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View Full Version : Dev's state that Shinobi should rely on deflect. But deflect is crap. Here's why.



Jasado
05-21-2017, 11:16 AM
TL;DR - How to make Deflect (For Shinobi) a worthwhile defense and a valid alternative to blocking. If Kick is going to be nerfed and ranged attacks make everyone cry, at least allow Shinobi to live up to the ninja fantasy of being hard to pin down and allowed to move fluidly.

1 - Remove the "sparking slide" of deflect confirmation and skip directly to the teleport upon successful deflect. This removes the very common situation of being hit with lights or other heavies during the "sparking slide", canceling a successful deflect, and does nothing to change the 1v1 environment. It also lives up to the fantasy of "so fast it happened before you realized it", and would allow Shinobi to realistically escape being pinned down, instead of being punished for succeeding in a deflect.

2 - Allow "backflip" to be a followup to deflect as well as kick or slash. You are already using deflect to escape in some situations, and it is counter-intuitive to not allow Shinobi to continue to want to escape a sticky raider's zone attack/heavy attack spammed area. Both the slash and kick followups are so slow animation locks, they get you killed more often than not. Plus, any person who panics even a slight bit and button mashes the grab button, will followup the kick with the ranged grab mixup, often resulting in you dying unintentionally or getting flipped on your *** unintentionally, thoroughly negating the entire point you went through deflecting.

3 - Give backflip some invincibility frames instead of super armor. Super armor on Shinobi outside of his Zone Attack is counter-intuitive to a class that is supposed to be fast. I don't care if you take armor away from his kick, but give him some iFrames where iFrames are due.

4 - Allow Sickle Rain be canceled at any time with a backflip or side dodge. This attack is already hard to pull off, because enemies can reject the grab or easily parry the second heavy, and on top of all of those risks, I need to sit still (horrible for a Shinobi) and participate in a Peacekeeper stab timing minigame. Sometimes, I just want the CC portion. Other times, I am getting heavied in the side of my neck. Shinobi should have the option of giving up his damage or continued CC by being able to backflip/deflect incoming attacks, as he is already standing at neutral with a defenseless enemy in front of him. His low HP pool warrants it, as do the risks leading up to the situation. Being punished for succeeding in your risks and being denied the intended design of your character at the same time feels bad, man.

5 - Allow guard break to be canceled with a dodge or backflip, for Shinobi. There are various times I either grab someone who is attacking my friend, or I am in revenge mode and force grab someone out of a heavy, only for a different incoming heavy to kill me, when I KNOW for a fact I could have deflected it. I am already giving up my guaranteed damage chance to do this, and if I did deflect the incoming heavy, chances are I want to escape after that too, but the slash followup to deflect is not enough damage to be "op".

This would allow Shinobi to navigate fights much easier and much more "ninja-like". It would give more value to even ATTEMPTING a deflect, which is currently such a bad option because of my low health that it isn't even worth the risk. I am better off trying to parry like a turtle ******* than doing what the Dev's want me to do as this character, so this is some feedback to address that.

If buffs like this, that make my character fit the core ideal of what I am supposed to be doing warrant a give-and-take nerf of armor kick, I'm fine with that. I don't need hyper armor on kick. Shinobi doesn't even need a slower guard decay. I DO need to be able to survive in situations I know I'm capable of doing it if my character weren't stuck in animation locks that keep me from living up to my potential as a dodge specialist with 90 hp.

Currently Rep 4 on Shinobi. I've been giving this issue some long thought before posting it, because I wanted to get the feedback right. I know talking about the taboo of possibly BUFFING a character that everyone is crying bloody murder about can look dense, but frankly, they are two separate issues. Kick is either going to get nerfed or not, but this issue is a core problem with the character potential.

Deflect is unreliable and since you cannot even change your guard until the hit-stun of a move finishes hitting you, it's even slower for you to react by dodging(to try and deflect), because dodging has startup that a guard switch is naturally faster than.

Secondly, the bleed from Shinobi deflect is negligible damage. Especially if the enemy has debuff resistance, and even moreso now that attack no longer affects bleed damage. The base value should be buffed, because it feels like it was intentionally small to account for the fact that attack WOULD affect it, but now doesn't, since the nerf.

Thirdly, you need to stop animation locking Shinobi during followups that DO NOT LET HIM DODGE. This INCLUDES Deflect.

