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Kaijudub
06-19-2017, 06:29 PM
Well that's another character you've screwed up.. Well played, bravo etc etc

Antonioj26
06-19-2017, 06:46 PM
They barely even touched him, only difference is he can't spam his SB as much and it's now truly a 50/50. Before you could charge the SB and react to your opponents defensive options.

Lyskir
06-19-2017, 06:55 PM
Warden is still one of the best Heroes ingame only topped by Warlord, PK or Cent maybe

The people are so used to be a S hero, even if he is only just a bit better than most of the hero now, they are crying * omg TRASH*

Antonioj26
06-19-2017, 06:59 PM
Warden is still one of the best Heroes ingame only topped by Warlord, PK or Cent maybe

The people are so used to be a S hero, even if he is only just a bit better than most of the hero now, they are crying * omg TRASH*

yeah its pretty silly.

ONYX_x5
06-19-2017, 06:59 PM
Feels like they did more than that. His recovery seems very very slow.
I have 2 builds, a 30 Con and a 12 Warden. I may have to start a Cent. At least they will not touch him.
SOMETHING weird happen yesterday too. I was fighting a Zerk and a Orichi jumped in and was pounding on him. He never could interrupt his attacks. End up we were both on the same side and Orichi kept hitting me. He interrupted me everytime but never the Zerk.

Antonioj26
06-19-2017, 07:17 PM
Feels like they did more than that. His recovery seems very very slow.
I have 2 builds, a 30 Con and a 12 Warden. I may have to start a Cent. At least they will not touch him.
SOMETHING weird happen yesterday too. I was fighting a Zerk and a Orichi jumped in and was pounding on him. He never could interrupt his attacks. End up we were both on the same side and Orichi kept hitting me. He interrupted me everytime but never the Zerk.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here but it sorta if sounds like your teammate was hitting you and interrupting you but wasn't interrupting the zerk. My only guess it's the zerk was doing the infinite which grants UI or he had revenge. Either way that has nothing to do with warden being nerfed, if you were hit by teammates before this patch you would be interrupted. That's not just limited to warden either, that was for everyone.

Netcode_err_404
06-19-2017, 07:21 PM
So, touching a single move of a certain class, makes him trash ?

When I talk about trash can design of the classes's moves list, I mean that.


Classes have a move list, but devs make one of these moves powerfull enough to literally carry that said class. And when they will nerf it, the class feels trash.

Lyskir
06-19-2017, 07:25 PM
So, touching a single move of a certain class, makes him trash ?

When I talk about trash can design of the classes's moves list, I mean that.


Classes have a move list, but devs make one of these moves powerfull enough to literally carry that said class. And when they will nerf it, the class feels trash.

yep

and warden has still a good opener with shoulder bash even after the nerf, half of the heroes does not even have that

Netcode_err_404
06-19-2017, 07:33 PM
yep

and warden has still a good opener with shoulder bash even after the nerf, half of the heroes does not even have that


Thats cool to hear, but the problem still persists.


Some classes should be removed from the game until a competent hero designer is hired.

The kings of the embarassing class design is the conq, and the orochi.

Both are viable at any level, both classes are simple a spam of the same move over and over.

I would like to have a chat with the designer/responsable hero balance, because I'd love to ak him, if giving a whole class, 2 hits that are better than the entire move list, is a good design choice, and if he is satisfied.


Orochi literally can win with top light and zone, I know some amazing players will come here and tell me they can parry with eyes closed, and a banana sticked up in their asses, but nonetheless, orochi is strong character and can be viable enough, pressing literally 3 buttons.

r1, r1+r2.


And I pity the ones that play these classes.

ZUNniK.
06-19-2017, 07:53 PM
And I pity the ones that play these classes.

Conquerer is actually really fun. You should give it a try :) But yes, his movelist/strategy is a bit...simple :D Hope the Devs have something good for him in store

ONYX_x5
06-19-2017, 07:55 PM
Thanks Ant your probably right. I never have played Zerk. It just seemed funny in a weird way.

Netcode_err_404
06-19-2017, 07:56 PM
Conquerer is actually really fun. You should give it a try :) But yes, his movelist/strategy is a bit...simple :D Hope the Devs have something good for him in store

I used him, but i got bored 26 seconds later.

I used him to win vs LB block shove spammer tho.

Antonioj26
06-19-2017, 07:59 PM
Thanks Ant your probably right. I never have played Zerk. It just seemed funny in a weird way.

Np I know the brain tricks us on occasion. when we hear our character has been nerfed it's common to see things you didn't before and look at them as new problems the character has to deal with.

Kaijudub
06-19-2017, 09:00 PM
They've done more than just change his sb. His recovery time is slower, and his stam use has increased to the point where it's useless. The cancel window on the sb is also different.

I don't expect many to agree as he was a hated hero, but his move list is almost as poor as the conq anyway and now his only opener or mind game option has been hurt badly.

I agree with the stam increase, however imo the cancel changes weren't needed.

Antonioj26
06-19-2017, 09:12 PM
They've done more than just change his sb. His recovery time is slower, and his stam use has increased to the point where it's useless. The cancel window on the sb is also different.

I don't expect many to agree as he was a hated hero, but his move list is almost as poor as the conq anyway and now his only opener or mind game option has been hurt badly.

I agree with the stam increase, however imo the cancel changes weren't needed.

Absolutely hyperbolic to call it useless. It's still only 20 stamina. It's enough to get off 4sb or gb cancels if you include the lights in between. That's more than enough. The recovery hasn't been changed since its last nerf a couple patches ago and it still was fairly safe even after the nerf. Far more often than not I'm able to cgb after a dodged shoulder bash. He's still going to be top5

dragon7jdc
06-19-2017, 10:02 PM
while i dont play any faction other than samurai. I actually like the warden and a hero and an opponent. but i think he is still good. but players who main him should be 50\50 agrresive\defensive.
i still fight great wardens who give a challenge. but the rest are just turtle and wait. at this point i just give them a free win. because if its not a challenge i dont want the win.

Epoqx
06-19-2017, 10:12 PM
They've done more than just change his sb. His recovery time is slower, and his stam use has increased to the point where it's useless. The cancel window on the sb is also different.

I don't expect many to agree as he was a hated hero, but his move list is almost as poor as the conq anyway and now his only opener or mind game option has been hurt badly.

I agree with the stam increase, however imo the cancel changes weren't needed.

All of these changes where needed to balance to the rest of the cast.

Concerning his move list, it hasnt changed and is still in the top 3 usefull and most diversified movelist in the game.

UbiJurassic
06-19-2017, 11:54 PM
We'll be keeping a close eye on Warden following the most recent nerf in the live update. We appreciate any and all feedback you can give us on how the Warden feels in the current meta or how you think they can be improved for the future.

AKDagriZ
06-20-2017, 01:06 AM
of course he is a turtle . I raise my hat to all the good warden out there,Im fine with warden turtle

Kaijudub
06-20-2017, 12:38 PM
We'll be keeping a close eye on Warden following the most recent nerf in the live update. We appreciate any and all feedback you can give us on how the Warden feels in the current meta or how you think they can be improved for the future.

May I suggest playing him against a cent for example. If you use any stamina at all and the cent catches you with a kick and punch it's over.

The cancel timing window should be increased also. Imho you should be able to cancel the bash at any point in the charge. The cancel to gb was great against side step spamming assassins and added to the single page of moves he has.

I used the sb mix up, but I also like feint parry play. Since patch there's no point in sb'ing a decent player and top lights are pretty much our only way in. I cancel around 80% of my sb's I'd estimate now.

I used to be able to end someone in one bar of stamina if the combo started with a crushing counter and pulled off some heavy feints. It was a lucky one to pull off but do able. The stam usage involved now makes it a definite no go area. Feelsbad.

Dude_of_Valor
06-20-2017, 03:30 PM
On Xbox 1 Warden seems fine to me. If opponent can counter the SB then don't use it or be creative with it.

As for being a turtle well Warden can be great at both offence and defence and I think he is best suited when you change styles throughout the match. He is listed as being adaptable and that is what he does best.

Kaijudub
06-20-2017, 07:26 PM
On Xbox 1 Warden seems fine to me. If opponent can counter the SB then don't use it or be creative with it.

I wasn't asking for a git gud response but should've expected it.

High level players have always countered the sb.. This nerf was so new players didn't get abused, imo.

What I'm saying is the cancel has removed a string from his already pretty predictable and limited offence.

I very rarely face people that top attack me, that rules out CC. You might bait it a couple times in a set if lucky but it's most common in mirror matches where top light is the main way in for both parties. Awesome.

I personally believe he was fine, especially with the recent buffs to kensei and raider + the introduction of cent and shin.

People keep calling him top 5, can you please point me to the numerous tournaments won by wardens??

Antonioj26
06-20-2017, 08:18 PM
I wasn't asking for a git gud response but should've expected it.

High level players have always countered the sb.. This nerf was so new players didn't get abused, imo.

What I'm saying is the cancel has removed a string from his already pretty predictable and limited offence.

I very rarely face people that top attack me, that rules out CC. You might bait it a couple times in a set if lucky but it's most common in mirror matches where top light is the main way in for both parties. Awesome.

