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Gibbage1
03-07-2004, 05:41 PM
Well quite simple, its very good! I have finally had a chance to fly it a bit online and there is no question about it. Its a deadly fighter!!! There are a few things that need to be addressed like low-speed stalls and roll on some computers. But I think its how it should be!

#1, currently the P-38 is up against a tough cround. A croud it would have never had to face in WWII. Uber aircraft like P-80's, He-162, Ta-152 and 109Z. Also Yak's and LA's! In that croud, nothing fairs well. But its still a great ground pounder. In my openion, much better then the IL2, and a LOT less vulnerable. Once things start to get restricted, it will only get better for the P-38 since not much on Axis in 1943 and 44 has much of an advantage on it. Then it will shine!

#2, its an aces aircraft. Not because its in the Aces add-on, but because you need to be very good in order to use it. I consider the P-39 to be the same, but to a lesser degree as the P-38. You need to conserve your energy, pick your fights, use what you have, and take every advantage. The P-38 will let you do a lot of stuff, if you have the time to learn, and the skill to master it. Just like the FW-190 D9, it takes a master pilot to make it a master fighter.

#3, She is very though! 20MM's just seem to bounce off her with no worries. But EVERYONE in a 109 takes Mk-108's. P-38's in Europe never had to face Mk-108's since they were primaraly used on bombers, not fighters. But she can still take a few hits.

#4, The dive recovery brake on the L is your friend!!!! It has more functions then recovering from a compressability dive. It can tighten your turn, slow you down quickly, and help you pull through a loop. Use it too your advantage!!! Throw them down and part yourself on someones tail after a dive. Pop them out when someone is diving on you to make them overshoot. Their uses are almost endless!!! Only limited by your skill and emagination. They also make the P-38 a good dive bombing platform. Not as good as the Stuka, but good enough. You need to keep a considerable ammount of down-stick to keep it in a dive. Plus with two 1000lb bombs, you only need to get close http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

#5, firepower. I hope Oleg improves the spread on the .50 cals. This is my biggest complaint. but even so, its still quite deadly. You dont need to worrie about convergance. Leading is easy. You can fire at someone from further away. Its a good gun platform. Just not as good as it should be!

#6, Low speed stalls. The P-38 can hang on its props better then any other aircraft. I was online a few nights ago and got into a low and slow turnfight with a Ta-152 1 on 1. We both had our flaps down full, pulling on the virg of a stall. He was able to turn inside me, so I swapped ends and went the other way. I checked my 6 just to watch him tumble into the ground. Big wings and all!!! I personally would NOT try this against a Yak 3. But I think the Ta-152 has a lower stall speed then any German fighter. I dont know if the guy was sloppy on the stick or what. But the P-38 non-the-less was rather forgiving of me. Also its easy to get out of a stall. Just raise your flaps and point it down. For some reason, the airbrakes only make stalls worse.

Well those are my thoughts on the p-38. What are yours? Scourge of the sky? Or flying target?

Gibbage1
03-07-2004, 05:41 PM
Well quite simple, its very good! I have finally had a chance to fly it a bit online and there is no question about it. Its a deadly fighter!!! There are a few things that need to be addressed like low-speed stalls and roll on some computers. But I think its how it should be!

#1, currently the P-38 is up against a tough cround. A croud it would have never had to face in WWII. Uber aircraft like P-80's, He-162, Ta-152 and 109Z. Also Yak's and LA's! In that croud, nothing fairs well. But its still a great ground pounder. In my openion, much better then the IL2, and a LOT less vulnerable. Once things start to get restricted, it will only get better for the P-38 since not much on Axis in 1943 and 44 has much of an advantage on it. Then it will shine!

#2, its an aces aircraft. Not because its in the Aces add-on, but because you need to be very good in order to use it. I consider the P-39 to be the same, but to a lesser degree as the P-38. You need to conserve your energy, pick your fights, use what you have, and take every advantage. The P-38 will let you do a lot of stuff, if you have the time to learn, and the skill to master it. Just like the FW-190 D9, it takes a master pilot to make it a master fighter.

