PDA

View Full Version : Nerf Instant-Charges (Video)



cane2simons
07-15-2017, 07:28 PM
Hey, i recently made a post about nerfing instant charges. The original post is here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1705792-Nerf-Instant-Charges?p=12766254#post12766254
Now i uploaded a video so you could see how unfair and overpowered it was. I merely used one tactic, exiting guard mode to force my opponent to make a move, and then punishing that move. Very unfair.
_____
This is a link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4OrN18jCj4&t=288s
_____
Remember to switch to 720p-1080p so you can see whats going on.
_____
I never attacked on my own and only attacked after guard breaking or charging. and on top of that, i only used one of the raiders attacks: The zone. (And i used the light once when i shoved him against a wall) This is not staged, i deliberately showed you me entering the matchmaking queue and waiting. Skip to around 1 minute to skip the queue.
I will gladly upload another video if you think this is fake.
_____
Again, please note I only used one tactic, exiting guard mode and attacking. I played raider alot yesterday using nothing but this tactic and probably only lost 1 out of every 10 duel matches. Literally. Please watch the video Ubisoft, and please rebalance raider and nerf instant-charging. This tactic also works with conqueror and possibly some other heroes.
___
___
___
Community representative states:
"So we've already openly said that we were perhaps too overzealous in our reduction of Raider's stampede charge startup duration and that should be addressed in an updated prior to S3. In its current form, Raider's charge is admittedly a bit over the top, so keep that in mind as well.

As for your suggestion on instant charges, I'll make a note of it to the team so they can take it under consideration. Thanks"
___
^^^
___
^^^
___
^^^
Thank you very much for taking the time to look at my posts. I greatly appreciate it and was hoping someone connected to the developers would see this.

Rikuto01.tv
07-15-2017, 07:43 PM
All he has to do to stop this is hit you when you drop stance.

How is it overpowered? I was killing Shugoki's doing far more exploitable stuff in tournament play and they had a layer of ARMOR on top of it.

Has the PC community become so entirely saturated with parry PTSD that the idea of striking doesn't even enter into their minds anymore?

kweassa1
07-15-2017, 07:50 PM
All he has to do to stop this is hit you.

How is it overpowered? I was killing Shugoki's doing far more exploitable stuff in tournament play and they had a layer of ARMOR on top of it.

1.
It can be a bit "uncomfortable" to people too used to reactive defense-counter attack and "doing only safe things".

The prospect of having to take a "guess" -- so to speak -- and to decide upon whether you want to...

(a) dodge the charge and risk getting GBd if guessed wrong
(b) or assume it's a fake attempt and stand ground and risk getting carried off by the charge if guessed wrong

Like you said, swinging a weapon to stop the charge from happening in the first place is the best bet -- but this is also "uncomfortable" for turtles. They have to open up first and risk the attack being blocked/countered, or when the Raider fakes a stampede charge and swings his own weapon, both attacks are going to clash and will be decided through the delicate timing. All of these are "uncertainties" which people used to turtling are unfamiliar with.

Of course, to the people who use classes that don't have any safe UBUP openers, so who need to ALWAYS risk something with uncertainty, it's a familiar territory.


2.
In terms of skill balance It is a little annoying, but I say we still give it more time. Something tells me despite this wonderful, wonderful buff to the Raider, we aren't exactly going to be seeing charging Raiders take the winner's trophy like charging warlords or "Rungokis" pre-1.04.

If there are suddenly Raiders winning tourneys with the charge move alone, then I'm willing to support a nerf.

As it stands, nope. Because, technically speaking the skill is the exact same thing as Lawb's gut-spearing. Of course gut-spearing can be blocked, which is somewhat noticeable difference, but that doesn't stop some Lawb players from using it quite often...and the gut-spear also activates so fast that it's basically a choice you need to make. I don't see anyone complaining too much about the gut-spear.

Another thing is, the stampede charge loses to almost all other "melee attacks" when both collide at the same time.