I personally believe he was fine, especially with the recent buffs to kensei and raider + the introduction of cent and shin.

People keep calling him top 5, can you please point me to the numerous tournaments won by wardens??

Can't find the results for recent tournaments but they've always had a good showing since the beginning. The last tournament I watched two weeks ago the guy playing was warlord and fought 4 wardens and 2 shins. The abundance of wardens in tournies isn't a coincidence.

DraxeI
06-20-2017, 09:49 PM
I don't play the Warden myself, but I have at least a couple hundred rounds worth of duel rounds versus a Warden friend of mine between launch and now.
It's quite sad to see the Warden's evolution, or rather devolution and current state.

There was certainly an issue with the shoulder-bash before the nerfs in that very skilled players could react on the reaction of the opponent and shift the 50/50 into something more akin to a 10/90 for the Warden with little punish if the Warden messed up.The best option you had at that point was to dodge roll out of it, but the fight would still revolve around that threat.

After the latest nerf this has shifted almost entirely in my favour, as the Orochi at the very least.
The Warden must cancel or guardbreak so early that I can wait a split second and actually read if it's going to be a cancel or if the Warden is going through with it.
And even if I mess up, the stamina cost imposed on the shoulder bash makes it so that the Warden can only do this a couple of times before having to back off anyways.

This sort of takes the shoulder-bash out of the Warden's viable options, and then what is the Warden left with?
A quick but predictable top light that will get parried? A zone attack that is predictable and reactable as well as being unsafe on block?
The Warden's other attacks are simply too slow to be viable versus anyone who has grasped parrying. And the feints are too telegraphed for anyone who's grasped feints.


I don't think the shoulder-bash should necessarily be brought up to where it was, but should rather have a more prominent role as a mix up option molded into a more fleshed out offensive kit for the Warden. Side lights, heavies and the like needs to be made more viable either via adjustments to speed and/or perhaps addition of uninterruptible status to certain attacks.

That's my take on it at the very least. Thank you.

tokyoto88
06-20-2017, 11:55 PM
Another tragic wrong turn in this games development.
Warden is one of three vanguard heroes in FH and has been consistently devalued in each version since release. IMHO vanguard heroes should exhibit simplicity and versatility to fulfill their remit as forward/adaptable openers within the game. The crybaby denigration of the Warden GB/SC move has reduced this heroes already limited set to near trash and negated one of the prime movesets capable of countering the turtle meta, which everyone professes to hate.
Warden is currently left with areasonably fast light and the possibility of 1/3 with a skill penalty of counterstrike.
In conjunction with the ludicrous stamina/recovery levels of the current character this amounts to the weakest vanguard hero. Try the others if you are in doubt.

Antonioj26
06-20-2017, 11:59 PM
Another tragic wrong turn in this games development.
Warden is one of three vanguard heroes in FH and has been consistently devalued in each version since release. IMHO vanguard heroes should exhibit simplicity and versatility to fulfill their remit as forward/adaptable openers within the game. The crybaby denigration of the Warden GB/SC move has reduced this heroes already limited set to near trash and negated one of the prime movesets capable of countering the turtle meta, which everyone professes to hate.
Warden is currently left with areasonably fast light and the possibility of 1/3 with a skill penalty of counterstrike.
In conjunction with the ludicrous stamina/recovery levels of the current character this amounts to the weakest vanguard hero. Try the others if you are in doubt.

Lol my god this is ridiculously over exaggerated. This is almost on the same salt level as the PK community after she was nerfed.

tokyoto88
06-21-2017, 12:34 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

"ridiculously over exaggerated"....I think that's you that's doing that.
We usually find one superlative sufficient.

Besides calling on God for a forum post reaction doesn't constitute a "ridiculous over exaggeration" ....does it?

BTW "salt level" isn't even English.

We usually try mastering that before attempting intelligent discourse.

Deus Vult.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 12:39 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

"ridiculously over exaggerated"....I think that's you that's doing that.
We usually find one superlative sufficient.

Besides calling on God for a forum post reaction doesn't constitute a "ridiculous over exaggeration" ....does it?

BTW "salt level" isn't even English.

We usually try mastering that before attempting intelligent discourse.

Deus Vult.

I was trying to be a bit nice but basically what I was saying is you are being a giant cry baby. Warden is still great and in better shape than most of the cast. Stop whining.

Trbevis
06-21-2017, 12:58 AM
Warden is fine, i enjoy playing warden from time to time, but mainly because i like how he looks haha get completly rid of the ability to vortex that shoulder bash and double light together repeatedly and hed be a loy fairer, anyone doing that is crap at for honor anyway as hes a solid hero and doesnt even need to be doing that. I never do it and am pretty successful with him.

tokyoto88
06-21-2017, 01:10 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

In what way were you trying to be a bit nice?

In what way am I being a "giant cry baby" for stating my opinion?

In what way is your opinion that "warden is in better shape than most of the cast" more valid than mine?

In what way do you think you are able to tell me to stop whining?

Trust me, I don't whine..and I don't do being bullied.
If you carry on issuing me instructions for stating my opinion in an open forum, I'll report you for griefing.

Mine was an open post and was not inviting your ad hominem reply.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 01:23 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

In what way were you trying to be a bit nice?

In what way am I being a "giant cry baby" for stating my opinion?

In what way is your opinion that "warden is in better shape than most of the cast" more valid than mine?

In what way do you think you are able to tell me to stop whining?

Trust me, I don't whine..and I don't do being bullied.
If you carry on issuing me instructions for stating my opinion in an open forum, I'll report you for griefing.

Mine was an open post and was not inviting your ad hominem reply.

Well I was being nice by not just calling you a giant baby off the bat because you are acting like a child right now. The worst vanguard? Please, dude. You absolutely are whining right now, report me for griefing I don't care. I haven't done anything wrong, me calling you a baby isn't griefing so please get over it. Hes better than all the knights aside from pk, you can argue centurion. He's better than or equal to all of the vikings except for warlord. Hes better than all the samurais except for shin. He's fine. This is all in 1v1 and I'm not saying that he can beat all of those characters in terms of taking them on each. For example conqueror is a pretty good counter to warden but warden overall is a much better character.

tokyoto88
06-21-2017, 01:54 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

You were being nice by not calling me a cry baby off the bat..well thanks for that.
And" I'm acting like a child right now"

Well you're the one calling me a crybaby so eh...who'se acting like a child?

I'm not talking about warden being able to "beat all the characters in terms of taking them on" as you state.

What I am saying is that I value FH for a fair fight for all characters. I've played warden up to lvl22 since release. I've played other heroes as a reference and can say that warden has been consistently been downgraded in all updates and is an entirely different proposition to play now from launch. If the devs expect loyalty from their consumer base, they should reciprocate with loyalty to the development of their users chosen characters. Not some cheap downgrade to accomodate new users and the latest DLC.

Once again, whilst your comment on the game is welcome, I do not value ad hominem remarks and instruction from you as to what I should say or think.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 02:02 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

You were being nice by not calling me a cry baby off the bat..well thanks for that.
And" I'm acting like a child right now"

Well you're the one calling me a crybaby so eh...who'se acting like a child?

I'm not talking about warden being able to "beat all the characters in terms of taking them on" as you state.

What I am saying is that I value FH for a fair fight for all characters. I've played warden up to lvl22 since release. I've played other heroes as a reference and can say that warden has been consistently been downgraded in all updates and is an entirely different proposition to play now from launch. If the devs expect loyalty from their consumer base, they should reciprocate with loyalty to the development of their users chosen characters. Not some cheap downgrade to accomodate new users and the latest DLC.

Once again, whilst your comment on the game is welcome, I do not value ad hominem remarks and instruction from you as to what I should say or think.

If you value a fair fight than you should be ecstatic about the nerf since it brings it closer to being a fair fight for the rest of the characters. Despite all the nerfs he's gotten His sb still gives you an edge that most characters don't have. This nerf Has nothing to do with new users its about making it more balanced for the people who continue to play the game.

Rikuto01.tv
06-21-2017, 02:05 AM
Good moves are true unreactable 50/50's and only a few of those exist.

Bad moves are fully reactable. If it can be reacted to, it is useless against good players, making the character itself useless.

True facts.

UbiJurassic
06-21-2017, 02:13 AM
To those that have provided feedback regarding the Warden post-nerf, thank you! Please continue to leave your feedback on it. I'll be forwarding the comments along to the team, who would be glad to read over your impressions following their most recent changes.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 02:18 AM
Good moves are true unreactable 50/50's and only a few of those exist.

Bad moves are fully reactable. If it can be reacted to, it is useless against good players, making the character itself useless.

True facts.

So then next to no good moves exist, seems like its better that everyone should have one (or some sort of equivalent that is as effective) or no one should to create an even playing field. Also most of the people that would be able to react to SB rather than guessing aren't playing against most of people complaining about the nerf. On console I find few and far between people who can actually react to it, it's mostly a guessing game.

tokyoto88
06-21-2017, 02:21 AM
The SB as you put it gives you an edge that other characters don't have.

No it doesn't. It's fully predictable and reactable.

