PDA

View Full Version : Trials Garage Update #2: Multiplayer



UbiSkyBear
06-02-2017, 03:39 PM
Greetings Riders,

We’re back with an all new topic for discussion in the Garage. What are we talking about this month? Multiplayer. This is a big topic so settle in, we’ve got a lot to cover.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-HDscreen.jpg

Many of you might remember a time when competition in Trials was only about improving your own times and climbing a leaderboard, never seeing your opponents in head to head races. In Trials Evolution we made our first attempt to change that, introducing both online & local multiplayer modes. The quest to bring multiplayer racing to Trials has come with many challenges. After two iterations of Trials multiplayer in Evo and Fusion as well as a number of updates we’ve made many improvements but we feel that we have yet to get Trials multiplayer to where we would like it to be.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-EvoMPscreen.png

Trials Evolutions multiplayer was a fun fresh new way to play Trials but as the first iteration there was plenty of room for improvement and players agreed. Single player remained the primary mode for players with 92% of tracks completed happening in single player modes. 87% of Evo players never played an online or local multiplayer match. Looking at the public multiplayer modes, Supercross, Trials & Hardcore Trials, the stats get even smaller. Overall, players spent more time in Trials Evo customizing their character than they spent in public multiplayer modes.


Because of the performance of the feature in Evolution we decided to take a step back and completely redesign online multiplayer for Trials Fusion. Among the biggest changes were the increase in players from 4 to 8, allowing every player to view themselves in the first lane of the track, all new scoring and the end game podium. We also had to take a hard look at matchmaking. With only the small number of players that were playing online multiplayer back in the day, and their wide range of skill, matchmaking is a really big challenge. Of course we want matchmaking to be fast but we also want to match players as closely as we can with opponents at similar skill levels. To address these concerns we consolidated the public multiplayer to just 1 mode. Finally we had to look at ranking where we needed both a system that wouldn’t become too static and could be used to help matchmaking. To achieve this we went with a Glicko ratings system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system).

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-FusionMPpaintover.jpg

Rebuilding a multiplayer mode from the ground up is no small task. The time needed to develop the feature combined with our big plans for post launch support and the low usage of multiplayer in Evolution led us to the decision to release online multiplayer as a post launch feature in Trials Fusion. Ultimately this has been proven not to be the optimal choice. While players didn’t spend much time in the mode it became clear after the launch of Fusion that it was something that many expected.


Before we go any further this is a great time to point out one of our big learnings from Trials Fusion; don’t launch a core Trials game without online multiplayer.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-FusionMPscreen1.png

There were some other lessons to be learned from Fusion’s multiplayer mode as well. While the Glicko system is great for assessing a player’s skill level, it wasn’t very easy for players to understand it. We love what the Glicko system does for matchmaking but we also think multiplayer could benefit from a more clear method for ranking players on multiplayer leaderboards.


It’s easy to forget that Fusion is only the second time a Trials game has had multiplayer. We’re very happy with the improvements we’ve made over Evo but there is still plenty of room to improve.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-FusionSPscreen.png

We think one thing we could do to get more players using the mode is to improve the meta-game around multiplayer. We think that creating a stronger link between single and multiplayer modes and giving players some extra goals to achieve through meta-game will help attract more players to online competition.


We’ve taken some steps towards this direction already with the introduction of multiplayer seasons. This was a good first step but in Fusion multiplayer is still very separate from single player. Not only do we want to make the mode more fun to play but we also want to make it more visible and attractive to players who focus mainly on the career mode. These are ideas we are currently exploring with the team.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-FusionMPscreen2.png

Another thing we think about is the intensity of multiplayer matches. Online competition should be exciting both for players and spectators. This means finding ways to keep the stakes high throughout matches as well as having a multiplayer mode that is easy to understand. Providing an environment that creates intensity is particularly challenging in Trials because unlike most multiplayer games there is no direct interaction between players. Players can’t bump into or otherwise try to affect each other and these are things we don’t want to do as it starts to significantly alter some core elements of Trials gameplay. Winning should still be about mastering the bike and obstacles.


Finally we want multiplayer to be interesting for players of all skill levels. One method we think is important is different sets of tracks for different skill levels. This is something we do already have in Fusion but it’s not really working as intended because it’s rare to have a lobby where all players are ranked high enough to have the hardest tracks appear. Multiplayer will be more fun for everyone if they are playing with opponents at their skill level.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TGRadio-MP-Banner.jpg (https://soundcloud.com/user-951041428/trials-garage-radio-2-stanislav-costiuc)

In this month’s Trials Garage Radio (https://soundcloud.com/user-951041428/trials-garage-radio-2-stanislav-costiuc) podcast we speak with Lead Game Designer Stanislav Costiuc. During our chat we talk about his history with games and touch upon some of the ways we go about designing new game modes or features. Check it out now on the Trials Radio Soundcloud.


http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-Stan.png

Now we’ve spent a lot of time here discussing public ranked multiplayer. This will always be our primary focus when discussing multiplayer since this should be the pinnacle of online competition in Trials but we do recognize that a lot of players also enjoy playing multiplayer privately with their friends. Not only is private multiplayer a great way to enjoy some friendly Trials competition but many track builders also use this mode to test their creations before releasing them to Track Central.


While our vision for public multiplayer is very focused on competition, when we look at private multiplayer our attention shifts towards freedom. In private multiplayer we’d like players to have the control to create the types of matches they want. We added adjustable parameters to multiplayer so players could create some crazy and fun scenarios. We also created the spectator mode to improve the possibilities when it comes to streaming competitions. We continue to look at how we can expand on these ideas or add new ones to provide players with more freedom in private multiplayer.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TG02-FusionMPlocal.png

Last but certainly not least we should touch upon local multiplayer. We have a small but very active portion of our players that often play local multiplayer so we can’t forget this mode. As more of a party mode the focus for local multiplayer should be on fun. Including the parameter system from private multiplayer is one idea we’ve had to spice up local play but we’d like to find even more ways we can make local multiplayer more interesting for those who enjoy playing with their friends IRL.


