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View Full Version : Remove all ledges in brawls and duels.



vgrimr_J
07-18-2017, 01:39 PM
this **** is getting old turtle ledging warlords and raiders everywhere.

in skill based game there shouldnt be **** like this.

EDIT: since you guys are removing revenge in 1v1s and fixing the turtle meta maybe next step is to remove ledges in 1v1s and 2v2s making the game more healthy

PDXGorechild
07-18-2017, 01:42 PM
I also support this notion.

Duels and Brawls should be a true test of skill, not cramped maps with ledges to be thrown off.

IesooMI
07-18-2017, 02:02 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged

Aarpian
07-18-2017, 02:08 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged

Why do I constantly see idiots say this? You might aswell suggest not-losing

That_guy44
07-18-2017, 02:08 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged
+1

vgrimr_J
07-18-2017, 02:27 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged

i dont want to make every round a staring contest

Charmzzz
07-18-2017, 03:02 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged

Are you playing on PC? Did you experience the instant-Raider-stampede that carries you even further than a Warlord GB-throw? Oh and it has an almost-instant startup time and can be mixed up with a GB.

In a Duel where I got the enemy to ONE bar of health while I have over half of my HP, do you think that ONE parry / stampede into an environmental kill is the correct outcome? Like I parried the other guy maybe 3 times and evaded, CGBed etc, and all he has to do is getting ONE parry to instakill me? Sorry boy, that is not my understanding of a skill-based Duel.

Zwerqi
07-18-2017, 03:26 PM
Are you playing on PC? Did you experience the instant-Raider-stampede that carries you even further than a Warlord GB-throw? Oh and it has an almost-instant startup time and can be mixed up with a GB.

In a Duel where I got the enemy to ONE bar of health while I have over half of my HP, do you think that ONE parry / stampede into an environmental kill is the correct outcome? Like I parried the other guy maybe 3 times and evaded, CGBed etc, and all he has to do is getting ONE parry to instakill me? Sorry boy, that is not my understanding of a skill-based Duel.

Thats the difference between the classes/moveset they have. You can only deal with it.

RatedChaotic
07-18-2017, 04:31 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged

Whats really sad is.....thats not even true. When it only takes that one mistake and your dead. I think it just encourages players to turtle even more. Since the environmental kills are but a few steps away at all times.

In my opinion I'd like to see less ledges to atleast have more of a fighting duel(which actually uses skill) than using skill in king of the hill matches like we have now. I'll admit it if we are deuling im going for the fast easy win of using the ledge. Honestly I think thats the wrong mindset to have. Thank the devs for that.

IesooMI
07-18-2017, 04:50 PM
Whats really sad is.....thats not even true. When it only takes that one mistake and your dead. I think it just encourages players to turtle even more. Since the environmental kills are but a few steps away at all times.

In my opinion I'd like to see less ledges to atleast have more of a fighting duel(which actually uses skill) than using skill in king of the hill matches like we have now.


I play nothing but duels and brawls and very very rarely get enviro'd. I must be doing something right.

Antonioj26
07-18-2017, 04:53 PM
Then show some skill and stop getting ledged

One of the more idiotic things that gets perpetuated on these forums. The best of us still get ledged and I'd wager I could ledge at least once per set depending on the map. It's not hard to do and even if you don't manage to ledge someone you can often times shake them up and put them on their Backfoot to avoid it. It's stupid and promotes more turtling and casual gameplay.

RatedChaotic
07-18-2017, 05:00 PM
I play nothing but duels and brawls and very very rarely get enviro'd. I must be doing something right.

Congrats. But I just think duels would be more fun with less ledges. Knowing we have to constantly watch for the ledge, it promotes turtling. One thing we dont need.

Hell 9 times outta 10 players run to the safe zones without ledges. Whats that tell ya? Tells me they want to duel. Not make one mistake and die. Not all of us are near perfect at this game like you are claiming to be.

Sorry but like Antonio said Even the best get pushed off.

bmason1000
07-18-2017, 05:40 PM
Why do I constantly see idiots say this? You might aswell suggest not-losing
... that's not bad advice. I'm going to try this next time...

