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DaLast_Samurai
06-26-2017, 08:55 PM
One week newb, just trying to understand things I'm reading on here.

What does the term "defense meta" mean?
Thanks.

AzureSky.
06-26-2017, 09:12 PM
It means that people just defend and go for the parry instead of attacking.

the worst offenders are the heros that have abilitys that empower that way of playing (like lawbringer block and shove into 50/50) or have a safe way to go around it (warlord)

MasterChiefPON
06-26-2017, 09:37 PM
I answered you in your Orochi post :)

Gray360UK
06-26-2017, 09:39 PM
As above. Also known an the turtle meta. Doesn't necessarily involve hiding behind a shield, any class can turtle even if they are not explicitly a defensive class. It's more about playing in a way that capitalizes on the advantages you gain if you wait for your opponent to attack first. Some classes have powerful moves that are only useable after a successful parry, or after a block, or a deflect. Obviously these moves rely on an incoming attack.

The problem is that this 'meta' (optimal strategy) leads to both sides not wanting to attack and so combat grinds to a halt, the 'staring contest' you will see many people mention. In a fighting game you would think attacking is the whole idea, and obviously being punished by a turtle for attacking while they just wait for you to do something gets very frustrating.

This is mostly a problem in Duels and doesn't really affect the 4 vs 4 modes as much.

UbiJurassic
06-27-2017, 02:19 AM
The above comments summarize the defense meta very well. It's something the team has been looking to address since we first became aware of it in Season 1. During our last in-depth talk about it a defense meta patch, our game directors stated a few ways we may be looking to solve the meta issue, such as making Out of Stamina state more dangerous, decreasing the rewards of parrying and implementing more ways for offensive heroes to open up a turtling opponent.

AzureSky.
06-27-2017, 03:53 AM
The above comments summarize the defense meta very well. It's something the team has been looking to address since we first became aware of it in Season 1. During our last in-depth talk about it a defense meta patch, our game directors stated a few ways we may be looking to solve the meta issue, such as making Out of Stamina state more dangerous, decreasing the rewards of parrying and implementing more ways for offensive heroes to open up a turtling opponent.

Since we are on it i think it should be nice to make parry harder to do instead of nerfing it (since its a skillfull action) light parrys are ok but heavys are really easy to do at the moment, the same with the counter guard break mechanic, i see 100% of people on all of my matches do it (even dominion) its just to easy to do, if you make it harder to do im sure the turtle meta will fix (for normal and low elo, high elo still needs another tweakings since people can tech gb no matter the way its done)

Nerf out of stamina state to the ground, hahaha some ideas include dodgin while out of stamina to cost stamina (so fast dodge characters cant escape like nothing) and increase chip damage in that state.

Tyrjo
06-27-2017, 08:21 AM
The defensive meta is also something that is more prevalent on PC than on console. On console it is in effect in maybe the top 10% of players in terms of skill.

Draghmar
06-27-2017, 08:29 AM
...such as making Out of Stamina state more dangerous...
Only if you give all characters more stamina. Cent is already very annoying in how easy is for him to get you to zero while he has at least 50%. If you punish OOS it wouldn't solve anything. People will still be afraid of attacking but the reason will be different.

xECS DESTROYER
06-27-2017, 03:01 PM
I believe a simplistic way to fix this is giving more chip damage on blocked heavies. My suggestion would be to make a blocked heavy deal the damage of that respective character's light attack or close to it. This would make feints actually matter for characters who have slower attacks and allow for an offensive approach.

We.the.North
06-27-2017, 07:23 PM
Lets make it simple :

In a world where light attacks deal about 15 damage, a parry will lead to a 40+ damage punish on some heroes. That means if you can parry even 1/3 of the light attacks being thrown at you, you will deal more damage than your opponent.

"Defensive Meta" means you do more damage by playing defensively ... which is weird, absurd, annoying and leads to starring contest in duels where nobody wants to attack the opponent first.

Tyrjo
06-27-2017, 08:48 PM
The above comments summarize the defense meta very well. It's something the team has been looking to address since we first became aware of it in Season 1. During our last in-depth talk about it a defense meta patch, our game directors stated a few ways we may be looking to solve the meta issue, such as making Out of Stamina state more dangerous, decreasing the rewards of parrying and implementing more ways for offensive heroes to open up a turtling opponent.

I don't understand how that would solve anything. You would actually be more afraid of spending your stamina and attacking. The is exactly how it feels facing a Centurion, damned if you do or damned if you don't. Attack and he will have a much easier way of depleting my stamina through a parry or just by blocking, or try to turtle, which you can't vs a Centurion.

UbiJurassic
06-28-2017, 01:15 AM
I don't understand how that would solve anything. You would actually be more afraid of spending your stamina and attacking. The is exactly how it feels facing a Centurion, damned if you do or damned if you don't. Attack and he will have a much easier way of depleting my stamina through a parry or just by blocking, or try to turtle, which you can't vs a Centurion.

A lot of those were early suggestions we were looking into. It is likely that additional changes have been made and others have be scrapped entirely during the development of the patch and when looking over player feedback about addressing the defense meta.

Mia.Nora
06-28-2017, 03:13 AM
A lot of those were early suggestions we were looking into. It is likely that additional changes have been made and others have be scrapped entirely during the development of the patch and when looking over player feedback about addressing the defense meta.

Like so many other people said countless times, in this thread and in other threads; making OOS more punishable ONLY PROMOTES MORE TURTLE. Only way of losing stamina is;

a. Attacking
b. Getting blocked
c. vs a Centurion

I understand he is Roman's baby and he loves favoritism but, making OOS more punishable does only 1 thing; help Centurion. People will keep turtling, actually even more so with Stamina being more important. After 5 months you guys still come and talk about OOS for breaking defensive meta, are the devs even have the slightest idea how this game actually works??

If it is a scraped idea, why do you keep saying it? What are the real tested changes?? Because that was the excuse behind defense meta patch still not being here for the last several weeks; that it is tested. What exactly is being tested??

xDarkMACx
06-28-2017, 05:40 AM
Hi,

If it will be harder to parry, then the LB needs another feat to replace his parry feat.