#3, She is very though! 20MM's just seem to bounce off her with no worries. But EVERYONE in a 109 takes Mk-108's. P-38's in Europe never had to face Mk-108's since they were primaraly used on bombers, not fighters. But she can still take a few hits.

#4, The dive recovery brake on the L is your friend!!!! It has more functions then recovering from a compressability dive. It can tighten your turn, slow you down quickly, and help you pull through a loop. Use it too your advantage!!! Throw them down and part yourself on someones tail after a dive. Pop them out when someone is diving on you to make them overshoot. Their uses are almost endless!!! Only limited by your skill and emagination. They also make the P-38 a good dive bombing platform. Not as good as the Stuka, but good enough. You need to keep a considerable ammount of down-stick to keep it in a dive. Plus with two 1000lb bombs, you only need to get close http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

#5, firepower. I hope Oleg improves the spread on the .50 cals. This is my biggest complaint. but even so, its still quite deadly. You dont need to worrie about convergance. Leading is easy. You can fire at someone from further away. Its a good gun platform. Just not as good as it should be!

#6, Low speed stalls. The P-38 can hang on its props better then any other aircraft. I was online a few nights ago and got into a low and slow turnfight with a Ta-152 1 on 1. We both had our flaps down full, pulling on the virg of a stall. He was able to turn inside me, so I swapped ends and went the other way. I checked my 6 just to watch him tumble into the ground. Big wings and all!!! I personally would NOT try this against a Yak 3. But I think the Ta-152 has a lower stall speed then any German fighter. I dont know if the guy was sloppy on the stick or what. But the P-38 non-the-less was rather forgiving of me. Also its easy to get out of a stall. Just raise your flaps and point it down. For some reason, the airbrakes only make stalls worse.

Well those are my thoughts on the p-38. What are yours? Scourge of the sky? Or flying target?

p1ngu666
03-07-2004, 05:55 PM
i havent been able to fly it well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
same with all the other aircraft, just even worse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i like her tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
will we get a J with dive brakes?
oh and check pm plz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i find it has a nasty stall also :\

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necrobaron
03-07-2004, 06:06 PM
No,the 38 is certainly not a flying target,but it definately takes time to master. One of the problems I have is the vibration that occurs when firing the 20mm and 50 cals. I always understood that structurally the P-38 was built around a 37mm cannon which was later replaced by the 20mm. The reinforcements done to accomodate the 37mm was retained,however,making the Lightning a very stable weapons platform. It seems to me that the buffeting and shaking that currently occurs when firing the guns doesn't reflect this.

"Not all who wander are lost."

Hunde_3.JG51
03-07-2004, 06:15 PM
Thanks Gibbage for post and everything else. Can't wait to try and learn the P-38, sound and load-outs are great and this plane oozes character (which I like alot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). And as a 190 guy I have been messing around with the Ta-152 alot and it definitely has a nasty low-speed stall that will bite you and quickly result in a spin (again, character is a good thing).

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Gibbage1
03-07-2004, 06:16 PM
No dive brakes on J models. That would make it a 1944 aircraft. Why fly a J with dive brakes when you have the L?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
i havent been able to fly it well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
same with all the other aircraft, just even worse http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i like her tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
will we get a J with dive brakes?
oh and check pm plz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i find it has a nasty stall also :\

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BS87
03-07-2004, 06:19 PM
My only complaint is the severe amount of downward force on the stick needed to keep the nose straight or even down in a dive with the divebrakes out, but i supposed its historically accurate so i'll try not to complain.

p1ngu666
03-07-2004, 06:32 PM
ah http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

BuzzU
03-07-2004, 07:28 PM
Just use combat flaps to pull out of a dive on the J model. It works almost as good as the dive brakes, if not better.


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03-07-2004, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BS87:
My only complaint is the severe amount of downward force on the stick needed to keep the nose straight or even down in a dive with the divebrakes out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFL

Bull_dog_
03-07-2004, 07:38 PM
I've only managed a couple of hours on-line because I suffer from that time out bug... hope we get a solution or patch soon but here are my first impressions...