So, here's the gist - anyone who plays Shinobi knows that your guard decay is the fastest in the game. You have to pinch block almost as fast as parry. The response from Dev's is "lul just use deflect".

So, if that's the case, make it a mechanic for Shinobi worth a damn. I get more safety out of a parry than a deflect. Why?

I'll explain why.

You force Shinobi to do the deflect animation, but he is still able to be hit during this. You claim to want him to use this to escape sticky situations or being backed into a wall, but THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN, because EVEN IF I LAND THE DEFLECT IN THE MIDDLE OF 4 PEOPLE SLAM JAMMING ON ME, SOMEONE'S attack will stumble me OUT of the deflect DURING THE DEFLECT.

So that's a complete fail in terms of design intentions. It does not get you out of most sticky situations, and even when you succeed, it actually gets you killed faster than parrying.

Because - let's say I do somehow manage to get the deflect without it being also interrupted. The pause of me appearing behind the target ALSO ANIMATION LOCKS ME, forcing me to do a million year long kick animation (which if you even dare double tap or mash it while pumped up on adrenaline from fighting so many people at once, you will DEFINITELY DIE because it will force you to do the ranged grab followup) or even the crap damage slash light attack. The backflip gives me super armor instead of invincibility frames, so even if I choose to do that after the already-slow followup, I will always die no matter what because I have no HP value and I am forced to do these animation locks.

If the goal is to make Shinobi defend with deflects, and be elusive and quick, then ACTUALLY DO THAT. I don't care if you nerf kick, I don't care if you don't improve the guard decay speed, I don't care if you nerf ranged attacks, but at least make the core ideal of what you presented for Shinobi work.

Which isn't as hard as it sounds.

Make deflect immediately poof into the smoke that teleports you behind your targets the second you trigger deflect. REMOVE the "sparking slide" animation. It's not needed for Shinobi. He's a Ninja. The second you properly deflect you should be behind the target before they know it happened. This will make it responsive enough to ACTUALLY escape being cornered and give him a fighting chance, instead of getting punished for using an already unresponsive mechanic CORRECTLY, and dying during the supposed "pay off".

Also, give Shinobi the option to backflip out of deflect's teleport, instead of just kick, or slash. Sometimes, both of those options guarantee I die.

I don't have time to kick or anything when I am 1 hp away from death and various enemy attacks are soft-tracking me through my deflect and trying to kill me. If a raider is spamming zone attack, my kick nor my slash are not fast enough to respond and escape.

So let me backflip away.

On that note, give these specific backflips some invincibility frames on startup. Super armor is cancer for a Shinobi.

Nobody likes him using it to kick you, and no Shinobi likes eating damage during a dodge. Super armor is for tanky meatbags, not dodge specialists.

And, finally - allows Shinobi to dodge cancel out of a grab or Sickle Rain.

I am sick and tired of being in a multi-fight, revenge burst knockdown 1 person, and grabbing a 2nd person during a heavy startup, and then a third person is also spamming a heavy, and I KNOW FOR A FACT I can deflect it if I could dodge, but the game doesn't let me, and I die, because my followup attack is not fast enough, and throwing them takes forever and gives me SUPER ARMOR, which does nothing to help me AVOID damage, by it's inherent design. Guess what? Revenge mode giving you temporary HP based on your max is STILL ZERO HP when your maximum is 90 hp.

If there is ANY class that should be allowed to do this, it should be the class the Dev's stated themselves that "deflect is supposed to be the primary means of defense".

Giving up my guaranteed damage chance on my grabbed target to deflect out of it on someone else if I have the reflexes is totally fair. All the followups on deflect do very little damage or are super situational.

Allowing Shinobi to dodge cancel out of Sickle Rain also let's him not get punished for playing right.

My ranged grab is already a chance for me to get thrown on my ***, and then I succeed, land the attack (which only because of the hotfix is finally guaranteed, it used to be blockable) and bring them to their knees, and get put into a peacekeeper stab timing minigame. There is like 3+ "skill/timing" checks involved for me to even initiate this attack, and I am aware it's very powerful - but it's still not cool that I can't backflip cancel or deflect incoming attacks I KNOW I can respond to because of animation lock.

It would be nice to have the CC option of just putting someone on their knees and then escaping to reset to neutral, even if it's to pacify someone attacking one of my allies.