Tyrjo
07-18-2017, 05:50 PM
Ledge kills could definitely be slightly toned down a bit in duels. I also think many of the duel arenas are way to cramped. "Hey, lets make a duel arena the size of an outhouse, that will be fun."

thornh
07-18-2017, 05:58 PM
I wouldn't mind muli-tiered areas where can be pushed off of something or down a set of stairs and survive. Obviously there are places like that all over the game. They would have to tweak or eliminate the instant death from above move but it would add variety, keep the ledgers somewhat happy and let the ledgees survive and have a chance to still win the round. I would also like to see some input sequence that would allow you to save yourself from falling off a ledge.

Acalson
07-18-2017, 06:37 PM
I really hate people like you. Im a Warden and i think ledges are good. It takes skill to not be thrown off. If you have a problem with being thrown off learn to not get baited or gb. Always assume your enemy is trying to throw you off the map. It is a legitimate game design and strategy so work around it or master it and stop sucking.

Antonioj26
07-18-2017, 07:14 PM
I really hate people like you. Im a Warden and i think ledges are good. It takes skill to not be thrown off. If you have a problem with being thrown off learn to not get baited or gb. Always assume your enemy is trying to throw you off the map. It is a legitimate game design and strategy so work around it or master it and stop sucking.

But it doesn't take any skill to ledge someone. It only take ones missed cgb, parry, whiffed attack, or misread of a dodge to lose a match. That's poor game design. Not sure what you mean by legitimate game design but I'm assuming you mean that it's in the game so it's fair to use it. If that's what you mean then that's a idiotic argument too, conquerors prenerf sb, shugos prenerf oni charge, and current WL headbutt are all recognized as being bulls hit despite the fact that they are "legitimate game design." This is no different.

UbiJurassic
07-19-2017, 12:28 AM
We know ledging is a community concern, especially when it comes to modes like Duel that are meant to emphasize personal skill. This is why we made sure in Tournament mode to decrease the amount of environmental opportunities to kill opponents. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question to bring those map changes over to Duel, assuming a large amount of players would welcome the changes. Would love to hear some more feedback regarding this, but let's try and keep the conversation constructive. :)

watsonclan335u
07-19-2017, 05:40 AM
We know ledging is a community concern, especially when it comes to modes like Duel that are meant to emphasize personal skill. This is why we made sure in Tournament mode to decrease the amount of environmental opportunities to kill opponents. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question to bring those map changes over to Duel, assuming a large amount of players would welcome the changes. Would love to hear some more feedback regarding this, but let's try and keep the conversation constructive. :)

This really just needs to be left alone, if there is no element of chance the newcomers will simply not play duels or brawls. It is selfish to think that because it might happen then it should be removed. There are mechanisms in place to prevent being ledged, if someone had a problem blocking top heavies, should we also remove them as well? The ledges are there for a reason, they create an element of excitement and intensity, without them we will have more of a snoozefest with turtles conquerors, warlords and lb's.

PDXGorechild
07-19-2017, 09:01 AM
Hell 9 times outta 10 players run to the safe zones without ledges. Whats that tell ya? Tells me they want to duel. Not make one mistake and die. Not all of us are near perfect at this game like you are claiming to be.

Sorry but like Antonio said Even the best get pushed off.

This. If I've found a good opponent for duels, one who fights with honour and skill, we'll usually run to the safest part of the map before we start fighting. This means away from ledges, traps and narrow walkways. This is 75% of the time or more. This tells me that most players want a safer, bigger area to fight in. A lot of players will even spam "Sorry!" if they accidentally ledge me, and I do the same.


The ledges are there for a reason, they create an element of excitement and intensity, without them we will have more of a snoozefest with turtles conquerors, warlords and lb's.

Not for me buddy. The turtle meta is it's own separate issue, and very annoying, but even if I miraculously manage to beat a Warlord on my Berseker by GB > Ledging him, the victory would be hollow. I don't think insta-death for one slip-up is reflective of how a duel should be. It gets abused by people who make ledging their only means of victory. It's easier for some classes than others, creating imbalance. What's even more frustrating are the players that try and duel you fairly initially, and once they realise they're outmatched will simply linger near a ledge. What fun.

Ledging is a legitimate tactic. Spamming unblockables is a legitimate tactic. Ganking is a legitimate tactic. Doesnt mean they're not boring tactics in the eyes of most players and something that should be combated by the Dev team.

