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View Full Version : Look how punishable the kick is.



OokiireteHoshii
05-24-2017, 11:34 PM
https://gfycat.com/ChubbyLoathsomeAntlion
(ofc this is not my video, i found it while browsing forhonor subreddit.)

Netcode_err_404
05-24-2017, 11:37 PM
JUst dodge !11!!!1!!!!11!!

CoyoteXStarrk
05-24-2017, 11:38 PM
Video won't load load for me.

Robert223333
05-24-2017, 11:45 PM
gb

Antonioj26
05-24-2017, 11:49 PM
gb

He can cgb and you'll also eat a heavy in the face if he was mashing the heavy follow up for the kick

Antonioj26
05-24-2017, 11:50 PM
Video won't load load for me.

Not missing anything just classic Ubisoft balance

Lyskir
05-24-2017, 11:56 PM
JUst dodge !11!!!1!!!!11!!

xD

PanzerShrekonin
05-25-2017, 12:03 AM
HA!

CaptainPwnet
05-25-2017, 01:14 AM
Posted this in another thread about the dbl dash kick:

Shinobi kick isn't a problem at all. You can punish the dbl dash in most situations and GB or hit the shinobi before the kick even comes out. Or at least when you trade with the kick it's always in your favor due to the large health difference. You trade the kick with a light for 15 damage lets say and his heavy does 25. 10 damage difference seems fair in most cases since he has 2 bars less health than many heroes. If he were to trade kicks with lights over and over he would likely lose. That's only if you trade with a light, I've noticed bushi can trade with zone which is about half shinobi's health, PK, rochi and warden I know for sure have reliable zone punishes on dbl dash as well so yeah I think people need to stop crying and focus efforts on centurions 4v4 bs potential. I imagine soon enough shinobi will end up useless in 1v1 when people learn it isn't terribly hard to just trade with the kick/gb mixup and heavily punish the squishy shinobi.

Just to make sure you understand as well, any attack used on reaction to punish the dbl dash will either hit shinobi before the kick comes out or trade with the kick or beat the GB. I am not seeing how kick even as it is currently, is even in shinobi's favor at the moment against anyone who knows what they are doing. Good players are learning to trade with it and any trade is not in shinboi's favor. The only one that comes close to ok is the light trade with kick. Every other situation is a huge disadvantage for shinobi. Not saying it's already useless against skilled players just yet but time will tell. Don't think we'll be seeing any shinobi's winning tournaments any time soon.

I would probably agree it does too much stam damage but nothing else is wrong with it. It's not like he can react to you dashing and GB instead of kick, it's a guess on his part as well. Changing anything about the kick aside from the stamina damage will turn it into a useless tool. Removing its armor would make any trade with kick leave shinobi at a HUGE disadvantage thx to his low health, making it slower or more punishable will also destroy it as it isn't hard to dodge already and if he risks a punish on whiff then again it is just never in shinobi's favor to ever use kick. Kick lands he gets 25 damage sure, but if it was avoided and punishable he loses 30+ health depending on hero and if wall is nearby. He already has less health so the risk vs reward would make kick entirely not worth it unless you are just reacting to punish something with it. Then we are back to good ol defensive For Honor where no one attacks until they can react to punish their opponent.

I could see maybe changing it so that other unblockable shoves would trade with it so that both parties are staggered by their opponents shoves and neither can follow up. But anything else and they better put his health up to 4 1/2 bars and make his guard like the other assassins.

In teams I can see how it's frustrating, but is it really more frustrating than all the other unblockables spam? Lets be real here in this situation centurion is far far worse.

Another note, the kick itself is fast yes. But the dbl dash lead up to kick is not and overall makes this move not very fast and very telegraphed and since you can be hit during the dbl dash before the kick even comes out it can be very unsafe.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-25-2017, 01:20 AM
Like I said the video won't load for me, but both kicks are easily punished by anyone who has a dodge Light/Heavy attack. As a Beserker main I have regularly dodged and smacked both classes whenever they go for their kick.


So despite the sarcasm of the thread title they ARE easy to punish.

Knight_Raime
05-25-2017, 01:23 AM
cent can trade a heavy with the kick. it's fast enough. also the shin didn't que a heavy. which means he was anticipating a whiff since he went for a parry.
7/13 current roster has a way to punish a whiffed kick into heavy or into backflip. few can punish both. cent isn't one of them. hes forced to trade.
I still think it should be nerfed via removal of the armor and add a bit of recovery if the kick misses. after recovery frames are over they could backflip.

Knight_Raime
05-25-2017, 01:28 AM
Like I said the video won't load for me, but both kicks are easily punished by anyone who has a dodge Light/Heavy attack. As a Beserker main I have regularly dodged and smacked both classes whenever they go for their kick.


So despite the sarcasm of the thread title they ARE easy to punish.
actually pk's dash attack cant punish either the whiff into heavy or whiff into backflip because her attack moves her into the kick. she can punish the backflip if she dodges forward with that leap heavy.
valks dash attack wont punish the whiff or back flip either. but can punish the backflip with her jump top attack.

but yeah.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-25-2017, 01:31 AM
actually pk's dash attack cant punish either the whiff into heavy or whiff into backflip because her attack moves her into the kick. she can punish the backflip if she dodges forward with that leap heavy.
valks dash attack wont punish the whiff or back flip either. but can punish the backflip with her jump top attack.

but yeah.

I don't play PK very much so I didn't know that. Most talking from experience with my Beserker.

Knight_Raime
05-25-2017, 01:38 AM
I don't play PK very much so I didn't know that. Most talking from experience with my Beserker.

its all good. just speadin knowledge for the sake of knowledge :p

PanzerShrekonin
05-25-2017, 01:45 AM
Like I said the video won't load for me, but both kicks are easily punished by anyone who has a dodge Light/Heavy attack. As a Beserker main I have regularly dodged and smacked both classes whenever they go for their kick.


So despite the sarcasm of the thread title they ARE easy to punish.

What about lawbringer? TYVM.

All we get is a push and a light and its not always guarenteed either.

slasht14
05-25-2017, 01:47 AM
Exactly but in my LB when i dodge the kicks
and going for gb he attacks first.....GG UBI

PanzerShrekonin
05-25-2017, 01:49 AM
Exactly but in my LB when i dodge the kicks
and going for gb he attacks first.....GG UBI

When you dodge, you are forced to push. You dont get the GB anyway on any punish. xD

slasht14
05-25-2017, 01:57 AM
No you dont force yourself to shove. you can also gb if you know the timing.But if you play vs shinoobi he is faster than you and punish you for just dodging his kicks.

PanzerShrekonin
05-25-2017, 02:01 AM
No you dont force yourself to shove. you can also gb if you know the timing.But if you play vs shinoobi he is faster than you and punish you for just dodging his kicks.

Yes you do? If dodge and press square, it forces you into the shove. If you wait, you cant punsih :D

Vingrask
05-25-2017, 02:06 AM
I have a really valid question:

Can Centurion dodge-attack?

Another one:

If it happened with a Warder shoulder, a Warlord headbutt, Conqueror bash or Lawbringer shove, that attack would hit?

PanzerShrekonin
05-25-2017, 02:07 AM
I have a really valid question:

Can Centurion dodge-attack?

Another one:

If it happened with a Warder shoulder, a Warlord headbutt, Conqueror bash or Lawbringer shove, that attack would hit?

Warden yes. Warlord no. Lawbringer yes. Conq... maybe?

You get a free GB on a Lawbringer no doubt.

slasht14
05-25-2017, 02:11 AM
Yes you do? If dodge and press square, it forces you into the shove. If you wait, you cant punsih :D

As i said "No you dont force yourself to shove. you can also gb if you know the timing." if they fix the kick and give us the punish you will be able to dodge and gb bur for now you cant.

Egotistic_Ez
05-25-2017, 02:32 AM
I still don't see the issue everyone seems to have. If the shinobi is close gb him during the dodge. If he's at range get ready to trade a heavy with the kick (for most classes). Yeah you'll get hit too by the follow up, but if he does it again he just dies.

Mia.Nora
05-25-2017, 02:37 AM
Centurion and Shinobi, both kicks are extremely safe since when missed they dont have recovery.

Vs Centurion you can only side dodge it, back dodge still connects unless he was very far.
After he misses the kick, Centurion can immediately go into Heavy, which comes out pretty fast and beats any attack you attempt unless you have sidestep attack in your kit.
And you cant just block it since, since it would queue to Jab even after blocked.
If you attempt to parry, you window is very small, but then he can charge his heavy so it is purely luck even if you manage to pull of parry direction/timing.

You most certainly can not GB a Centurion after he misses his kick, tested more than enough times.



Vs Shinobi, when he miss the kick, with some sidestep attackers, there is a very small window where you both dodge and hit him.
You can not GB Shinobi after he miss the kick.
You can not hit him unless you has sidestep attack in your kit neither. His lights come out much faster after he miss his kick then yours come after you dodge.
There is a small window where you may sidestep>bash>light as LB/Conq but very small, and can not be performed on reaction you have anticipate and play beforehand. In which case if he doesnt kick but goes into light attacks, you lose since they are just ublockable not uninterruptable like Shiboni's kick.


All in all missed kicks are too safe for both classes. Missing should not be safe as such.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 02:49 AM
I still don't see the issue everyone seems to have. If the shinobi is close gb him during the dodge. If he's at range get ready to trade a heavy with the kick (for most classes). Yeah you'll get hit too by the follow up, but if he does it again he just dies.

You are playing against crappy shinobis if they are getting hit with a heavy trade. Decent shins will bait the parry

CaptainPwnet
05-25-2017, 02:51 AM
You are playing against crappy shinobis if they are getting hit with a heavy trade. Decent shins will bait the parry

Thats a complete guess on both parts. Nothing to do with baiting or anything. Not to mentiuon even if you were to use a light it's still in most characters favor over shinobi. Some characters even have zones that do tons of damage to shin. Not to mention often the shinobi will eat the hit during the dbl dash before the shinobi can even do anything. Also if the shinobi is ****ty for not baiting a parry in your situation then his opponent must also be ****ty for not feinting if he realizes the shinobi did not kick.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 02:55 AM
Thats a complete guess on both parts. Nothing to do with baiting or anything. Not to mentiuon even if you were to use a light it's still in most characters favor over shinobi. Some characters even have zones that do tons of damage to shin. Not to mention often the shinobi will eat the hit during the dbl dash before the shinobi can even do anything. Also if the shinobi is ****ty for not baiting a parry in your situation then his opponent must also be ****ty for not feinting if he realizes the shinobi did not kick.