There is nothing else in the moveset that has any merit with the exception of crushing counterstrike which has a skill penalty in that it requires an enhanced parry reaction.

Seriously you are giving yourself away here, go play the character.....there's nothing else. Very limited and basic moveset allied to laughable stamina/regen.

"despite all the nerfs" as you say, there has been a huge erosion of the character.

I'm going to have to end this time waste with the fact.... you ain't got squads of warden out there for a reason.

Do the math.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 02:27 AM
The SB as you put it gives you an edge that other characters don't have.

No it doesn't. It's fully predictable and reactable.

There is nothing else in the moveset that has any merit with the exception of crushing counterstrike which has a skill penalty in that it requires an enhanced parry reaction.

Seriously you are giving yourself away here, go play the character.....there's nothing else. Very limited and basic moveset allied to laughable stamina/regen.

"despite all the nerfs" as you say, there has been a huge erosion of the character.

I'm going to have to end this time waste with the fact.... you ain't got squads of warden out there for a reason.

Do the math.

I do play warden and I guarantee I could beat the majority of characters using him. For it being reactable people sure do get hit by it a lot. Lobbies were absolutely filled with wardens up until cent and shin got here and that all has to do with them not warden. You also don't see squads of warlords often but that doesn't stop them from being the absolute best character in the game.

tokyoto88
06-21-2017, 02:32 AM
Oh yeah, glad you can beat everyone with your warden.

Sure you didn't see all those warden squads during the great instakill glitch?

LOL.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 02:33 AM
Oh yeah, glad you can beat everyone with your warden.

Sure you didn't see all those warden squads during the great instakill glitch?

LOL.

Nope, just in general from the start he's always been a pretty popular pick. I'm willing to prove it if you play on psn, you pick whoever you want and I'll pick warden.

NOT_PeaceKeeper
06-21-2017, 04:08 AM
Aw poor Warden doesnt have his 50/50 crutch to lean on anymore and has to actually play the game like the rest of us now

Epoqx
06-21-2017, 10:25 AM
Thanks Antonioj26

"ridiculously over exaggerated"....I think that's you that's doing that.
We usually find one superlative sufficient.

Besides calling on God for a forum post reaction doesn't constitute a "ridiculous over exaggeration" ....does it?

BTW "salt level" isn't even English.

We usually try mastering that before attempting intelligent discourse.

Deus Vult.

You start by trying to prove yourself the best righter between antonio and yourself. You clearly acted as a child.

Anyways, Warden as been in the top 3 since release. He was overplayed in tournaments, along with WL and PK. The warden didn't won that much tournaments because there is a better character than him, which is the WL. If a character is OP, it dosn't mean he is the best in the game (Even if the term OP concerns only one move).

He is the most picked character along with Orochi since the release.

His moveset is simple, but counters hard a lot of the other chars. Just take Crushing counterstrike for example, which is a direct counter to any character who relies on top attacks.

Since the begining he had the fastest guard switch, an opener, the only real vortex in the game (nearly without consumming stamina), top tier light attacks, top tier zone attack (even if it is hardly unisheable, and this is how any zone should be), huge damaging heavy top. Oh yeah, and he still got more hp than Kensei, for no single reason.

He is top tier on a lot of his mechanics as you can see. These nerfs where expected since a long time. Before these, the SB was way too hard to counter.

tokyoto88
06-21-2017, 02:00 PM
Thanks Epoqx,

"You start by trying to prove yourself the best righter between antonio and yourself.You clearly acted as a child"

Sorry, do you mean righter which doesn't actually mean anything, or writer which means you can't spell.

I did not "start" by doing anything other than replying to the OP and the thread with my opinion. Period.
I did not invite antonio to start quoting my posts and opening a dialogue in which he attempts to undermine my opinion, he did that himself, and so are you.
Good luck, and enjoy yourself with that.

For my part, I'm not interested. I gave my opinion clearly and stand by it.

As for acting like a child, antonio is calling me a big crybaby......I'll lleave the readers to decide who's "acting as a child"

Don't worry my feeling aren't hurt, in fact I'm LMFAO.

I'm outa here.

Deus Vult.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 02:03 PM
Thanks Epoqx,

"You start by trying to prove yourself the best righter between antonio and yourself.You clearly acted as a child"

Sorry, do you mean righter which doesn't actually mean anything, or writer which means you can't spell.

I did not "start" by doing anything other than replying to the OP and the thread with my opinion. Period.
I did not invite antonio to start quoting my posts and opening a dialogue in which he attempts to undermine my opinion, he did that himself, and so are you.
Good luck, and enjoy yourself with that.

For my part, I'm not interested. I gave my opinion clearly and stand by it.

As for acting like a child, antonio is calling me a big crybaby......I'll lleave the readers to decide who's "acting as a child"

Don't worry my feeling aren't hurt, in fact I'm LMFAO.

I'm outa here.

Deus Vult.

Gj dodging my challenge to prove that warden is still viable.

Kaijudub
06-21-2017, 05:10 PM
The SB as you put it gives you an edge that other characters don't have.

No it doesn't. It's fully predictable and reactable.

There is nothing else in the moveset that has any merit with the exception of crushing counterstrike which has a skill penalty in that it requires an enhanced parry reaction.

Seriously you are giving yourself away here, go play the character.....there's nothing else. Very limited and basic moveset allied to laughable stamina/regen.

"despite all the nerfs" as you say, there has been a huge erosion of the character.


Do the math.

This.

I only play warden, have done since beta and he really does feel like a mediocre character now. He's gone from someone that could apply pressure to someone that has to sit back and try to beat peoples start up frames with lights. Yay. I also couldn't agree more with your comment regarding the "erosion"

@UbiJurassic Is there any chance of giving the warden some of Apollyons moveset if you guys decide that this is where the warden needs to stay? Probably a big ask at this point but hey. If there are any opportunities to discus wardens with you guys I would love to be involved.

Oh and please ignore Antonio's usual antisocial tactics to derail threads, I'd really like this to be an open non hateful warden discussion.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 05:16 PM
This.

I only play warden, have done since beta and he really does feel like a mediocre character now. He's gone from someone that could apply pressure to someone that has to sit back and try to beat peoples start up frames with lights. Yay. I also couldn't agree more with your comment regarding the "erosion"

@UbiJurassic Is there any chance of giving the warden some of Apollyons moveset if you guys decide that this is where the warden needs to stay? Probably a big ask at this point but hey. If there are any opportunities to discus wardens with you guys I would love to be involved.

Oh and please ignore Antonio's usual antisocial tactics to derail threads, I'd really like this to be an open non hateful warden discussion.

How am I derailing a thread? You guys are crying about wardens viability and acting like hes bottom tier when hes still a great character. Yeah, hes not as great as he was before but neither are any of the characters that completely dominated. Everyone is getting closer to the center and reaching balance, its not going to kill you to be in with the rest of the cast.

Kaijudub
06-21-2017, 05:23 PM
How am I derailing a thread? You guys are crying about wardens viability and acting like hes bottom tier when hes still a great character. Yeah, hes not as great as he was before but neither are any of the characters that completely dominated. Everyone is getting closer to the center and reaching balance, its not going to kill you to be in with the rest of the cast.

The only person I ever see "crying" is you, the rest of us are trying to have a civil discussion about a character i personally have over 500hrs play time with. This is the only time I'm going to reply to you here, as unless you're rep20+ with warden i'm not particularly interested in what you have to say...

Tbch I'm over your need to name call and prove to everyone what a good for honor player you are, literally nobody cares dude.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 05:30 PM
The only person I ever see "crying" is you, the rest of us are trying to have a civil discussion about a character i personally have over 500hrs play time with. This is the only time I'm going to reply to you here, as unless you're rep20+ with warden i'm not particularly interested in what you have to say...

Tbch I'm over your need to name call and prove to everyone what a good for honor player you are, literally nobody cares dude.

How am I crying? You guys are being incredibly dramatic over these nerfs. "the worst vanguard" is absolutely absurd to say when Kensei has been at the bottom since launch. I don't need to be rep 20 to know how to use a character, I destroy rep 30's all the time with characters that are rep 2 or 3.

Lyskir
06-21-2017, 05:42 PM
How am I crying? You guys are being incredibly dramatic over these nerfs. "the worst vanguard" is absolutely absurd to say when Kensei has been at the bottom since launch. I don't need to be rep 20 to know how to use a character, I destroy rep 30's all the time with characters that are rep 2 or 3.


dont waste ur breath

those warden mains that always used to beat the most heroes without any effort by shoulderbash spam are now crying that they have fight seriously and with they whole kit

and when a warden main say * i did not only spam shoulderbash i used more of my kit* then why cry about the nerf? only shoulderbashspam got nerfed nothing else and in low/ mid tier it is hardly noticeable

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 05:48 PM
dont waste ur breath

those warden mains that always used to beat the most heroes without any effort by shoulderbash spam are now crying that they have fight seriously and with they whole kit

and when a warden main say * i did not only spam shoulderbash i used more of my kit* then why cry about the nerf? only shoulderbashspam got nerfed nothing else and in low/ mid tier it is hardly noticeable

Yeah, I know but its just crazy to me that people can look at this character and pretend like they aren't in a better spot than most. Yesterday I fought a very competent rep 18 raider who renders SB completely useless unless OOS and I still beat him, Warden has a great toolkit.

