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View Full Version : Origins? When exactly is the Assassin Order meant to have started?



rob.davies2014
06-14-2017, 02:06 AM
Ok so AC:Origins is apparently the story of how the Assassin Order began.

But according to the canon the Order has existed before then in various forms. We know Darius, Iltani, and Wei Yu were all Assassins operating in Persia, Babylonia, and China respectively, hundreds of years before Bayek was around. And these don't just seem to be small 'a' assassins. They were fighting Templars and there are statues honouring them in the Auditore Villa Sanctuary. So presumably these people were part of the big 'A' Assassin Order...

So I'm guessing rather than founding the Order, Bayek will formalise it somehow or usher in a new phase like Altair did later.

This doesn't even touch on the connection to Adam and Eve starting the "Assassins bloodline" and all that jazz. I'd like that to tie in somehow but not holding out too much hope.

What does everyone else think? x

LoyalACFan
06-14-2017, 07:42 AM
The devs explained it like this; there have been groups similar in ideology to the Assassins and Templars since the days of the First Civilization, but Bayek is the one who first assembled the actual Brotherhood as we know it (though they weren't referred to as "Assassins," derived from "Hashashin," until the Crusades era). Later on, lowercase-a "assassins" like Darius, Iltani, etc were retroactively honored as big-A "Assassins" within the Brotherhood, because even though the Brotherhood didn't exist back then, their philosophy and methodology were similar to the later big-A "Assassins." A bit like the Catholic Church retroactively canonizing individuals as saints after their deaths.

ze_topazio
06-14-2017, 04:40 PM
Well, you can't really become a saint until you die, a better example would be the Catholic church declaring worthy ancient people who weren't even Christians to begin with.

orionsrise
06-15-2017, 01:39 AM
Sorry to go all nerd force here, but I have to disagree a bit here, we learn through subject 16 that the foundation of the Templar order date back to Cain and Abel, He was given the Templar cross on his forehead as the "Mark of Cain". Although
this knowledge might lead one to assume that this is the beginning of the Templar order, it's kind of implied that the assassin's order is also birthed around the same time by Seth. And we know that "Adam and Eve's Banishment from the Garden" took place around the Toba event 75,000 years ago. I might be over analyzing on this but it seems plausible enough to me.

WendysBrioche
06-15-2017, 02:10 AM
Ok so AC:Origins is apparently the story of how the Assassin Order began.

But according to the canon the Order has existed before then in various forms. We know Darius, Iltani, and Wei Yu were all Assassins operating in Persia, Babylonia, and China respectively, hundreds of years before Bayek was around. And these don't just seem to be small 'a' assassins. They were fighting Templars and there are statues honouring them in the Auditore Villa Sanctuary. So presumably these people were part of the big 'A' Assassin Order...

So I'm guessing rather than founding the Order, Bayek will formalise it somehow or usher in a new phase like Altair did later.

This doesn't even touch on the connection to Adam and Eve starting the "Assassins bloodline" and all that jazz. I'd like that to tie in somehow but not holding out too much hope.

What does everyone else think? x

I'd say most of it remains to be seen my friend....

As for the Villa Auditore statues, I think a simple explanation could be those statues weren't sculpted until thousands of years after the actual assassins they represented had lived.

It's quite possible relics and art from their time periods depicting them may not have survived passed a couple hundred years, if they even existed at all, given the discreet, and at times possibly paranoid nature of the Assassins and like organizations.

I mean, it's like paintings made during the Renaissance of historical figures they've never seen from anitiquity, predating even the Romans. These aren't actual representations, but attempts by artists of those contemporary time periods to put an ideal "face" to accomplished figures of history that befit their legendary status, as understood in the minds of these newer-aged people, and very often with no small amount of artistic liscence, but again only made by people in cultures thousands of years later.