So I'm not ready to consider it "OP" yet.


3.
Considering for over 5 months raider players having no 'safe" attacks or "openers" always having to take risks first -- while the other guy just reactively defends and spams his own UB openers -- the video footage actually stimulates some amount of feeling of "payback" :D to a warden, which is oddly satisfying... so I admit I may be a little biased on this issue.

Basically forcing the "I'm gonna do this unblockable, unparriable attack on you, so you make a choice" has been what all the upper-tier classes have done for the last 5 months. So its refreshing to see a Raider do it to them. :D

Rikuto01.tv
07-15-2017, 07:55 PM
Thats the very fundamental principle of fighting game strategy though. Condition your opponent to react a certain way, then switch and exploit that reactions weakness.

In this case, the entire community is conditioned to turtle up like cowards. This response is to use something that punishes turtling.

This tactic itself has a weakness however, and leaves you extremely open. There is nothing overpowered about it, save for your opponent being unable to grasp the concept of actually attacking.

This is stupid. Why should something be nerfed just because players are cowards?

cane2simons
07-15-2017, 08:00 PM
All he has to do to stop this is hit you when you drop stance.

How is it overpowered? I was killing Shugoki's doing far more exploitable stuff in tournament play and they had a layer of ARMOR on top of it.

Has the PC community become so entirely saturated with parry PTSD that the idea of striking doesn't even enter into their minds anymore?

Not true, i could easily enter guard mode right when i get near him and parry his forced attack.

cane2simons
07-15-2017, 08:01 PM
Thats the very fundamental principle of fighting game strategy though. Condition your opponent to react a certain way, then switch and exploit that reactions weakness.

In this case, the entire community is conditioned to turtle up like cowards. This response is to use something that punishes turtling.

This tactic itself has a weakness however, and leaves you extremely open. There is nothing overpowered about it, save for your opponent being unable to grasp the concept of actually attacking.

This is stupid. Why should something be nerfed just because players are cowards?

No, he attacked me. But he had a hard time countering me. attacking or not, are you people idiots? Im showing you evidence of how hard it is to counter and that it needs to be balanced out. Not overpowered and unfair 50/50.

Rikuto01.tv
07-15-2017, 08:03 PM
It still delays your parry reaction, even if its possible. I wouldnt call it easy at all.

And whats to stop him from mixup up with a zone?

Rikuto01.tv
07-15-2017, 08:05 PM
Besides if you hit the charge button, there's going to be a counter-hit in his favor. If you fake out and try to parry, your reaction is still slowed and defense diminished more than normal.

You are forcing a guess to happen, but its not in your favor unless he is determined to take a cowards response to it. The risk is all yours.

kweassa1
07-15-2017, 08:05 PM
No, he attacked me. But he had a hard time countering me. attacking or not, are you people idiots? Im showing you evidence of how hard it is to counter and that it needs to be balanced out. Not overpowered and unfair 50/50.

Tell us we're idiots after the next big tournament. Not after only 2~3 days which many people are still unfamiliar with possible counters.


How many people cried "OP" to the centurion right after season2, but then had to eat their words in the next two weeks after he was ruled mediocre in 1v1?

Give it time.

CandleInTheDark
07-15-2017, 08:11 PM
Hey, i recently made a post about nerfing instant charges. The original post is here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1705792-Nerf-Instant-Charges?p=12766254#post12766254
Now i uploaded a video so you could see how unfair and overpowered it was. I merely used one tactic, exiting guard mode to force my opponent to make a move, and then punishing that move. Very unfair.

Recently as in fifteen hours ago, still on the top page and I note you posted this video as the last post in that thread. At this point you are pretty much spamming.

cane2simons
07-15-2017, 08:13 PM
Thats the very fundamental principle of fighting game strategy though. Condition your opponent to react a certain way, then switch and exploit that reactions weakness.

In this case, the entire community is conditioned to turtle up like cowards. This response is to use something that punishes turtling.

