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View Full Version : Grab Reject needs to be more beneficial to the person who succeeds in doing so.



Jasado
06-13-2017, 03:47 AM
It is WAY too lenient on the person grabbing. We all know about how easy it is for grab spamming individuals to ledge you simply from griefing with grab spam (because of the incredibly low delay from being countered), and the conditioning from having to respect the stupid cheese of it puts you in the position of "get ledged/wallsplat into heavy if you don't do grab reject again" or "eat a heavy for grabbing to not getting ledged/wallsplat into heavy anyways hahahaha".

Sometimes you expect a higher IQ or level of decency from someone after pushing off 2 to 3 grabs back to back, but they can just keep mashing grab half the time and still get you off that ledge or into a wall.

Hell, sometimes they can counter your follow up light to prevent that with their own light, depending on their char. Or parry your light.

From getting grab rejected. That's actually stupid. If your grab pressure gets rejected, the "respond" chip should move to you, not the other way around. There needs to be a slightly longer delay on the person being rejected, because there's too much free cheese from it currently. Contrast and compare when dealing with Raider (Legendary!), WAH LAWD, and Centurion (JUST dODGe It!!11!) - who have dangerous grapples you seriously need to respect in these situations.

I'm all for grabbing mindgames, but it's not a mindgame when mindlessly mashing even when countered properly is a viable option.

Vordred
06-13-2017, 03:53 AM
yeah i have always said that the failing a GB comes with no cost. and most of the time they can just Try again before you can do anything.

personally i think instead of just pushing them off when you CGB, you should punch or hit them with the hilt/shaft of your weapon, giving them a brief stun effect.

Mia.Nora
06-13-2017, 04:03 AM
From getting grab rejected. That's actually stupid. If your grab pressure gets rejected, the "respond" chip should move to you, not the other way around. There needs to be a slightly longer delay on the person being rejected, because there's too much free cheese from it currently. Contrast and compare when dealing with Raider (Legendary!), WAH LAWD, and Centurion (JUST dODGe It!!11!) - who have dangerous grapples you seriously need to respect in these situations.

Dude, how dare you mention Roman's baby's name like that.. shhhh

And yes, it is really pointless and annoying to CGB same guy 5 times in a row knowing that he can and will do it for a 6th time... Sadly it is too risky to try and do something else vs certain characters in certain locations, so we keep CGB until he gets bored.

Antonioj26
06-13-2017, 04:08 AM
It is WAY too lenient on the person grabbing. We all know about how easy it is for grab spamming individuals to ledge you simply from griefing with grab spam (because of the incredibly low delay from being countered), and the conditioning from having to respect the stupid cheese of it puts you in the position of "get ledged/wallsplat into heavy if you don't do grab reject again" or "eat a heavy for grabbing to not getting ledged/wallsplat into heavy anyways hahahaha".

Sometimes you expect a higher IQ or level of decency from someone after pushing off 2 to 3 grabs back to back, but they can just keep mashing grab half the time and still get you off that ledge or into a wall.

Hell, sometimes they can counter your follow up light to prevent that with their own light, depending on their char. Or parry your light.

From getting grab rejected. That's actually stupid. If your grab pressure gets rejected, the "respond" chip should move to you, not the other way around. There needs to be a slightly longer delay on the person being rejected, because there's too much free cheese from it currently. Contrast and compare when dealing with Raider (Legendary!), WAH LAWD, and Centurion (JUST dODGe It!!11!) - who have dangerous grapples you seriously need to respect in these situations.

I'm all for grabbing mindgames, but it's not a mindgame when mindlessly mashing even when countered properly is a viable option.

We are trying to get away from the turtle meta not strengthen it. Hes already being punished by having his stamina being drained from failing and risking taking a light. If you are by a ledge and some guy is hungry for the grab then just keep hitting him with lights while you move positions, these types will just keep mashing it in a panic to get the ledge. They arent the type to get light parries off.

Jasado
06-13-2017, 04:11 AM
We are trying to get away from the turtle meta not strengthen it. Hes already being punished by having his stamina being drained from failing and risking taking a light. If you are by a ledge and some guy is hungry for the grab then just keep hitting him with lights while you move positions, these types will just keep mashing it in a panic to get the ledge. They arent the type to get light parries off.

defending one instance of a grab =/= turtling.

Frankly, someone forcing you to stand there and exhaustively grab reject THEM is turtling. They are forcing you to stand in a precarious situation and simply do nothing but a non-aggressive action. It doesn't promote a meaningful exchange between both parties or move the fight along, so your response is inane and shallow.

Not an argument. Try again.

Antonioj26
06-13-2017, 04:16 AM
defending one instance of a grab =/= turtling.