I believe there should be a choice, however. If someone paid 50 and suffers through the network problems because they really wanted a game where they can push someone off a cliff - they should be able to do that. So here's a suggestion @Ubi:

1. Make us some new maps for duels and brawls that include little or no environmental kills and more space to fight honourably.
2. Give us parameters to set when we search for a game. One such parameter could be "Environmental kills - Tick/Cross", so players like me can choose to exclude certain maps if they wish.
3. Gather data.

Another idea would be to include some maps where the ledges and traps aren't instantaneously lethal. Make it so you can smack someone off a ledge for moderate damage, and an opportunity to get a plunging attack if your enemy doesn't get up and out of the way quick enough. This keeps the fight going rather than it being an instant game-over.

Legacy_Zealot
07-19-2017, 09:08 AM
Learn to counter guard break and read your opponent?

Charmzzz
07-19-2017, 09:19 AM
Learn to counter guard break and read your opponent?

Nah, this does not help vs certain skillsets. You cannot evade every Shugoki Charge, Raider Stampede, Warden Shoulder Bash, Warlord running Charge, Warlord Headbutt, etc etc...

There are moves in the game that favor some classes in ledging.

Legacy_Zealot
07-19-2017, 09:23 AM
Nah, this does not help vs certain skillsets. You cannot evade every Shugoki Charge, Raider Stampede, Warden Shoulder Bash, Warlord running Charge, Warlord Headbutt, etc etc...

There are moves in the game that favor some classes in ledging.

Raider Stampede and WL charge are the most announced moves in the game, easily avoided. Wardens shoulder bash becomes predictable after the first one. Avoiding the ledges helps to prevent ledging... The rest are fair enough statements.:cool:

Dude_of_Valor
07-19-2017, 09:48 AM
One thing I would say is that ledges will teach you to re-position yourself as to avoid them and put yourself in a more favourable position.

I think that (and I include myself) become to fixated with the enemy in front, but need to be aware of what is behind and to the side of us. Treat ledges as an extreme wall where if you muck up, it's game over.

At the end of the day, you could have someone practically dead, but until they are you must never switch off. Always be ready.

Charmzzz
07-19-2017, 09:50 AM
Raider Stampede and WL charge are the most announced moves in the game, easily avoided. Wardens shoulder bash becomes predictable after the first one. Avoiding the ledges helps to prevent ledging... The rest are fair enough statements.:cool:

Raider Stampede announced? Oh man, you have no idea... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmci65rTl1I
Raider even is banned from several tournaments due to the instant Stampede bullsht: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/6ndd8s/psa_raider_seems_to_have_been_banned_from_the/

But hey, keep ignoring facts.

WL Charge - same thing, but WL seems to be immune to nerfs because too many people play him. Look at the tournaments, who wins them? 90% a WL.

Shoulder Bash - ok, this one I can counter often

And your last point, avoid ledges - due to map design I cannot avoid them. WL, Raider, Shugoki, all of them can do a throw that carries me into or near a ledge BY ONE MISTAKE. Those characters can do several mistakes vs most of the roster, but you cant allow yourself ONE mistake vs them? Seems balanced...

Legacy_Zealot
07-19-2017, 10:10 AM
Raider Stampede announced? Oh man, you have no idea... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmci65rTl1I
Raider even is banned from several tournaments due to the instant Stampede bullsht: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/6ndd8s/psa_raider_seems_to_have_been_banned_from_the/

But hey, keep ignoring facts.

WL Charge - same thing, but WL seems to be immune to nerfs because too many people play him. Look at the tournaments, who wins them? 90% a WL.

Shoulder Bash - ok, this one I can counter often

And your last point, avoid ledges - due to map design I cannot avoid them. WL, Raider, Shugoki, all of them can do a throw that carries me into or near a ledge BY ONE MISTAKE. Those characters can do several mistakes vs most of the roster, but you cant allow yourself ONE mistake vs them? Seems balanced...

If I see a raider come out of guard stance I'm ready to spam A to get out the way. Does seem unfair to get ledged by one mistake, it does however work both ways.
Some tournaments don't ban raiders, so it is not accepted by all that it is a huge issue.