This tactic itself has a weakness however, and leaves you extremely open. There is nothing overpowered about it, save for your opponent being unable to grasp the concept of actually attacking.

This is stupid. Why should something be nerfed just because players are cowards?

Ubi nerfed wardens shoulder bash SPECIFICALLY because they said: "We do not want to encourage a playstyle where you use something, force a reaction, and punish that reaction"
_

PATCH NOTES – V1.06
Ubisoft states: "We want Wardens to put a lot of pressure on their opponent with this move, but we don't want them to have such an advantage that they can force a response, react to the response, and punish the response."
_
Now raider can do the same thing by exiting guard mode and doing the instant charge spam technique, as in the video posted above, i forced my opponent to make a reaction, and punished that reaction.

kweassa1
07-15-2017, 08:20 PM
Ubi nerfed wardens shoulder bash SPECIFICALLY because they said: "We do not want to encourage a playstyle where you use something, force a reaction, and punish that reaction"

Except it's still possible, but only through by guessing, not upon observation+reaction. I don't see any "reaction" based attempts in your vid, as in you force the guy into a dodge by already showing him an incoming UB and then GBing it after he saw it and dodged it, like how old SB worked.

Not to mention the warden clearly wasn't familiar with the new raider tactic. That's why you need to GIVE IT TIME.


Show me raiders winning tourneys by just spamming that one tactic alone, like how warlords or Rungokis used to do. Then I'll rightfully support a nerf.

But not before.

Lyskir
07-15-2017, 08:37 PM
Except it's still possible, but only through by guessing, not upon observation+reaction. I don't see any "reaction" based attempts in your vid, as in you force the guy into a dodge by already showing him an incoming UB and then GBing it after he saw it and dodged it, like how old SB worked.

Not to mention the warden clearly wasn't familiar with the new raider tactic. That's why you need to GIVE IT TIME.


Show me raiders winning tourneys by just spamming that one tactic alone, like how warlords or Rungokis used to do. Then I'll rightfully support a nerf.

But not before.

this

TheTool85
07-15-2017, 09:04 PM
Yeah. Nerf raider. How can a raider main even dare to have a chance in battle while all these zerkers, kenseis, orochis, cents, wardens, shins and warlords are soooo well balanced...

Lyskir
07-15-2017, 09:14 PM
so ....they banned raider from the quali tournament today without even knowing if its op against high skill players or not


warlord has the same bs but without the stamina drain but with a free heavy when the enemy is throw against a wall what is 90% of the time because the throw distance is so long


warlord wins almost every tournament since beta but they dont even thinking about to nerf him...like wtf


nerf the fkcing stampede to 600 ms and stfu, im sick of these double standards

cane2simons
07-15-2017, 09:36 PM
Except it's still possible, but only through by guessing, not upon observation+reaction. I don't see any "reaction" based attempts in your vid, as in you force the guy into a dodge by already showing him an incoming UB and then GBing it after he saw it and dodged it, like how old SB worked.

Not to mention the warden clearly wasn't familiar with the new raider tactic. That's why you need to GIVE IT TIME.


Show me raiders winning tourneys by just spamming that one tactic alone, like how warlords or Rungokis used to do. Then I'll rightfully support a nerf.

But not before.

I used the tactic, as said before, and won 9 out of every 10 duels merely using that tactic. Its a 50/50. Give it time? Im very familiar with the tactic and its still hard to avoid. I would love to see you fight a raider that uses the same tactic and win.
That's usually always the answer. "give it time" The longer you give it time the more players leave. As you've just seen the warden ragequit right after that. Because i used an unfair, low risk, high reward tactic.

CandleInTheDark
07-15-2017, 09:53 PM
And spamming the forums with two threads, the second while the first was on the top page, posting the same video in each helps how?

watsonclan335u
07-15-2017, 10:19 PM
I used the tactic, as said before, and won 9 out of every 10 duels merely using that tactic. Its a 50/50. Give it time? Im very familiar with the tactic and its still hard to avoid. I would love to see you fight a raider that uses the same tactic and win.
That's usually always the answer. "give it time" The longer you give it time the more players leave. As you've just seen the warden ragequit right after that. Because i used an unfair, low risk, high reward tactic.