Frankly, someone forcing you to stand there and exhaustively grab reject THEM is turtling. They are forcing you to stand in a precarious situation and simply do nothing but a non-aggressive action. It doesn't promote a meaningful exchange between both parties or move the fight along, so your response is inane and shallow.

Not an argument. Try again.

They aren't forcing you though, just hit them. They can't parry you and gb at the same time. Sorry you are having a tough time with an easily avoidable situation but I guess I should have expected that from someone whose brain gets tricked by kenseis dash attack.

CrunaCross
06-13-2017, 04:20 AM
cgb is just to easy to pull to even think of some sort of punish after GB was deflected. You know at release there was a shorter CGB window, but many couldn't handle it so they made the CGB way more generous, the way it was in the Beta. I also believe it's a bit too generous and the reaction time is very large. But if we include even some punish after cgb, the turtle meta would become even worse. You would not get punished only after every parry, but also after every cgb. The defense meta is bad as it is.

Jasado
06-13-2017, 04:27 AM
They aren't forcing you though, just hit them. They can't parry you and gb at the same time. Sorry you are having a tough time with an easily avoidable situation but I guess I should have expected that from someone whose brain gets tricked by kenseis dash attack.

You are free to 1v1 me and prove that situation if that's the character assassination route you want to take, we can solve that pitiful pot shot attempt real fast.

You also clearly don't understand the fact that I already outlined your scenario. As the person by a wall or ledge, you are in the hot-seat to respond, even after grab rejecting, not THEM. They can simply do slight pauses and grabs after the first wave of spam doesn't work (which the point is, it is far more reward than risk, when you are obviously being read correctly. Dumb.) because you can't dodge, or you get grabbed. And you can't heavy, because you'll get parried, then grabbed. And you can't grab, because if it gets rejected, off the ledge you go, or closer to the wall you go, and then you're back to the same loop. Hell, even if you throw out a light, unless you're PK/Valk/Shinobi, you aren't safe after that exchange (if it doesn't get parried/blocked), because you're still backed to the wall/ledge. All you've done is a tad bit of damage and reset to at least neutral. Which means more grabs, because you're still in the response seat.

If your "answer" is to "just" guess right 10/10 times and kill someone purely with light attacks for over half a dozen exchanges between grab spam (notwithstanding the likelihood this is a multi-fight mode, so time to kill matters quite a lot) just because they are grab spamming you, the problem is the risk vs reward of spamming grab even after being countered, not whatever ad hoc rationalization you're coming up with.

Jasado
06-13-2017, 04:28 AM
cgb is just to easy to pull to even think of some sort of punish after GB was deflected. You know at release there was a shorter CGB window, but many couldn't handle it so they made the CGB way more generous, the way it was in the Beta. I also believe it's a bit too generous and the reaction time is very large. But if we include even some punish after cgb, the turtle meta would become even worse. You would not get punished only after every parry, but also after every cgb. The defense meta is bad as it is.

All you have to do is lockout a rejected grabber from grabbing again for like 300ms. You are then promoted to do any other thing except spam.

It's less punish and more preventing a self-sustaining loop of "well, why WOULDN'T I do it again".

Antonioj26
06-13-2017, 04:31 AM
You are free to 1v1 me and prove that situation if that's the character assassination route you want to take, we can solve that pitiful pot shot attempt real fast.

You also clearly don't understand the fact that I already outlined your scenario. As the person by a wall or ledge, you are in the hot-seat to respond, even after grab rejecting, not THEM. They can simply do slight pauses and grabs after the first wave of spam doesn't work (which the point is, it is far more reward than risk, when you are obviously being read correctly. Dumb.) because you can't dodge, or you get grabbed. And you can't heavy, because you'll get parried, then grabbed. And you can't grab, because if it gets rejected, off the ledge you go, or closer to the wall you go, and then you're back to the same loop. Hell, even if you throw out a light, unless you're PK/Valk/Shinobi, you aren't safe after that exchange (if it doesn't get parried/blocked), because you're still backed to the wall/ledge. All you've done is a tad bit of damage and reset to at least neutral. Which means more grabs, because you're still in the response seat.

If your "answer" is to "just" guess right 10/10 times and kill someone purely with light attacks for over half a dozen exchanges between grab spam (notwithstanding the likelihood this is a multi-fight mode, so time to kill matters quite a lot) just because they are grab spamming you, the problem is the risk vs reward of spamming grab even after being countered, not whatever ad hoc rationalization you're coming up with.

Sure add me on psn Alyssaa-3

Antonioj26
06-13-2017, 04:35 AM
All you have to do is lockout a rejected grabber from grabbing again for like 300ms. You are then promoted to do any other thing except spam.

It's less punish and more preventing a self-sustaining loop of "well, why WOULDN'T I do it again".

If you hit them with a light that will answer their question.