Do you have thoughts on what could make public, private or local multiplayer better? Don’t forget to fill out our Trials Garage survey (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KLFQ8DW) and leave any suggestions in the comments section below to let us know.

http://static2.ubi.com/pxm/TrialsFusion/TrialsGarage/TGSurvey-MP-Banner.jpg (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/KLFQ8DW)

That about does it for our Garage update this month. Stay tuned for more Trials discussions in the Trials Garage next month. Until then, we’ll see you on the leaderboards.

fleskeknoke
06-03-2017, 08:44 AM
. Not only is private multiplayer a great way to enjoy some friendly Trials competition but many track builders also use this mode to test their creations before releasing them to Track Central.


I hope this doesn't mean that there will
be no update in how the community
can share tracks for testing in the future.

I hope for a choice when publishing a track
to either publish it to standard TC or to publish it
to a WIP-feed, if you choose the WIP-feed
you should also get the opportunity to
create a password.

That way you can choose to make the track
available to all, or only a select group who
knows the password.
A padlock icon on the tracks in the WIP-feed
that is password protected should make
this a painless experience.

Sertainly much more fluid than inviting to
a multiplayer, getting stuck downloading
UGC tracks in the hundreds etc..

Really hope redlynx will look into a better
way for us to test tracks.

RidingMower
06-03-2017, 04:58 PM
-Scoring System: Change to Evo's. Have the scoring system with Fusion hidden and use it for match making purpose (or get rid of it entirely if it is hard to implement in the game if it were to cause conflict of allowing inviting friends to play with online multiplayer being invited).

-Main game and multiplayer Leader board: I would like to see how I am ranked to others by way of the donkey and also each individual ride. I also feel the addition of Seasons to the L.B. was making more of a hassle. The Seasons added lots of pages to shuffle with the longer it goes on.

-Add track difficulty and type for multiplayer's options: Supercross for 1, regular Trials beginner-med for 2, regular trials med-hard for 3, regular trials hard-extreme for 4, and a fifth option being a dice roll of all the others for those that like to gamble with chance.

-Have a poll here on the forums asking what they think should be the appropriate player count with online multiplayer matches: I didn't like the 8 player matches as much as I expected. I believe 6 players would be a really good balance. Having 3 taking podium finishes is equal to non podium finishers. Building tracks would be easier with less lanes too.

-Make it user friendly, easy to navigate the menu and easy to invite friends: Not much else you can do. It's either a great feature of the game to enjoy, or it's just not the Persons' preference to play at that moment in time, if ever. Just have it available at their convenience.

NSP_I_VeNoMz
06-03-2017, 06:02 PM
I think a cool feature should be allowing players to PB inside of multiplayer, obviously taking into account no parameters have been changed, maybe even just public MP to allow PBing would be cool.

I also would love to have some form of leaderboards for 'MP only' tracks, one of the things that got some popularity in Fusion was trying to get the quickest times on the SXS tracks, but sadly there were no leaderboards so it was just comparing times by messages or in a party chat. Maybe even adding 'Mp only' tracks into track central or something so at least they are available to play and compete on.

It would be cool to have the option to have more than one spectator in an Mp session. Maybe even an option to join an Mp match that is already started to put you into the spectator mode.

I did really enjoy the different MP types in evo with 'hardcore' and 'supercross' so you can play which one you prefer.

VEGASTRASH
06-03-2017, 06:50 PM
Different modes would be welcomed. I know the player base isn't that large for MP, but something a little different possibly.
2 vs. 2 mode, where the control switches each checkpoint.
A bracket style tournament.
A very poor rider gets a small head start based on seconds behind in the last race.
Bike switch, where the bike changes each race...but everyone gets the same one.
Tail on fire, like the skill game...you get as far as you can while on fire.
Acorn entry...everyone puts up X amount and the first 2 get all.
There are much better ideas I haven't just named...I'm sure the team could think up something decent.

Having the 1st lane view was a great addition to Fusion. Same for 8 lanes. I'd prefer 10, but mainly to have a good race for everyone. The greater the number, the better chance many will have close race with someone. Far too often I wouldn't have competitive matches.

Off topic note: In HD and Evo the dynamic lighting was much better...why? In Fusion it appears like many dynamic shadows are extremely pixelated and stopped down to 15fps. Evo/HD didn't have this issue.

RidingMower
06-04-2017, 03:24 PM
Having the 1st lane view was a great addition to Fusion. Same for 8 lanes. I'd prefer 10, but mainly to have a good race for everyone. The greater the number, the better chance many will have close race with someone. Far too often I wouldn't have competitive matches.

I just want to pick on you Mr. VEGAS about this. Your experiences among playing Trials has been acquired from the past three installments. You're a great rider and I've seen you get top 100 runs on tracks. For yourself to say that "Far too often I wouldn't have competitive matches" on a smaller player base playing 8 lane online multiplayer, seems to me like it would be a given no matter how many lanes you were playing.

The match making combined with players skill playing against you, sounds to me like what it is you've encountered. With the limited number of players playing online-multiplayer, just end up getting what we get with it. By adding more lanes right now you'll see the same results and really that is more people loosing to you per/match. Proving this is easy and also proves having more lanes is not a step in the right direction at all. You said "Far too often I wouldn't have competitive matches", meaning you have played a lot and seem to be getting lack of people able to overtake you. This seems to happen often and you even noted it as "Far too often". The different times playing or even back to back matches, if we take the matches side by side, instead of one after the other. We could see these in a sort of 16 or 15 lane race with the same lack of "competitive matches".

The extra lanes cause delay in loading times. With the eight lanes we have now. The task of your console / comp retrieving the info on other players can be noted as another reason why having more lanes being a bad call. Even the time before the matches start, the other players different style and color of bike and rider is being retrieved. The more players, the longer it takes, but that's not all that could be affected here. To cut down on loading times with this, we could see less options in the garage towards our own cosmetic upgrades. Something like we are seeing in Fusion right now, where individual plastic and bike parts can't be colored.

I'm going to be brutally honest with you and say with Trials in particular, say less is best. I'm firm on the 6 max. With internet connections and 60fps game-play, believe it would be the best of the middle ground in multiplayer.

RidingMower
06-04-2017, 04:31 PM
Finally we want multiplayer to be interesting for players of all skill levels. One method we think is important is different sets of tracks for different skill levels. This is something we do already have in Fusion but it’s not really working as intended because it’s rare to have a lobby where all players are ranked high enough to have the hardest tracks appear. Multiplayer will be more fun for everyone if they are playing with opponents at their skill level.