Bull_dog_
03-07-2004, 07:51 PM
OOps...hit enter

Anyways Speed and accelaration are very good...try zooming behind an enemy and deploying your airbrakes to slow you down...get about .15km or closer and give 'em a burst and poof...up in smoke! I've shot the tails off of Ki-84's, shredded wings off 109's and actually killed the engine on Fw's now with the complex damage model.

Dispersion and tracers along with vibration make long shooting very hard...but this is a classic case of get close and closer and closer and pull the trigger...my only real beef is this aspect. It just isn't correct.

Yes the lightning has torque but if you point it skywards and delicately massage your rudder it will dance on its tail...not unlike the 109K. Makes energy fighting real good.

No it does not turn good, but it turns good enough as it did in real life...I don't see any problems with this aspect of the modelling and I think the control heavyness in the J model is about right...if you don't go too fast the flaps do work. I like the fact that you can attain fast dive speeds and still pull out...compressibility only occurred above 18,000 ft. so this seems very right...I haven't tested much up high yet.

Ammo seems to go quick, but I have found gunnery challenging. I think the damage is right for the armament, but like I said the dispersion, vibration and lack of visible tracers make long shooting hard.

The aircraft does pitch so a gentle hand is needed...that is one thing I grew to like about the Jug is how stable it is...I'm thinking the lightning shouldn't pitch like that but be more like the Jug, but I really don't know...if the pitch was toned down, I think gunnery would improve too.

Overall, I think the plane will competitive on line and good off line. It does take a heap of damage...just make sure you map your engine feather key. AI seem to let you go if they get one of your engines on fire...often you can dive and get it extinguished and fly away. I think it will be every bit as good as the Jug but like the Jug you will have to fly smart...

Intercoolers work good too just like in real life...it does overheat but it takes awhile and then it cools down quickly. This will make those low altitude sprints more competitive. I have't been online yet to see if I can outrun a Fw A at low altitude yet, but I think it may be close.

Thanks for your work Gib...lets get Oleg to fix that gunnery situation and we'll have the real McCoy to fly

lbhskier37
03-07-2004, 08:29 PM
Ive noticed the L is fricking fast. And I really like fast planes. This plane was always my favorite as a kid, and is definitly my favorite Allied plane. I was online the other day, and lost an engine to one of those nasty bf110 gunners, I killed that engine and feathered the prop. On my way to land at home I go jumped by a Zeke(the late model we had from the last patch). I firewalled the good engine and put the prop pitch at 100% and proceeded to outrun that thing all over the map. I never really pulled away, but he never got closer than 600m. I drug him around until someone else finally helped me. I was really surprised, should it be this fast on one engine? All in all, it is one bad-*** aircraft!

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DONB3397
03-07-2004, 08:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gibbage1:
Well those are my thoughts on the p-38. What are yours? Scourge of the sky? Or flying target?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neither, of course. But a good gun platform, and lethal with it's firepower. I've flown it a lot in the past couple of days, and love the feel and power. It climbs, man how it climbs! But I don't have your confidence in it's slow turning abilities. Fighting zeroes (offline), I try to pick my fights...always with an altitude advantage, and never give up speed. Sorry. Even Tommy McQuire, a consumate pilot and P-38 legend, lost his life in a slow turning fight with a Frank down low, a tactic he taught his squadron to avoid.

Agree on the dive brakes. I buried it twice in a row (slow learner). I choose to fly the J on the island maps because I believe that was the a/c that was flown in the Solomons, PTO. On western Europe maps and online, the "L" exclusively.

Finally, it's an excellent ground attack aircraft as modeled in FB. You can light up an entire column of trucks in a single pass, or hammer armor with rockets and bombs (shallow dives, please).

Among the references, I found this statement: "The...P-38 is known today as a fighter, but in fact it was never intended to combat other fighters, nor was it created by Kelly Johnson as a fighter. It was designed to intercept and destroy enemy bombers. Simply put, it was a flying anti-aircraft weapon." Bong and McQuire and Charles MacDonald proved that to be wrong. But it took a special pilot, and favored certain tactics.