CrunaCross
06-13-2017, 06:08 AM
If you hit them with a light that will answer their question.
yeah basically that's all you need to do. But only works if you are expecting the gb. Like in case of gb spammers. In the other cases you have to cgb.

That's why I imediately do a,light right after a cgb that usually punishes the next gb attempt. So cgb+light right after that. If you saw him get hit while trying to gb, throw another light. Untill he stops. And he will since he's going down fast.

kweassa1
06-13-2017, 07:49 AM
yeah basically that's all you need to do. But only works if you are expecting the gb. Like in case of gb spammers. In the other cases you have to cgb.

That's why I imediately do a,light right after a cgb that usually punishes the next gb attempt. So cgb+light right after that. If you saw him get hit while trying to gb, throw another light. Untill he stops. And he will since he's going down fast.

Usually a more safer approach is simply CGB - backstep. Since the opponent is pushed back, the distance is further than any normal attack reach in game. Works in all cases except if there's a specific reason not to back-dodge... such as terrain features, but those can be avoided by the player, so no biggy.


I agree with Antonio that the stamina loss is already enough a disadvantage. Even if we hate light-spammers, we don't exactly ask things like "if I block a light attack from someone, they should be locked out from using light attacks for X seconds" -- I don't see how GBs are different.

Epoqx
06-13-2017, 09:10 AM
I'm curious if u see the opponent GB you 5 times.... Why dont you try to punish him ? Like simply by using a light attack ?
Then believe me, he will stop.

Furthermore, with some time, and good button assignation, CGB become really easy.

SoveriegnKing
06-13-2017, 09:34 AM
I also agree with Antonio on this point. They'll get bored, get to low in stamina, or run OoS eventually. It's annoying as get out, but just stand there and wait. If you know they are ledge/wall hungry just keep you thumb glued to the GB to CGB. If they toss a random light or heavy to try to trick you, be ready to either eat it or parry. Just don't take your finger off that GB button for CGB. Everything cost stamina anyway. Don't try to dodge out of attacks though, as thier GB can connect. Slowly walk to the left or right till you're no longer in the "Hot Seat" to get ledged/splated. That works for most senario's. If you're on a bridge though, just slowly walk backwards till you're off the bridge. Though Hero's with CC moves that stagger you like Centurion's Leigon Kick, Conq's Shiled Bash, Valk's Shield Crush, Wardens Shoulder Bash, ect. ect. Will add difficultly on top of the GB spam. It's a passive punish on their stamina and annoying, but still a punish.

Aarpian
06-13-2017, 12:08 PM
It's incredibly easy to do. This would just relegate guardbreak into never-use-unless-it's-guaranteed tier.

Halvtand
06-17-2017, 11:12 AM
I agree that constant GB-CGB-fights are the bane of good fights. They break the golden rule of action games, because they are flat out boring. Also, depending on which character you play, sometimes you don't even have the option to throw out a light attack to disrupt this behaviour.

A CGB should have a larger effect, and I don't think we need to make it that much bigger than it already is to get something that works. All that is needed is to make the pushback a bit more severe and perhaps raise the "stun" effect by 100 ms or so. This would mean that after a failed GB the defender has enough time to move away from the fight a bit and either regain his stance or run away - moving the action forward. Alternatively the defender can go offensive and attack, potentially turning the fight around - moving the action forward. What cannot happen are these instances when its a long string of GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB - which makes the action stagnate.

Hormly
06-17-2017, 02:48 PM
so you want MORE turtling?

People are already scared to swing, now you want them scared to GB

Antonioj26
06-17-2017, 02:56 PM
I agree that constant GB-CGB-fights are the bane of good fights. They break the golden rule of action games, because they are flat out boring. Also, depending on which character you play, sometimes you don't even have the option to throw out a light attack to disrupt this behaviour.

A CGB should have a larger effect, and I don't think we need to make it that much bigger than it already is to get something that works. All that is needed is to make the pushback a bit more severe and perhaps raise the "stun" effect by 100 ms or so. This would mean that after a failed GB the defender has enough time to move away from the fight a bit and either regain his stance or run away - moving the action forward. Alternatively the defender can go offensive and attack, potentially turning the fight around - moving the action forward. What cannot happen are these instances when its a long string of GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB-GB-CGB - which makes the action stagnate.

But these instances don't have to happen. You just have to hit them with a light, there's nothing stopping you from doing it. You just listed off 6gbs in a row, why in gods name are you not hitting them with a light?