As for 'But hey keep ignoring facts' stop getting salty because one person disagrees with you. :rolleyes:

DrinkinMyStella
07-19-2017, 11:36 AM
I agree that there should be some maps with out ledges and environmental kills because of the turtling, unfortunately this is all the WL has so it should be completely taken out but maybe toned down bit.

Rikuto01.tv
07-19-2017, 01:50 PM
Learn to counter guard break and read your opponent?

Also, never attack. If you attack you might get parried which is uncontrollable, and causes instant death. In fact, all the real pros buy plane tickets so they can fly to their opponents house and beat them to death with their control peripherals. That's the only real way to ensure you don't get ledged.

Maaci
07-19-2017, 01:53 PM
We know ledging is a community concern, especially when it comes to modes like Duel that are meant to emphasize personal skill. This is why we made sure in Tournament mode to decrease the amount of environmental opportunities to kill opponents. It certainly wouldn't be out of the question to bring those map changes over to Duel, assuming a large amount of players would welcome the changes. Would love to hear some more feedback regarding this, but let's try and keep the conversation constructive. :)
Environment one shot kills are a useless mechanic and shouldnt exist. Environment that damage someone or zone can be good.
How come this isnt a nobrainer for you guys? I hear arguments from other people that "this is skill, learn how to deal with it" which sounds very narrow minded because everything you do has atleast 1% skill involved, and then they ignore what it adds to the gameplay atall. It adds nothing good for it.

And the fact that this sort of gameplay can be abused aswell. What stops your enemy from standing near a cliff none-stop, and never engaging you?
What they seem to forget is also that one-shotting someone doesnt require much skill either.
Compare one-shotting to having to use the enemy against the enviroment 5times. What requires more skill? What is more fun?

Not sure why you want to hear peoples opinions about this really, why cant your team think on their own and see that its not healhty this one.

EDIT
Also its tiresome to log in here and say my opinion. I rather not waste my time about this stuff, and i say it again, things like this shouldnt require any feedback either..
You should know the answer to this.

StriderBorne
07-19-2017, 04:19 PM
What if the devs - had either a mechanic that would simply not allow someone to be thrown off a lethal ledge, or just use the same map with boxes in front of those areas so they are treated as a wall. Then have a 'no enviro match mode' option to choose from when choosing the game type on duels.

Antonioj26
07-19-2017, 04:43 PM
Still don't get how people are defending this trash mechanic, it's really no different than the warden one shot glitch aside from it being a little more situational and not working on certain maps. I wonder would it make the one shot glitch okay if it only worked under certain circumstances?

CandleInTheDark
07-19-2017, 04:50 PM
If the tournament maps have less of it then yeah I would like to see them in duel though I don't do that as often as dominion so doesn't affect me quite as much.


Another idea would be to include some maps where the ledges and traps aren't instantaneously lethal. Make it so you can smack someone off a ledge for moderate damage, and an opportunity to get a plunging attack if your enemy doesn't get up and out of the way quick enough. This keeps the fight going rather than it being an instant game-over.

Very much this, this would still be there to help say the warlords and raiders and such without being instant death for being half a second late just once.


One thing I would say is that ledges will teach you to re-position yourself as to avoid them and put yourself in a more favourable position.

I think that (and I include myself) become to fixated with the enemy in front, but need to be aware of what is behind and to the side of us. Treat ledges as an extreme wall where if you muck up, it's game over.

At the end of the day, you could have someone practically dead, but until they are you must never switch off. Always be ready.

The problem is some maps make this next to impossible. Take the tower ruin map, one of the zones you are either on a narrow walkway where one mistake equals death or on a balcony. Before charge of the oni was nerfed, shugoki were next to impossible to beat on the walkway area. Another part of that map you're on a bridge where if you stay on it mostly there are no rails, if you come off of it, there is a pond (and no one can swim), that one at least you can squeeze the two of you into a roughly 3x3 foot space, still far from ideal mind. Most rotations on that map, four out of five rounds you have those two zones. I don't mind environmental damage, I am not one of the honour crowd and I will use fire, geysers and buzzsaws, high chances of environmental insta death tends to grate on my nerves, I absolutely hate getting drawn on the tower ruin map or the zone I get either pits or spikes on another.