This is another reason why I believe a 6 player max would be a more balanced multiplayer experience. With you saying "because it's rare to have a lobby where all players are ranked high enough to have the hardest tracks appear".

It would also be a way to easier navigate Track Central. Seeing as Fusion's Track Central uses slots with:

-new super-cross (4-lane local)
-top rated of the month super-cross (4-lane local)
-top rated all time super-cross (4-lane local)

and the 8 lane section with superXcross

-new superXcross
-top rated of the week/month superXcross
-top rated all time superXcross

A six lane could combine the two types for play-styles in regards to playing multiplayer. Easier building with a single build mechanic towards multiplayer tracks. With a 6 lane super-cross track, speculating here but it might be able to include builders the option of having the use OPE's or Physics enabled joints to track creations.

VEGASTRASH
06-04-2017, 06:03 PM
8 or 6 player will have no impact either way. You can prefer 6...I'd prefer 12.
Load times would probably increase the more you have, but not much. Look at COD. Loads up quickly. And framerate and load times aren't related.
Regardless of player count, everyone wants a fun competitive MP. The question is...what is the most efficient way of doing this?
More players doesn't mean more fun...I'll take my Battlefield gameplay for example vs. Gears of War. Higher player count does give you a better chance of playing someone with a higher skill level or one close to you. It's simple math on that end.
As far as creating the tracks...4,6, or 12 lanes doesn't take much more to create. It's a lot of copy/pasting.

I don't see developers shooting for more than 8...which can work if it's launched with the game...as it was stated in the original post. It's hard for something to have a fair chance when it's released 10 months into a game. The first lane view again...was a great change to MP. MP is difficult. So many people who can't play trials. To make it engauging for all is a challenging task....while keeping people playing the same modes.
Cross play would greatly help the player base. Much like Rocket League. It's possible, but more hassle dealing with the companies and coding I'm sure is more involved.

RidingMower
06-04-2017, 06:21 PM
With the implementation of each track used in multiplayer having its own Leader board. Would definitely help in match making and make for better competition towards how they, as players rank with playing it.

The lobby has (X amount of players in Que ((let's say 60))) and the game has already determined 4 tracks to have these players play for that minute in time. The server checks the players LB positions and adds their respected times to a total number for each player. That is then compared to allow the fastest player to be matched with the next fastest player, and continues in that order with the entire Que.

Also I would like to see online players have their badge level be shown. The one that was implemented in the likes of Evo. It was also in Fusion but that was hidden and could only really be compared within the friends list. It was a nice intimidation feature to have. Showed how much you've accomplished and time spent in the game. I knew if I seen someone with a highly evolved one, that they were really good and it gave myself a goal to try and overtake them. If they had one that was just starting, but they were mastering the multiplayer match and just dominating everything, then they were obviously a 2nd account of a top rider. Having a LB for the individual multiplayer tracks would help with this sort of thing also when it comes to match-making.

RidingMower
06-04-2017, 06:55 PM
8 or 6 player will have no impact either way. You can prefer 6...I'd prefer 12.
I like your perspective on this if we were actually talking about beers. I would prefer a twelve pack over six with that sort of thing, but this game would taste pis poor with longer loading times, less customization, and sub par internet service. There is a real good chance of coming across a couple of these if we were to allow more players. As for First Person Shooters go, wouldn't that be a better discussion to have in the Trials of the Blood Dragon forum? With a 12 player multiplayer campaign, Rip Battlefield and GoW.

I ShinFenix I
06-04-2017, 11:58 PM
- Bring back different MP type like it was on EVO

- It would be cool to have a symbol that show the level of your opponents in the MP based on their rank in Mp or solo leaderboard

- A 2VS2 or 3VS3 MP mode would be absolutely awesome with players switch on every checkpoint like VEGASTRASH said.

- Make the solo tracks playable with X lane in MP at launch if it's possible.

- If you do a similar system of points like it was on fusion it would be cool to make it more clear to understand for player beacause on fusion sometime we lost points without understand why.

- The possiblity to get a PB for the solo in MP would be incredible like venomz said.

Psyhodelik
06-05-2017, 08:06 AM
Two thing that will be very cool for me on multiplayer is :

The possibility to search and find track directly trough the multiplayer and not only based on my favorite list.

A trackmania mode where we can run a track during 5 minutes and keep the best time. It's one of the best mmultiplayer mode for this kind of game for me.

Braders77UK
06-07-2017, 11:47 PM
What I believe would be nice to have included within private MP is the ability to favourite/save the track from a simple click of a button.

Also, I feel a HUD of some description would be beneficial, to show what track is being played and who it was who created it, as this information is only available for a short time during the set-up and loading sequences.

Both of these suggestions would be beneficial in private matches that is being hosted by another player.

I'd also support any implementation of a spectator mode, as at present, it's only the host who can spectate.. 2 or more bespoke slots in public and private lobbies would be, in my opinion, a great addition.

Thanks

RidingMower
06-08-2017, 01:06 AM
I'm excited and very passionate about playing supercross. I was hooked to playing supercross in Trials Evo and even kept a time sheet to record the fastest runs. Here it is....

1- A drop in the ocean.......... 29.036
2- Dirt devils.......................... 25.625
3- Hang time.......................... 24.083
4- Hanger s2......................... 23.030
5- Hard hat crew................... 27.206
6- Hill billy............................... 21.849
7- Hit the dirt.......................... 22.887
8- laundry day....................... 23.223
9- Mountain madness............ 26.223
10- Pipe dreams.................... 19.682
11- Pripyat............................. 24.934
12- Race to the top............... 22.546
13- RedLynx race................. 24.553
14- Sky high.......................... 23.199
15- Up down......................... 19.932
---------------------------------------------
16- Adrenaline arena............ 35.871
17- Big top derby.................. 27.735
18- Cloud Citadel................... 30.405
19- Deep sea dash................ 24.198
20- Gigacross degree........... 57.516
21- Jungle japes.................... 24.373
22- Rollercross...................... 34.329
23- Rooftop rumble................ 35.100
24- Sahara showdown......... 27.177
25- Tomb riders...................... 28.850

Supercross isn't that different from regular Trials. The goal to not fault and reach the finish faster than anybody else. Even multiplayer tracks are played by the same rules as the campaigns . The leaderboard in multiplayer shouldn't be any different to how they should be scored.