Knight_Raime
06-21-2017, 07:20 PM
Keep in mind warden for me game time wise ties with 2 other people. So I can admit that I don't have "the best" knowledge here. But I'd like to think I understand things well enough.

IMO the big difference here with the warden now is instead of being able to react to your opponent you now have to guess yourself what they will do and hope you guessed right with your action.
This is a HUGE change to him. But I don't think this means he's trash now. I just think people are getting upset because they have to approach him differently now. People don't like change.

You can still cancel and parry a light (if you did that before) you just have a smaller window now.
Same with cancel to guard break.
The thing I hear a lot now is that "all someone has to do is wait and dodge if you try to go for a bash."
Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe good turtle could already avoid the wardens mix up. And that the only time the combo was really punishing any more was if the opponenet was OOS.
So I don't see the complaint.

Kaijudub
06-21-2017, 07:54 PM
Keep in mind warden for me game time wise ties with 2 other people. So I can admit that I don't have "the best" knowledge here. But I'd like to think I understand things well enough.

IMO the big difference here with the warden now is instead of being able to react to your opponent you now have to guess yourself what they will do and hope you guessed right with your action.
This is a HUGE change to him. But I don't think this means he's trash now. I just think people are getting upset because they have to approach him differently now. People don't like change.

You can still cancel and parry a light (if you did that before) you just have a smaller window now.
Same with cancel to guard break.
The thing I hear a lot now is that "all someone has to do is wait and dodge if you try to go for a bash."
Correct me if i'm wrong but I believe good turtle could already avoid the wardens mix up. And that the only time the combo was really punishing any more was if the opponenet was OOS.
So I don't see the complaint.

You're right it is a huge change, a character changing edit imo. You're also right in people don't like change, so if its so well documented that people despise change why change him?!? They also gave us nothing extra to counter the loss of a mixup, and whats happened here is we've had our right arm removed with a stump left in its place. I'e whats left is a shadow of its former self.

I'm on PS4 but i'm pretty sure canceling sb to parry light is going to be impossible but I couldn't honestly say so will jump on shortly to do some testing. The SB cancel window has also changed so if you don't charge it with the cancel imediately in mind it's very easy to miss and you're in a commited full charge... We should be able to cancel the SB at any time imo.

I've always said a decent level player was able to avoid the SB vortex, and I'll stick to it. I also still very much play the warden but feel like I have to resort to turtling, and I have never been a fan of the defensive meta.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 08:09 PM
You're right it is a huge change, a character changing edit imo. You're also right in people don't like change, so if its so well documented that people despise change why change him?!? They also gave us nothing extra to counter the loss of a mixup, and whats happened here is we've had our right arm removed with a stump left in its place. I'e whats left is a shadow of its former self.

I'm on PS4 but i'm pretty sure canceling sb to parry light is going to be impossible but I couldn't honestly say so will jump on shortly to do some testing. The SB cancel window has also changed so if you don't charge it with the cancel imediately in mind it's very easy to miss and you're in a commited full charge... We should be able to cancel the SB at any time imo.

I've always said a decent level player was able to avoid the SB vortex, and I'll stick to it. I also still very much play the warden but feel like I have to resort to turtling, and I have never been a fan of the defensive meta.

With that sort of logic than I guess we shouldn't change centurion and we shouldn't have changed shinobi. I'm on PS4 too and it's definitely possible to cancel SB to parry the light after the vortex has started. Some people are fast enough to hit me out of it from neutral but not many. If any decent level players were able to avoid the vortex than all these people who are getting stomped in tournies must not be decent.

Utopie.
06-21-2017, 08:36 PM
I don't play the Warden myself, but I have at least a couple hundred rounds worth of duel rounds versus a Warden friend of mine between launch and now.
It's quite sad to see the Warden's evolution, or rather devolution and current state.

There was certainly an issue with the shoulder-bash before the nerfs in that very skilled players could react on the reaction of the opponent and shift the 50/50 into something more akin to a 10/90 for the Warden with little punish if the Warden messed up.The best option you had at that point was to dodge roll out of it, but the fight would still revolve around that threat.

After the latest nerf this has shifted almost entirely in my favour, as the Orochi at the very least.
The Warden must cancel or guardbreak so early that I can wait a split second and actually read if it's going to be a cancel or if the Warden is going through with it.
And even if I mess up, the stamina cost imposed on the shoulder bash makes it so that the Warden can only do this a couple of times before having to back off anyways.

This sort of takes the shoulder-bash out of the Warden's viable options, and then what is the Warden left with?
A quick but predictable top light that will get parried? A zone attack that is predictable and reactable as well as being unsafe on block?
The Warden's other attacks are simply too slow to be viable versus anyone who has grasped parrying. And the feints are too telegraphed for anyone who's grasped feints.


I don't think the shoulder-bash should necessarily be brought up to where it was, but should rather have a more prominent role as a mix up option molded into a more fleshed out offensive kit for the Warden. Side lights, heavies and the like needs to be made more viable either via adjustments to speed and/or perhaps addition of uninterruptible status to certain attacks.

That's my take on it at the very least. Thank you.

That is exactly how I feel. There is nothing I could add...the nerf was too hard.

Antonioj26
06-21-2017, 08:45 PM
That is exactly how I feel. There is nothing I could add...the nerf was too hard.

You can squeeze off 4 shoulder bashes in a row still with a full bar, that's 72 damage with low risk and it didn't take a "very skilled player" to make SB 90/10 the way the quote describes. Still more than viable and still more than most of the cast has in terms of options.

Kaijudub
06-21-2017, 09:02 PM
I don't play the Warden myself, but I have at least a couple hundred rounds worth of duel rounds versus a Warden friend of mine between launch and now.
It's quite sad to see the Warden's evolution, or rather devolution and current state.

There was certainly an issue with the shoulder-bash before the nerfs in that very skilled players could react on the reaction of the opponent and shift the 50/50 into something more akin to a 10/90 for the Warden with little punish if the Warden messed up.The best option you had at that point was to dodge roll out of it, but the fight would still revolve around that threat.

After the latest nerf this has shifted almost entirely in my favour, as the Orochi at the very least.
The Warden must cancel or guardbreak so early that I can wait a split second and actually read if it's going to be a cancel or if the Warden is going through with it.
And even if I mess up, the stamina cost imposed on the shoulder bash makes it so that the Warden can only do this a couple of times before having to back off anyways.

This sort of takes the shoulder-bash out of the Warden's viable options, and then what is the Warden left with?
A quick but predictable top light that will get parried? A zone attack that is predictable and reactable as well as being unsafe on block?
The Warden's other attacks are simply too slow to be viable versus anyone who has grasped parrying. And the feints are too telegraphed for anyone who's grasped feints.


I don't think the shoulder-bash should necessarily be brought up to where it was, but should rather have a more prominent role as a mix up option molded into a more fleshed out offensive kit for the Warden. Side lights, heavies and the like needs to be made more viable either via adjustments to speed and/or perhaps addition of uninterruptible status to certain attacks.

That's my take on it at the very least. Thank you.

Sorry i completely missed this, very well put.

Lyskir
06-21-2017, 09:05 PM
Even shinobi mains do not cry so much like u guys although their nerf was MUCH harder


i salute to shin mains

Knight_Raime
06-21-2017, 10:02 PM
You're right it is a huge change, a character changing edit imo. You're also right in people don't like change, so if its so well documented that people despise change why change him?!? They also gave us nothing extra to counter the loss of a mixup, and whats happened here is we've had our right arm removed with a stump left in its place. I'e whats left is a shadow of its former self.

I'm on PS4 but i'm pretty sure canceling sb to parry light is going to be impossible but I couldn't honestly say so will jump on shortly to do some testing. The SB cancel window has also changed so if you don't charge it with the cancel imediately in mind it's very easy to miss and you're in a commited full charge... We should be able to cancel the SB at any time imo.

I've always said a decent level player was able to avoid the SB vortex, and I'll stick to it. I also still very much play the warden but feel like I have to resort to turtling, and I have never been a fan of the defensive meta.


I feel like along side people like conq and warlord the warden should be drastically different after the defensive meta is fixed.
I know it's something that gets echoed a lot and (to be frank) is something a lot of us myself included probably hype up a bit too much considering we know very little on what they are planning to do to change it. We know some things but most of it is pretty vague.

That being said I LIKE the fact that the warden has to guess now instead of reacting to what the opponent does. This is because it moves us away...at least on paper it's taking us away from the defensive meta. Reactionary play is part of the problem. That being said I feel the main reason warden players are upset about this is because the change was made on it's own. The defensive meta didn't shift with them. So it feels like a big downgrade.

This is what I was attempting to get at with part of my post. I feel like once the game shifts to a different direction this change won't feel so bad. IMO if the warden still feels bad post meta patch we could seek other ways to buff his kit. Like orochi I feel like he needs more viable moves. But I wouldn't know how to do so. Since it really feels like his kit revolves around bashes. Which is widely different compared to orochi where he's built around the concept of punishing.