Maaci
07-19-2017, 05:06 PM
I will make one more post. Before i respond to a player i will come up with something cool for you ubisoft.
An enviroment, lets say a statue that after a set amount of time hits with its weapon, so the player can block it. Something like this could be very exciting imo.
THe enemy could time its own attack with the attack of the statue now for example.....
To be very clear here, IT DOES NOT ONE SHOT YOU lol, not even close to it either.



One thing I would say is that ledges will teach you to re-position yourself as to avoid them and put yourself in a more favourable position.

I think that (and I include myself) become to fixated with the enemy in front, but need to be aware of what is behind and to the side of us. Treat ledges as an extreme wall where if you muck up, it's game over.

At the end of the day, you could have someone practically dead, but until they are you must never switch off. Always be ready.
And why exactly does it have to be a ledge that one shot? Why cant there be something else that damage you instead, or something that puts lava on the ground so it zones an area.
There are so easy solutioons to make the player aware of the environement that doesnt one-shot you and makes the gameplay dull.

Really? You Think that we need one-shot environment because of the reason to make players aware? That makes no sense if that is the case. Because thats what you are arguing indirectly here.

Supercool5150
07-19-2017, 07:29 PM
THUNDER DOME For Duels. Two men enter one man leaves


https://youtu.be/pmRAiUPdRjk

I think that says it all.

watsonclan335u
07-19-2017, 10:03 PM
This is just dumb, everyone here has capitalized on a player that's hung up on ledging by waiting, cg'ing and turning the tables....warden and lb are masters of this. Any of the characters are capable. When I get ledged, I actually chuckle. The important thing to remember is there are tools in place to prevent being ledged, if there wasn't then I'd say help was nesassary but there is so keep your thumb on the yb button and carry on.(or just dodge)

Antonioj26
07-19-2017, 11:07 PM
This is just dumb, everyone here has capitalized on a player that's hung up on ledging by waiting, cg'ing and turning the tables....warden and lb are masters of this. Any of the characters are capable. When I get ledged, I actually chuckle. The important thing to remember is there are tools in place to prevent being ledged, if there wasn't then I'd say help was nesassary but there is so keep your thumb on the yb button and carry on.(or just dodge)

You're right it is dumb, it's incredibly dumb that people are defending this trash mechanic that takes zero skill and can decide a match. What tools does Orochi have against a warlord on the samurai map with the second story stair case? No matter how good you are cgb can still get ledged from a parry, attack, bash, or getting gb during recovery frames. This also creates more turtling. I can't tell you how many times I've been destroying someone in an environmental safe area only for them to run away to a ledge on their last bar and wait to ledge me since I have full health and this is their last ditch effort. Why would you reward such lame tactics?

BLOOD-E-BARON
07-19-2017, 11:38 PM
Don't see a problem with environmental kills, its a legitimate strategy and besides you would effectively be hampering the creative and artistic vision of the dev team by removing it.

Antonioj26
07-19-2017, 11:58 PM
Don't see a problem with environmental kills, its a legitimate strategy and besides you would effectively be hampering the creative and artistic vision of the dev team by removing it.


Don't see a problem with environmental kills, its a legitimate strategy and besides you would effectively be hampering the creative and artistic vision of the dev team by removing it.

Turtling is also a legitimate tactic but the majority of us recognize that it's a problem in this game. Shield bashing people to death with conqueror was also a legitimate tactic before they nerfed it too but since it was so apparent how it favored conqueror so much it the was adjusted. It should be obvious how one sided it is when characters like warlord can push you 7m from any direction and orochis throw Is pretty much non existent. I without exaggeration don't think I've ever been thrown off by an Orochi. there's been many attempts with successful throws but even when it seems I'm one step away I don't fall off.

BLOOD-E-BARON
07-20-2017, 02:21 AM
Turtling is also a legitimate tactic but the majority of us recognize that it's a problem in this game. Shield bashing people to death with conqueror was also a legitimate tactic before they nerfed it too but since it was so apparent how it favored conqueror so much it the was adjusted. It should be obvious how one sided it is when characters like warlord can push you 7m from any direction and orochis throw Is pretty much non existent. I without exaggeration don't think I've ever been thrown off by an Orochi. there's been many attempts with successful throws but even when it seems I'm one step away I don't fall off.