How is it a guess to not use your kick when you see an attack indicator? That is if he can feint you mean, could be too late.

CaptainPwnet
05-25-2017, 03:01 AM
How is it a guess to not use your kick when you see an attack indicator?

Because the input window for kick isn't that large and also they won't be reacting until they see the dbl dash animation. You will have already committed to the kick by the time you see that indicator otherwise you can't kick. So you are already deciding to bait the parry or kick before you even dash.

Regardless if you agree or not, in your situation as I said it's just as easy for the opponent to feint his attack if the shinobi was to "bait the parry".

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 03:07 AM
Because the input window for kick isn't that large and also they won't be reacting until they see the dbl dash animation. You will have already committed to the kick by the time you see that indicator otherwise you can't kick. So you are already deciding to bait the parry or kick before you even dash.

Regardless if you agree or not, in your situation as I said it's just as easy for the opponent to feint his attack if the shinobi was to "bait the parry".

Unless it's too late to feint

Egotistic_Ez
05-25-2017, 03:24 AM
Unless it's too late to feint

With respect, your counter argument is getting ridiculous. You're at the point where you're essentially saying "shinobi kick is op because my shinobi player is so good he can react to literally everything". Not only is that not the case, even for pro players, you aren't considering input timings at all.

You might as well be saying that heavy attack and gb should be removed from the game, after all, everyone always parries/techs them all the time.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 03:30 AM
With respect, your counter argument is getting ridiculous. You're at the point where you're essentially saying "shinobi kick is op because my shinobi player is so good he can react to literally everything". Not only is that not the case, even for pro players, you aren't considering input timings at all.

You might as well be saying that heavy attack and gb should be removed from the game, after all, everyone always parries/techs them all the time.

With respect the way you disregard shinobis strength is ridiculous. You just brush off his kick like it's nothing because you s hit on bad shinobis who let you parry the heavy follow up after the kick.

Egotistic_Ez
05-25-2017, 03:32 AM
With respect the way you disregard shinobis strength is ridiculous. You just brush off his kick like it's nothing because you s hit on bad shinobis who let you parry the heavy follow up after the kick.

I'll take your attempt at a topic change as an admission that your argument was indeed bs.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 03:35 AM
I'll take your attempt at a topic change as an admission that your argument was indeed bs.

Sure thing pal

BeefMan_
05-25-2017, 04:43 AM
With respect the way you disregard shinobis strength is ridiculous. You just brush off his kick like it's nothing because you s hit on bad shinobis who let you parry the heavy follow up after the kick.

I'm convinced people think Shinobi is balanced because they only fight bad ones.
That's almost how it is for me, for every one untouchable Shinobi death god I fight, I go through 15 who will basically kill themselves trying to play this broken class.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 05:38 AM
I'm convinced people think Shinobi is balanced because they only fight bad ones.
That's almost how it is for me, for every one untouchable Shinobi death god I fight, I go through 15 who will basically kill themselves trying to play this broken class.

Yeah they always say parry or cgb the long range attacks and no half decent shinobi is going to do those atttacks and risk taking a heavy to the face

CaptainPwnet
05-25-2017, 05:48 AM
Yeah they always say parry or cgb the long range attacks and no half decent shinobi is going to do those atttacks and risk taking a heavy to the face

Except I have detailed at length, in 2 of the threads you have posted in how you can easily deal with his main tool. Once that tool is eliminated what does he have? Light attacks? Cause they are no faster than PK lights so yeah. . .

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 08:16 AM
Posted this in another thread about the dbl dash kick:

Shinobi kick isn't a problem at all. You can punish the dbl dash in most situations and GB or hit the shinobi before the kick even comes out. Or at least when you trade with the kick it's always in your favor due to the large health difference. You trade the kick with a light for 15 damage lets say and his heavy does 25. 10 damage difference seems fair in most cases since he has 2 bars less health than many heroes. If he were to trade kicks with lights over and over he would likely lose. That's only if you trade with a light, I've noticed bushi can trade with zone which is about half shinobi's health, PK, rochi and warden I know for sure have reliable zone punishes on dbl dash as well so yeah I think people need to stop crying and focus efforts on centurions 4v4 bs potential. I imagine soon enough shinobi will end up useless in 1v1 when people learn it isn't terribly hard to just trade with the kick/gb mixup and heavily punish the squishy shinobi.

Just to make sure you understand as well, any attack used on reaction to punish the dbl dash will either hit shinobi before the kick comes out or trade with the kick or beat the GB. I am not seeing how kick even as it is currently, is even in shinobi's favor at the moment against anyone who knows what they are doing. Good players are learning to trade with it and any trade is not in shinboi's favor. The only one that comes close to ok is the light trade with kick. Every other situation is a huge disadvantage for shinobi. Not saying it's already useless against skilled players just yet but time will tell. Don't think we'll be seeing any shinobi's winning tournaments any time soon.

I would probably agree it does too much stam damage but nothing else is wrong with it. It's not like he can react to you dashing and GB instead of kick, it's a guess on his part as well. Changing anything about the kick aside from the stamina damage will turn it into a useless tool. Removing its armor would make any trade with kick leave shinobi at a HUGE disadvantage thx to his low health, making it slower or more punishable will also destroy it as it isn't hard to dodge already and if he risks a punish on whiff then again it is just never in shinobi's favor to ever use kick. Kick lands he gets 25 damage sure, but if it was avoided and punishable he loses 30+ health depending on hero and if wall is nearby. He already has less health so the risk vs reward would make kick entirely not worth it unless you are just reacting to punish something with it. Then we are back to good ol defensive For Honor where no one attacks until they can react to punish their opponent.

I could see maybe changing it so that other unblockable shoves would trade with it so that both parties are staggered by their opponents shoves and neither can follow up. But anything else and they better put his health up to 4 1/2 bars and make his guard like the other assassins.

In teams I can see how it's frustrating, but is it really more frustrating than all the other unblockables spam? Lets be real here in this situation centurion is far far worse.

Another note, the kick itself is fast yes. But the dbl dash lead up to kick is not and overall makes this move not very fast and very telegraphed and since you can be hit during the dbl dash before the kick even comes out it can be very unsafe.

Trading lights into kick is not advantageous for anyone except shugoki with hyper armour up. For everyone else it will result in death before the Shinobi. It would take 6 lights at 15 damage to kill this Shinobi, during which time he'd deal 150 damage with the heavies you're trading with. For 18-20 damage lights, it takes 5 hits to kill, during which time the shinobi would deal 125 damage, which is enough to kill all the classes with that much damage.
Add to that the fact that you can't kill with a light attack on recovered hp, and shinobi's ability to completely disengage from a fight entirely whenever he wants, it means that "you win if you just trade into it" is largely ********. Nobody has fast enough heavies to trade with it unless they make a read, which means again, the shinobi can 50/50 you without putting himself in any risk.

The kick is ridiculous as an offensive tool, but it's even more disgusting as a defensive one - the double dodge means it avoids tracking from a bunch of moves that would ordinarily hit a premature dodge, and the speed at which the kick comes out means that once you've taken any offensive shot at the shinobi you are guaranteed to be hit.

You can't even hit him with other shove moves out of the kick. How ridiculous is that?

CaptainPwnet
05-25-2017, 09:30 AM
Trading lights into kick is not advantageous for anyone except shugoki with hyper armour up. For everyone else it will result in death before the Shinobi. It would take 6 lights at 15 damage to kill this Shinobi, during which time he'd deal 150 damage with the heavies you're trading with. For 18-20 damage lights, it takes 5 hits to kill, during which time the shinobi would deal 125 damage, which is enough to kill all the classes with that much damage.
Add to that the fact that you can't kill with a light attack on recovered hp, and shinobi's ability to completely disengage from a fight entirely whenever he wants, it means that "you win if you just trade into it" is largely ********. Nobody has fast enough heavies to trade with it unless they make a read, which means again, the shinobi can 50/50 you without putting himself in any risk.

The kick is ridiculous as an offensive tool, but it's even more disgusting as a defensive one - the double dodge means it avoids tracking from a bunch of moves that would ordinarily hit a premature dodge, and the speed at which the kick comes out means that once you've taken any offensive shot at the shinobi you are guaranteed to be hit.

You can't even hit him with other shove moves out of the kick. How ridiculous is that?

Oh perfect then it's a good useful tool for a low health high risk character. You say no risk at all but thats complete bs. Any character with a good side dodge attack can beat the GB/kick mixup every time. In response the shino can choose to dbl dash into nothing to parry if he notices his opponent doing so. But that is still a guess on both parts. If the shinobi does nothing and the opponent GB's his dashes then he eats a hefty amount of damage. Not to mention as I said depending on where the shinobi is where he dashes you can catch him with Gb before the kick comes out and thats more or less half health gone for the shinobi depending on character whereas his payoff would have been 25 damage, hardly in favor of the shinobi even disregarding his low base health. In no way is the kick "no risk". Just because you can't deal with it does not make it no risk.

Also any character with a good zone attack can also beat the kick/Gb mixup almost every time as well. Ones I know for sure are PK,Rochi,Warden having the most reliable I have seen and bushi being slightly less reliable since it's a little slower but hits much harder. I say less reliable in that it is less likely to beat the dbl dash before kick comes out and will trade with the kick. But that is a trade very much in favor of bushi.

How is it ridiculous that he can't be shoved out of it? He has armor, armor absorbs shoves. If it didn't have armor it would be a mostly useless and way too risky tool to use offensively for shinobi. I feel like people want to keep the defensive meta at this point the way they complain once tools that help you to be offensive show up.

Ontari
05-25-2017, 11:15 AM
People just like to complain when they loose.

They don't care that you can kill a Shinobi with 3 strikes. They don't care that they can counter his long range GB or heavy and put him to the ground for almost a free kill. They seem to have forgotten that you can GB him during his dodges.

These kind of people are just the products of our current times - guys who want to have everything effortlessly.

And well, it is true, if you are matched up against a good Shinobi you are dead. But the same is with good warden. With good raider. With good orochi, zerker, nobushi, warlord and so on and so on.
It is good that game allows you to be a god if you feel your character. It is not a matter of character being OP but a player being very good.