Wow your video shows nothing except that you fought a very green warden, first off how much damage was done to the warden when you opened him up with the charge? Yup thats right, almost nothing. Second, you used your zone attack as a follow up to the charge to show how OP the charge was when in fact almost anyone in this game can parry the UB, had this been a decent warden the UB's would have been parried and you'd have ended up dead or retreating. Third, what planet can you compare a wardens vortex to a SINGLE opening move? The charge is limited to how much follow up damage(because the charge itself does sweet FA)can be dealt post charge and I can assure you its not much, maybe one or two lights max. So next time you make a video maybe have your bro actually pretend to fight back against your amazing set of Raider skills and I will treat you more seriously.

vgrimr_J
07-15-2017, 10:50 PM
this and warlord bs needs to be taken down asap

CandleInTheDark
07-15-2017, 10:54 PM
Wow your video shows nothing except that you fought a very green warden, first off how much damage was done to the warden when you opened him up with the charge? Yup thats right, almost nothing. Second, you used your zone attack as a follow up to the charge to show how OP the charge was when in fact almost anyone in this game can parry the UB, had this been a decent warden the UB's would have been parried and you'd have ended up dead or retreating. Third, what planet can you compare a wardens vortex to a SINGLE opening move? The charge is limited to how much follow up damage(because the charge itself does sweet FA)can be dealt post charge and I can assure you its not much, maybe one or two lights max. So next time you make a video maybe have your bro actually pretend to fight back against your amazing set of Raider skills and I will treat you more seriously.

Funny story, people need to be careful about videos in general. Back when peacekeepers were getting a delete thread every week, someone posted a video of one of the streamers who did the I'm going to take a peacekeeper into a tournament to prove anyone can do it with no practice. The sheep who posted it did so not realising that hey the streamer had done eleven different offensive and defensive moves, all needing different timings with no light spam, what the poster was saying it showed, among it.

Gray360UK
07-15-2017, 11:17 PM
Have I really lived long enough to see Raider get banned from Tournaments for being OP? The Peacekeeper in me is having flashbacks. ;)

UbiNoty
07-15-2017, 11:20 PM
So we've already openly said that we were perhaps too overzealous in our reduction of Raider's stampede charge startup duration and that should be addressed in an updated prior to S3. In its current form, Raider's charge is admittedly a bit over the top, so keep that in mind as well.

As for your suggestion on instant charges, I'll make a note of it to the team so they can take it under consideration. Thanks :)

CandleInTheDark
07-15-2017, 11:32 PM
So we've already openly said that we were perhaps too overzealous in our reduction of Raider's stampede charge startup duration and that should be addressed in an updated prior to S3. In its current form, Raider's charge is admittedly a bit over the top, so keep that in mind as well.

As for your suggestion on instant charges, I'll make a note of it to the team so they can take it under consideration. Thanks :)

I'm not sure that people can say it is actually overpowered without giving it time since the console doesn't even have the patch yet (as much as like Gray I am very much having flashbacks here and I hope any who were cheerleading the delete the peacekeeper posters are taking note how easily it turns). The tracking definitely needed dealing with and if anything 700 was perhaps a little slow. On the one hand 500 was deemed too quick for recovery between a peacekeeper's interrupted chain into the next but on the other we're talking about something that unless you're close enough to a wall is only really going to do stam damage.

Might be 500 ms is too quick, but until there has been time on the console which seems to have issues with this kind of thing more, I would be hesitant about saying it needs rolling back or how much, as it is currently I find dodging it not to be all too difficult.