I suspect our community will develop a group of P-38 specialists who will cause some serious damage...even in a tough crowd, as you say.

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There is only Winning!

BuzzU
03-07-2004, 08:36 PM
Bull Dog,

I don't agree with what you said about compressibilty. Dive down over 600 km/h at SL, and see if you can pull out without the flaps or dive brakes.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
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03-07-2004, 08:50 PM
The dive recover brakes disrupt airflow under the bottom of the wing, hopefully slowing the plane back below critical Mach. The strong pitch-up moment found in the sim is incorrect. There is an increase in lift, but no accompanying moment. This seems to be a limitation of the FM.

Anyway, the actual symptoms of P-38 compressibility should include severe buffeting in addition to lack of control. Diving beyond 475 mph should also result in a nose-down moment or "tuck under" similar to how the BI-1 behaves.

Korolov
03-07-2004, 08:52 PM
The most well balanced and best all around fighter on the allied side. Anything from escort, interception, ground attack, this baby can pull it off. You'll have a hard time dueling with it, but multiple numbers of P-38s working together is a awesome sight.

Also one of the best fighters to take up against the japanese planes, since it can outrun them and stay on their heels when needed.

Overall, I'd say its a great plane, but the problem is when big gun LW planes show up... P-38 is very allergic to Mk108!

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BS87
03-07-2004, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kweassa1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BS87:
_My only complaint is the severe amount of downward force on the stick_ needed to keep the nose straight _or even down in a dive with the divebrakes out_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You seem to be missing my point. I know it is historically correct, its just its not a good feeling when you have a bogie in your sights and you hit the dive brakes, and your nose pops up and you lose your shot. I'm not complaining about it, just saying its an odd feeling.

BTW, i think you are going to see the p38 as one of the main USAAF planes online.

[This message was edited by BS87 on Sun March 07 2004 at 08:58 PM.]

Gibbage1
03-07-2004, 11:11 PM
You are wrong. You DONT know aerodynamics at all. The dive recovery flaps not only slowed down the aircraft, but pulled the aircraft out. I have many sounces of pilots saying they also used it in turns to tighten up the turn just enough to get the crosshairs on the target. But not for long sinec you loose a lot of speed.

Read a few P-38 pilot story's and you will soon learn that they used the dive recovery flaps for a lot more then recovering from dives http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A good P-38 pilot uses ALL the tools and tricks possible, and there are plenty of them on the P-38.

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cosmokart:
The dive recover brakes disrupt airflow under the bottom of the wing, hopefully slowing the plane back below critical Mach. The strong pitch-up moment found in the sim is incorrect. There is an increase in lift, but no accompanying moment. This seems to be a limitation of the FM.

Anyway, the actual symptoms of P-38 compressibility should include severe buffeting in addition to lack of control. Diving beyond 475 mph should also result in a nose-down moment or "tuck under" similar to how the BI-1 behaves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

03-07-2004, 11:53 PM
Yes, Gibbage, I do know aerodynamics. Far more than you do. I'm not disupting your 3D models - they are great - but your notion about the dive flaps is slightly misguided. Please don't take it the wrong way. I can tell you're a huge P-38 fan http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The dive recovery brake does increase lift, but it does not cause a nose-up pitching moment.

Your sources of pilots using the dive brake to turn tighter are correct. However, the strong pitch-up is not correct. To turn tighter, all you have to do is (a) go slower, or (b) fly at a higher coefficient of lift. Well guess what, the dive brakes help in both regards.

As for recovering from dives..... the dive flaps helped pilots to recover by limiting airspeed. If you go too fast in a P-38, it tucks under and/or shakes itself apart. The dive recovery brake doesn't cause a huge nose-up moment - it just negates the tuck-under.

A human pilot with unboosted control surfaces can only pull so hard. The sim limits stick force, as you know. The dive recovery flap shouldn't give any sort of boost to the elevator. It's not like the auto-pullout of a Stuka, which was an actual trim change separate from the dive brakes.

In normal subsonic flight the tail sits in downwash from the wing. As the P-38 goes transonic a normal shock on the upper surface of the wing disrupts that downwash, causing "tuck under".