Sorry to go all nerd force here, but I have to disagree a bit here, we learn through subject 16 that the foundation of the Templar order date back to Cain and Abel, He was given the Templar cross on his forehead as the "Mark of Cain". Although
this knowledge might lead one to assume that this is the beginning of the Templar order, it's kind of implied that the assassin's order is also birthed around the same time by Seth. And we know that "Adam and Eve's Banishment from the Garden" took place around the Toba event 75,000 years ago. I might be over analyzing on this but it seems plausible enough to me.

I think what they're aiming for here with Origins is the birth of the formal Assassin's Brotherhood that remains organized and exists consecutively, growing and operating all the way into the present day.

So there were likely other Assassin's brotherhoods/like groups prior to that, but they may have disbanded, were annihilated, or only existed for a short periods of time.

With Origins I think is the birth of the official Assassin's Brotherhood, that continues to exist without periodic breaks until modern day.

What we're likely seeing is the birth of the Assassin's Brotherhood that Altair is born into in the first game, especially considering the close proximity of those regions. It's been said that Bayek is indeed a direct ancestor of Altair ibn La'Ahad. Especially so given Bayek also has the Desmond scar.

wvstolzing
06-15-2017, 01:50 PM
Weren't there a couple of other threads about this question already? Where have they gone?
I think what can be said at this point has already been said.

This is all I have to say about it (from another thread with additions)


I'm sorry to be a downer but isn't this a retcon? Seems like Origins is an unofficial reboot after all.

It boils down to a terminological point -- these are supposed to be the first that 'called themselves Assassins'. They can simply say that the Masyaf 'Asasiyun' chose to make their order public (at least not entirely underground; occupying a huge castle, etc.) for some reason; and that's why everyone thinks the order names itself after that particular group.

But, lo and behold, the name was much more ancient. Who knew, etc. etc.

My guess is that they won't (can't really) retcon Eve's rebellion, human-First Civ war, Cain being the first 'Templar', and so on. My guess is that Bayek will unite groups ultimately descended from Eve's rebellion, but not necessarily in touch with one another and calling themselves whatever they like (the Mayan Brotherhood didn't originally call themselves 'Assassins'; similarly with the Roman 'Circulum Liberalis' in the comics [though this is weird, because they are later than Bayek's Brotherhood -- at the time the comic was released they were earlier than the earliest established (Masyaf); so now they could call themselves Assassins]).

So, lo and behold, the order was even more ancient. (This we did know previously, of course).

As to whether pre-Brotherhood Assassins can be 'lone wolves' -- I think this is unlikely. Their 'raison d'Ítre' is esoteric knowledge that can only be transmitted by some sort of society or another. Sure, they don't have complete knowledge of their legacy (at times both Templars and Assassins seem to be oblivious to the existence of the First Civ, Adam and Eve, etc.); but the '(secret, violent) fight for free will (against people who secretly and violently try to eradicate it)' is something of a tradition that people are initiated into.

From what's been revealed about Bayek so far, it sounds like he discovers certain secrets, which lead to his transitioning from basically a cop, to freedom fighter. Those 'secrets' have to do with all the prehistory of the struggle initiated by Eve's rebellion -- so they can't retcon any of that.

At least I hope not.

Also, didn't someone say explicitly that they aren't retconning Darius's 'invention' of the hidden blade in 5th (?) Century BC? There was a link to 'the history of the hidden blade' on the official website, but I can't find it now. The first time I clicked it, it didn't work; and now it's gone.

Also, as to the insignia on the pre-Bayek Assassins in Monteriggioni -- that need not even be explained; that's simply how the sculptor chose to adorn their figures. Similar to how European painters would use their own contemporary imagery (clothes, architecture, etc.) to depict scenes from the Bible.

Another Also: I think it was confirmed at some point that Templars of Bayek's time didn't call themselves Templars, but something along the lines of 'the circle of elders'. Same thing, I suppose.

Also, Ashraf did say in an interview that they 'know their lore very well', and that they 'respect it'. So I'm not terribly worried in that regard.

sleeplust
06-15-2017, 05:07 PM
There should be one or more proper and earlier names before the word assassin chosen as the brotherhood's name.
It can't be ancient Egyptian word for "assassin' for they couldn't see the word originated in Medieval age with that meaning.