If we take the bash as viable as is he's able to to do make any direction work. in theory. Side lights are pretty fast off bash. not really of neutral. top is always good. His zone is a good direction as well. IMO where warden hurts the most is his neutral game. Not sure how to buff that.

Kaijudub
06-21-2017, 11:13 PM
My biggest issue atm is not being able to cancel the charge after a certain point.. The cancel window is also way too short and recovery too long. Imo it leaves the full charge too open for punish.. maybe a decrease in full charge time could work?

The stam increases are pretty painful after 500 odd hours of combos etc don't get me wrong but i just feel like the full charge sb is totally unsafe now..

Knight_Raime
06-21-2017, 11:50 PM
My biggest issue atm is not being able to cancel the charge after a certain point.. The cancel window is also way too short and recovery too long. Imo it leaves the full charge too open for punish.. maybe a decrease in full charge time could work?

The stam increases are pretty painful after 500 odd hours of combos etc don't get me wrong but i just feel like the full charge sb is totally unsafe now..

I would understand why. At the same time I wasn't exactly fond of the warden being able to cancel super duper late.
I wonder if they could give a time in which you still had some flexibility but also didn't let the warden play completely reactionary.
Didn't the full charge SB only really see use if you wanted to wall splat someone or get them super close to one?

Kaijudub
06-22-2017, 12:28 AM
I would understand why. At the same time I wasn't exactly fond of the warden being able to cancel super duper late.
I wonder if they could give a time in which you still had some flexibility but also didn't let the warden play completely reactionary.
Didn't the full charge SB only really see use if you wanted to wall splat someone or get them super close to one?

See the cancel late to insta gb is annoying but just being able to cancel it late would allow for reactionary play but more to bait out dash attacks to parry etc? Currently it feels like maybe 1 second so it feels like self punishment anyway in itself when missed if that makes sense..

The travel distance from cancel to gb has been shortened too if I'm not mistaken?

The full charge guarentees a top heavy if in top stance and again timed right, was useful in the mix up but not so much now.

Just played for a bit and I salute you Antonio if you can consistently cancel shoulder bash to bait and party lights in online sets. I had it down maybe 2 out of 15 times when in custom with a friend and that was totally scripted. If you're talking about assassin side step attacks or kensei side step attacks then yes those are totally parry-able but sidestep attacks weren't my problem.

Knight_Raime
06-22-2017, 04:41 AM
I'd be fine if they loosened the cancel window slightly. I just don't think you should be able to cancel through the entire animation up to releasing.

guor6800
06-22-2017, 07:44 AM
Oh guys cmon. Stop crying because the 1-hit kill button has escaped you. I have been playing kensei since close beta and compared to waden is thrash in more than one categories. Warden after-nerf is still top 5. Just your SB is counterable(wow) Deal with it.

Epoqx
06-22-2017, 01:12 PM
The stam increases are pretty painful after 500 odd hours of combos etc don't get me wrong but i just feel like the full charge sb is totally unsafe now..

Now you get the feeling of nearly each move from the rest of the roster.
It feels unsafe, and thats what each move should be : a risk.

Kaijudub
06-22-2017, 02:22 PM
Now you get the feeling of nearly each move from the rest of the roster.
It feels unsafe, and thats what each move should be : a risk.

It always was a risk unless you were against people that weren't versed in the dodge timing. I'll keep saying this untill I'm blue in the face, because it's true.

Now I cancel 80% of my SB's and never use the full charge. So basically left with a predictable top light... lol.

Epoqx
06-22-2017, 02:37 PM
It always was a risk unless you were against people that weren't versed in the dodge timing. I'll keep saying this untill I'm blue in the face, because it's true.

Now I cancel 80% of my SB's and never use the full charge. So basically left with a predictable top light... lol.

It has veen discussed tons of times with in multiple posts showing that the previous warden SB was super safe.
Super low risk/high reward move.
It was a 50/50/50 with almost no stamina cost, and with characters that couldnt even light it to stop it.

Headbutt has been nerfed nicely too, so now its more reactable and punishable.
Badically each unblockable that where to fast to react too has been nerfed. It was only a matter of time concerning SB.

Kaijudub
06-22-2017, 02:51 PM
It has veen discussed tons of times with in multiple posts showing that the previous warden SB was super safe.
Super low risk/high reward move.
It was a 50/50/50 with almost no stamina cost, and with characters that couldnt even light it to stop it.

Headbutt has been nerfed nicely too, so now its more reactable and punishable.
Badically each unblockable that where to fast to react too has been nerfed. It was only a matter of time concerning SB.


No it was documented that it was dodgeable and punishable and most characters could light out of it. Hence why you don't hear versed players moaning about it, other than Tru3talent of course. I maintain that this nerf was so mediocre players didn't continue to get abused. If Wardens were winning tournaments left n right because of the vortex then cool, but the reality is there isn't a warden thats won any noteable 1v1 tournies... Because Vortex doesn't work in high level play.

If you're telling me the sb was too quick to react to then i'm not sure what to say lol. The cancel to GB yes, the SB itself, hell no.

If you also read my posts i'm not against the nerf as such, just feel it was too much.

Epoqx
06-22-2017, 04:27 PM
No it was documented that it was dodgeable and punishable and most characters could light out of it. Hence why you don't hear versed players moaning about it, other than Tru3talent of course. I maintain that this nerf was so mediocre players didn't continue to get abused. If Wardens were winning tournaments left n right because of the vortex then cool, but the reality is there isn't a warden thats won any noteable 1v1 tournies... Because Vortex doesn't work in high level play.

If you're telling me the sb was too quick to react to then i'm not sure what to say lol. The cancel to GB yes, the SB itself, hell no.

If you also read my posts i'm not against the nerf as such, just feel it was too much.

Damnit i wrote my whole answer on my phone, until right before i wanted to click "submit reply", my phone went out of battery. I'll make it shorter.

I understand your opinion, even if i partially agree.

As i already said before, warden not winning tourneys doesn't make him bad, just not better than the top 1 character. So you can consider him top 2/3, as he always had that kind of rank in tourneys, just gettin outclassed by WL everytimes, and PK sometimes.

Warden's SB has always been dodgeable, but it was a 50/50 (without counting the cancel parry, which makes it a 33/33/33). That 50/50 could've even been done on reaction by the warden.

Warden's SB has always been hardly punishable, because of the Low Risk/High Reward caracteristic of that move. Even in the end part of a charged/fully charged SB, the warden could CGB, making it totally unfair and hardly punishable.

To finish, Warden SB was spammed a lot even in high level play/tourneys, because of the 33/33/33 guessing game for the opponent, making tons of pressure for a nearly unexisting stamina cost and high rewarding move ( 2 of the guesses leading to a GB or crushing counterstrike ).

Kaijudub
06-22-2017, 04:44 PM
Damnit i wrote my whole answer on my phone, until right before i wanted to click "submit reply", my phone went out of battery. I'll make it shorter.

I understand your opinion, even if i partially agree.

As i already said before, warden not winning tourneys doesn't make him bad, just not better than the top 1 character. So you can consider him top 2/3, as he always had that kind of rank in tourneys, just gettin outclassed by WL everytimes, and PK sometimes.

Warden's SB has always been dodgeable, but it was a 50/50 (without counting the cancel parry, which makes it a 33/33/33). That 50/50 could've even been done on reaction by the warden.

Warden's SB has always been hardly punishable, because of the Low Risk/High Reward caracteristic of that move. Even in the end part of a charged/fully charged SB, the warden could CGB, making it totally unfair and hardly punishable.

To finish, Warden SB was spammed a lot even in high level play/tourneys, because of the 33/33/33 guessing game for the opponent, making tons of pressure for a nearly unexisting stamina cost and high rewarding move ( 2 of the guesses leading to a GB or crushing counterstrike ).

Lol i had that happen to me last night with the phone thing, soooooooo annoying!

Just so you're aware I only play warden (rep28) so I'm 100% aware of how his vortex worked. I'll also maintain that it WAS reactable and dodgeable because people reacted and dodged mine all the time, hence why i dont have a 90% win rate on this game using the warden.

However theres more to this nerf than the SB cancel changes as I've stated throughout this thread, and personally I feel they've gone overboard. Now he's a slow recovering character with 3 notable combos to his name and a reaction specific counter attack.

Epoqx
06-22-2017, 05:05 PM
Now he's a slow recovering character with 3 notable combos to his name and a reaction specific counter attack.

That's still more than nearly all other characters x)

EDIT : And if you look at it, the recovery is getting in line with all other characters recoveries.

Kaijudub
06-23-2017, 10:10 AM
That's still more than nearly all other characters x)

EDIT : And if you look at it, the recovery is getting in line with all other characters recoveries.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/jnrblue/op%20wardens_zpszaoupfpu.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/jnrblue/media/op%20wardens_zpszaoupfpu.jpg.html)

Yeah way more than other characters...Kappa.

Like I know he's a disliked character but c'mon, there isn't really much you can do with this.....

Antonioj26
06-23-2017, 05:01 PM
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/jnrblue/op%20wardens_zpszaoupfpu.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/jnrblue/media/op%20wardens_zpszaoupfpu.jpg.html)

Yeah way more than other characters...Kappa.