Seriously guys... Shinobi is so damn easy to counter. I get it, he is new so we have to actually LEARN how to fight him. But FFS.... get your lazy arses to work instead of writing salty posts.

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 11:35 AM
Oh perfect then it's a good useful tool for a low health high risk character. You say no risk at all but thats complete bs.
It's an overpowered tool for a low health low risk character who can engage from completely out of range of the entire roster with an armored shove that interrupts anything that isn't a hyper-armoured shugoki. Played badly, shinobi is high risk. Played well, he's almost impossible to kill solely because of the safety and power of kick, which allows you to engage from out of range and immediately disengage back out of range with the backflip (which, again, is armoured, and can't be punished by most characters because it ****s with tracking. In fact trying to punish and failing gives the shinobi a free ranged GB). What's even more disgusting about it is it's a catch-all perfectly safe parry mechanic that can be used in response to anything that isn't a guardbreak.


Any character with a good side dodge attack can beat the GB/kick mixup every time. In response the shino can choose to dbl dash into nothing to parry if he notices his opponent doing so. But that is still a guess on both parts. If the shinobi does nothing and the opponent GB's his dashes then he eats a hefty amount of damage. Not to mention as I said depending on where the shinobi is where he dashes you can catch him with Gb before the kick comes out and thats more or less half health gone for the shinobi depending on character whereas his payoff would have been 25 damage, hardly in favor of the shinobi even disregarding his low base health. In no way is the kick "no risk". Just because you can't deal with it does not make it no risk.
So it's OK for him to be completely untouchable by half the roster (Orochi, Berserker, Raider, Nobushi, Valk and possibly conq are the only ones with side dodge attacks that can connect in time) because the other half can 50-50 him (with a wrong guess resulting in them eating more damage than the shinobi)? And in what world is the shinobi double-dashing within guardbreak range? That's just bad play from the Shinobi, and you can punish bad play on anybody.



Also any character with a good zone attack can also beat the kick/Gb mixup almost every time as well. Ones I know for sure are PK,Rochi,Warden having the most reliable I have seen and bushi being slightly less reliable since it's a little slower but hits much harder. I say less reliable in that it is less likely to beat the dbl dash before kick comes out and will trade with the kick. But that is a trade very much in favor of bushi.
See above. PK and Roach would both die before the shinobi if they trade hits with his kick>heavy. Warden would technically have 10hp left but Shinobi can just retreat to regen the last bar. Nobushi might genuinely be a decent counter but that's hardly indicative of the move being balanced.


How is it ridiculous that he can't be shoved out of it? He has armor, armor absorbs shoves. If it didn't have armor it would be a mostly useless and way too risky tool to use offensively for shinobi.
Armour does not absorb shove - not on Lawbringer, not on Berserker, not on Warlord, not on Kensei, not on Centurion, not on Warden, not in Revenge. The ONLY other instance of armour beating out shove is Shugoki's passive.
If it didn't have armour, it would mean you could actually do something about the kick without needing to have a 400ms attack to trade with it on reaction, but it would still require a read for the defending party, instead of a dodge to neutral on a reaction - a much healthier and more interesting mechanic from a gameplay perspective. If you correctly guess your opponent's next move, you should be rewarded for it. I understand the need for Shinobi to have an edge in 50-50 scenarios because of his HP, but right now he has an overwhelming advantage in any scenario involving the kick. It's even more overpowered than old conq shieldbash was.


I feel like people want to keep the defensive meta at this point the way they complain once tools that help you to be offensive show up.
People want the entire toolkits to be useful, not spammable unblockables that crowd out all other options. Kick spam, shieldbash spam, shoulderbash spam - spam is all boring. Having ONE good option is part of the reason why people left this game in droves.

Ontari
05-25-2017, 11:41 AM
OMG guys..... have you forgotten your favourite cheese tool, the Guard Break?

It is so visible when he is goin for a double dodge. You have a normal dodge time to react with a GB. If you see a Shinobi that dodges a lot (lot of Shinobi's do that) then why you don't interrupt tchem before the kick with a GB? Will you say it's impossible? Easier said than done or other bullshizzit? It is actually easier than a parry, with much more forgiving timing.


Seriously guys.... either you can't adapt at all to different fighting styles or you are just plain bad. Or maybe your ego is too high and you can't stand that a character with 3,5 health bar rekt you.

Ultimately, if you have problems fighting this class, practice with it for free to LEARN you lazy boiz. I bought Shinobi, I played it for a while, I learned his moves. My mains are Kensei and Orochi. I have not more problems with a Shinobi than other classes, it is a matter of player's level.


So FFS, learn to adapt instead of blindly following the patterns you used for these 3 months. It will benefit you greatly.



Seriously, a pro tip for guys with too low intelligence to grasp it. Why do you wait for him to kick? GB him during his dodge for a guaranteed punish....

Draghmar
05-25-2017, 11:44 AM
So it's OK for him to be completely untouchable by half the roster (Orochi, Berserker, Raider, Nobushi, Valk and possibly conq are the only ones with side dodge attacks that can connect in time) [...]
So you know - Nobushi doesn't have true dodge attacks. Both light and heavy doesn't actually dodge and they don't track well so if The Kick won't come directly in your face you will miss. And even then I'm not sure...although I didn't try that yet.

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 12:01 PM
Seriously, a pro tip for guys with too low intelligence to grasp it. Why do you wait for him to kick? GB him during his dodge for a guaranteed punish....

1: Any shinobi worth his salt will not dodge into guardbreak range
2: if he kicks, your guardbreak will bounce off and you'll get hit
3: If he dodges into attack, your guardbreak will whiff and you'll get hit
4: You're an idiot

Ontari
05-25-2017, 12:03 PM
No, I just actually learned how to fight them instead of wasting my time on the forums crying for help to developers. GB is possible, your timing just sucks. If it weren't I wouldn't go here claiming that it works, don't you think?

Good luck being a fodder :D

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 12:06 PM
No, I just actually learned how to fight them instead of wasting my time on the forums crying for help to developers. GB is possible, your timing just sucks. If it weren't I wouldn't go here claiming that it works, don't you think?

Good luck being a fodder :D

You are a bad player playing other bad players. If you're on PC, add me on Uplay, and I'll demonstrate.

Ontari
05-25-2017, 12:09 PM
Yeah of course. I can handle Shinobi with orochi and kensei, so I have to be bad, because you can't do nothing about them. Yeah. That is foqen reasonable :D And yeah, I bet every Shinobi that I defeated has to be bad. This also makes sense.

Man... I'm so sorry that you can't adapt to the fighters. But seriously, train hard and eventually you will get better. It is not that hard. But you have to be aware of character's options and be able to read them. But if you can't read your oponent after 3 months then it can be quite difficult now. Nevertheless, good luck kid!

DrExtrem
05-25-2017, 12:09 PM
First, its PC footage. Very smooth PC footage.

Dodging and parrying is in general more easy to do on PC, than it is on console. Even on PC, you either need godlike reflexes or good old luck to pull that off.

On console, you are left with luck.

Punishable means, that you can exploit using a certain move, by using a good counter move, that works every time. Like countering demons embrace with a double side light (warden) or double top light (orochi). Shugoki tries to grab you with hyper armor active --> double strike --> guaranteed interruption. That's a proper punish.

The move from the clip looked like luck and timing.

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 12:12 PM
Yeah of course. I can handle Shinobi with orochi and kensei, so I have to be bad, because you can't do nothing about them. Yeah. That is foqen reasonable :D And yeah, I bet every Shinobi that I defeated has to be bad. This also makes sense.

Man... I'm so sorry that you can't adapt to the fighters. But seriously, train hard and eventually you will get better. It is not that hard. But you have to be aware of character's options and be able to read them. But if you can't read your oponent after 3 months then it can be quite difficult now. Nevertheless, good luck kid!

I guess you haven't been playing for long then or haven't paid any attention to the competitive scene. Like I said, you're playing trash players - you even just gave advice to just guardbreak shinobi when he dodges which is absolutely atrocious advice unless the player you're facing is bad.


First, its PC footage. Very smooth PC footage.

Dodging and parrying is in general more easy to do on PC, than it is on console. Even on PC, you either need godlike reflexes or good old luck to pull that off.

On console, you are left with luck.

Punishable means, that you can exploit using a certain move, by using a good counter move, that works every time. Like countering demons embrace with a double side light (warden) or double top light (orochi). Shugoki tries to grab you with hyper armor active --> double strike --> guaranteed interruption. That's a proper punish.

The move from the clip looked like luck and timing.
It demonstrates that even if you dodge the kick with centurion, there's literally no way to punish it, so shinobi can just reset to neutral every time without needing to take any additional action to cover his options. This is exactly the same as Conqueror's shieldbash used to be, except that only confirmed into 12 damage and could be hit out of the start-up animation.

SnugglesIV
05-25-2017, 12:12 PM
I have a really valid question:

Can Centurion dodge-attack?

Another one:

If it happened with a Warder shoulder, a Warlord headbutt, Conqueror bash or Lawbringer shove, that attack would hit?

Centurion cannot dodge attack. Only 6 characters have a dodge attack: PK, Oro, Zerker, Nob, Valk and Kensei. When it comes to Warden, Warlord, Conq and LB punishes, they can only punish IF the Shinobi doesn't fire off an attack (the only exception is LB with shove hyper armour). Correct me if I'm wrong though.

If you don't have a dodge attack, the only way to punish double dash kick is to trade heavies and hope that you have enough health to trade "favourably." If your heavies are too slow, then you are screwed.

Ontari
05-25-2017, 12:18 PM
Omfg man.... You know that your character has legs? He can move on them. You know that positioning is essential in this game? Legs help much. You know that you have an indicator of his double dodge in form of the first dodge? If you're too slow to react, it's your fault. You know that sometimes your character goes forward into GB? (at least kensei does). You know that I don't give a damn about competitive scene, because I play the game for the entertainment? That is, how the computer games are supposed to be played?

You like to insult others when their opinion is other than yours. But your posts here show only that you are a salty kid who can't handle the character with the lowest HP pool in the game. Maybe this is the point where your ego boils and bursts, and something you can't handle.

If you keep this mindset of "I can't defeat the shinobi" you will never defeat one.

And I don't know what gives you the position to call me trash or other players trash. I've fought a ****ton of shinobis, some of them already on rep 5.

Learn. To. Read. Your. Opponent. It is hard to do with shinobi, because he has a super awesome kit with multitude of options to mixup his attacks.


