PDA

View Full Version : Why is conqueror so poor designed ?



Jarl.Felix
07-01-2017, 08:41 PM
I know this is a lame question regarding the fact it's an Ubisoft game but still : WHY IF YOU PARRY WITH CONQ you almost 90% time you give them a parry-able move ?

You parry, he instantly goes for a heavy attack in that direction which is so slow and EASY TO PARRY !

What's the point ? I always wondered.

Just to parry and give him the option to parry you instantly ?

RatedChaotic
07-01-2017, 09:27 PM
Omg tell me about it. I've mained him in the Closed Beta, Open Beta, and now. He was able to dominate in the past if you knew what your doing. But now I just cant enjoy playing him. He was kinda dull at first but manageable. Now hes just a metal box that moves. Playing him makes me feel like that car we all used to beat up at homecoming rallies.

I think someone needs to take that Cent love and apply it to the Conq. Personally I think the Conq couldve used something like the cent has ........Deal with it...Dev...

UbiJurassic
07-01-2017, 10:19 PM
Its no secret amongst the community that the conqueror needs some love and attention from the team. However, we've been reluctant to make changes due the conqueror's heavy reliance on defensive play. With the defensive patch still planned for release, we want to know what changes conqueror is going to need in the new, more offensive environment.

C00tBAjenkins
07-02-2017, 01:31 AM
Omg tell me about it. I've mained him in the Closed Beta, Open Beta, and now. He was able to dominate in the past if you knew what your doing. But now I just cant enjoy playing him. He was kinda dull at first but manageable. Now hes just a metal box that moves. Playing him makes me feel like that car we all used to beat up at homecoming rallies.

I think someone needs to take that Cent love and apply it to the Conq. Personally I think the Conq couldve used something like the cent has ........Deal with it...Dev...
I still main him 100% in pvp. Until rep 30 atleast. In dominion he is alright. I'd really like to see him buffed somewhat but that's gonna be awhile it seems. Untill then, I'll shieldbash my way to 30.

Titanodragon
07-02-2017, 01:32 AM
Its no secret amongst the community that the conqueror needs some love and attention from the team. However, we've been reluctant to make changes due the conqueror's heavy reliance on defensive play. With the defensive patch still planned for release, we want to know what changes conqueror is going to need in the new, more offensive environment.

I feel like you all at Ubisoft don't know what you're doing and just keep saying he needs love but you still Nerf him (his healing feat this time). Before you buff him are you all sure you don't want to take his shield away? Or will that be in season 3 also?

MasterChiefPON
07-02-2017, 01:36 AM
I feel like you all at Ubisoft don't know what you're doing and just keep saying he needs love but you still Nerf him (his healing feat this time). Before you buff him are you all sure you don't want to take his shield away? Or will that be in season 3 also?

There's a difference between Conqueror needing love and balancing feats.

Titanodragon
07-02-2017, 01:40 AM
There's a difference between Conqueror needing love and balancing feats.

Was that feat really a problem though?

kweassa1
07-02-2017, 01:48 AM
I know this is a lame question regarding the fact it's an Ubisoft game but still : WHY IF YOU PARRY WITH CONQ you almost 90% time you give them a parry-able move ?

You parry, he instantly goes for a heavy attack in that direction which is so slow and EASY TO PARRY !

What's the point ? I always wondered.

Just to parry and give him the option to parry you instantly ?

..honestly it's really hard to understand just what you're complaining about because you're mixing up "he" and "you" in a messy manner.
Are you complaining about how a conq can't hit anyone with a heavy attack when you parry an incoming attack?

But why would you want to parry anything with a conq in the first place?


Besides, I'm not sure if you can call it "poorly designed". I'll definitely agree to it being "too simplistic and not very fun", but the design itself is very effective... almost TOO effective, IMO.

AzureSky.
07-02-2017, 01:54 AM
Well what did you expect? some characters are actually well designed, some nots, this is not Arc System Works (Guilty Gear creators) you cant expect a perfect design in every character on a fighting game :P some get a rework in a future patch.

Jarl.Felix
07-02-2017, 09:27 AM
..honestly it's really hard to understand just what you're complaining about because you're mixing up "he" and "you" in a messy manner.
Are you complaining about how a conq can't hit anyone with a heavy attack when you parry an incoming attack?

But why would you want to parry anything with a conq in the first place?


Besides, I'm not sure if you can call it "poorly designed". I'll definitely agree to it being "too simplistic and not very fun", but the design itself is very effective... almost TOO effective, IMO.

You = yourself
He = enemy

If you played conq you should know what I'm talking about.

And please, dont tell me you don't parry with conqueror =))

ShonM93
07-02-2017, 10:06 AM
You = yourself
He = enemy

If you played conq you should know what I'm talking about.