I give up my damage opportunity to do so, and there's no reason Shinobi shouldn't have this option, because there are far more likely situations that this "reward" is actually still a "punishment" after succeeding taking the previous risks to pull it off. This issue only gets worse the better the enemy or enemy team is.

Jasado
05-22-2017, 03:38 AM
Bump.

Mia.Nora
05-22-2017, 03:50 AM
I think all deflects need UI (hyperarmor). When I am on my PK, I intentionally avoid deflect, since the next attack following deflected one either hits me before I hit them, or at the same time.

Right now it is in a horrible state as a mechanic.

Jasado
05-22-2017, 04:07 AM
I think all deflects need UI (hyperarmor). When I am on my PK, I intentionally avoid deflect, since the next attack following deflected one either hits me before I hit them, or at the same time.

Right now it is in a horrible state as a mechanic.

I don't disagree at all.

As Shinobi suffers really badly from UI/Hyperarmor without it being in the most broken situation (kick) is why I suggested to remove that slide animation and get directly to the teleport poof, for characters that actually DO the sparking slide in a way that makes sense, I agree it should have hyper armor.

After all, the Orochi heavy attack finally became viable when it was added.

It's obvious that deflect needs a serious looking at. Moreso now because Devs claim Shinobi should be RELIANT on it for primary defense. If the squishiest class is supposed to rely on this mechanic, this mechanic can't justify being so bleh.

SerArthur-Dayne
05-22-2017, 04:32 AM
YES!! Well said OP, I recently made a post along the same lines, and I completely agree with you with most of not all of what you said. But I think atm you can actually cancel sickle rain with a backflip (maybe only when the triple lights start) and you can backflip from a deflect provided you followed up the deflect with a light or kick.

I really dont mind if the kick gets a nerf to hyperarmor (maybe instead heavies and unblockables can stop it but lights cant unless from a char like shugoki?), as im all for less CC spam, even if it means nerfing my char in this way, but he really need some buffs in mostly his Deflect ability & Some I frames on deflect & backflip. If I could, I would change this:

1)Buff Shinobis deflect damage by a serious amount + Give the whole deflect + following light I-frames (invincibility frames) so it can be used in a gank.

2) Give the Backflip I frames, right now with the crazy tracking of every attack in the game, people literally fly 180 degrees through the air and hit you.

3) Fix the bug with Shinobi (and possibly Cent if he has it too) Where you have no I frames guring a roll, so people can grab you and hit you even if your mid roll.

4) Increase the Deflect window for enemies that you are not locked onto by a small amount. So if you getting ganked hard from the sides, its actually viable to use your kit and fight have a small chance at fighting a group provided you are essentially a parry god.

I really hope they listen to us on this, I want it to be a skill based class thats heavily reliant on perfect precision timing ( and heavily rewarding for it too). I just hit rep 6 with Shinobi and m y K/D is hal that of my other two mains, I think he needs this.

p00k.
05-22-2017, 05:26 AM
deflect is bad for everyone, not just shinobi. orochi, pk, zerk. if you can deflect you can parry. and parry will always be better. better punishes. safer. if the enemy feints to bait out a parry you can still cancel the parry. no such luck with a deflect.

the devs may say the shinobi should rely on deflect, but you could easily say that for all assassins since that's the supposed tradeoff for why they have reflex guard (at the same time i'm not sure why shinobi gets unblockable entry when no other assassin gets one. and if you want to call shinobi a hybrid no other hybrid deflects)

CaynAldan
05-22-2017, 02:46 PM
I still finf valk mechanic more viable than deflect with her block on dodge.

Xtendead
05-22-2017, 02:59 PM
...and if you want to call shinobi a hybrid no other hybrid deflects)

Valkyrie deflects and has Shoulder Pin as follow up.

Brologna_Xeno
05-22-2017, 03:03 PM
deflect is bad for everyone..

Yep! I think they need to add a small stamina or health restore on deflect for all Assassins to give more incentive. You can't compete with Parry otherwise.

Oupyz
05-22-2017, 04:11 PM
zerk ,, has the best deflect , helllo free gb , how can it be bad :/

Funeragon
05-22-2017, 04:41 PM
Does anyone noticed that when a shinobi deflects, he loses stamina and can't regain it for 4 or 5 sc