And seriously... you cry about the kick, yet you call my opponents trash? Boi, good Shinobi won't need a kick to rekt your sorry arse ;)

SnugglesIV
05-25-2017, 12:31 PM
Omfg man.... You know that your character has legs? He can move on them. You know that positioning is essential in this game? Legs help much. You know that you have an indicator of his double dodge in form of the first dodge? If you're too slow to react, it's your fault. You know that sometimes your character goes forward into GB? (at least kensei does). You know that I don't give a damn about competitive scene, because I play the game for the entertainment? That is, how the computer games are supposed to be played?

You like to insult others when their opinion is other than yours. But your posts here show only that you are a salty kid who can't handle the character with the lowest HP pool in the game. Maybe this is the point where your ego boils and bursts, and something you can't handle.

If you keep this mindset of "I can't defeat the shinobi" you will never defeat one.

And I don't know what gives you the position to call me trash or other players trash. I've fought a ****ton of shinobis, some of them already on rep 5.

Learn. To. Read. Your. Opponent. It is hard to do with shinobi, because he has a super awesome kit with multitude of options to mixup his attacks.


And seriously... you cry about the kick, yet you call my opponents trash? Boi, good Shinobi won't need a kick to rekt your sorry arse ;)

1) You walk forward, the Shinobi walks backward. Remember, the Shinobi has legs too you know...
2) If you play Duels/Brawls/Eliminations, you already have some distance between you and the Shinobi. If you're a slow character, there is no way that Shinobi is going to let you get close to him unless HE wants you to come close.
3) You really underestimate the speed of his second dash. I know you can interrupt it with a GB, and even then it's really hard to react to it 100%. There's a reason why most people resort to trading heavies with the kick.
4) All character's GB will track towards a dodging player. However you have to time it correctly or it will not do this and you will simply whiff your GB, opening you up to a free kick into heavy. Again, there's a reason most people resort to trading heavies.
5) You do realise that the competitive scene IS a part of the game? Why do you think the turtle meta is so pervasive in the game, especially in duels? Forward hint, the professional scene showed that turtling was the optimal way to play the game. People like to win, and therefore learned how to turtle and applied that to their games.
6) Reputation means nothing. I've VS'd high level players and had an easy time fighting them. All reputation means is that you have played a character for X period of time. This says nothing about their skill at the character, or if they are even playing that character correctly. Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

I'm by no means a high tier player, but even I can see the folly in your post.

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 01:04 PM
Omfg man.... You know that your character has legs? He can move on them. You know that positioning is essential in this game? Legs help much. You know that you have an indicator of his double dodge in form of the first dodge? If you're too slow to react, it's your fault. You know that sometimes your character goes forward into GB? (at least kensei does). You know that I don't give a damn about competitive scene, because I play the game for the entertainment? That is, how the computer games are supposed to be played?

You like to insult others when their opinion is other than yours. But your posts here show only that you are a salty kid who can't handle the character with the lowest HP pool in the game. Maybe this is the point where your ego boils and bursts, and something you can't handle.

If you keep this mindset of "I can't defeat the shinobi" you will never defeat one.

And I don't know what gives you the position to call me trash or other players trash. I've fought a ****ton of shinobis, some of them already on rep 5.

Learn. To. Read. Your. Opponent. It is hard to do with shinobi, because he has a super awesome kit with multitude of options to mixup his attacks.


And seriously... you cry about the kick, yet you call my opponents trash? Boi, good Shinobi won't need a kick to rekt your sorry arse ;)

I'm going to spell it out for you.

You - Bad player, don't play to win, lose a lot, fight other players who don't play to win and also lose a lot. Makes balance decisions based on own anecdotal evidence of performance of other bad players. Don't understand fundamentals, like to passive-aggressively insult other players and then whine when directly insulted in response. Thinks reputation is indicative of player ability. Doesn't realise all top players have same opinion about Shinobi that doesn't align with his.

Me - Good player, 2x NA duel champion, 1x 2v2 champion, consistently finished in top 4 in numerous tournaments, still gets matched vs high profile and high ranking tournament players. Makes balance decisions on what is possible, rather than what I can personally do. Knows that guardbreaks don't work when the enemy is out of range. Understands that reacting prematurely to an enemy action gives them a 50-50 to gauge your response and punish you for that. Insults ****ty players who insinuate that everybody who doesn't have their opinion is bad, which hilariously includes people like Petemoo, Hhhhmmmm1 and Kinseymister. Hoping that when he gets home from work he'll see a friend request from you on Uplay so I can post the screenshots in this thread when you get bodied.

Understand?

Danioku
05-25-2017, 02:01 PM
I'm going to spell it out for you.

You - Bad player, don't play to win, lose a lot, fight other players who don't play to win and also lose a lot. Makes balance decisions based on own anecdotal evidence of performance of other bad players. Don't understand fundamentals, like to passive-aggressively insult other players and then whine when directly insulted in response. Thinks reputation is indicative of player ability. Doesn't realise all top players have same opinion about Shinobi that doesn't align with his.

Me - Good player, 2x NA duel champion, 1x 2v2 champion, consistently finished in top 4 in numerous tournaments, still gets matched vs high profile and high ranking tournament players. Makes balance decisions on what is possible, rather than what I can personally do. Knows that guardbreaks don't work when the enemy is out of range. Understands that reacting prematurely to an enemy action gives them a 50-50 to gauge your response and punish you for that. Insults ****ty players who insinuate that everybody who doesn't have their opinion is bad, which hilariously includes people like Petemoo, Hhhhmmmm1 and Kinseymister. Hoping that when he gets home from work he'll see a friend request from you on Uplay so I can post the screenshots in this thread when you get bodied.

Understand?

Dont even waste time to try to show the evidence to casuals, bad player or big mouth kids they will not get it anyway.... And 90% of this forum population falls into this category.

Ontari
05-25-2017, 02:04 PM
The only thing I see here is that you are a guy full of insecurities, with ego pumped up to the limit, showing off an explicit problems of our times.

The problem of the "competitive" scene of guys which abuse one game mechanic to win and satisfy their real-life losses and incapabilities in the virtual reality does not concern me. I realise that the "professional" (oh the irony...) scene is a part of this game, and I play it since the Alpha, I've seen a lot. I'm not a ******o that plays the game to fap over his dominance, I play computer games to relax and for fun. Yet I'm still paired with pros from time to time, or this hardocre fat kids which prefer the ways of the turtle.

And I see how gradually people are learning to fight the shinobi.


Yet you, mah man, full of "warriors pride" (^^) the one that stands on the mountain of being a Big Boss, are not even concerned with other's peoples actions. If a Shinobi moves as that away that you can't GB him, his kick will usually also not land (sometimes tracking of the kick is buggy and is too far, but usually when he is out of reach he won't land the kick). And sorry, but you have to GB him during the first dodge, and when you see him already in the second phase, then spacing shall do the trick.

I get that your mind is occupied with "meta" and playing like a robot for a one trick, but think outside the box sometimes, it helps not only in virtual reality but also in real reality man.


Shinobi gets his *** kicked more and more. I remember the first days, every pro player whined about his GB. Now they counter it, cries are over. Now, they are too slow on the uptake to deal with the kick. Let them cry for some more time, eventually they should learn it. Or they will cry for so long that devs will kneel and nerf it, leaving shinobi obsolete. They made characters which are FINALLY ABLE TO BREAK TURTLE META and I get why it is sad for the "competitive scene", but hey! Discuss that with other pros on your weekly afternoon tea.

Oh... I get it. No time for that when you spend your time on the computer 24/7 ^^


P.S. This fantasised elitism of a very small group of people trying to impose their rules on the bigger communities actually inspired me. I will definitely use that example in my M.A. thesis man, thanks to both of you Danioku and Aarpian :D

P.S. 2 Oh, now I saw you are an American. That explains a lot man <3

Netcode_err_404
05-25-2017, 02:10 PM
I'm going to spell it out for you.

You - Bad player, don't play to win, lose a lot, fight other players who don't play to win and also lose a lot. Makes balance decisions based on own anecdotal evidence of performance of other bad players. Don't understand fundamentals, like to passive-aggressively insult other players and then whine when directly insulted in response. Thinks reputation is indicative of player ability. Doesn't realise all top players have same opinion about Shinobi that doesn't align with his.

Me - Good player, 2x NA duel champion, 1x 2v2 champion, consistently finished in top 4 in numerous tournaments, still gets matched vs high profile and high ranking tournament players. Makes balance decisions on what is possible, rather than what I can personally do. Knows that guardbreaks don't work when the enemy is out of range. Understands that reacting prematurely to an enemy action gives them a 50-50 to gauge your response and punish you for that. Insults ****ty players who insinuate that everybody who doesn't have their opinion is bad, which hilariously includes people like Petemoo, Hhhhmmmm1 and Kinseymister. Hoping that when he gets home from work he'll see a friend request from you on Uplay so I can post the screenshots in this thread when you get bodied.

Understand?

Where did you find the willpower to actually sign up in tournaments ? I've seen a couple of finals, so boring, i would prefer to actually go to work LOL

Draghmar
05-25-2017, 02:15 PM
Dont even waste time to try to show the evidence to casuals, bad player or big mouth kids they will not get it anyway.... And 90% of this forum population falls into this category.
Oh come on. I'm casual for the most part. You're offending me here...I think... :P

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 02:26 PM
The only thing I see here is that you are a guy full of insecurities, with ego pumped up to the limit, showing off an explicit problems of our times.

The problem of the "competitive" scene of guys which abuse one game mechanic to win and satisfy their real-life losses and incapabilities in the virtual reality does not concern me. I realise that the "professional" (oh the irony...) scene is a part of this game, and I play it since the Alpha, I've seen a lot. I'm not a ******o that plays the game to fap over his dominance, I play computer games to relax and for fun. Yet I'm still paired with pros from time to time, or this hardocre fat kids which prefer the ways of the turtle.

And I see how gradually people are learning to fight the shinobi.


Yet you, mah man, full of "warriors pride" (^^) the one that stands on the mountain of being a Big Boss, are not even concerned with other's peoples actions. If a Shinobi moves as that away that you can't GB him, his kick will usually also not land (sometimes tracking of the kick is buggy and is too far, but usually when he is out of reach he won't land the kick). And sorry, but you have to GB him during the first dodge, and when you see him already in the second phase, then spacing shall do the trick.