And please, dont tell me you don't parry with conqueror =))

Of course you don't parry. Why would you? It's basicly an useless mechanic for conq, you only parry unblockables (but there is a pretty big chance it's better to just dodge away). You use the superior block passive to get free gb-s on heavy, you use the superior block heavy startup to hit slower chars with a heavy. You don't use the charged heavy unless you want to bait your enemy or you want to get raped, you dash into your enemy face, if he dodges you gb him, if don't then bash him and light (or heavy if they're too bad to block it). Conq is a beast in good hands, and a punchbag in bad hands (as long as you know what he is capable to do). He's desing is simple as hell, and a decent conq will be always in a better position than any other char with a decent player behind it. And tbh, a god tier conq player is only beatable by an other conq, or a god tier Nobu. Nobu is strong as hell if you can play her right.

Mia.Nora
07-02-2017, 10:19 AM
Of course you don't parry. Why would you? It's basicly an useless mechanic for conq, you only parry unblockables (but there is a pretty big chance it's better to just dodge away). You use the superior block passive to get free gb-s on heavy, you use the superior block heavy startup to hit slower chars with a heavy. You don't use the charged heavy unless you want to bait your enemy or you want to get raped, you dash into your enemy face, if he dodges you gb him, if don't then bash him and light (or heavy if they're too bad to block it). Conq is a beast in good hands, and a punchbag in bad hands (as long as you know what he is capable to do). He's desing is simple as hell, and a decent conq will be always in a better position than any other char with a decent player behind it. And tbh, a god tier conq player is only beatable by an other conq, or a god tier Nobu. Nobu is strong as hell if you can play her right.

Do you even play the game? vs bots what you say works. Vs any decent player no idiot will actually throw a heavy at you so that you can just block>GB. They will just feint a few to see your reaction then switch to just using unblockables and lights. And as conq YOU HAVE TO PARRY LIGHTS, otherwise they will eat you away slowly.

You already discredited yourself by saying to heavy after bash, everyone parries that; but still I would like to hear what you mean by bolded part. You dash and mid dash you GB? Let's say it worked once, it would never work twice same person, so now what? You left to bash>light and parrying lights again

Anyway you are clearly full of ****.

ShonM93
07-02-2017, 01:15 PM
Do you even play the game? vs bots what you say works. Vs any decent player no idiot will actually throw a heavy at you so that you can just block>GB. They will just feint a few to see your reaction then switch to just using unblockables and lights. And as conq YOU HAVE TO PARRY LIGHTS, otherwise they will eat you away slowly.

You already discredited yourself by saying to heavy after bash, everyone parries that; but still I would like to hear what you mean by bolded part. You dash and mid dash you GB? Let's say it worked once, it would never work twice same person, so now what? You left to bash>light and parrying lights again

Anyway you are clearly full of ****.

First of all, i'm a conq main, secondly you're on the forums, show respect to others (it's in the rules).
The heavy after bash part is clearly said, "IF YOUR OPPONENT IS TOO BAD TO BLOCK IT" so, maybe think before write.
About the bolded part: you can start the bash pretty late, basicly in you're opponent face, which is reactable, by only someone who expects it. If he pre dodges you just gb him, it's basicly a 50/50, but of course it's not as good as a warden or lb 50/50 but it's still viable.
An other thing: feinting against conq for reaction. What reaction? That he pulls his stance to match the feint? That's some serious reaction. Feinting unblockables are usefull, don't get me wrong, and normal feints too, but not for "reaction", it's only usefull for distraction.

Maybe get down from the high horse m8, 'cause you make a fool out of yourself.

kweassa1
07-02-2017, 03:26 PM
First of all, i'm a conq main, secondly you're on the forums, show respect to others (it's in the rules).
The heavy after bash part is clearly said, "IF YOUR OPPONENT IS TOO BAD TO BLOCK IT" so, maybe think before write.
About the bolded part: you can start the bash pretty late, basicly in you're opponent face, which is reactable, by only someone who expects it. If he pre dodges you just gb him, it's basicly a 50/50, but of course it's not as good as a warden or lb 50/50 but it's still viable.
An other thing: feinting against conq for reaction. What reaction? That he pulls his stance to match the feint? That's some serious reaction. Feinting unblockables are usefull, don't get me wrong, and normal feints too, but not for "reaction", it's only usefull for distraction.

Maybe get down from the high horse m8, 'cause you make a fool out of yourself.

...which is basically why I asked the op why he'd want to parry with a conq. It's certainly possibloe, and useful if you're in need to defend against incoming UB attacks, but the biggest class trait of the conq is the superior block. Almost completely shuts off opponent heavies.. and leaves them very little stuff to use to open up.