The dive recovery flap serves to keep the P-38 from tucking onto its back, and keeps it slow enough to survive, until it gets to lower denser air. 0.675 Mach at 30,000 feet is around 735 kmh, and 0.675 Mach at 10,000 feet is around 795 kmh.

So to reiterate, the dive recovery brake DOES help you turn tighter, but it does NOT cause a massive pitch-up moment.

~S!~

chris455
03-08-2004, 12:01 AM
Gib, couple of things.
Firstly my overall feelings on the machine are stated in my post entitled "Thank you for the beautiful P-38". Kinda tips my hand as to how I feel. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now on to business:
J model broke up in a dive tonight @ 810KPH indicated- should it?

Entire empennage detached after 1 20mm hit from a Zero, again, is this realistic?

And lastly, (I may sound really dumb on this one) no WEP or anything for either model?

Please don't take my questions as crticism in any way, I love the P-38, and again, THANK YOU!

S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

03-08-2004, 12:19 AM
This is probably the report that's got people confused (see below).

But first, realize that an aircraft trimmed for level flight at 200-300 mph will have a nose up tendency at 400mph!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"... once going downhill, the Achilles heel of the Lightning comes out: compressibility. I never got there, but I passed 400 mph in a dive without much time to think about it. ... Fortunately the P-38L had dive flaps -- large electrically driven surfaces under each outside wing that deflected no matter what the speed. I hit the switch on the wheel and, with no pull on the wheel at all, the plane pulled out and pitched up into a shallow climb." -- the late Jeff Ethell, Flight Journal <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By 400mph the P-38 is entering compressibility. The tuck-under tendency caused by the disrupted wing downwash over the tail is far stronger than the nose-up from the trim setting. When Jeff deployed the dive brakes, it was plenty enough to offset the tuck-under and the aircraft naturally started to come out of the dive on its own.

Try it in ANY plane in the sim. Trim yourself for level flight, and then dive to around 700 km/h and let go of the stick. Whaddaya know... the nose comes up on its own. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The thing is, the nose in a P-38 DOESN'T come up on its own once you hit compressibility.

03-08-2004, 12:34 AM
One more thing before I go to bed.

Please see the article on compressibiilty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressibility) at Wikipedia.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For instance, the P-38 Lightning had a particular problem in high speed dives that led to the horizontal stabilizer losing "authority". Pilots would enter dives, and then find that they could no longer control the plane which continued to nose over until it crashed. Adding a "belly flap" to upset the airflow cured the problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No mention of a nose-up moment. Big mention of restored airflow and control authority.

By the way, Spitfire fans might want to read the Wikipedia article too... I have a feeling there's going to be a big stink about Spit IX roll controllabilty once that plane reaches IL-2/FB/AEP. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BuzzU
03-08-2004, 12:35 AM
Explain this then. Fly level flight at 300 km/h, and hit the dive brakes. Tell me it doesn't pitch up?


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03-08-2004, 12:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
Explain this then. Fly level flight at 300 km/h, and hit the dive brakes. Tell me it doesn't pitch up?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the sim it does pitch up because it's wrong.

BM357_Raven
03-08-2004, 02:11 AM
umm.. Well, I love the P-38. I have always liked the P-38, but after flying it for several hours, I have decided that it is one of my favorites..

S~

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jurinko
03-08-2004, 02:39 AM
Bong told about the tactics P-38 vs Zeros something like.. "speed is a life. Do not slow down under 400kph in fight. Avoid hard turns and steep climbs which slows you down. The best way to escape enemies is high-speed shallow climb or shallow dive. If any Japanese tries to follow you in a dive, build up enough speed and roll and pitch up - their planes have bad handling at high speeds and you will spearate easily from them."
I think due to its superior speed, twin engines and durability it is excellent plane against Japs, but against Germans, which planes are similar in speed/climb, it is much harder. In ETO they worked as fighter escort for the bombers just because of their good range, and after P-51s showed up in large numbers, as a ground attack plane. Quite consistent with what we see in AEP. Just that slow stall fight charactersistics are a bit weak maybe..