I get that your mind is occupied with "meta" and playing like a robot for a one trick, but think outside the box sometimes, it helps not only in virtual reality but also in real reality man.


Shinobi gets his *** kicked more and more. I remember the first days, every pro player whined about his GB. Now they counter it, cries are over. Now, they are too slow on the uptake to deal with the kick. Let them cry for some more time, eventually they should learn it. Or they will cry for so long that devs will kneel and nerf it, leaving shinobi obsolete. They made characters which are FINALLY ABLE TO BREAK TURTLE META and I get why it is sad for the "competitive scene", but hey! Discuss that with other pros on your weekly afternoon tea.

Oh... I get it. No time for that when you spend your time on the computer 24/7 ^^


P.S. This fantasised elitism of a very small group of people trying to impose their rules on the bigger communities actually inspired me. I will definitely use that example in my M.A. thesis man, thanks to both of you Danioku and Aarpian :D

P.S. 2 Oh, now I saw you are an American. That explains a lot man <3

It cracks me up when people who have a sub 50% winrate in duel try to offer up advice or tell people to git gud. Your advice sucks, friend. You aren't good enough to be telling people how to play.

OokiireteHoshii
05-25-2017, 02:55 PM
Video won't load load for me.
For whoever can't see the video that's what happens: Shinobi initiates with his kick, centurion dodges it and IMMEDIATELY follows with a light attack. However the recovery is so fast that allows shinobi to still get a parry.. The real problem here is that not all the classes are able to punish the kick, even if dodged without a side attack/ bash/shove those are forced to do nothing. Argues are over.

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 03:38 PM
Where did you find the willpower to actually sign up in tournaments ? I've seen a couple of finals, so boring, i would prefer to actually go to work LOL

I loved the game early on. I don't sign up anymore, haven't since before conq nerfs. Defence meta is too boring.

And for the record, Ontari, I'm English.

AzureSky.
05-25-2017, 03:46 PM
Cant punish it as a raider with a specific move to this things (dodge light and dodge GB) he just recover too fast and can do what he wants.

Experienced shinobis can bluff a kick and then when you dodge they gb you for a free hit, its broken, no use arguing about it.

The solution is to add a 200 or 300 ms recovery time after he miss the kick (like valk with the sweep) and removing the hyper armor, he has 2 dashes to DODGE enemy attacks and then counter attack with the kick, its not the other way around, if you get hit in 2 dodge instances you deserve to lose.

Tirik22x
05-25-2017, 03:53 PM
Like I said the video won't load for me, but both kicks are easily punished by anyone who has a dodge Light/Heavy attack. As a Beserker main I have regularly dodged and smacked both classes whenever they go for their kick.


So despite the sarcasm of the thread title they ARE easy to punish.

Completely agree... I don't really see the problem. Other than peeps need to L2p.

OokiireteHoshii
05-25-2017, 04:05 PM
Completely agree... I don't really see the problem. Other than peeps need to L2p.
/facepalm

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 04:08 PM
Posted this in another thread about the dbl dash kick:

Shinobi kick isn't a problem at all. You can punish the dbl dash in most situations and GB or hit the shinobi before the kick even comes out. Or at least when you trade with the kick it's always in your favor due to the large health difference. You trade the kick with a light for 15 damage lets say and his heavy does 25. 10 damage difference seems fair in most cases since he has 2 bars less health than many heroes. If he were to trade kicks with lights over and over he would likely lose. That's only if you trade with a light, I've noticed bushi can trade with zone which is about half shinobi's health, PK, rochi and warden I know for sure have reliable zone punishes on dbl dash as well so yeah I think people need to stop crying and focus efforts on centurions 4v4 bs potential. I imagine soon enough shinobi will end up useless in 1v1 when people learn it isn't terribly hard to just trade with the kick/gb mixup and heavily punish the squishy shinobi.

Just to make sure you understand as well, any attack used on reaction to punish the dbl dash will either hit shinobi before the kick comes out or trade with the kick or beat the GB. I am not seeing how kick even as it is currently, is even in shinobi's favor at the moment against anyone who knows what they are doing. Good players are learning to trade with it and any trade is not in shinboi's favor. The only one that comes close to ok is the light trade with kick. Every other situation is a huge disadvantage for shinobi. Not saying it's already useless against skilled players just yet but time will tell. Don't think we'll be seeing any shinobi's winning tournaments any time soon.

I would probably agree it does too much stam damage but nothing else is wrong with it. It's not like he can react to you dashing and GB instead of kick, it's a guess on his part as well. Changing anything about the kick aside from the stamina damage will turn it into a useless tool. Removing its armor would make any trade with kick leave shinobi at a HUGE disadvantage thx to his low health, making it slower or more punishable will also destroy it as it isn't hard to dodge already and if he risks a punish on whiff then again it is just never in shinobi's favor to ever use kick. Kick lands he gets 25 damage sure, but if it was avoided and punishable he loses 30+ health depending on hero and if wall is nearby. He already has less health so the risk vs reward would make kick entirely not worth it unless you are just reacting to punish something with it. Then we are back to good ol defensive For Honor where no one attacks until they can react to punish their opponent.

I could see maybe changing it so that other unblockable shoves would trade with it so that both parties are staggered by their opponents shoves and neither can follow up. But anything else and they better put his health up to 4 1/2 bars and make his guard like the other assassins.

In teams I can see how it's frustrating, but is it really more frustrating than all the other unblockables spam? Lets be real here in this situation centurion is far far worse.

Another note, the kick itself is fast yes. But the dbl dash lead up to kick is not and overall makes this move not very fast and very telegraphed and since you can be hit during the dbl dash before the kick even comes out it can be very unsafe.

+1 indeed, just its way easier to come here and heal frustration writing nonsense at forum, instead going to training room, learn and apply, well explained indeed m8, nice post

Vingrask
05-25-2017, 04:08 PM
Centurion cannot dodge attack. Only 6 characters have a dodge attack: PK, Oro, Zerker, Nob, Valk and Kensei. When it comes to Warden, Warlord, Conq and LB punishes, they can only punish IF the Shinobi doesn't fire off an attack (the only exception is LB with shove hyper armour). Correct me if I'm wrong though.

If you don't have a dodge attack, the only way to punish double dash kick is to trade heavies and hope that you have enough health to trade "favourably." If your heavies are too slow, then you are screwed.

You understand it wrong. I'm saying "can the Centurion, or any other hero without a dodge attack, dodge and light a Warden, Warlord, Conqueror or LB?". Because a dodge-attack is to do exactly this, and if anyone could dodge and attack, play assassins is just a bad decision. I bet they can't, since dodge attack is a specific move for this specific situations.

Dodge a Shinobi kick isn't hard, but there is the guessing game like a lot of guessing game the For Honor have. Now dodge and attack is something different. The "video" show a Centurion trying dodge attack, when he doesn't have this move. If a Centurion try dodge attack any hero he will fail and can be parried like happened in the "video". This topic is pure nonsense.

Besides, a Centurion crying?
Man, I'm so tired of fight Centurions and run OOS half the round (I'm really, really sick of this!!) and the other half being punished by 1 mistake or scared to do 1 mistake.

Danioku
05-25-2017, 04:14 PM
Completely agree... I don't really see the problem. Other than peeps need to L2p.

No wonder you dont see the problem when you are a noob

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 04:28 PM
No wonder you dont see the problem when you are a noob

Seriously because of you whiners who are 24/7 at forum complaining instead of training at practice room, to learn, apply and enjoy we will make petition to create "FOR HONOR SCHOOL" where everything will be explained to you step by step and where you can learn and enjoy the game. I am serious and not sarcastic at all. You can add me friend and i will be glad to take some of my time to help you.

Cheers!

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 04:41 PM
Seriously because of you whiners who are 24/7 at forum complaining instead of training at practice room, to learn, apply and enjoy we will make petition to create "FOR HONOR SCHOOL" where everything will be explained to you step by step and where you can learn and enjoy the game. I am serious and not sarcastic at all. You can add me friend and i will be glad to take some of my time to help you.

Cheers!

Lol dude you have a 34.50% win rate in duels stop preaching to people about learning to play.

Danioku
05-25-2017, 04:44 PM
Seriously because of you whiners who are 24/7 at forum complaining instead of training at practice room, to learn, apply and enjoy we will make petition to create "FOR HONOR SCHOOL" where everything will be explained to you step by step and where you can learn and enjoy the game. I am serious and not sarcastic at all. You can add me friend and i will be glad to take some of my time to help you.

Cheers!

NotLikeThis

Ontari
05-25-2017, 04:45 PM
Guys... don't you see it's even worse? The fact that such a noob doesn't cry like you and don't have problems like you?

You guys would be right if matchmaking worked properly, but everyone knows it doesn't, and usually it searches "all player levels", the thing you also cried about long ago ;)

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 04:49 PM
Guys... don't you see it's even worse? The fact that such a noob doesn't cry like you and don't have problems like you?

You guys would be right if matchmaking worked properly, but everyone knows it doesn't, and usually it searches "all player levels", the thing you also cried about long ago ;)

Your playing s hit players dude that's just a fact. The advice you give is garbage and doesn't work on anyone with half a brain. If you are so confident take aarpian up on his offer and show him how easy it is then upload the matches here. Nothing would make me happier than if you were right but you aren't

OokiireteHoshii
05-25-2017, 05:01 PM
Seriously because of you whiners who are 24/7 at forum complaining instead of training at practice room, to learn, apply and enjoy we will make petition to create "FOR HONOR SCHOOL" where everything will be explained to you step by step and where you can learn and enjoy the game. I am serious and not sarcastic at all. You can add me friend and i will be glad to take some of my time to help you.

Cheers!
https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/CV_M4st3R_
Just look at this page before even considering to give a reply at this kid.

Aarpian
05-25-2017, 06:08 PM
Guys... don't you see it's even worse? The fact that such a noob doesn't cry like you and don't have problems like you?

You guys would be right if matchmaking worked properly, but everyone knows it doesn't, and usually it searches "all player levels", the thing you also cried about long ago ;)

Just saw you ragequit a game when you noticed I was in it. My sides dude.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 06:16 PM
Just saw you ragequit a game when you noticed I was in it. My sides dude.