I liked Evo's supercross for a bunch of reasons. I'll skip the boring junk and get to a point right off the bat. FAIRNESS.... Every game played today has a balance. It can be hard or easy. The thing has to have fairness. The fairness in Evo's supercross was the podium to its four players playing. Goal was to be 1st (gold), while coming out on 2nd (silver) still meant you came out on top. Coming in 3rd (cruddy bronze) put you on the bottom of the podium, while last is not rewarded at all. It felt fair playing. A 2 vs 2 thing.

Now for Fusion, the larger 8 crowd setup. This is unfair. Having more players, but not having a win for the top half playing. Mr VEGAS brought up the point about Battlefield vs CoD vs GoW. Shooters with a large player base battling each other. They are funner with more people his point was being. That is still a fair match with those no matter how many more or less players play them. A team will win against another team of equal amount of players. That is fairness. 50players vs 50players, a 1vs 1 breaking it down.

Trials supercross has the podium as the reward. That is only 3 that can be rewarded at a time. For fairness reasons this makes for 6 players max. To have that 1 vs 1 game feel.

Here is a picture of a race as an example.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CFE3JPsUsAAY6yf.jpg:large

Notice even with one person dropping out. That the winners vs losers is off by one yet. More people feel bad while fewer people feel good here. Over time that happens again and again. People just don't enjoy losing and the player base drops because of this. With a fairness of 3 winners vs 5 losers.

As having the less lanes in Evo, shown in this pic.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/G5IjOW-_RJE/maxresdefault.jpg
Was easier to make tracks.

With 6 lanes just as simple. Playing it would work for Private, local and online supercross multiplayer. No need to build separately of an 8 lane track or a 4 lane track.

onesimpleclik
06-08-2017, 01:14 AM
Different modes would be welcomed. I know the player base isn't that large for MP, but something a little different possibly.
2 vs. 2 mode, where the control switches each checkpoint.
A bracket style tournament.
A very poor rider gets a small head start based on seconds behind in the last race.
Bike switch, where the bike changes each race...but everyone gets the same one.
Tail on fire, like the skill game...you get as far as you can while on fire.
Acorn entry...everyone puts up X amount and the first 2 get all.
There are much better ideas I haven't just named...I'm sure the team could think up something decent.
.

These ideas are great. I'd love to see all of them in the next Trials game at some point.

VEGASTRASH
06-08-2017, 05:11 AM
So Rider...I'm thinking 6 would be perfect:)
The 3 win/3 lose formula to retain more player because fewer will feel bad because they lost seems like a sign of the times. It's similar to giving every kid a trophy, just because he showed up to play the game. In life, a few win...most lose. 12 people...3 podium spots. If the kid wants to not keep playing because he gets smashed...good:). One less poor Trials player to watch:)

Local play may be used by some, but to me it's useless. I'd like to see some other local game modes than a straight race. Maybe a heads up mode for local with different events. The events would vary...say 5 events, longest wheelie, fastest time on a short track, highest hill climb...etc...then combine the scores for the winner.
I'm sure many better ideas for local are among us....but something other than basic racing could be more interesting.
This mode could be used online to. Olympic event trials...etc

RidingMower
06-08-2017, 10:32 AM
So Rider...I'm thinking 6 would be perfect:)
The 3 win/3 lose formula to retain more player because fewer will feel bad because they lost seems like a sign of the times. It's similar to giving every kid a trophy, just because he showed up to play the game. In life, a few win...most lose. 12 people...3 podium spots. If the kid wants to not keep playing because he gets smashed...good:). One less poor Trials player to watch:)

Can you claim a game that isn't fair and yet enjoyed by many? Games of all types from the earliest days of civilized man have had a 1 vs 1 way of playing. Even things other than player against player, like for instance playing the lottery has a fairness factor because the chances of winning are even with everyone else. Board games, hoarse shoes, darts, bean bags, jousting, and boxing all have a fairness. It's not about the signs of the times. Every type of sports game today still plays by this formula of fairness in competition and have been doing it since it was first invented. Every game in your video game library is also played by this fairness formula.

It's about Trials and how to make it something more enjoyable in multiplayer. Having any other number than 6 plays out the way it is playing out now because it's only about being 1st. I'm sorry for making a big stink with this. Truth is I'm fine with any way that the game comes out with.

I like you Mr VEGAS, you're good peoples person. :D

KnockoffNate
06-08-2017, 12:56 PM
I have never been interested in the multiplayer part of trials.. so don't really have much to offer. But i do really enjoy the head-to-head style of game play in trials frontier, where you have to try to own all 3 tracks. Plus the midnight circuit events are fun.

As Psychodelik mentioned, a trackmania mode sounds cool!

Maybe more incentive would make multiplayer more appealing. Like using in game currency as a wager.. prizes, such as gear for your bike/character.

Off Topic - Is redlynx doing anything at E3?

VEGASTRASH
06-08-2017, 02:53 PM
Mower: To quickly summarize...12 enter, top 3 place. It's plenty fair. You don't need half the field to get a pat on the back. Imagine if the Olympics gave out 8 medals for an event of 16 competitors. It's almost laughable.
Enjoyment should come from playing the game alone...if a kid or worse...an adult needs an imaginary medal in a video game he/she has issues. Even achievements are ironic in gaming. Achieve/playing video games should never be in the same sentence.
A sport game where one wins one loses...has zero to do with a race where 12 or 8 enter. If you want a medal...get better at trials...just like anything in life. What's next, RL picks anyone who didn't get a RL pick? 90% of builders or more get zero. Do we cater to them next just so they don't feel bad?
Maybe a good thing is to have animated crying for the bottom half of the field in a puddle of tears, along with whimpering sounds.I like this one. You would get a millennial mother calling RL in outrage asking for a mature rating.
This thread is gold, silver, and bronze...special participation award.