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

Dnmy
03-08-2004, 03:56 AM
Love the P38.

Makes great Ki cannonfodder. Don't you just love it when you shoot the horizontal stabilizer off and see that P38 spinning down? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Don't aim for the fuselage or engines because it's it's much nicer to hit the stabilizer.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

faustnik
03-08-2004, 01:14 PM
I was testing a '43 COOP mission offline and had a great time fighting P-38s with my 190A5. I was chasing one in a high speed dive over the channel but, could not gain any ground. As the waves started getting closer and speeds got higher, I noticed the P-38 having a stability issue and eventually he started pitching nose down. I was gaining too much speed and pulled up. Sure enough the P-38 had hit compressability speed and went right into the channel. 1C (with Gibbages assistance) has really done a great job with the P-38 FM.

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BuzzU
03-08-2004, 01:22 PM
That won't happen to a human.


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VW-IceFire
03-08-2004, 01:29 PM
After the initial negative post I was a little worried but I'm now very excited to take the P-38 into combat. Obviously its not an uber fighter with the ability to out turn dimes and go to the moon as some were expecting it to but it sounds like a great fighter when flown properly and that goes for most fighters.

I'm excited...where's my copy eh Futureshop???! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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ZG77_Nagual
03-08-2004, 01:48 PM
Everything is cannon fodder for the KIP38 (http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p38.html)
The pitch up phenomenon with the dive breaks is pretty well documented in many sources.

Here's a good read on the 38.

faustnik
03-08-2004, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
That won't happen to a human.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Human flown P-38Js don't suffer from compressability?

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BuzzU
03-08-2004, 02:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
That won't happen to a human.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Human flown P-38Js don't suffer from compressability?

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They do, but we know how to get out of them. It looks like the AI doesn't.

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Buzz
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03-08-2004, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I noticed the P-38 having a stability issue and eventually he started pitching nose down. I was gaining too much speed and pulled up. Sure enough the P-38 had hit compressability speed and went right into the channel. 1C (with Gibbages assistance) has really done a great job with the P-38 FM.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True! Gibbage deserves a lot of credit... not only for creating the 3-D models but also for helping get the FM as good as it is.

Really, the pitch-up flaps problem is just a fundamental issue with the flight model. All flaps cause a pitch-up moment in this sim, regardless of whether it's appropriate for the particular aircraft.

3ra_DSLam
03-08-2004, 04:42 PM
Flaps (and also recovery flap) induces a pitch up moment because you, in fact, are changing the wing profile in a way that the center of pressures moves forward, induceing the nose to go up. At least is what I always thought...so in FB is correctly modelled (if it's right what I say)
Salute!

Korolov
03-08-2004, 05:14 PM
Ok, about the dive flaps - We know they were about mid wing, and went what - 35-40 degrees downwards? So here's the question I have: we know that standard flaps work in the same way, adding lift, but being at the trailing edge. Would that provide lift?

On the other hand, the dive brake is going downwards, much like the downward elevator or aileron movement, making a nose down attitude. Drag being underside of the wing, seems like it would pull the wing downwards. But then again, it's not on the trailing edge.

All the more reason to fly the J, I guess. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

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StellarRat
03-08-2004, 05:22 PM
The P-38 isn't much of a fighter in my opinion. It can't dive fast for B and Z (against mid to late model planes) and it can't turn well enough for T and B. So what good is it? I can only see it being good for attacking bombers and much slower aircraft where the speed difference would produce good B and Z results ie. Zeros That explains why the P-38 aces were mostly Pacific Theater pilots.

It is a great ground attack plane though.

BuzzU
03-08-2004, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:
The P-38 isn't much of a fighter in my opinion. It can't dive fast for B and Z (against mid to late model planes) and it can't turn well enough for T and B. So what good is it? I can only see it being good for attacking bombers and much slower aircraft where the speed difference would produce good B and Z results ie. Zeros That explains why the P-38 aces were mostly Pacific Theater pilots.

It is a great ground attack plane though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'll change your mind if you fly it for awhile. I said the same thing you did at first.

