

Okay maybe in Season 1 it was too easy to dodge around until your Stamina returned (especially on Peacekeeper). Dodging is still a skill though, and I think it's sad to see it treated as something you should be punished for being good at. I win most of my fights by having good dodge timing.

However this is Season 2 and being out of Stamina because you are making Stamina management mistakes is the now the unlikeliest cause of that state. You won't be able to block or dodge unless you want to stay out of Stamina, and even if you do manage a block you'll take chip damage. No OOS Parry means that's not an option either.

I'm going to just run away ;)

Still, we shall see if it survives the test and makes it into final release. I kinda hope not.

Yeah shinobi and centurion might need looking at with that, especially centurion and that is the general state all around. I think dodging will still be viable, it is the path I would be taking with the assassins in any case.

Won't be able to run away in duel if they bring over the anti runaway mechanic lol >.>

Gray360UK
07-20-2017, 08:59 PM
Yeah shinobi and centurion might need looking at with that, especially centurion and that is the general state all around. I think dodging will still be viable because they haven't slowed that down just regen during it, it is the path I would be taking with the assassins in any case.

Won't be able to run away in duel if they bring over the anti runaway mechanic lol >.>

So basically if you get knocked into OOS state by a Centurion you are staying that way unless he lets you stand still and regen your Stamina? That's gonna work ;) (I edited my post about a gazillion times by the way, so the version you replied to is slightly different to the one you replied to, nothing major).

CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 09:03 PM
So basically if you get knocked into OOS state by a Centurion you are staying that way unless he lets you stand still and regen your Stamina? That's gonna work ;) (I edited my post about a gazillion times by the way, so the version you replied to is slightly different to the one you replied to, nothing major).

Lol I like that question >.> It sounds like it is only on the dodge itself or the instant of contact on the block, Roman said that in the space of a full chain, you are still regaining stamina and made the point that anyone attacking you is also using stamina and has only so much leeway. They threw us a bone as well that the stam drain attacks don't lower it any more, I've been against people who have kept me OoS forever that way. Centurions will be hell during it, I agree, you need to avoid the pin attack and cgb any grapples

Oupyz
07-20-2017, 09:05 PM
ok we know Cent will be a disaster in a new patch , but fixing a broken class is a much better solution than a staring contest , if cent will be a problem they will nerf him

that's what the test is all about .

the changes are pretty good , so please people let's wait a week to get a better image i'am on pc will post a feedback once the pts is on .

Arekonator
07-20-2017, 10:30 PM
I, for one am happy with radical changes to game, even when there are bits that i dont like. They can always roll back those changes that turns out badly. They will very likely need to rework/rebalance most of the cast.

My only concern is how long they will take to fix things that will inevitably get broken as a result, because their track record on that is quite bad and thats putting it mildly.

UbiNoty
07-21-2017, 12:04 AM
But again all of these are tests, so those on pc honestly, do us all a favour, go into it with an open mind, don't look to prove one point or another and if something is going to have a huge impact, then yeah let the devs know, but in my own view, this sounds like it will be a huge improvement.

This please x3.

Nothing is finalized yet with these changes. Any part of it could change, it could all change even. Just let us know what you think about it after the PT so we can know where we did good, what should be trashed, and where it needs more work.

Mia.Nora
07-21-2017, 01:11 AM
In an environment Developers are addressing the exploitative single situations that arises before it takes a hold, I would %100 agree with your statement.

However For Honor is a game where community manages to capitalize on the most exploitative aspects of the game and just play based on them, and also it is a game where developers never address those issues timely and let them run rampant for several months. We just need to look at the worst people can bring out of that system, since that is going to be the new meta, and devs wont do anything but need more data for months. That much is already established.

In the light of that just think about below situation;

1. Raider Turtling with GB attempts in between with his whole game is focused on getting you OOS, then going for Zones that you cant parry and mixing them up with GB since you have to dodge and keeping you in OOS. You either risk losing %40 HP or staying in OOS. Not to mention the cancer that will come from sprint into 50/50 GB/Charge.