Like I know he's a disliked character but c'mon, there isn't really much you can do with this.....

But thats only because you are pretending like his SB is completely useless. You could do the same thing with all the other characters. I

Antonioj26
06-23-2017, 05:04 PM
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/jnrblue/op%20wardens_zpszaoupfpu.jpg (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/jnrblue/media/op%20wardens_zpszaoupfpu.jpg.html)

Yeah way more than other characters...Kappa.

Like I know he's a disliked character but c'mon, there isn't really much you can do with this.....

But thats only because you are pretending like his SB is completely useless. You could do the same thing with all the other characters. I

Kaijudub
06-23-2017, 06:17 PM
But thats only because you are pretending like his SB is completely useless. You could do the same thing with all the other characters. I

Oh I'm not pretending xx

Antonioj26
06-23-2017, 06:36 PM
Oh I'm not pretending xx

But you are though I played warden all day a couple days ago and I was still winning. You are acting as though everyone you fight is in the pro circuit.

Kaijudub
06-23-2017, 06:48 PM
But you are though I played warden all day a couple days ago and I was still winning. You are acting as though everyone you fight is in the pro circuit.

Awesome I spent 4 hours playing against my extremely versed tournament regular friend last night. He practiced multiple characters and I had to turtle if I had any chance of the win. Fights that used to be a 50/50 are much, much, much harder for me to overcome as a warden now.

I know you don't agree, thus is impossible for you to imagine it being a thing for other people, but speak to anyone that plays warden as a main and they aren't happy..

Antonioj26
06-23-2017, 07:04 PM
Awesome I spent 4 hours playing against my extremely versed tournament regular friend last night. He practiced multiple characters and I had to turtle if I had any chance of the win. Fights that used to be a 50/50 are much, much, much harder for me to overcome as a warden now.

I know you don't agree, thus is impossible for you to imagine it being a thing for other people, but speak to anyone that plays warden as a main and they aren't happy..

I don't have a main since I play just about everyone, but warden is probably one of my best and still remains to be one of my best even after the nerf. Of course they aren't happy, who would be happy that their character is nerfed? Even warlords wouldn't be happy they are nerfed even if they would acknowledge how strong he is. I don't know I don't want to come off as me s hitting on you but maybe its just you and not the character. I'll agree hes been knocked down a peg but he's still just as viable or moreso than the majority of the cast. Perhaps its because I play just about everyone that I can see how strong he still is compared to the others.

Kaijudub
06-23-2017, 07:12 PM
I don't have a main since I play just about everyone, but warden is probably one of my best and still remains to be one of my best even after the nerf. Of course they aren't happy, who would be happy that their character is nerfed? Even warlords wouldn't be happy they are nerfed even if they would acknowledge how strong he is. I don't know I don't want to come off as me s hitting on you but maybe its just you and not the character. I'll agree hes been knocked down a peg but he's still just as viable or moreso than the majority of the cast. Perhaps its because I play just about everyone that I can see how strong he still is compared to the others.

TLDR

You're epic, everyone else sucks.. Of course, why did I even bother.

Waits for "gimme your psn so I can prove it'

Yawn

Antonioj26
06-23-2017, 07:20 PM
TLDR

You're epic, everyone else sucks.. Of course, why did I even bother.

Waits for "gimme your psn so I can prove it'

Yawn

Not at All what I was saying but okay. It's a shame you can't even hint at someone possibly being limited by their own skill without them completely shutting down the conversation.

Kaijudub
06-23-2017, 07:24 PM
Not at All what I was saying but okay. It's a shame you can't even hint at someone possibly being limited by their own skill without them completely shutting down the conversation.

It's because it's all you do.. Backed with your inability to not come across like a complete c**t, I'd just rather not converse with you.

But thanks for your opinion.

Antonioj26
06-23-2017, 07:26 PM
It's because it's all you do.. Backed with your inability to not come across like a complete c**t, I'd just rather not converse with you.

But thanks for your opinion.

Not true but alright.

Justicator
06-24-2017, 03:05 PM
Give the Vanguard soft feints [feints into lights without the cancel]. The Soft Feint Light side attacks, while they were a bug, they looked so natural on a Warden, like they were always supposed to be included in the game. That + Chip Damage is all you need to destroy the turtle META... I mean seriously, You can't implement that... I will call it as it is... Ubisoft BS... Sry for the rants tone... I really love to play this game but it's technical issues and the staring contests are making me crazy...

Neqva
06-24-2017, 04:08 PM
I have 2 builds, a 30 Con and a 12 Warden. I may have to start a Cent. At least they will not touch him. .

Looks more like the issue here is L2P and not depend on the current most OP class ^^

Neqva
06-24-2017, 04:09 PM
To all the crying Wardens:
It was needed, nothing you say or cry about will change that. If you feel that the Warden is broken, thats because you are **** and depended on the SB. The Warden still has a strong kit, you don't manage to use it, again, it's because you are **** and depends on SB to win.

Neqva
06-24-2017, 04:17 PM
Awesome I spent 4 hours playing against my extremely versed tournament regular friend last night. He practiced multiple characters and I had to turtle if I had any chance of the win. Fights that used to be a 50/50 are much, much, much harder for me to overcome as a warden now.

I know you don't agree, thus is impossible for you to imagine it being a thing for other people, but speak to anyone that plays warden as a main and they aren't happy..
The reason here isn't that your class got broken, its that you weren't as good as you think. you just played an OP class

ScottJund
06-24-2017, 08:10 PM
To all the crying Wardens:
It was needed, nothing you say or cry about will change that. If you feel that the Warden is broken, thats because you are **** and depended on the SB. The Warden still has a strong kit, you don't manage to use it, again, it's because you are **** and depends on SB to win.

I'm sorry, what kit? The Warden is Shoulder Bash. Without it, they're just a ****ty Orochi.

Extortional
06-24-2017, 08:35 PM
my biggest problem is the fact that counter guard break seems to be busted on the warden i can go spend an hour practicing guardbreaks and counter guardbreaks against a bot but then when i go play live my proc to counter it doesn't even appear until i've already been hit by a guardbreak and i know it's not just me cause i can go back to the bots and it will stop doing it. not to mention i get dropped from games left and right due to bad connections this game is honestly becoming harder and harder to go back to and it's sad

ScottJund
06-24-2017, 08:42 PM
my biggest problem is the fact that counter guard break seems to be busted on the warden i can go spend an hour practicing guardbreaks and counter guardbreaks against a bot but then when i go play live my proc to counter it doesn't even appear until i've already been hit by a guardbreak and i know it's not just me cause i can go back to the bots and it will stop doing it. not to mention i get dropped from games left and right due to bad connections this game is honestly becoming harder and harder to go back to and it's sad

Well I can assure you that is 100% in your head - there is no difference between CGB timings between heroes.

Extortional
06-24-2017, 08:52 PM
then something must be wrong cause i can't land a ****ing counter to save my life and it's pissing me off

ScottJund
06-24-2017, 08:56 PM
You just need to practice more - its that simple.

Kaijudub
06-24-2017, 10:58 PM
I'm sorry, what kit? The Warden is Shoulder Bash. Without it, they're just a ****ty Orochi.

Finally someone with some actual experience jumps into the convo...

A rubbish orochi about sums it up, what I'd do for a side dash attack right now... feelsbad, feels so bad.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 12:46 AM
Finally someone with some actual experience jumps into the convo...

A rubbish orochi about sums it up, what I'd do for a side dash attack right now... feelsbad, feels so bad.

Yeah except Scott is a competitive player which you are not and neither are the majority of your opponents. Your talking about the top 10-15% of players, since your playing on console it's probably even more in wardens favor.

ScottJund
06-25-2017, 12:58 AM
Yeah except Scott is a competitive player which you are not and neither are the majority of your opponents. Your talking about the top 10-15% of players, since your playing on console it's probably even more in wardens favor.

Let's completely ignore skill for a minute. What does Warden have, other than Shoulder Bash, that is actually useful? The only thing I can think of is a decent light parry punish.

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 01:01 AM
Let's completely ignore skill for a minute. What does Warden have, other than Shoulder Bash, that is actually useful? The only thing I can think of is a decent light parry punish.

I've chosen to put this guy on my ignore list tbh, he likes to demand psn's so he can prove how good he is and nothing you say will change his mind.

Its really not worth your effort, as he's been stomping people since the beginning of time.

Oupyz
06-25-2017, 01:35 AM
warden sb was op , it was nerfed now, get over it and end this useless discussion

everybody knew that sb cancel in late animation was as op as **** for a simple reason that u can spam it endlessly

now it's fixed .

about what he has it's for honor only centurion and shinobi has a moveset and some combos that bring variety

i welcome warden to the rest of the roster

finally they achieved balance with him

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 02:12 AM
Let's completely ignore skill for a minute. What does Warden have, other than Shoulder Bash, that is actually useful? The only thing I can think of is a decent light parry punish.

I'm not saying he has a ton, what I'm saying is where kaijudub and most of these people crying about the warden nerf don't actually encounter people who can reliable counter the SB. I don't doubt that people at a competitive level know how to counter it consistently, but kaiju isn't at that level and neither is anyone in this thread aside from maybe you.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 02:14 AM
I've chosen to put this guy on my ignore list tbh, he likes to demand psn's so he can prove how good he is and nothing you say will change his mind.