Why is it not a good B&Z plane? Climbing back up, and good guns are what's important. The P-38 is good in both departments. It can take a lot of damage, and with the dive brake will out turn any German plane if you like T&B. It works good at SL or altitude. Anybody who thinks it's not a good plane is just looking for uber planes to fly. No challenge in that.

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3ra_DSLam
03-08-2004, 05:48 PM
Korolov, in fact it depends on several factors (wing geometry, position of masses center, etc) but generally it raises the nose up. The inverse is the modern airplane spoiler(air brake) in the upper side of the wing; when deployed, the nose goes down.
Time to go to bed...

StellarRat
03-08-2004, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
You'll change your mind if you fly it for awhile. I said the same thing you did at first. Anybody who thinks it's not a good plane is just looking for uber planes to fly. No challenge in that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did fly it for a while. I fly the P-47 D-10 almost exclusively (not an "uber" plane in most peoples opinion) and it's way better than the P-38 as far as I can tell. I've shot down a bunch of P-38's online and the reverse has not been true. I just dive away if a P-38 gets the advantage or turn away. Two things the P-38 can't do. If the P-38 didn't have the compressibly issues it would be much, much better. WW-II twin engine fighters were just a bad idea. I will grant you that the P-38 was probably the best twin engine figher (that was actually used.)

BS87
03-08-2004, 06:20 PM
Well ofcourse it's not going to catch the jug in a dive. I've gotten the jug to 1000kph + before it went boom, they are two diffent planes, to be flown differently.

BfHeFwMe
03-08-2004, 06:35 PM
Great planes Gibb, top shelf quality, flying sweet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

DONB3397
03-08-2004, 10:49 PM
This thread has probably run it's course. The P-38J & L are good planes and great additions to the FB stable. And, last night I learned something about the sophistication of their flight models.

While setting up one of Poymando's pre-D-Day P-51 missions, I added a P-38J and wingman. Instead of flying B-17 escort with the Mustangs, I dropped down to attack AAA installations and bridges near Caen with rockets and 20 mm ahead of the bombers.

Pulling out of a low pass, the plane lurched and started to fall off on the right wing; the starboard engine lit up like a torch from an apparent AAA hit. At 2,000 feet, this plane is burning and yawing and a hundred miles inside German-occupied France.

I've been hit like this before, and it is usually followed by an explosion, a departing wing, or a flat spin into the ground. But not this time. I shut down the engine, attempted to feather the prop and pumped the fire extinguisher and, just like advertised, the fire went out. I turned up the good engine and actually started to climb. The fire restarted at 5,000, then stopped when I nosed down in a steep dive.

Back at the (offshore island) base fifteen minutes later, the engine was burning again, and I was standing on the left rudder to keep it straight. Made a straight in approach, pulled off the runway and exited the plane. And (virtually) survived.

I share this story because it seems to be one of those unique FB stories that simply couldn't happen with any other sim. 1C seems to have created a complex "if...then" set of instructions that makes the plane respond to pilot input in a way none of the other sims I've flown can.

And the IL2 P-38, in addition to being a powerful, versatile virtual fighter, seems to be able to take advantage of it's two-engines in a way I didn't expect. It's tough.

I'm almost a believer! Good job Gibb and 1C.

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RobertNighthawk
03-09-2004, 12:15 AM
Thank you, Gibbage. Superb!

03-09-2004, 07:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by E111_DSLam:
Flaps (and also recovery flap) induces a pitch up moment because you, in fact, are changing the wing profile in a way that the center of pressures moves forward, induceing the nose to go up. At least is what I always thought...so in FB is correctly modelled (if it's right what I say)
Salute!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Moving the CP forward would make the aircraft more unstable.

It's true that the CP moves aft as the aircraft enters transonic flight, but the P-38's particular problem is not related to that.

The shock on the top of the main wing upsets the downwash which the tail usually sits in, causing a strong nose-down tendency.

NACA-Langely experimented with dive spoilers in several locations and found that a spoiler just aft of the wing trailing edge worked best. However, it's hard to put a flap there hanging out in space. The next best location was under the wing at 30% chord.