RidingMower
06-08-2017, 05:12 PM
Mower: To quickly summarize...12 enter, top 3 place. It's plenty fair. You don't need half the field to get a pat on the back. Imagine if the Olympics gave out 8 medals for an event of 16 competitors. It's almost laughable.
Enjoyment should come from playing the game alone...if a kid or worse...an adult needs an imaginary medal in a video game he/she has issues.
That's not the direction I would want for the game game at all. If it sounds like I'm pampering the public here, you've got the wrong message.

I want this next game to be the greatest of anyTrials game they have ever made. They said they want this multiplayer portion to be more in-line with core game. Getting more to play the multiplayer portion of the game. As of right now multiplayer isn't that big and it's not really getting more popular or taking off. It's just mundane racing it. The larger player count in multiplayer lobbies makes it a hassle making full lobbies, muting players and figuring out who in parties is talking to begin with. Then playing the game with a large crowd. The supercross tracks reach the horizon and it's all that can be seen for a background. The other players ghosts take up the whole Drive-Line making it hard to see. Your console or computer has to work harder to read the all the other players controller inputs and physics taking place. Playing with a large crowd isn't as fun because of the games pacing also. The excitement of overtaking somebody else wears off when it constantly pulling ahead and falling behind 5 times per seconds.

Doing 6 max is a way to make the game play more personal. Give it a proper power to performance, graphics and structure of the racing experience. It still holds getting first place as priority when playing. I'll say it again the goal is to be the best. Just like it is with playing Fusion's 8 player multiplayer, and Evo's 4 player. That fairness is to be the best of all the others playing is still with having a 6 player multiplayer, but the difference is that it would also add another fairness in addition to it because of the podium involved. It is a personal and a more comprehensive racing experience. The game will even benefit from a more reserved use of resources.

Love you VEGAS... xoxo

VEGASTRASH
06-08-2017, 07:39 PM
Ok...we will do 6 then.
MP is a small part of Trials...I'm guessing it always will be...regardless of what is done. To me, the game is about building and beating your previous time. I'm all for a great MP experience, but 6,8, or 20 will not matter.
Smaller player count is more personal...but I like to keep my distance from game geeks and slaughter the field whenever possible. I save my intimate moments in life for certain sites on the web and an occasional interaction with a female.

Devils_Demon
06-09-2017, 11:44 AM
I just wanna know why I suck at mp but can be a beast in sp. Seriously, as soon as I get into an mp match it's like a skill switch in my brain gets switched to the off position.

Anyway, mp definitely needs a lot of work. As it is now it feels like mp is only there for testing tracks before they get published.
There's no sense of progression in mp. Whether I win or lose I don't really care because it's pointless.
Treat mp like any other mp game. Have unlocks and levels. Let us unlock cosmetic gear for our rider and bike by advancing through the ranks. Give us our own stat page with wins/losses etc.
Trials at it's core is about chasing your pb and moving up in the leaderboard. Bring that same core into mp. Have mp leaderboards, ghosts of friends (whether they're in the mp session with you or not), and basically just make it more about competition and less about "just a quick laugh between a group of friends".

As for local mp, that needs even more work. Respawning at cp if you fall behind is extremely unfair if you're in the lead. It's impossible to have a proper race with someone.
Split screen is obvious answer.

I ShinFenix I
06-09-2017, 07:40 PM
I think it would be great to RL ( Redlynx ) to get some inspiration from RL ( Rocket League ) Muliplayer like the ranking système to know exaclty the lvl of your opponents and to motivate people to have a better rank with a reward at the end of a season.

UbiSkyBear
06-13-2017, 09:51 PM
Thanks to everyone for all the great comments and suggestions so far. We’ll answer what we can, others we might revisit after we’ve had some time to discuss more thoroughly with the team.

UbiSkyBear
06-13-2017, 09:53 PM
I hope this doesn't mean that there will be no update in how the community can share tracks for testing in the future.

I hope for a choice when publishing a track to either publish it to standard TC or to publish it to a WIP-feed, if you choose the WIP-feed you should also get the opportunity to create a password.

That way you can choose to make the track available to all, or only a select group who knows the password. A padlock icon on the tracks in the WIP-feed that is password protected should make
this a painless experience.

Certainly much more fluid than inviting to a multiplayer, getting stuck downloading UGC tracks in the hundreds etc.

Really hope redlynx will look into a better way for us to test tracks.

We have looked into other options for builders to test tracks. A system like the one you propose is not an easy thing to implement into track sharing and will take time to develop. We discussed something like this for Fusion but were not able to free the time from the developers needed to make it happen. We continue to discuss features like this when we talk about track sharing but there are many aspects of a Trials game that will take priority over it. While we would also like some type of feature like this we cannot promise any changes to how tracks are shared.

UbiSkyBear
06-13-2017, 09:58 PM
Main game and multiplayer Leader board: I would like to see how I am ranked to others by way of the donkey and also each individual ride. I also feel the addition of Seasons to the L.B. was making more of a hassle. The Seasons added lots of pages to shuffle with the longer it goes on.

We love leaderboards and improving the LB experience is something we think about a lot.


Make it user friendly, easy to navigate the menu and easy to invite friends: Not much else you can do. It's either a great feature of the game to enjoy, or it's just not the Persons' preference to play at that moment in time, if ever. Just have it available at their convenience.

Thanks for the suggestion on this too. The usability of menus is definitely something we talk a lot about as well.

UbiSkyBear
06-13-2017, 10:00 PM
Different modes would be welcomed. I know the player base isn't that large for MP, but something a little different possibly.
2 vs. 2 mode, where the control switches each checkpoint.
A bracket style tournament.
A very poor rider gets a small head start based on seconds behind in the last race.
Bike switch, where the bike changes each race...but everyone gets the same one.
Tail on fire, like the skill game...you get as far as you can while on fire.
Acorn entry...everyone puts up X amount and the first 2 get all.
There are much better ideas I haven't just named...I'm sure the team could think up something decent.

Having the 1st lane view was a great addition to Fusion. Same for 8 lanes. I'd prefer 10, but mainly to have a good race for everyone. The greater the number, the better chance many will have close race with someone. Far too often I wouldn't have competitive matches.

Off topic note: In HD and Evo the dynamic lighting was much better...why? In Fusion it appears like many dynamic shadows are extremely pixelated and stopped down to 15fps. Evo/HD didn't have this issue.