2. Centurions can just swing once into air to make their charged heavy unblockable. Parry time on that is already funky, but after patch it wont even give GB anymore. So the worst punish they need to fear is a light attack. And what do they get from it? 25 damage + Stamina Damage + Pin. They can either confirm into 60 damage with more stamina drain, or go for mixups for full stamina drain. Once you are OOS, you are totally screwed since now they can just harass with super fast heavies and unblockables you cant parry which also can be cancelled into GB immediately. They wont run out stamina either, they have a stupid stamina pool and use so little stamina. Risk vs reward on just charging unblockable heavy is already mesed up as is, after patch it will be completely broken.

Also remember that not everyone plays as PK who has best dodge in game, a Nobushi/Shugoki wont be able to dodge his unblockables with ease and even if they do they wont get anything out of it.


All this excluding guaranteed cancer new 2 characters will introduce. No point in being na´ve about 2 new characters coming out balanced, or even being balanced before season 4. We all witnessed Centurion single handedly destroying 4v4 for whole season without being touched.

Looking at the track record, I am really scared of the new meta after this patch. PBT wont likely change anything, last one didn't in the slightest it went live as is regardless of how early Raider Charge was noticed. If their track record was otherwise I would agree with patience, but in current track record of season 2 Centurion staying as is for over 2 months and PBT changes going live as is regardless of feedback.. I think we need to be real vocal of obvious problems that are to come if there is any slim chance of them being addressed.

Horus-31
07-21-2017, 01:17 AM
I, for one am happy with radical changes to game, even when there are bits that i dont like. They can always roll back those changes that turns out badly. They will very likely need to rework/rebalance most of the cast.

My only concern is how long they will take to fix things that will inevitably get broken as a result, because their track record on that is quite bad and thats putting it mildly.

This. Given how slow the devs are to take feedback (especially on balance) into account, some of us are not going to wait 2 weeks to say what we're concerned about. So yes, we're "emoting and reacting right now", because whatever the content of the definitive meta patch is, a balance patch will have to be released. And we would prefer it to be released at the same time, not three months later.

So we're not wasting any time and we're already analysing how the proposed changes would have side effects on balance. Parry nerf and chip damage mean that heroes with a weak dodge who rely exclusively on blocks and parries for defence will be at a disadvantage. OOS changes mean that heroes who have a small stamina pool will also be at a bigger desadvantage and heroes with stamina drain hability will be even more powerfull. In its current state, the defensive meta patch would probably make the Centurion getting even more OP and the Nobushi (weak dodge + already has stamina management issues) weaker than she is right now. On the other hand, ending the defensive meta means counter-attackers can counter-attack again. Maybe the Orochi doesn't need the buff we were discussing two months ago (or maybe a smaller buff).

I don't see any harm in trying to pass that analysis to the devs, even before the PT begins.

InebriatedPalm
07-21-2017, 01:36 AM
I'm actually pretty happy about this. Of all the traits I value in my heroes, it's their stamina cost vs stamina regeneration. I constantly keep a close eye on it in a fight and as someone who plays mostly assassin characters, it is immensely annoying how a turtle was able to punish you with a parry in an attempt to open them up, and when they're out of stamina they go straight back to turtling until it's refilled. After a while it's been getting easier to adapt and be aggressive (so long as you apply the correct strategy to the right hero) But this here is a game changer, and I'm grateful for it. Not that I don't think there will be some eventual issues in the next week but as long as it's a work in progress, i'll be sure to keep an open mind :)

StriderBorne
07-21-2017, 07:24 PM
You are spot on. The DEVs seem out of touch with the community in certain aspects, especially when it comes to balance and in particular the Centurion.
I'm about to make a post and challenge the devs to actually play the game against some skilled players using some of the cheap bs and see how much "fun" they have.
In other games you see EVERYONE switch to the cheapest class and thats what seems to get their attention, and I think many good people like sticking to the class they actually like the most instead and hoping for balance which feels like never comes.