Ahahhhahahhhahhaahhaha

Knight_Gregor
05-25-2017, 06:17 PM
It's an overpowered tool for a low health low risk character who can engage from completely out of range of the entire roster with an armored shove that interrupts anything that isn't a hyper-armoured shugoki. Played badly, shinobi is high risk. Played well, he's almost impossible to kill solely because of the safety and power of kick, which allows you to engage from out of range and immediately disengage back out of range with the backflip (which, again, is armoured, and can't be punished by most characters because it ****s with tracking. In fact trying to punish and failing gives the shinobi a free ranged GB). What's even more disgusting about it is it's a catch-all perfectly safe parry mechanic that can be used in response to anything that isn't a guardbreak.


So it's OK for him to be completely untouchable by half the roster (Orochi, Berserker, Raider, Nobushi, Valk and possibly conq are the only ones with side dodge attacks that can connect in time) because the other half can 50-50 him (with a wrong guess resulting in them eating more damage than the shinobi)? And in what world is the shinobi double-dashing within guardbreak range? That's just bad play from the Shinobi, and you can punish bad play on anybody.



See above. PK and Roach would both die before the shinobi if they trade hits with his kick>heavy. Warden would technically have 10hp left but Shinobi can just retreat to regen the last bar. Nobushi might genuinely be a decent counter but that's hardly indicative of the move being balanced.


Armour does not absorb shove - not on Lawbringer, not on Berserker, not on Warlord, not on Kensei, not on Centurion, not on Warden, not in Revenge. The ONLY other instance of armour beating out shove is Shugoki's passive.
If it didn't have armour, it would mean you could actually do something about the kick without needing to have a 400ms attack to trade with it on reaction, but it would still require a read for the defending party, instead of a dodge to neutral on a reaction - a much healthier and more interesting mechanic from a gameplay perspective. If you correctly guess your opponent's next move, you should be rewarded for it. I understand the need for Shinobi to have an edge in 50-50 scenarios because of his HP, but right now he has an overwhelming advantage in any scenario involving the kick. It's even more overpowered than old conq shieldbash was.


People want the entire toolkits to be useful, not spammable unblockables that crowd out all other options. Kick spam, shieldbash spam, shoulderbash spam - spam is all boring. Having ONE good option is part of the reason why people left this game in droves.

Preach!

OokiireteHoshii
05-25-2017, 06:23 PM
I just finished watching today's warrior's den and the kick it's gonna stay like this because according to roman:
"It's a powerful tool, it's the best tool shinobi has, we like it soooo much, it's again a powerful tool, get used to it, did i mention it's a powerful tool? oh and we still have not enough feedback about certain characters that gets NOTHING from dodging succesfully this mother****ing kick".
So, if you're not one of the 7 char that can sidestep attack then your only option is to trade.
Good Fight!
Sorry!
WoW!
WoW!
WoW!
Thanks!

Knight_Gregor
05-25-2017, 06:27 PM
I just finished watching today's warrior's den and the kick it's gonna stay like this because according to roman:
"It's a powerful tool, it's the best tool shinobi has, we like it soooo much, it's again a powerful tool, get used to it, did i mention it's a powerful tool? oh and we still have not enough feedback about certain characters that gets NOTHING from dodging succesfully this mother****ing kick".
So, if you're not one of the 7 char that can sidestep attack then your only option is to trade.
Good Fight!
Sorry!
WoW!
WoW!
WoW!
Thanks!

You wouldn't happen to have a timestamp on this quote would you? I'd like to see it and try to infer if it is sarcasm...

OokiireteHoshii
05-25-2017, 06:46 PM
You wouldn't happen to have a timestamp on this quote would you? I'd like to see it and try to infer if it is sarcasm...
I think it's near the end. However the majority of this dev stream was just memes and guess what? they showed every single gif/video from the same subreddit BUT the one that i posted in this thread...they wouldn't have laughed as much trust me.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 08:03 PM
I think it's near the end. However the majority of this dev stream was just memes and guess what? they showed every single gif/video from the same subreddit BUT the one that i posted in this thread...they wouldn't have laughed as much trust me.

Did you think about leaving normal, not frustrating people alone and maybe change the place where you heal your frustration, i mean everything can be fixed with hard work even middle pants size etc, you should give it a shot but i don't think you would, you know normal people who have life and enjoy it who breath with full lungs and don't have complexes don't like toxic person. Its like plague and can be easily transfered to other person who cant and don't know how to fight it....And one more thing, my K/D is 1.73, thats what show my profile in the game, i don't know where u find that and i don't even care, because i am immune to your kind and know it very well, have a nice day!

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 08:11 PM
Did you think about leaving normal, not frustrating people alone and maybe change the place where you heal your frustration, i mean everything can be fixed with hard work even pants size etc you should give it a shot but i don't think you would, you know normal people who have life and enjoy it who breath with full lungs and don't have complexes don't like toxic person. Its like plague and can be easily transfered to other person who cant and don't know how to fight it....And one more thing, my K/D is 1.73, thats what show my profile in the game, i don't know where u find that and i don't even care, because i am immune to your kind and know it very well, have a nice day!

Dude, you don't know how to fight. Stop trying to take the path of git gud. People that are many times greater than you at this game recognize that a 400ms unblockable 50/50 that drains large chunks of stamina, has a guaranteed heavy follow, hyper armor, and low recovery frames is a problem. It's time you realize that your experiences with terrible players doesn't mean this attack and by extension shinobi are incredibly powerful. Doesn't matter what your kd, look at your whack a$$ winrate. You don't know what you are talking about and if you think you do prove it and show us how you fight an experienced shin.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 08:13 PM
Dude, you don't know how to fight. Stop trying to take the path of git gud. People that are many times greater than you at this game recognize that a 400ms unblockable 50/50 that drains large chunks of stamina, has a guaranteed heavy follow, hyper armor, and low recovery frames is a problem. It's time you realize that your experiences with terrible players doesn't mean this attack and by extension shinobi are incredibly powerful. Doesn't matter what your kd, look at your whack a$$ winrate. You don't know what you are talking about and if you think you do prove it and show us how you fight an experienced shin.

Hmm this is miss understanding obviously i never tried at any point to prove that shinobi should be nerfed or something? Or that i am super player, i even wrote that down...

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 08:19 PM
Hmm this is miss understanding obviously i never tried at any point to prove that shinobi should be nerfed or something? Or that i am super player, i even wrote that down...

You are telling people they need to L2P while simultaneously having quite possibly the worst dueling record I've seen thus far and the rest of the modes you play are far from great as well sub 50 or just barely over it. You don't know what you are talking about, friend.

Gray360UK
05-25-2017, 08:20 PM
You wouldn't happen to have a timestamp on this quote would you? I'd like to see it and try to infer if it is sarcasm...

Roman didn't say anything like what that guy quoted, he is just being an arse. Roman joked that the kick was fine, then immediately followed that up by saying that it was powerful, but too powerful ... they are not sure yet, and they are looking at the data carefully and keeping an eye on it. They want to see what happens as players learn to fight against the Shinobi, and what happens as Shinobi players learn the character more. This was in response to a chat stream question, and Roman ended by saying 'point taken'.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 08:42 PM
You are telling people they need to L2P while simultaneously having quite possibly the worst dueling record I've seen thus far and the rest of the modes you play are far from great as well sub 50 or just barely over it. You don't know what you are talking about, friend.

First of all my friend you are mixing frogs with stones, if u want you can read this post http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1675747-Make-for-honor-school where its clear that i consider my self average player, or even bad, frankly i dont give a **** about that, i am here just to have fun, and my intetntion was to have less whining post and to share knowledge.
Second of all, stop running at every post i made and make some silly comments cause you make your self look funny ( i don't want to use some other words), dont run in front of your horse you can get run over.
And most important i wish you a nice day, go do something that you like to do, like whatever, because there is too much rage in you that should go out.

BTW guy who you try to justify all the time is Centurion lover who is afraid that his probably only hero that he can play will be nerfed, thats easy to understand from his avatar.

Cheers!

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 08:52 PM
First of all my friend you are mixing frogs with stones, if u want you can read this post http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1675747-Make-for-honor-school where its clear that i consider my self average player, or even bad, frankly i dont give a **** about that, i am here just to have fun.
Second of all, stop running at every post i made and make some silly comments cause you make your self look funny ( i don't want to use some other words), dont run in front of your horse you can get run over.
And most important i wish you a nice day, go do something that you like to do, like whatever, because there is too much rage in you that should go out.

BTW guy who you try to justify all the time is Centurion lover who is afraid that his probably only hero that he can play will be nerfed, thats easy to understand from his avatar.

Cheers!

Don't know what you are talking about or who, I don't really care either. You got on your high horse and started calling people out for bringing up how broken this kick is. You are in a round about way saying "git gud" while being utter crap at this game and that's something I don't really dig on. If you are going to preach about getting good then you better be good yourself.

"Seriously because of you whiners who are 24/7 at forum complaining instead of training at practice room, to learn, apply and enjoy we will make petition to create "FOR HONOR SCHOOL" where everything will be explained to you step by step and where you can learn and enjoy the game. I am serious and not sarcastic at all. You can add me friend and i will be glad to take some of my time to help you."

I am doing something I enjoy. I like talking about for honor and playing it.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 09:01 PM
Don't know what you are talking about or who, I don't really care either. You got on your high horse and started calling people out for bringing up how broken this kick is. You are in a round about way saying "git gud" while being utter crap at this game and that's something I don't really dig on. If you are going to preach about getting good then you better be good yourself.

"Seriously because of you whiners who are 24/7 at forum complaining instead of training at practice room, to learn, apply and enjoy we will make petition to create "FOR HONOR SCHOOL" where everything will be explained to you step by step and where you can learn and enjoy the game. I am serious and not sarcastic at all. You can add me friend and i will be glad to take some of my time to help you."

I am doing something I enjoy. I like talking about for honor and playing it.

Well it looks like you decide to insult me while i didn't even if i could , nvm thats obvious difference between you and me, show me where exactly i did this "started calling people out for bringing up how broken this kick is" with a quote? Thank you!

Tirik22x
05-25-2017, 09:02 PM
No wonder you dont see the problem when you are a noob

Bc I have no problem beating the class that clearly destroys you, I'm a noob.

Got it.

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 09:03 PM
Well it looks like you decide to insult me while i didn't even if i could , nvm, show me where exactly i did this "started calling people out for bringing up how broken this kick is" with a quote?

I just did... it was the quote of you in the middle of my last post.

Duuklah
05-25-2017, 09:06 PM
You are telling people they need to L2P while simultaneously having quite possibly the worst dueling record I've seen thus far and the rest of the modes you play are far from great as well sub 50 or just barely over it. You don't know what you are talking about, friend.