Feints? Who cares about feints? Why react to feint in the first place with a conq? I'll agree that the conq has too limited a combat pattern, too defensive and reactive, but as long the class is set this way, all you need is your shield for defense.

The things you mention are very basic tactics of conqs. I'm surprised he's asking you if you play the game, when clearly he doesn't know whole that much about conqs at all. LOL :rolleyes:

RatedChaotic
07-02-2017, 03:57 PM
Parried a guy with my Conq went right into shield bash into light attack chain. Flawless victory. 7 hit light attack chain. It was funny as hell. Felt sorry for the guy. I got a nice video of it.

There are times where it can be quite useful. I parry just to suck away their stam and to give a me a sec to recoupe and reaccess the fight.

Jarl.Felix
07-02-2017, 10:10 PM
...which is basically why I asked the op why he'd want to parry with a conq. It's certainly possibloe, and useful if you're in need to defend against incoming UB attacks, but the biggest class trait of the conq is the superior block. Almost completely shuts off opponent heavies.. and leaves them very little stuff to use to open up.

Feints? Who cares about feints? Why react to feint in the first place with a conq? I'll agree that the conq has too limited a combat pattern, too defensive and reactive, but as long the class is set this way, all you need is your shield for defense.

The things you mention are very basic tactics of conqs. I'm surprised he's asking you if you play the game, when clearly he doesn't know whole that much about conqs at all. LOL :rolleyes:

So you have 200 player kills , 545 deaths and 17 hours spent with conq and you lecture me...

I dont even bother, but remember this : in dominion matches you are NOTHING without parry.

Antonioj26
07-02-2017, 10:27 PM
What's your question? It's not exactly clear. It sounds like you are irritated that you don't get a free heavy on parries but that's wrong. You get a free heavy on lights and a gb on heavies. I can't think of anyone who gets a heavy on a heavy parry except for cent.

Mia.Nora
07-02-2017, 11:29 PM
First of all, i'm a conq main, secondly you're on the forums, show respect to others (it's in the rules).
The heavy after bash part is clearly said, "IF YOUR OPPONENT IS TOO BAD TO BLOCK IT" so, maybe think before write.
About the bolded part: you can start the bash pretty late, basicly in you're opponent face, which is reactable, by only someone who expects it. If he pre dodges you just gb him, it's basicly a 50/50, but of course it's not as good as a warden or lb 50/50 but it's still viable.
An other thing: feinting against conq for reaction. What reaction? That he pulls his stance to match the feint? That's some serious reaction. Feinting unblockables are usefull, don't get me wrong, and normal feints too, but not for "reaction", it's only usefull for distraction.

Maybe get down from the high horse m8, 'cause you make a fool out of yourself.

Hyperbole much? I said feints to check whether you attempt to parry or heavy with startup block property, I always do vs conqs, so does pretty much everyone I encountered and that is the only heavy that happens whole fight so no block>GB whole fight at all. You make all your points on how an amazing playing conqueror can be a beast, then you go on by explaining with things that only works against the worst of the worst players, who cant even block a heavy after a neutral dash?

No offense (and if you get offended by that it is your problem), when you suggest that he works like a beast when you play like a MGL player vs a total noob who cant even block... What am I supposed to make of that? Like really.. You are giving me advice that works against a guy, who cant not just parry but even cant block conq heavy?? Anyone can beat that guy using a captain, you dont need a hero for that.

And the 50/50 you talk about. You avoided my point about it. Lets say you made it work once. you got 25 damage out of the GB. From that point on everytime you forward dash he can just GB and out damage you. Conq GB>heavy is less then what every single hero gets out of a GB. Lets say you decided to just focus on dashes for amazing 12 damage everytime instead since now he is a tool who only GBs your dashes. Now the moment he reverts to lights the moment you dash forward you will lose that trade no matter what you do, dash or GB. you will eat that light. Go ahead go on a freindly match with a buddy and forward dash into bash/GB and see that lights beat both. If your opponent is bad enough to adapt to that simple strategy again.. it means your opponent is just plain bad compared to you, not that this hero is balanced.

You might be a conq main, but with my rep7 conq I clearly understand him better than you. And I am not saying I play better than you, I understand how mechanics interact and how little you gets out of the risk you are taking, creating a big picture you lose more after enough trades where you have been %50 successful. And that extra bit HP wont cover up that cost neither.

timur_the_boss
07-03-2017, 02:45 AM
Its no secret amongst the community that the conqueror needs some love and attention from the team. However, we've been reluctant to make changes due the conqueror's heavy reliance on defensive play. With the defensive patch still planned for release, we want to know what changes conqueror is going to need in the new, more offensive environment.