Lyskir
07-15-2017, 11:40 PM
So we've already openly said that we were perhaps too overzealous in our reduction of Raider's stampede charge startup duration and that should be addressed in an updated prior to S3. In its current form, Raider's charge is admittedly a bit over the top, so keep that in mind as well.

As for your suggestion on instant charges, I'll make a note of it to the team so they can take it under consideration. Thanks :)

pls dont make stampede useless again...make it to 600ms i guess will be finde that way

cane2simons
07-16-2017, 03:23 AM
So we've already openly said that we were perhaps too overzealous in our reduction of Raider's stampede charge startup duration and that should be addressed in an updated prior to S3. In its current form, Raider's charge is admittedly a bit over the top, so keep that in mind as well.

As for your suggestion on instant charges, I'll make a note of it to the team so they can take it under consideration. Thanks :)

Thank you very much for replying and taking the time to look at my post.

Vakris_One
07-16-2017, 11:52 AM
The Raider's charge was a well known issue in the recent private beta on PC (the one with the completely non-functional ranked mode). His charge up literally takes 1 frame. One.

How did this get past both the Ubi devs and their internal QA team? Let alone get into the live game after it was reported by players during the recent beta? The damn gif of Raider's 1 frame charge was doing the rounds all over the Hall of Heroes Discord. Come on devs, get your stuff together please.

kweassa1
07-16-2017, 11:59 AM
The Raider's charge was a well known issue in the recent private beta on PC (the one with the completely non-functional ranked mode). His charge up literally takes 1 frame. One.

How did this get past both the Ubi devs and their internal QA team? Let alone get into the live game after it was reported by players during the recent beta? The damn gif of Raider's 1 frame charge was doing the rounds all over the Hall of Heroes Discord. Come on devs, get your stuff together please.

500ms is 30 frames, not 1. It's the same as conq shieldbash and warlord headbutt.

Vakris_One
07-16-2017, 12:16 PM
500ms is 30 frames, not 1. It's the same as conq shieldbash and warlord headbutt.
It's a little faster that both the shield bash and the headbutt actually if we discount the time it takes to drop lock on and start a sprint.

https://youtu.be/We2YDX7W6e8

^ That has not changed since the beta. How many frames exactly doesn't really interest me. The fact is the Raider's charge up (upon first starting to run) now takes around 2 seconds at best. In a tight space reaction times are less than a shield bash/headbutt as you can clearly see in that video. In any case it is broken and the devs let it through to the live game even after it was reported. That's pretty crap tbh.

CandleInTheDark
07-16-2017, 12:25 PM
I don't see hyper armour on that charge, so an attack stops it. For that matter if they have your back to you unlocked and you don't think you can get an attack in then if you are set on turttling you should have been backing off or even rolling back to give yourself more distance to have time to dodge when he sprints, standing there was always going to end poorly. Most if the complaints on any character, not just talking raider, let's say peacekeeper, centurion and shinobi for attacks and those with 50/50's like wardens and lawbringers, have come because people can't stand that there is a means of breaking turtles.

The defensive meta is ending soon and it can't come soon enough.

Vakris_One
07-16-2017, 12:45 PM
I don't see hyper armour on that charge, so an attack stops it. For that matter if they have your back to you unlocked and you don't think you can get an attack in then if you are set on turttling you should have been backing off or even rolling back to give yourself more distance to have time to dodge when he sprints, standing there was always going to end poorly. Most if the complaints on any character, not just talking raider, let's say peacekeeper, centurion and shinobi for attacks and those with 50/50's like wardens and lawbringers, have come because people can't stand that there is a means of breaking turtles.

The defensive meta is ending soon and it can't come soon enough.
You won't end the defensive meta by using/supporting broken mechanics - that merely creates a further toxic atmosphere and kills the game faster. The Raider takes one step into his sprint and he can immediately initiate Raider charge. That is broken.

Fixing the defensive meta is going to need an overhaul of the way fights work in this game, i.e. a concerted effort by the devs. It's not going to come from giving most characters a set of cheap and/or broken spammable moves or 50/50s which are basically luck based - two wrongs don't make a right.