Its really not worth your effort, as he's been stomping people since the beginning of time.

When did I demand your psn? Point to the post. Never said I stomp people at the beginning of time, I just know most people on console cant reliable counter the SB so it's still a good tool. You aren't on a level where it's a problem.

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 02:33 AM
When did I demand your psn? Point to the post. Never said I stomp people at the beginning of time, I just know most people on console cant reliable counter the SB so it's still a good tool. You aren't on a level where it's a problem.

Then perhaps its you that isn't at a decent level. I'm not sure what gives you the authority to determine the level I play at but i'm just going to go ahead and report you for griefing now. Scott asked you to ingore skill level, yet the majority of your reply was spent being negative towards me.

You sir have issues.

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 02:37 AM
warden sb was op , it was nerfed now, get over it and end this useless discussion

everybody knew that sb cancel in late animation was as op as **** for a simple reason that u can spam it endlessly

now it's fixed .

about what he has it's for honor only centurion and shinobi has a moveset and some combos that bring variety

i welcome warden to the rest of the roster

finally they achieved balance with him

I'm not asking for the ability to spam the sb. More asking them to look at the sb cancel window and recovery time.

kweassa1
06-25-2017, 02:40 AM
I'm not asking for the ability to spam the sb. More asking them to look at the sb cancel window and recovery time.

...I don't see anything wrong with it. So what are we supposed to look out for?

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 02:47 AM
...I don't see anything wrong with it. So what are we supposed to look out for?

So on ps4 currently if you don't cancel the charge within a second (might be shorter) you're currently committed to a half arsed, normally to be dodged and punished, sb. You used to be able to cancel the charge all the way through the animation into an instant GB. The GB part was op but the cancel window imo is now too short.

The recovery time was tweaked before this recent nerf and made the sb cancel to parry feel a bit like pot luck and overall just made the warden feel a little sluggish.

I'm all open and happy for discussion, i just don't really want to be continually insulted for having an opinion.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 03:20 AM
Then perhaps its you that isn't at a decent level. I'm not sure what gives you the authority to determine the level I play at but i'm just going to go ahead and report you for griefing now. Scott asked you to ingore skill level, yet the majority of your reply was spent being negative towards me.

You sir have issues.

Go ahead and report me, I don't care. Nothing will happen since I'm not griefing you, pointing out your skill level isn't any sort of harrassment. I don't care if he asked me to ignore skill level, if we did that then kensei would be a great character. The truth is you aren't playing against people who can consistently handle shoulder bashes, whether it's 4s or duels. You aren't in the competitive scene where the SB is easy to counter, you are in the average.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 03:35 AM
So on ps4 currently if you don't cancel the charge within a second (might be shorter) you're currently committed to a half arsed, normally to be dodged and punished, sb. You used to be able to cancel the charge all the way through the animation into an instant GB. The GB part was op but the cancel window imo is now too short.

The recovery time was tweaked before this recent nerf and made the sb cancel to parry feel a bit like pot luck and overall just made the warden feel a little sluggish.

I'm all open and happy for discussion, i just don't really want to be continually insulted for having an opinion.

The thing is you take it so personal when I'm saying you should reflect on your skill level. You have self admitted that your record is 55% winrate and this was before the nerf so is it out of the realm of possibilities that it's partially you?

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 03:49 AM
The thing is you take it so personal when I'm saying you should reflect on your skill level. You have self admitted that your record is 55% winrate and this was before the nerf so is it out of the realm of possibilities that it's partially you?

My win rate for the first 3 months of playing was 22% with a 0.4 kd ratio as i got to grips with the character post beta (gb changes etc) and never quit. It was pretty rough but i stuck with it. The fact it is now +kd and 55% shows a pretty decent improvment and would suggest my ratio was infact much higher over the last 3 months for example. Not that i need to explain anything to you but my warden is in the top 0.1 - 0.2% for all categroies and in the top 30% for win rate and k/d... If top third is average to you then ok, i consider myself to be competant, and i certainly face competant players while trying my hand semi successfully in random organised tournaments.

I also spend alot of my time playing against possibly one of the best lawbringers and raiders on ps4 in customs, infact i spend most of my time now in customs tbh.

You really need to stop assuming other people suck at this game. OR because you think they suck, their opinion is any less valid. You've repeatedly tried to use you're non existant expert veiw of my skill level to try and make my arguement invalid, thats not cool.

Now you've stated your opinion, please stop posting in this thread if you have nothing to offer other than insults to my skill level.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 03:57 AM
My win rate for the first 3 months of playing was 22% with a 0.4 kd ratio as i got to grips with the character post beta (gb changes etc) and never quit. The fact it is now +kd and 55% shows a pretty decent improvment and would suggest my ratio was infact much higher over the last 3 months for example. Not that i need to explain anything to you but my warden is in the top 0.1 - 0.2% for all categroies and in the top 30% for win rate and k/d... If top third is average to you then ok, i consider myself to be competant, and i certainly face competant players while trying my hand semi successfully in random organised tournaments.

You really need to stop assuming other people suck at this game. OR because you think they suck, their opinion is any less valid. You've repeatedly try to use you're non existant expert veiw of my skill level to try and make my arguement invalid, thats not cool.

Now you've stated your opinion, please stop posting in this thread if you have nothing to offer than isults to my skill level.

That top .1% you are referring to just has to do with rep level which is completely useless and means nothing. Currently your win rate in duel is 56.50 and you are in the top 51%, you are pretty much smack dab in the middle. You are very much average. You need to stop taking it as an insult and just recognize I'm only pointing out a reality. You aren't as good as you think you are and even when you played a character that was ranked fairly high on the tier list you still failed to pass mediocrity. Also kd means nothing, it's going to skew your stats since certain modes make it easier to have a higher kd than others.

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 04:08 AM
That top .1% you are referring to just has to do with rep level which is completely useless and means nothing. Currently your win rate in duel is 56.50 and you are in the top 51%, you are pretty much smack dab in the middle. You are very much average.

Even when i use stats you can still argue and persist with something that isnt actually relevant to my original post. You just dont think i face good opponents. Ok, thanks etc..

Overall win ratio is 56.5 % which is top 35%

You think i'm average, and you're right I dont think i'm average. Regardless of my skill level i still face people that can counter the SB very well, why does that bother you so much?

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/jnrblue/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-25%20at%2003.40.05_zpsbvwfajni.png (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/jnrblue/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-25%20at%2003.40.05_zpsbvwfajni.png.html)

heres a picture so you can argue some more. I'm done.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 04:19 AM
Even when i use stats you can see you wont agree. Overall win ratio is 56.5 % which is top 35%

You think i'm average, and you're right I dont think i'm average. Regardless of my skill level i still face people that can counter the SB very well, why does that bother you so much?

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i255/jnrblue/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-25%20at%2003.40.05_zpsbvwfajni.png (http://s74.photobucket.com/user/jnrblue/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-06-25%20at%2003.40.05_zpsbvwfajni.png.html)

heres a picture so you can argue some more. I'm done.

Great so you've included your overall win rate where you can be carried by your teammates. Proves nothing, your duel record is average. Walk away from the coversation I don't really care. What it boils down to is after 22rep you still haven't figured out how to use a character as well as I have at rep 3, you can live or die in mediocrity. I really couldn't care less.

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 04:25 AM
Great so you've included your overall win rate where you can be carried by your teammates. Proves nothing, your duel record is average. Walk away from the coversation I don't really care. What it boils down to is after 22rep you still haven't figured out how to use a character as well as I have at rep 3, you can live or die in mediocrity. I really couldn't care less.

The duel record you're looking at also doesn't give you a break down of my warden on its own so your point of view is coming from a skewed perception.

I'm fine with you thinking i'm mediocre now can you finally let people leave their feedback in peace pls. xx

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 04:29 AM
The duel record you're looking at also doesn't give you a break down of my warden on its own so your point of view is coming from a skewed perception.

I'm fine with you thinking i'm mediocre now can you let people leave their feedback in peace pls. xx

Of course they can, I'm not stopping them from giving feedback. I'm just giving my own. Stop being so sensitive about it and taking it personal. Even if it doesn't show your full breakdown you should have a grasp of the character that you should be much higher for how long you've played him. Either it's taking you forever to fully understand the character or you just are overall mediocre to begin with, you still aren't anything more than average.

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 04:32 AM
Of course they can, I'm not stopping them from giving feedback. I'm just giving my own. Stop being so sensitive about it and taking it personal. Even if it doesn't show your full breakdown you should have a grasp of the character that you should be much higher for how long you've played him. Either it's taking you forever to fully understand the character or you just are overall mediocre to begin with, you still aren't anything more than average.

And you continue to be that guy, out drunk and posting on a forum.... exactly the reason your opinion means nothing x

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 04:34 AM
And you continue to be that guy, out drunk and posting on a forum.... exactly the reason your opinion means nothing x

Not really that drunk, drunk enough that If I was in a serious match against someone who is at my skill level or close to I would probably lose since my reactions are a bit slower, but I'm still sober enough to speak or type with no sort of problem.

kweassa1
06-25-2017, 06:33 AM
So on ps4 currently if you don't cancel the charge within a second (might be shorter) you're currently committed to a half arsed, normally to be dodged and punished, sb. You used to be able to cancel the charge all the way through the animation into an instant GB. The GB part was op but the cancel window imo is now too short.