From a character design point of view it kind of makes sense that the warlord has the ability to push his opponents and the orochi is more of a finessed swordsman thus lack of throw ability and this debate over ledging has been going on for a very long time now.
Quite simply in my own opinion I don't mind being environment killed, sure if I left myself in a position to get thrown off, good for them I've been bested by someone who saw an opportunity and took it. The solution shouldn't be nerf X character all the time and as for throws taking no skill to pull off...... absolute hogwash, you need to have a game plan and preempt what the other player is going to do and where they'll be and maybe then you'll get 'ledged'

Would be interesting to see what other suggestions people had in mind other than the obvious remove all ledges.

How about suggesting a separate duel/brawl game mode with a special ruleset with specifically no environment kills that way you could also have a 'classic' game mode with environment kills in all of its glory. I realise this might divide the playerbase but surely the devs could appease all players.

watsonclan335u
07-20-2017, 04:08 AM
You're right it is dumb, it's incredibly dumb that people are defending this trash mechanic that takes zero skill and can decide a match. What tools does Orochi have against a warlord on the samurai map with the second story stair case? No matter how good you are cgb can still get ledged from a parry, attack, bash, or getting gb during recovery frames. This also creates more turtling. I can't tell you how many times I've been destroying someone in an environmental safe area only for them to run away to a ledge on their last bar and wait to ledge me since I have full health and this is their last ditch effort. Why would you reward such lame tactics?


So let me get this straight, you are upset because you spammed an opponent to near death with your faster lights and then he spammed you with a move specialized to that particular character....riiight i get it now. Well maybe we should start a campaign to nerf all lights that are faster than other characters because im offended by being beaten without being able to also spam lights. Give your head a shake.

Antonioj26
07-20-2017, 04:13 AM
So let me get this straight, you are upset because you spammed an opponent to near death with your faster lights and then he spammed you with a move specialized to that particular character....riiight i get it now. Well maybe we should start a campaign to nerf all lights that are faster than other characters because im offended by being beaten without being able to also spam lights. Give your head a shake.

If you want to make up whatever scenario to justify your scrubbery then by all means go ahead. I still don't understand how people can defend one hit kills but whatever, the only reason I can come up with is its there only means of winning.

Antonioj26
07-20-2017, 04:21 AM
From a character design point of view it kind of makes sense that the warlord has the ability to push his opponents and the orochi is more of a finessed swordsman thus lack of throw ability and this debate over ledging has been going on for a very long time now.
Quite simply in my own opinion I don't mind being environment killed, sure if I left myself in a position to get thrown off, good for them I've been bested by someone who saw an opportunity and took it. The solution shouldn't be nerf X character all the time and as for throws taking no skill to pull off...... absolute hogwash, you need to have a game plan and preempt what the other player is going to do and where they'll be and maybe then you'll get 'ledged'

Would be interesting to see what other suggestions people had in mind other than the obvious remove all ledges. It's not Hogwash at all, There are maps where ledges are unavoidable and when you have a character who can ledge you from whatever part of the map you are on then theres no skill involved. Wait to parry or catch him on recovery frames. one button shouldn't mean death

The separate mode would be the best compromise honestly but I doubt it will happen.

How about suggesting a separate duel/brawl game mode with a special ruleset with specifically no environment kills that way you could also have a 'classic' game mode with environment kills in all of its glory. I realise this might divide the playerbase but surely the devs could appease all players.

a separate mode would be a brilliant compromise but highly unlikely. They absolutely don't take skill to pull of especially on maps where ledges are completely unavoidable. No matter where you are on certain maps Warlord can ledge you. It takes just one screw up and then you are dead, that is terrible design.

Charmzzz
07-20-2017, 08:13 AM
So let me get this straight, you are upset because you spammed an opponent to near death with your faster lights and then he spammed you with a move specialized to that particular character....riiight i get it now. Well maybe we should start a campaign to nerf all lights that are faster than other characters because im offended by being beaten without being able to also spam lights. Give your head a shake.