Other than the fact that the conqueror light attacks all they do is tickle the opponents balls, and you can't parry while swinging the flail like wtf? he's my favourite champ in game, I'm close to 6 rep with him but seriously, Buff him and nerf that piece of **** Centurion.

ShonM93
07-03-2017, 09:49 AM
Hyperbole much? I said feints to check whether you attempt to parry or heavy with startup block property, I always do vs conqs, so does pretty much everyone I encountered and that is the only heavy that happens whole fight so no block>GB whole fight at all. You make all your points on how an amazing playing conqueror can be a beast, then you go on by explaining with things that only works against the worst of the worst players, who cant even block a heavy after a neutral dash?

No offense (and if you get offended by that it is your problem), when you suggest that he works like a beast when you play like a MGL player vs a total noob who cant even block... What am I supposed to make of that? Like really.. You are giving me advice that works against a guy, who cant not just parry but even cant block conq heavy?? Anyone can beat that guy using a captain, you dont need a hero for that.

And the 50/50 you talk about. You avoided my point about it. Lets say you made it work once. you got 25 damage out of the GB. From that point on everytime you forward dash he can just GB and out damage you. Conq GB>heavy is less then what every single hero gets out of a GB. Lets say you decided to just focus on dashes for amazing 12 damage everytime instead since now he is a tool who only GBs your dashes. Now the moment he reverts to lights the moment you dash forward you will lose that trade no matter what you do, dash or GB. you will eat that light. Go ahead go on a freindly match with a buddy and forward dash into bash/GB and see that lights beat both. If your opponent is bad enough to adapt to that simple strategy again.. it means your opponent is just plain bad compared to you, not that this hero is balanced.

You might be a conq main, but with my rep7 conq I clearly understand him better than you. And I am not saying I play better than you, I understand how mechanics interact and how little you gets out of the risk you are taking, creating a big picture you lose more after enough trades where you have been %50 successful. And that extra bit HP wont cover up that cost neither.

After cheking your stats and comparing it to mine, i'm pretty sure that you don't really have an idea about conq, so i'll finish this little conversation here. Thanks for the show tho!

IlMacgyverIl
07-04-2017, 06:14 AM
I know this is a lame question regarding the fact it's an Ubisoft game but still : WHY IF YOU PARRY WITH CONQ you almost 90% time you give them a parry-able move ?

You parry, he instantly goes for a heavy attack in that direction which is so slow and EASY TO PARRY !

What's the point ? I always wondered.

Just to parry and give him the option to parry you instantly ?

Guys think about it. He has a flail and shield.
There's not really much you can do with that weapon setup. Swing this way... Swing that way. Swing harder.
He's wearing heavy armor, and carrying a frickin' shield... He can't really flop around like like a shinobi or anything.

They would really have to redesign him to give him more options...

But I can hear it now.
"Conqueror got a rework, rework this character too!!"

"Wah, wah, wah he's too OP now!!

They already mentioned that they will modify him after the defensive meta is addressed.
This is going to be a big step for the game. (Hopefully)

I'm just kicking back, and waiting to see what happens. I enjoy the game, even with the flaws.

Halvtand
07-04-2017, 10:55 AM
Conq actually has a really cool concept, and one that you can do a lot with. The problem is that nothing he is or does is special or even works to his advantage.

Conq is by far the most defensive of the heroes, no argument there, right?
What's the problem with this? He's not inherently better at defending than any other hero. While the assassins may have the twitch-block as kind of a drawback, nothing is really stopping them from being as good at blocking incoming attacks as the Conq. They even get the same chain-block against multiple attacks as the Conq. Sure, he has the all-block stance, but that drains stamina and doesn't give him a decent follow-up. So he's basically paying for the same blocking ability he and everyone else has, and doesn't gain anything other than a short break from moving his block.

The flail
The flail is a predictable weapon, that is very true. But the fact that you know what is going to happen doesn't always mean that you can do anything about it. Just ask anyone who has been on the wrong end of a Centurion's charged heavy. Chain-weapons are notoriously hard to block since you absolutely have to block the head of it. Try to block the chain and you have no idea what's going to happen. This is not represented in the game at all.
Early in the game's development there really wasn't a way to do this, but now several people have hyperarmour, which would be a good way to represent how the weapon will keep going even if its wielder is stopped.

Speed and damage
This is just bad and needs to be tweaked. I know that he is slow and hits like a weakling because he's supposed to defend, but since we are trying to break the defensive meta we have to give him viable attacks. He's already falling behind despite his supposed role as the best defender, if the game takes a turn for the offensive we might as well stop playing him.