How are you seeing his stats?

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 09:06 PM
Bc I have no problem beating the class that clearly destroys you, I'm a noob.

Got it.

He's saying you are a noob because your playing trash shins that don't know how to play so that's why you think they are easy. The majority of them are weeb trash but the demo a character attracts doesn't affect where they fall in the power dynamic of a game. He's easily in the top 5 and debatable if he's dethroned Warlord.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 09:07 PM
I just did... it was the quote of you in the middle of my last post.

Either i am blind or i DONT see word "kick" there???? And dont try to turn another person at me you will fail to do that....

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 09:08 PM
Either i am blind or i DONT see word "kick" there????

Nope not blind but you are stupid because the topic of the thread is the kick so the context of this quote was clearly with regards to that. No more backy pedally friend

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 09:11 PM
How are you seeing his stats?

https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/CV_M4st3R_

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-25-2017, 09:14 PM
Nice after you are thrown to dust with arguments, more insults and more toxicity, you are just not worth any more of my time....

Cheers!

Antonioj26
05-25-2017, 09:15 PM
Nice after you are thrown to dust with arguments, more insults and more toxicity, you are just not worth any more of my time....

Cheers!

Cheers!

Danioku
05-25-2017, 09:35 PM
Bc I have no problem beating the class that clearly destroys you, I'm a noob.

Got it.

nah, i win a lot vs Shinobi but only cause most of them are bad/average players and they make a lot of mistakes, i still lose some even vs these kind or players.

At same skill level i have literally 0 chances to win vs Shinobi for the reasons explained above that you dont see.

Tirik22x
05-25-2017, 10:34 PM
nah, i win a lot vs Shinobi but only cause most of them are bad/average players and they make a lot of mistakes, i still lose some even vs these kind or players.

At same skill level i have literally 0 chances to win vs Shinobi for the reasons explained above that you dont see.

Idk... I just know I played duels for ab 6 hours today, and only lost 1 overall to a Shinobi.

SnugglesIV
05-26-2017, 05:12 AM
tfw the devs say they want to nerf Centurion kick, but they are still on the fence about Shinobi's kick. FeelsCenturionMan

Also, I love how Ontari never responded to my seven point rebuttal to his "advice." It's almost like he's completely wrong and just wants to brag about how he's doing a Masters. =,)

Ontari
05-26-2017, 10:39 AM
Hi again :D

@Snuggles, yeah, because I've nightshifts, don't have access to the computer at work, I had to search a bit for this thread today among these spam bots.
I'm not braging, I'm stating the fact that this community is truly inspiring and just fits perfectly to my subject. Also, I don't ever remember yours comprehensive study, this discussion already strayed away from the subject when the peeps afraid of breaking the turtle meta started crying and insulting others :D

@Aarpian, I don't know why are you lying, but I get it that lies help when you are out of factual arguments. I've invited you to friends yesterday, keen to play with you, yet after few dominions i quit to do my ****. Yet you didn't say anything ya cocky master, and now you are telling such ridiculous things. Feed your ego boi, but look out not to slip into imaginary.


As to any Shinobi nerfing, so that the small percentage of For Honor Pro Uber Tournament Winning will be satisfied in their tested 2 ways to kill an oponent, I still think that it will render him obsolete. He and centurion are the only characters which are able to break the turtles, it is an innovation, a process of fighting with the meta. Devs are talking about it for some time from what I've heard from warriors den. It can be adjusted to unspam it, by increasing stamina cost, or whatever the developers have in mind, but destroying this ability is just plain stupid. It's not moving on, and every game evolves with time. But criers gonna cry, cause they K/D ratio took a 0.05 numbers hit, and they can't adapt to it as swiftly as some do. This is seriously hillarious. I'm not a For Honor god or whatever, my K/D is average shizzit, but I am in this game from the very beginning so I've just seen a lot of different players, playstyles and levels of skill. Now I also see players which deal with shinobi or centurion quite without problems. Yet you, oh almighty For Honor professionals, obviously know better about everything. Your matchmaking works perfectly, only ascribing you the players on your level. Truly you are a miracle of this game, wiith flawless matchmaking and functioning. The sad fact is, that others do not have as much luck as you, and poor matchmaking is a known feature of this game, and it sometimes does incredibily bizzare things. So it is not so hard for a mediocre player to be paired with skilled ones.

But keep on sitting in your exclusive circle, thinking that this game is only for you.

slasht14
05-26-2017, 10:52 AM
Hi again :D

@Snuggles, yeah, because I've nightshifts, don't have access to the computer at work, I had to search a bit for this thread today among these spam bots.
I'm not braging, I'm stating the fact that this community is truly inspiring and just fits perfectly to my subject. Also, I don't ever remember yours comprehensive study, this discussion already strayed away from the subject when the peeps afraid of breaking the turtle meta started crying and insulting others :D

@Aarpian, I don't know why are you lying, but I get it that lies help when you are out of factual arguments. I've invited you to friends yesterday, keen to play with you, yet after few dominions i quit to do my ****. Yet you didn't say anything ya cocky master, and now you are telling such ridiculous things. Feed your ego boi, but look out not to slip into imaginary.


As to any Shinobi nerfing, so that the small percentage of For Honor Pro Uber Tournament Winning will be satisfied in their tested 2 ways to kill an oponent, I still think that it will render him obsolete. He and centurion are the only characters which are able to break the turtles, it is an innovation, a process of fighting with the meta. Devs are talking about it for some time from what I've heard from warriors den. It can be adjusted to unspam it, by increasing stamina cost, or whatever the developers have in mind, but destroying this ability is just plain stupid. It's not moving on, and every game evolves with time. But criers gonna cry, cause they K/D ratio took a 0.05 numbers hit, and they can't adapt to it as swiftly as some do. This is seriously hillarious. I'm not a For Honor god or whatever, my K/D is average shizzit, but I am in this game from the very beginning so I've just seen a lot of different players, playstyles and levels of skill. Now I also see players which deal with shinobi or centurion quite without problems. Yet you, oh almighty For Honor professionals, obviously know better about everything. Your matchmaking works perfectly, only ascribing you the players on your level. Truly you are a miracle of this game, wiith flawless matchmaking and functioning. The sad fact is, that others do not have as much luck as you, and poor matchmaking is a known feature of this game, and it sometimes does incredibily bizzare things. So it is not so hard for a mediocre player to be paired with skilled ones.

But keep on sitting in your exclusive circle, thinking that this game is only for you.
Hmmm smells like a Naruto-ninja fanboy.My opinion? delete shinoobi .he doesnt belong in this game. if you want teleports and naruto like ninjas go play ninja storms

Ontari
05-26-2017, 10:54 AM
Yeah slasht...14. This is a valiable opinion. Thanks for enriching this already fruitful discussion.

slasht14
05-26-2017, 10:59 AM
And i thank Ubi for releasing shinobi.In the next season i hope they release one of the Hobbits warrior.I say its a good idea.....

ELDRIX_
05-26-2017, 11:03 AM
is there actually anyone who can react to to the kick (seeing the orange color and reacting to it) or just gamble if it's coming or not?
bc i practiced dodging the kicks with a friend (told him to smts gb and light attack)
but i always had to gamble whether the kick is coming or not

it's not possible for me to react to the orange color

ELDRIX_
05-26-2017, 11:04 AM
And i thank Ubi for releasing shinobi.In the next season i hope they release one of the Hobbits warrior.I say its a good idea.....

this game needs a black mage

slasht14
05-26-2017, 11:05 AM
is there actually anyone who can react to to the kick (seeing the orange color and reacting to it) or just gamble if it's coming or not?
bc i practiced dodging the kicks with a friend (told him to smts gb and light attack)
but i always had to gamble whether the kick is coming or not

it's not possible for me to react to the orange color

I main lb and i can react and dodge the kick but i cant punish it no matter what

ELDRIX_
05-26-2017, 11:07 AM
I main lb and i can react and dodge the kick but i cant punish it no matter what

damn too bad i don't have these reflexes FeelsBadMan

Lyskir
05-26-2017, 11:09 AM
this game needs a black mage

i want a demonhunter pls :)

ELDRIX_
05-26-2017, 11:11 AM
when i saw the shinobi trailer and saw him vanishing i thought it was just there to look cool ..........yea

Danioku
05-26-2017, 11:34 AM
I main lb and i can react and dodge the kick but i cant punish it no matter what

What can you do if he keeps just spamming kicks as LB ?

Y_Shrewditch
05-26-2017, 12:09 PM
He and centurion are the only characters which are able to break the turtles, it is an innovation, a process of fighting with the meta. Devs are talking about it for some time from what I've heard from warriors den. It can be adjusted to unspam it, by increasing stamina cost, or whatever the developers have in mind, but destroying this ability is just plain stupid

I'm really not trying to add more oil to the flames here, but it seems to me the main issue discussed here is how Shinobi's range and kick enforces the turtle game on his opponent, which is rather counter-intuitive to the idea of opening up the defensive meta.

And then after all the complaints of PK's lightspam and the subsequent nerf to it, they give the Shin even faster light attacks. Wasn't there an issue with lag as well which made it impossible to react to the PK's lights? So what would that mean to the faster lights of the Shinobi?

Point I'm trying to make, and I love the idea of the Shinobi even though I'm one of the 'bad players' with him, he's got moves that OVERcompensate for his weaknesses. A little tweaking seems to be in order, imho.

Arkhos1988
05-26-2017, 12:11 PM
Usuall problem, the recover times are either to fast or to long depending on who you play with and against. Ubi**** normalday

slasht14
05-26-2017, 12:41 PM
What can you do if he keeps just spamming kicks as LB ?

Alt+F4

Danioku
05-26-2017, 01:38 PM
Alt+F4

oh i see Alt+f4 tech so op

Teh1one
05-26-2017, 03:27 PM
maybe raider is actually a shinobi killer?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNH4XlmefJnUd9Yw1BvAmFLa8F6Tji6 QmVUhEJZ9teBzDzi9im_g

Netcode_err_404
05-26-2017, 03:30 PM
What can you do if he keeps just spamming kicks as LB ?



Pony emote spam and THEN alt + f4

That_guy44
05-26-2017, 04:20 PM
I'm really not trying to add more oil to the flames here, but it seems to me the main issue discussed here is how Shinobi's range and kick enforces the turtle game on his opponent, which is rather counter-intuitive to the idea of opening up the defensive meta.