Huh? https://fhtracker.com/profile/psn/watsonclan335u/heroes

Seems like you play "fast" light heroes, too. Anyway, almost every hero in For Honor has a fast light attack. LB and Warden top light is not slower than Orochi, you know?
And do you really compare "spamming" and hitting 10+ light attacks to getting ONE GB into an instakill? Really?

kweassa1
07-20-2017, 08:18 AM
C'mon, boys and girls.... no matter what your stance is on ledge kills, still you gotta admit the design tendencies the devs have shown with duel maps ARE kinda excessive. I mean it's really excessive... It almost feels like they've meticulously and obsessively made sure that every duel map has equal numbers of environment kills in every case.

It's sort of like the irony of "too much variety resulting in no variety..." -- sort of like how modern dramas or movies always make sure certain races/ethnic varieties are always ensured... but when EVERY show or flick does that, it becomes a repetitive pattern of exact same mix of caucasians + blacks + asians + hispanics.... I mean c'mon... sometimes it can be all white people, sometimes all black people, other times only a two-ethnic mix..

...that's kinda what I feel with duel maps. It looks different, but mechanically speaking they're all identical, and they always have environment kills.


C'mon, sometimes you just want to fight in a large, open field or grassy plain.... I mean sometimes I want to be inside a tall wheat field or something... maybe sometimes a slanted hill... just some frickin' VARIETY, please!! :D

PDXGorechild
07-20-2017, 12:36 PM
The irony of the "Git gud" "Learn to play" "Don't let yourself be thrown off a ledge" comments is that I highly suspect the people saying these things have little clue how to play themselves. Every respectable player i've come across in duels makes their way away from traps and ledges, finds the best open area possible (sometimes difficult), salutes and the fight commences.

I think the people defending being ledged are the people who rely on it because they suck at fighting fair. Or perhaps they are young children, who's obsession with winning often overrides every other aspect of the game and saps the fun out of it for everybody else involved.

CandleInTheDark
07-20-2017, 12:51 PM
The irony of the "Git gud" "Learn to play" "Don't let yourself be thrown off a ledge" comments is that I highly suspect the people saying these things have little clue how to play themselves. Every respectable player i've come across in duels makes their way away from traps and ledges, finds the best open area possible (sometimes difficult), salutes and the fight commences.

I think the people defending being ledged are the people who rely on it because they suck at fighting fair. Or perhaps they are young children, who's obsession with winning often overrides every other aspect of the game and saps the fun out of it for everybody else involved.

Eh, I am sort of half of that, I try not to ledge (occasionally it happens by accident like last time I was a shinobi, I couldn't even see the ledge my opponent had his back to) and I try not to revenge (dominion player, hitting revenge is reflex, so I at least don't use it), at the same time I am in no way adverse to using traps that aren't instantly lethal, if you have your back to a buzzsaw, that's on you >.> I'd honestly like less lethal ledges, more like river fort where you survive but you better move quick of the opponent is locked on you and more of a priority on creative hazards than ledges overall.

Rikuto01.tv
07-20-2017, 01:02 PM
In a game like soul calibur ringouts are considered skillful because you don't start next to the ledge. You have to spend the round pushing your opponent towards that ledge or building enough meter that you can get a long distance combo while lining the shot up.

In For Honor, you often start right next to the ledge. Simply poor level design, but these levels were designed with dominion in mind and were repurposed for dueling afterwards. Can't really expect much from that sadly.

Charmzzz
07-20-2017, 02:32 PM
In a game like soul calibur ringouts are considered skillful because you don't start next to the ledge. You have to spend the round pushing your opponent towards that ledge or building enough meter that you can get a long distance combo while lining the shot up.

In For Honor, you often start right next to the ledge. Simply poor level design, but these levels were designed with dominion in mind and were repurposed for dueling afterwards. Can't really expect much from that sadly.

I agree with your first part, but not the second part. Every Dominion map has areas where no environmental is in direct throw range at the start. Ubi decided which parts of those maps they use for Duels. Take the Samurai Elimination / Skirmish map for example, if you duel on it you will have one map consisting ONLY of a bridge and 2 very tiny areas with no direct environmental kill (but every GB ends in a wall stagger...).

Draghmar
07-20-2017, 02:49 PM
In For Honor, you often start right next to the ledge. Simply poor level design, but these levels were designed with dominion in mind and were repurposed for dueling afterwards. Can't really expect much from that sadly.
That would be true if they didn't have tools to change environmental killing things based on the mode. And they can remove fire, spikes or close some ledges. They just decided it would be 'fun' to force you to play with all of those around.