As we discussed in the article including more modes in public multiplayer is a big challenge for matchmaking so we’re likely to continue with our focus on a single public mode that is all about pure competition. These more “fun modes” are the types of things we think about when discussing private multiplayer. Any new mode that requires new systems or changes to the basic way the game works, a 2v2 with switching controls for example, also takes a lot more time to develop, test and polish so there is a lot to consider. We’re happy you like some of the improvements we made with multiplayer in Fusion. As this discussion is about multiplayer we’re only focusing on multiplayer responses at this time.

UbiSkyBear
06-13-2017, 10:02 PM
Two thing that will be very cool for me on multiplayer is:

The possibility to search and find track directly trough the multiplayer and not only based on my favorite list.

A trackmania mode where we can run a track during 5 minutes and keep the best time. It's one of the best multiplayer mode for this kind of game for me.

Thanks for the suggestions. These are both cool ideas and things the team has discussed.

QuietlyWrong
06-18-2017, 01:58 PM
Pre-amble
Multiplayer modes: love 'em all. But most of my experience is with private lobby online multiplayer. For many months I ran a weekly private lobby every Wednesday evening for a bunch of PS4 players. We had a lot of fun and laughed a lot (one time uncontrollably; some of us nearly asphyxiated). This may colour my views somewhat. Hopefully usefully so.

I should point out for the record that I'm not very good at this game. Sure, I'm level 137 and have some platinum medals but that's from sheer red-faced persistence. I still have yet to complete any track harder than Greater Crater. Many of my private online competitors are of a similar level. I suspect we see things a bit differently from the ninjas.


Private online multiplayer
Seriously great fun. Line up some tracks, optionally permute the settings to do things like reduce gravity, make bikes invisible, force everyone to use the donkey, set riders on fire or make the bikes overpowered. Or all of those together. If you've never really tried it, you should - it even kinda works for one player. A group of friends came together every week to play maybe three or four 'playlists' of eight tracks at a time in hilarious competition.

Trials Fusion doesn't make this as easy as it could.

I used to do my research each week, seeking out new UGC that looked fun, testing it to make sure I could complete it without too many faults, making sure the creator thought to include checkpoints and seeing if there were any interesting combinations of those user settings that resulted in good races. A small difference to bike power or gravity can completely change the optimum driving lines - or render some tracks much more difficult, even impossible. Some single-player tracks work well enough alone but lag to the point of unplayability when multiple ghosts are present.

On the other hand some big differences can change a track completely. A common trick is to set gravity close to zero and allow bailout finishes. Then - for a straight track - the quickest (and often only) way to finish is to bailout from the start line and fly your rider through the obstacle course, trying not to fly over the top of the finish-line's collision detection. This works best for tracks with ceilings, for obvious reasons, and can be a complete hoot. Alas the game's camera just doesn't cope very well with this mode of play in spectator mode, but that can be part of the fun. Some people have made no-grav tracks specifically for this mode of play.

I also spent a happy afternoon once determining that someone of my ability could successfully negotiate one of the built-in XSC tracks (probably Pigeons & Squirrels) with gravity set to 300% on all of the available bikes (disclaimer: this was before the Donkey and Unicorn were introduced to the game), with comical appearance. So I could add that to our multiplayer playlist, and it was a lark. Proper preparation in advance made for a fun evening but was quite time-consuming.

So what would I like to see, improvement-wise?

The ability to save playlists of tracks to play - the set-up between rounds always seemed to take too long, adding individual tracks from a bulging and un-ordered favourites list; thank heavens for lively party chat while I went through that.
...So a way to sort the favourites list might be nice...
The ability to save the combination of track and custom settings as a single 'favourite' - take the example of Pigeons & Squirrels @ 300% gravity. I'd probably need a custom setting just for that instance (would be useless on most tracks) perhaps also limiting the bikes available to the fun/capable ones. Even more awesome if I can add a little descriptive text to each combo to identify it more easily or just amuse my friends. I used to have a notebook around here full of scribbled notes of track/setting combos that worked well. I can't find it. All that research lost. :(
Naturally I'd then want to be able to save a named playlist of combined tracks-and-settings. Would make setting up each round so much quicker - if prepared in advance.
If I create a fun combo or full playlist, how about being able to easily share it? At one point I might have tested high-gravity on other XSC tracks but it was very time-consuming. How awesome if someone else can tell you what ideas work?
Spectator mode, usually noticed on completing a track before your mates (or faulting too many times) is somewhat held to ransom by customised cameras. There are some lovely tracks that become very boring in spectator mode because the camera isn't following the rider. And the aforermentioned low-grav launch-and-fly option seems to break the spectator mode it its own unique way ;). It would be nice to be able to override those custom cameras or even just see what your opponent is actually seeing while they continue to play.
Not all tracks have podiums. I try to end a playlist with one I know does (and once snuck in a hand-made comical podium - yes you can add fourth, fifth, sixth, etc.), but how about a generic podium where a level has none?
Probably beyond the capabilities of the current Trials engine but split-screen online multiplayer would be a joy for those people who like to couch co-op. Even an online version of 4-player local multiplayer with support for couch competition at one or more ends would be nice to have.
I whole-heartedly approve of PBs being achieved while on multiplayer (using vanilla settings; public or private). I feel like I have an amazing run now and again and am frustrated that it can't update my career mode times/medals. I can't even see how it compares to my best. If a player comes last but 'PB' flashes up for all to see, that player can take a little pride in their achievement.
People invited to a session but unable to start on time should still be able to join as spectators.
The penalty for a DNF in a casual game - no points at all - seems a little harsh in the context of a balanced leaderboard. How about some points based on furthest point/checkpoint reached?
I'm naturally in favour of more customisable options. How about a Random Bike option? Either everyone gets the exact same random bike or everyone just gets one chosen for them at random - probably best if it takes into account the 'allowed' bikes elsewhere in the custom settings (I play local MP with friends kids whereby we just hold a directional button down during the bike selection step). How about giving health points to the bikes? A cosmetic change like time of day or fog distance/tint can add variety to proceedings (even if it wouldn't necessarily work well for every track). Turbine Terror might feel fresh in the dark.
It would be nice if the split-second timings at the end of the race were shown for a little longer before shuffling into total points order. Those split-second victories are worth a little extra time for bragging rights. Maybe the game could even highlight really close pairs of riders.
Finally I'd like to be able to test stuff as a single player without necessarily having to go online and create a private lobby. If I want to play any of the XSC tracks or ride an invisible unicorn through Shear Pressure, I can only do that 'online'.