Which means prior to the change there wasn't really any means of reliable counter for the other guy, which why people hated it so much as being broken, and called it the "vortex" where you were sucked into a situation you can't get out of and the Warden holds all the initiative everytime. Now, as others have already mentioned, you don't get to force the other guy to make a choice, and then simply get the leisurely pleasure of reacting upon that choice to counter it. It's a true 50/50 where the Warden also needs to make a choice with his attacks, in which if he fails the gamble, will have consequences.

What I'm not getting, is why you think it's OK for the warden to have a skill that forces a one-sided, leisurely reaction which the opponent is always inherently disadvantaged in, due to the nature of the moveset. The SB "vortex spamming" -- mechanically speaking -- operates under the same functionality as the Shinobi Kick spamming before the nerf. You show the other guy the double-dodge, at which point the opponent is forced to make a choice to either go into a dodge, which the Shinobi can GB during his double-dodge to counter, or if the opponent doesn't move go into a kick which is impossible to evade or counter unless it's something like a Shug-DemE or Nob-HiddenStance.


Didn't you use to complain about the Shinobi as others also have?





The recovery time was tweaked before this recent nerf and made the sb cancel to parry feel a bit like pot luck and overall just made the warden feel a little sluggish.

I'm all open and happy for discussion, i just don't really want to be continually insulted for having an opinion.[/QUOTE]

Duuklah
06-25-2017, 06:56 AM
And you continue to be that guy, out drunk and posting on a forum.... exactly the reason your opinion means nothing x

Dude dont bother this guy is a huge ****boi.. Like one of the worst ****less wonders in all the world.

Duuklah
06-25-2017, 06:57 AM
Not really that drunk, drunk enough that If I was in a serious match against someone who is at my skill level or close to I would probably lose since my reactions are a bit slower, but I'm still sober enough to speak or type with no sort of problem.

with 1646 posts on this forum and likely as much time played i would expect you to be soo amazing.. THIS IS YOUR LIFE!!

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 08:09 AM
with 1646 posts on this forum and likely as much time played i would expect you to be soo amazing.. THIS IS YOUR LIFE!!

I am. I know.

Antonioj26
06-25-2017, 08:11 AM
Dude dont bother this guy is a huge ****boi.. Like one of the worst ****less wonders in all the world.

I realize you are still upset over being worse than 2/3rds of the community and centrurion stomping all over your face but you don't have to take it out on me. Don't hold grudges, be a man.

Justicator
06-25-2017, 10:55 AM
Arguing isn't going to help anything. People who play warden know that, unfortunately, everything revolves around the shoulder bash... When you are playing against people who parry your every top light and block your every zone you are pretty much screwed. You know why? Because those people also know ho easily punishable your shoulder bash is. Warden is in a state of Rikimaru while i played DOTA so long ago; he's a pure pub stomper. He utterly destroys new players who don't really understand this game completely and who are rather inexperienced; but against experience players who don't panic when they see a warden shoulder-bashing into them, he becomes far less useful. And while the warden is designed like this; having an extremely easy to make opener but no other real move set, this will not change. And as long as UBI doesn't make drastic changes [which i seriously doubt they ever will] to the season 1 characters you will have this exact situation; inexperienced [and this is not used as an insult] and still not on a top-tier performance level clamoring for a warden nerf, saying that he is OP as hell and warden players who play a lot of FH and face extremely competent players saying that warden has no real move set. To both parties I say the same thing that I would say to the general community; stop arguing, stop whining and stop inciting conflict. It will get you no where and the community is all ready cancerous enough. Try to be constructive, try to support each other and strive for balance. Only with true balance will everyone be happy and enjoy this unique game that we have here. Now if only UBI would get their heads out of their...

Oupyz
06-25-2017, 11:49 AM
Ubi is at fault here for leaving warden is so ****ing broken for some long , finally they balanced him and people thinking he is weak

for everyone who is complaining that he is getting parried way 2 much feint your attack just like the rest of the classes don't be predictable u wont be parried


warden went so op for so long even amazing players like truetalent said from the begining warden is so above the rest of the roster

guess its time to adapt boys .

i play on pc an warden is doing fine there

Justicator
06-25-2017, 11:57 AM
I do feint, all the time.... top heavy into top light, top heavy into zone, side heavy into zone... heavy into gb... believe me i faint a lot. But it still doesn't matter when the opponent is turtling and punishes every shoulder bash...

Lyskir
06-25-2017, 12:08 PM
Which means prior to the change there wasn't really any means of reliable counter for the other guy, which why people hated it so much as being broken, and called it the "vortex" where you were sucked into a situation you can't get out of and the Warden holds all the initiative everytime. Now, as others have already mentioned, you don't get to force the other guy to make a choice, and then simply get the leisurely pleasure of reacting upon that choice to counter it. It's a true 50/50 where the Warden also needs to make a choice with his attacks, in which if he fails the gamble, will have consequences.

What I'm not getting, is why you think it's OK for the warden to have a skill that forces a one-sided, leisurely reaction which the opponent is always inherently disadvantaged in, due to the nature of the moveset. The SB "vortex spamming" -- mechanically speaking -- operates under the same functionality as the Shinobi Kick spamming before the nerf. You show the other guy the double-dodge, at which point the opponent is forced to make a choice to either go into a dodge, which the Shinobi can GB during his double-dodge to counter, or if the opponent doesn't move go into a kick which is impossible to evade or counter unless it's something like a Shug-DemE or Nob-HiddenStance.


Didn't you use to complain about the Shinobi as others also have?





The recovery time was tweaked before this recent nerf and made the sb cancel to parry feel a bit like pot luck and overall just made the warden feel a little sluggish.

I'm all open and happy for discussion, i just don't really want to be continually insulted for having an opinion.[/QUOTE]


This..

Kaijudub
06-25-2017, 12:20 PM
Which means prior to the change there wasn't really any means of reliable counter for the other guy, which why people hated it so much as being broken, and called it the "vortex" where you were sucked into a situation you can't get out of and the Warden holds all the initiative everytime. Now, as others have already mentioned, you don't get to force the other guy to make a choice, and then simply get the leisurely pleasure of reacting upon that choice to counter it. It's a true 50/50 where the Warden also needs to make a choice with his attacks, in which if he fails the gamble, will have consequences.

What I'm not getting, is why you think it's OK for the warden to have a skill that forces a one-sided, leisurely reaction which the opponent is always inherently disadvantaged in, due to the nature of the moveset. The SB "vortex spamming" -- mechanically speaking -- operates under the same functionality as the Shinobi Kick spamming before the nerf. You show the other guy the double-dodge, at which point the opponent is forced to make a choice to either go into a dodge, which the Shinobi can GB during his double-dodge to counter, or if the opponent doesn't move go into a kick which is impossible to evade or counter unless it's something like a Shug-DemE or Nob-HiddenStance.


Didn't you use to complain about the Shinobi as others also have?





The recovery time was tweaked before this recent nerf and made the sb cancel to parry feel a bit like pot luck and overall just made the warden feel a little sluggish.

I'm all open and happy for discussion, i just don't really want to be continually insulted for having an opinion.[/QUOTE]

You really don't need to explain to me how it works but thanks. I also haven't said it was fine, if you read my reply to you I even said cancel to gb was op.

kweassa1
06-25-2017, 02:05 PM
You really don't need to explain to me how it works but thanks. I also haven't said it was fine, if you read my reply to you I even said cancel to gb was op.

Then what's your point?

You want it to be less OP and still be useful? Except things don't always work like that, and there's not a "middle ground" -- so to speak -- in this issue.

The only reason it's OP was because it was absolutely and one-sidedly useful. The moment it becomes "not OP" is when it doesn't become the "do whatever you want, I hold the cards" situation and becomes a normal 50/50 with mild damage. You want to charge up SB more then you commit to that SB, sorry no GBs to fake out of.

You go down this path and the only thing there is a very awkward position where you don't want to sound like you're defending something OP, but at the same time you still want it to be OP.

So which is it? :confused:

Kaijudub
06-26-2017, 11:42 AM
Then what's your point?

You want it to be less OP and still be useful? Except things don't always work like that, and there's not a "middle ground" -- so to speak -- in this issue.

The only reason it's OP was because it was absolutely and one-sidedly useful. The moment it becomes "not OP" is when it doesn't become the "do whatever you want, I hold the cards" situation and becomes a normal 50/50 with mild damage. You want to charge up SB more then you commit to that SB, sorry no GBs to fake out of.

You go down this path and the only thing there is a very awkward position where you don't want to sound like you're defending something OP, but at the same time you still want it to be OP.

So which is it? :confused:

Yes less OP but still useable would be the ideal, IMO they've nerfed him too much. I'm not so sure why that is an issue here when we're talking about balancing. Isn't the idea to achieve the good middle ground ultimately?? Balancing usually involves more than one pass.