And then after all the complaints of PK's lightspam and the subsequent nerf to it, they give the Shin even faster light attacks. Wasn't there an issue with lag as well which made it impossible to react to the PK's lights? So what would that mean to the faster lights of the Shinobi?

Point I'm trying to make, and I love the idea of the Shinobi even though I'm one of the 'bad players' with him, he's got moves that OVERcompensate for his weaknesses. A little tweaking seems to be in order, imho.

It's so annoying to try to chase down a shinobi. I have no idea why they would build a character with this much range to a fighting game. To make it worse, he's fast as ****. I could see him winning a tournament. I haven't even seen mix ups with him yet so that's kinda scary. Some cast members have no option but to wait for shinobi to initate contact. How does that work against the turtle meta? Its like, I can try this risky long range attack and expose myself or wait and try to react to his teleport game.

Danioku
05-26-2017, 04:52 PM
I can try this risky long range attack and expose myself or wait and try to react to his teleport game.


You cant really do anything cause, whatever you do (light/heavy attack or any other move) he can dodge kick on reaction and you CANT dodge it cause the timeframe is so little that you are still in recovery.

All you can do is stand still and wait his little to not punishable mixup until you guess wrong and you take damage.

Vingrask
05-26-2017, 04:53 PM
It's so annoying to try to chase down a shinobi. I have no idea why they would build a character with this much range to a fighting game. To make it worse, he's fast as ****. I could see him winning a tournament. I haven't even seen mix ups with him yet so that's kinda scary. Some cast members have no option but to wait for shinobi to initate contact. How does that work against the turtle meta? Its like, I can try this risky long range attack and expose myself or wait and try to react to his teleport game.

Feint. Shinobi is a counter attacker so you force it. Every Shinobi know they can't be hit, and this is a great part of the mind game during a fight.

I'm using Shinobi (Rep15 Berserker, almost 2k Duels) and he has limitations. Every move Shinobi has is risky, where facing a competent enemy we need to really take care. Against a full turtle, my only option is try force mistakes, because I can't throw nothing. My lights are parried every fight, so I can't rely on that like you all say. My kick can be dodged, my light finisher can be blocked/parried after a dodge and my heavy finisher will for sure be parried.

I started to learn where to feint with Shinobi, because I'm tired of try mixups and be hard punished. At the end, everything circle around mind games for both sides, but Shinobi and Centurion can do something almost no hero can: throw people off the comfort zone. Facing a full turtle I still have tools to try, different of my Berserker which need a lot, but a lot of work to open a defense. For the first time I understand why people play Warden, Lawbringer, Valkyrie and Warlord.

I don't feel hopeless playing Shinobi because I know I can force the enemy guess, I can play with their minds, like they do with me since my first level with Berserker. I still lose, my opponents are good enough to punish me and force my mistakes, but I lose feeling I could have did something different. A good portion of losses with Berserker I feel nothing more could be done.

For me, Ubi could remove the stamina drain of both new heroes and just it. Maybe reduce just a little the Centurion damage after a full combo. Nothing else is needed. Bad players always cry over everything since I started play video games.

Try Shinobi and Centurion for yourselves. Sadly you can't do it against players without buy, and nothing can guaranteed you will face a decent player instead a bad one.
But you will know when you fight someone who knows how to play. Then back here and say again if Shinobi is overpower.

Y_Shrewditch
05-26-2017, 07:14 PM
Feint. Shinobi is a counter attacker so you force it. Every Shinobi know they can't be hit, and this is a great part of the mind game during a fight.

But that's the thing, isn't it? By the time I'm done cancelling my attack, I've already eaten a foot to the face. Even if I manage to squeeze in a dodge, it's the same 50/50ish in favor of the Shinobi.



. My lights are parried every fight, so I can't rely on that like you all say. My kick can be dodged, my light finisher can be blocked/parried after a dodge and my heavy finisher will for sure be parried.


If they can parry all Shinobi's light attacks, than they are Gods and my hat's off to them. For us mere mortals (and those with lower pingtimes), especially for those with slower guardchanges/reflexes, it's an almost impossible task.

I think the issue is not so much that the kick can't be dodged, because it can, but that it is so hard to get a punish in for it that doesn't rely on the Shinobi messing up after the whiff.

For me, and it's just an opinion, that's my main gripe with him (and why I am so bad with him); he's only vulnerable when he makes a mistake, and great players don't make many mistakes. I've seen a good deal of footage of fights, and the theme is that the Shinobi is the aggressor, his opponent turtles and if the Shinobi doesn't mess up too bad, he wins.

That feels too one-sided to me, and doesn't seem to do much to ease the defensive meta at all.

Again, just my 2cents worth, your mileage may vary.

WFL_M4sT3R_
05-26-2017, 09:35 PM
I have an idea, how about we throw Shinobi to the 9th circle of HELL, erase him completely and wipe out from the game, so turtle meta festival can move on??? Please support me cause i am so much about waiting to block with my precious hero and to strike after that my heavy kick that i like sooo much and like that 24/7, please, please, please????


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovATXnXTso

Lyskir
05-26-2017, 09:44 PM
I have an idea, how about we throw Shinobi to the 9th circle of HELL, erase him completely and wipe out from the game, so turtle meta festival can move on??? Please support me cause i am so much about waiting to block with my precious hero and to strike after that my heavy kick that i like sooo much and like that 24/7, please, please, please????


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovATXnXTso


if only shinobi can handle the turtle meta its fcking bad balancing in my opinion and not very fair against heroes with no unblockable spam ****, not everyone wants to play a naruto hero to be successful against tryhard turtles

Netcode_err_404
05-26-2017, 09:49 PM
if only shinobi can handle the turtle meta its fcking bad balancing in my opinion and not very fair against heroes with no unblockable spam ****, not everyone wants to play a naruto hero to be successful against tryhard turtles

amen

DrExtrem
05-26-2017, 10:14 PM
This game is simply not balanced. Period.

Kitsunenosenshi
05-26-2017, 10:43 PM
Posted this in another thread about the dbl dash kick:

Shinobi kick isn't a problem at all. You can punish the dbl dash in most situations and GB or hit the shinobi before the kick even comes out. Or at least when you trade with the kick it's always in your favor due to the large health difference. You trade the kick with a light for 15 damage lets say and his heavy does 25. 10 damage difference seems fair in most cases since he has 2 bars less health than many heroes. If he were to trade kicks with lights over and over he would likely lose. That's only if you trade with a light, I've noticed bushi can trade with zone which is about half shinobi's health, PK, rochi and warden I know for sure have reliable zone punishes on dbl dash as well so yeah I think people need to stop crying and focus efforts on centurions 4v4 bs potential. I imagine soon enough shinobi will end up useless in 1v1 when people learn it isn't terribly hard to just trade with the kick/gb mixup and heavily punish the squishy shinobi.

Just to make sure you understand as well, any attack used on reaction to punish the dbl dash will either hit shinobi before the kick comes out or trade with the kick or beat the GB. I am not seeing how kick even as it is currently, is even in shinobi's favor at the moment against anyone who knows what they are doing. Good players are learning to trade with it and any trade is not in shinboi's favor. The only one that comes close to ok is the light trade with kick. Every other situation is a huge disadvantage for shinobi. Not saying it's already useless against skilled players just yet but time will tell. Don't think we'll be seeing any shinobi's winning tournaments any time soon.

I would probably agree it does too much stam damage but nothing else is wrong with it. It's not like he can react to you dashing and GB instead of kick, it's a guess on his part as well. Changing anything about the kick aside from the stamina damage will turn it into a useless tool. Removing its armor would make any trade with kick leave shinobi at a HUGE disadvantage thx to his low health, making it slower or more punishable will also destroy it as it isn't hard to dodge already and if he risks a punish on whiff then again it is just never in shinobi's favor to ever use kick. Kick lands he gets 25 damage sure, but if it was avoided and punishable he loses 30+ health depending on hero and if wall is nearby. He already has less health so the risk vs reward would make kick entirely not worth it unless you are just reacting to punish something with it. Then we are back to good ol defensive For Honor where no one attacks until they can react to punish their opponent.

I could see maybe changing it so that other unblockable shoves would trade with it so that both parties are staggered by their opponents shoves and neither can follow up. But anything else and they better put his health up to 4 1/2 bars and make his guard like the other assassins.

In teams I can see how it's frustrating, but is it really more frustrating than all the other unblockables spam? Lets be real here in this situation centurion is far far worse.

Another note, the kick itself is fast yes. But the dbl dash lead up to kick is not and overall makes this move not very fast and very telegraphed and since you can be hit during the dbl dash before the kick even comes out it can be very unsafe.

Centurions have one of the faster heavy atttacks, and the shinobi was still able to parry it. Lets say a Lawbringer does this same move. His LIGHT is about as fast as the centurions heavy, maybe slower. How then are you supposed to do damage against a shinobi when you cant punish any of their moves and almost all of yours get punished? i dont care if they have the least abount of health, if you cant hit them at all then its completely unballanced.

Danioku
05-26-2017, 10:52 PM
Centurions have one of the faster heavy atttacks, and the shinobi was still able to parry it. Lets say a Lawbringer does this same move. His LIGHT is about as fast as the centurions heavy, maybe slower. How then are you supposed to do damage against a shinobi when you cant punish any of their moves and almost all of yours get punished? i dont care if they have the least abount of health, if you cant hit them at all then its completely unballanced.

This example shows exactly how to fight a Shinobi as LB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUsK0zi9V4

Felis_Menari
05-27-2017, 12:31 AM
This example shows exactly how to fight a Shinobi as LB

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGUsK0zi9V4

So, what's the takeaway here? The Shinobi is the ultimate turtle due to the lack of punishment for his botched moves?

Mythic MK II
05-27-2017, 02:21 AM
The grab on the dodge only takes efffect when they are already in close proximity of the player. As seen in this vid, the shinobi came from a distance, no way to grab it.
Slower characters are unable to properly punish it with lights/heavies after they dodge the kick. Most, if not all, shinobi's have already figured NOT to use a follow up heavy after they missed the kick and just backflip into safety.

I have had many encounters with shinobi's that do JUST that and continue until I, finally, mess up my dodge and continue to turtle from a distance again and do the same thing. Atleast let me throw in a light after I dodge it. D:
The timing to dodge it is sometimes wonky as well due to the angle of the kick.