Local multiplayer
As mentioned above, it would be cool if this worked across a network. It's a different game to online MP. Custom options would be AWESOME.

However a couple of things to address...

If you're in a tight race and you crash between the final checkpoint and the finish-line, you automatically DNF with no points. This is horribly unfair. It also happens very frequently, especially when someone forgets to turn on bailout finishes. :mad:

Oh and there's one built-in track, sorry, can't remember the name (Edit: it's Rooftop Runners), where you fall through a vertical finish line and it doesn't always register the player finishing. Very frustrating when you cross the line first but the game gives you a DNF instead.

There seem to be too many occasions where one player goes out in front, usually on a Panda, and has gone several metres at speed past a checkpoint before the other players are reset to that checkpoint at a standstill. You can easily get into a vicious cycle of one player barrelling through multiple checkpoints knocking out all opponents over and again.



Tournaments
This hasn't had any attention; it's not really MP but it straddles the line between MP and SP. An asynchronous competition. It also seems woefully underused. Not entirely surprising, since the variety of tournaments seems extremely limited and for the more casual players (including me) the majority of events include Hard tracks. How many faults I make on a Hard track on any given run seems to be a random number between about 10 and 200, so that's off-putting. As elsewhere stated I can't even complete an Extreme track.

And given that there are so few different tournaments, why not retain best-time ghosts across tournaments? At least then I could race against friends who partook of, say, Swans and Berries last month even if they're not playing now.

With the right incentive I think there's a good case for 'track of the day', along similar lines to the tournaments. Every day you have one day to set the best time (or score) on a selected track; compare your results with your friends list. Include some wacky reimagining of tracks using custom options and bike restrictions, because Dirt Derby is a different track at 50% gravity and 75% engine power. And reversed controls. With extra boost for performing tricks. And accelerator permanently on. (In case you haven't played much private online MP, these are all tweakable options.)


Other thoughts
Plenty of comments above about the number of players. For me, in my private online MP bubble, the more the merrier, as long as the engine can handle it. There were plenty of times that people had to miss out because I already had 8 willing contestants. Give me 16, even if that means XSC riders sharing lanes with ghosts. Or let me add SuperCross tracks to my online MP playlist with two riders per lane. Sacrifice some visuals if need be, when I'm having fun, I don't care.

And actually, as someone who's not so good at the game, I like my public MP to have more players in it too. When you're mediocre it's nice to have other mediocre people to compete against. The fewer players there are in a session the more likely I am to come last.

There might be more multiplayer tracks on Track Central if the editor included a symmetry tool that allowed me to place 8 copies of an object simultaneously on to each of the 8 driving lines. (Or indeed 4 on to each of the 4; or 4 across 8, depending on the lane width, etc.) Just saying. Yeah, a good creator may want to vary things up here and there, but it's a great way to get the driving line set up to begin with.


If you want to get more people playing multiplayer, why not give it away? Create a version of the game that includes only the public MP (and perhaps tournaments) by default, allow people to pay to unlock the full career mode/editor/track central/acorns. Then either give this cut-down MP version away free or stick it on Games With Gold and PlayStation Plus and Humble Monthly or equivalent. Just an idea...

RidingMower
06-18-2017, 05:12 PM
When you're mediocre it's nice to have other mediocre people to compete against. The fewer players there are in a session the more likely I am to come last.

Hello QuietlyWrong

You made a very nice write up and did a really good at explaining it all. I uphold your input to the multiplayer aspect in high regards as you have invested towards this experiences plenty. Something I find unique in this case is the scenarios that you describe. Especially to the quoted above. That might be how you perceive it occurring in the way Fusion places players against each other. The setup of pairing players in Fusion's online Multi-player races are not balanced respectively.

I'm hoping they make it so that your quickest time on the tracks about to be played get added together.

*Example: Your fastest time on the tracks picked for playing online multiplayer at that moment.

Track Uno: 25.025 seconds
Track Dos: 20.002 seconds
Track Tre: 32.102 seconds
+
-----------------------------
77.129 seconds

You will be matched with Five other players with the closest time to your time.

You could be the fastest of those Five other players, or you could be the slowest of that. It is a fair deal because you will always with others in that have the closest skill level to your own.

It's going to continually help a player push their skills. As they get faster, it gets more competitive and will help to further their skill. You'll always be paired with other players sharing your skill level.

When the lobby has "X" amount of players in Que, (let's say 5,000) and the game has already determined 3 tracks to have these players play for that minute in time. The server checks the players LB positions and adds their respected times to a total number for each player. That is then compared to allow the fastest player to be matched with the next fastest player, and continues in that order with the entire Que.

I'm still firm on the six players max part of online multiplayer as for some reason. Intuition with it taking off at that number. Plus seeing the complexity bar for building getting a great benefit and knowing creators will be able to create tracks with less drain towards that complexity meter.

RidingMower
06-18-2017, 05:51 PM
Other thoughts
Plenty of comments above about the number of players. For me, in my private online MP bubble, the more the merrier, as long as the engine can handle it. There were plenty of times that people had to miss out because I already had 8 willing contestants. Give me 16, even if that means XSC riders sharing lanes with ghosts. Or let me add SuperCross tracks to my online MP playlist with two riders per lane.

I like this idea as long as it is a Private online MP thing. I can dig it. :D

RidingMower
06-18-2017, 06:54 PM
So how about a way to make as many players as possible work for doing Private Online MP.
while keeping a stream lined approach for the developers to incorporate.

Since Private Online MP uses one Persons own console/computer to host the match as it is. (I hope the next game to be using a 6 player max lobby system) With having Five others invited to a persons Private Online MP lobby. The Host is able to Create the list of tracks to be played like it is now. With the inclusion of inviting another group of 6.

With in that group of 6 invited. They have a host that made the group themselves and that person's console/computer is what is communicating the events and race results with the original host. This being a 12 player way to do Private Online MP.

The other console/computer players are seen as ghosts or even not at all but the scores are noted as the races unfold. Additional players just need to be hosted, so really these Private Online MP matches could possibly see hundreds players with succession to relay the race among the hosts.