Halvtand
06-17-2017, 03:09 PM
so you want MORE turtling?
People are already scared to swing, now you want them scared to GB

I want people to think about what they do in the game and not just spam one move and hope that the other guy misses the counter on the seventh go. It gets even worse since getting countered gives the defender nothing. In a fighting game, or any action game for that matter, you want the different moves to do something. A counter that simply resets would not go far in a more classic fighting game like street figher or tekken. By adding a risk to the GB we would get rid of the GB-strings and the mindless GBs that some people just throw out and hope for the best.
But since you've engaged in the discussion and is obviously not satisfied with my suggestion, what is your own suggestion to end GB-strings?



But these instances don't have to happen. You just have to hit them with a light, there's nothing stopping you from doing it. You just listed off 6gbs in a row, why in gods name are you not hitting them with a light?


I agree that constant GB-CGB-fights are the bane of good fights. They break the golden rule of action games, because they are flat out boring. Also, depending on which character you play, sometimes you don't even have the option to throw out a light attack to disrupt this behaviour.
To clarify, I play mostly the heavy classes. Against an aggressive GB-spammer, the light attacks are sometimes too slow to disrupt the GB. Granted, this is only really a problem with the classes that have extremely fast GBs, but the fact remains, sometimes you can only sit and CGB and hope that the other guy tries something else soon.

Antonioj26
06-17-2017, 03:29 PM
I want people to think about what they do in the game and not just spam one move and hope that the other guy misses the counter on the seventh go. It gets even worse since getting countered gives the defender nothing. In a fighting game, or any action game for that matter, you want the different moves to do something. A counter that simply resets would not go far in a more classic fighting game like street figher or tekken. By adding a risk to the GB we would get rid of the GB-strings and the mindless GBs that some people just throw out and hope for the best.
But since you've engaged in the discussion and is obviously not satisfied with my suggestion, what is your own suggestion to end GB-strings?





To clarify, I play mostly the heavy classes. Against an aggressive GB-spammer, the light attacks are sometimes too slow to disrupt the GB. Granted, this is only really a problem with the classes that have extremely fast GBs, but the fact remains, sometimes you can only sit and CGB and hope that the other guy tries something else soon.

I play all the heavies too, they aren't too slow. Seriously, try this with a friend. The lights will beat the gb. Or tell me what characters lights are too slow and which characters gb is too fast to punish and I'll make a video.

kweassa1
06-17-2017, 05:37 PM
I want people to think about what they do in the game and not just spam one move and hope that the other guy misses the counter on the seventh go. It gets even worse since getting countered gives the defender nothing. In a fighting game, or any action game for that matter, you want the different moves to do something. A counter that simply resets would not go far in a more classic fighting game like street figher or tekken. By adding a risk to the GB we would get rid of the GB-strings and the mindless GBs that some people just throw out and hope for the best.
But since you've engaged in the discussion and is obviously not satisfied with my suggestion, what is your own suggestion to end GB-strings?

As degrading as it may sound, "Git Gud".

Because this "GB-string" problem you speak of, is non-existant in the first place. It's something that does not exist, and therefore no reason to alter the game in anyway -- because it's not a problem with the game in the first place. It's the people falling for obvious GBs and still cannot CGB it.

Your "string of GBs" is simply countered with a "string of CGBs" because GB itself is within the range of countering it through reaction, as well as predictable in many cases. The only exception to this is (a) when somebody places a clever attack-feint-GB, which by itself is another level of skill problem, or (b) when someone uses GB through an unexpected and abnormal abuse or glitch, which is something that needs to be fixed.

To make it very clear, your "string of GBs" is only a problem at the very lowest level of players who struggle to CGB even the most blatant of "in-your-face" GBs. In average level gameplay GB is already considered to have very low success rate and only really able to land consistently when it's after a hvy parry.

The GB doesn't warrant a "counter", because on average the repetition of GB attempts, no matter how fast you try it, is already within range of countering it through reflex.



To clarify, I play mostly the heavy classes. Against an aggressive GB-spammer, the light attacks are sometimes too slow to disrupt the GB. Granted, this is only really a problem with the classes that have extremely fast GBs, but the fact remains, sometimes you can only sit and CGB and hope that the other guy tries something else soon.

All heavies have at the slowest a 36 frame light attack, which is plenty enough to stop a GB. If it's "sometimes too slow" -- it's not the class that's too slow.

It's you.

ceaser64
06-17-2017, 07:44 PM
To clarify, I play mostly the heavy classes. Against an aggressive GB-spammer, the light attacks are sometimes too slow to disrupt the GB. Granted, this is only really a problem with the classes that have extremely fast GBs, but the fact remains, sometimes you can only sit and CGB and hope that the other guy tries something else soon.

No offense but your wrong. I use conq lights all the time to interrupt these grab games and their fast enough dam near 100% of the time for me.

UbiNoty
06-18-2017, 12:09 AM
We don't want to promote button-mashing as a safe fallback mechanism either so I can bring this up as something for us to delve deeper into.