CandleInTheDark
07-16-2017, 01:09 PM
You won't end the defensive meta by using/supporting broken mechanics - that merely creates a further toxic atmosphere and kills the game faster. The Raider takes one step into his sprint and he can immediately initiate Raider charge. That is broken.

Fixing the defensive meta is going to need an overhaul of the way fights work in this game, i.e. a concerted effort by the devs. It's not going to come from giving most characters a set of cheap and/or broken spammable moves or 50/50s which are basically luck based - two wrongs don't make a right.

They have an overhaul coming which they are testing at the end of the month, I think they said they might give details next week, so we will see what they have been working on for the last couple months.

50/50's aren't going away, the Dens over the last couple months and the changes seem to suggest that if anything we might see a few more. I do not believe that they are luck based come to that, people talk about mindgames as with the kensei and their feints and videos from streamers since the very beginning have talked about conditioning their opponent, making someone think you are always going to do one thing and at the right time taking advantage of that, there is no luck about that.

As for the charge, if you keep the pressure on they can't do that, if you back off, you have more time to react but you have to accept that you have less chance of baiting a parry, like I said maybe 500ms is a little much, personally I think 700 is too slow but I suspect those who are more mobile and more positive will have less problems than people who want to stand in weapon range and wait for a chance at free damage. It isn't much difference to the warlord headbutt and honestly I have very few problems with that.

watsonclan335u
07-17-2017, 11:35 PM
500ms is 30 frames, not 1. It's the same as conq shieldbash and warlord headbutt.

So if it lights roughly the same as the headbutt and or shieldbash then what's the problem? Cmon really. Also we still have no idea how this will fit into console gameplay yet.

UbiJurassic
07-18-2017, 12:48 AM
We'll have some changes coming to the charge in the very near future, with more concrete details later this week.

C00tBAjenkins
07-18-2017, 01:19 AM
I think it's funny watching all these Raiders in dominion stampede charging all over. One match I watched one do nothing but that. They still missed very often and my teammates would wail on them when it did connect. Not a huge deal that i have seen but I never play duel.

Aarpian
07-18-2017, 02:06 PM
So we've already openly said that we were perhaps too overzealous in our reduction of Raider's stampede charge startup duration and that should be addressed in an updated prior to S3. In its current form, Raider's charge is admittedly a bit over the top, so keep that in mind as well.

As for your suggestion on instant charges, I'll make a note of it to the team so they can take it under consideration. Thanks :)

Sprint attacks in general need to be nerfed into the ****ing ground. You need to stop encouraging players unlocking and utilising sprint attacks in the middle of a fight because it's optimal. Full stop.

Get rid of unblockable sprint attacks that grant free damage, it's ridiculous - sprint attacks should be for blindsiding some poor inconspicuous sap or attacking fleeing enemies, not as a core facet of a 1v1 face-off.

cane2simons
07-21-2017, 08:45 AM
Sprint attacks in general need to be nerfed into the ****ing ground. You need to stop encouraging players unlocking and utilising sprint attacks in the middle of a fight because it's optimal. Full stop.

Get rid of unblockable sprint attacks that grant free damage, it's ridiculous - sprint attacks should be for blindsiding some poor inconspicuous sap or attacking fleeing enemies, not as a core facet of a 1v1 face-off.

Very. Very agreed.

Lyskir
07-21-2017, 10:26 AM
Sprint attacks in general need to be nerfed into the ****ing ground. You need to stop encouraging players unlocking and utilising sprint attacks in the middle of a fight because it's optimal. Full stop.

Get rid of unblockable sprint attacks that grant free damage, it's ridiculous - sprint attacks should be for blindsiding some poor inconspicuous sap or attacking fleeing enemies, not as a core facet of a 1v1 face-off.

and get rid of free dmg from unblockables like cent kick/headbutt/shouderbash and shieldbash or flicker zones ;)