Hope this makes sense. It's just the 1'st person's invited a group together, and that person's also being able to invite a friend that has a totally separate group going on at that moment.

Since hosting is necessary for the races. Can they be hosted simultaneously and have the player count be with as many groups as we desire?

VEGASTRASH
06-18-2017, 07:05 PM
These long paragraphs...including my own remind me of a scene from Boogie Nights where rollergirl and that red haired lady are playing with powder and speaking about taking a pottery class. Round and round...still in the same room with nothing happening:)

RidingMower
06-18-2017, 09:48 PM
These long paragraphs...including my own remind me of a scene from Boogie Nights where rollergirl and that red haired lady are playing with powder and speaking about taking a pottery class. Round and round...still in the same room with nothing happening:)

Great movie! Wish this Forum would get a little more action myself. I'm Ok being the amusement for others at the time being but I'm not sure how others are handling the idea of putting a word in on this Topic.

I hope another update to the Trials Garage will be coming soon. Otherwise I'm up for another round of Trials talk with you Mr. VEGAS.

http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah7/ryan_beranek1/trials%20multiplayer_zpsqd47rgdq.jpg (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/ryan_beranek1/media/trials%20multiplayer_zpsqd47rgdq.jpg.html)

VEGASTRASH
06-19-2017, 01:05 AM
Ok Mower. I'm good with that. I'd like to be rollergirl and you can be the redhead. No funny looks from forum members.
I'm sure they'll have a new topic for July. Better yet, how about a rough release date that is the goal. Don't worry, it's just 6 of us here, plus 50.

RidingMower
06-19-2017, 05:12 AM
Ok Mower. I'm good with that, how about a rough release date.

I got that for you Sir VEGAS. I was dumpster diving for clues behind RedLynx the other day in my investigation towards the supposed game in the making and I stumbled on some interesting bit of information. As it turns out the team at RedLynx is currently hiring for a UI Artist. If you know what that means and catching my drift with this. They implement user interface assets, the UI artist first works with game designers to understand necessary capabilities of the interface. The timing of this is something can be something of an anomaly unless we discuss a finalized phase. As with all of the other applications in this games continuity are in check. I could see going gold in 4 months time. Or a window between Sept. - Dec. the latest.

Of course this is just speculation and nobody should ever trust my judgement with anything. I'm just having a fun time making a prediction here. :rolleyes:

QuietlyWrong
06-19-2017, 09:33 PM
Since Private Online MP uses one Persons own console/computer to host the match as it is. (I hope the next game to be using a 6 player max lobby system) With having Five others invited to a persons Private Online MP lobby. The Host is able to Create the list of tracks to be played like it is now. With the inclusion of inviting another group of 6.

With in that group of 6 invited. They have a host that made the group themselves and that person's console/computer is what is communicating the events and race results with the original host. This being a 12 player way to do Private Online MP.


Yes, if RedLynx decided to reduce the number of lanes available, this sounds like a good feature (actually, the ability to run an event for dozens of people would be awesome under any circumstances). As I say, for a big private group, I'd be happy with graphical degradation down to the case of other riders being represented with floating arrows.



One thing I will say about taking players' best times to match them in public MP is that they're not necessarily representative of usual ability. As I say, sheer persistence allowed me to grab some platinum medals, but those times are serious outliers against my average times, the times I'm most likely to clock up. My best times are mostly achieved with zero faults but on the tougher tracks a zero-fault run (regardless of speed) is something I might achieve less than 5% of the time. My virtual self has an inner ear problem or something...

Unless the game would keep an average time, the Glicko system would still be preferable for me. (And if the game would hold an average time, I wouldn't say no to seeing it, comparing it with friends, being alerted when it gets better...)

RidingMower
06-20-2017, 03:16 AM
Unless the game would keep an average time, the Glicko system would still be preferable for me.

Welcome back QuietlyWrong. I take great pleasure in your presentation and formality used thus far. You're are somewhat of an unusual case and I can admit you have officially picked my interest. I'm eager to find out why you would prefer the Glicko 2 system.

I haven't really met anyone liking it enough to say anything nice about it. I've came across a couple people that liked the fact they could play a little over 20 matches and stop playing just to win seasons. It can also be manipulated by being inconsistent. For instance having a friend come over to play for them, or letting a child play their game for some time. I find the Glicko system has hardly been a truly representative way of fairly matching rider skills. You are more likely to come across playing Mr. VEGAS or myself with this match making, partially because the user base is inherently small at the moment.

I like your suggestion on having a players' track time averaged, and the floating arrows thing is brilliant!

IImayneII
07-12-2017, 06:18 PM
For Fusion, what I disliked for Local Multiplayer. The seperation of maps. Creating maps for local, because of the lower pop playing local, it was almost not worth it. So pretty much all the local multiplayer maps from users where lacking in quality to say the least. That with the low amount of local mp base tracks in the game made it so local was pretty boring after a while. I think a good feature would be to allow local mp on all mp maps. A feature to be able to play locally against people online would benefit the game too I believe. Even tough you are technically in a disadvantage when you play on back lanes, it would help keeping a healthy mp population and even with 2 people locally would make it more interesting.

Also the track selection with not being able to sort tracks on difficulty was horrible. There were also several bugs with tracks not even showing where you had to refavorite those not showing. I also disliked the favorite selection because everything was just lumped together with no way to seperate lists.

And for PC. Please give us a feature to actually backup locally made tracks.

Also, now I think off it. There was a bug breaking several things (like the stat screen), if I remember correctly, when you had more than +200 friends on uplay. No idea if that was ever fixed, but tought it was worth mentioning.

clarx1
11-17-2017, 09:46 AM
Sorry for being very late to this thread. Single Player is the main event but me and my friends love the local MP. Such good fun. I was really disappointed with the local MP in fusion as compared to evolution as I thought this was a major step back. Times were not displayed so you couldn't see how close those tight finishes really were. Very annoying. Also the issue mentioned where faulting on the last CP almost always causes a DNF. This happened occasionally and on certain tracks in Evolution but no where near as much.

Please fix this. I will buy the game for the single player but I know a lot of my friends who are less into trials are all about the local MP.