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Knight_Raime
05-21-2017, 11:04 AM
So I had posted a basic beginners guide for the centurion (will link if asked) a bit back. The idea was to give players some tips into the basics of the kit while also explaining some of the more sutble aspects of the kit. I'll also include match ups like last time. And just as a reminder i'm on xbox one. The only thing that is different this time is i'll be putting my opinion on the hero after because he's such a hot topic right now. Anyway lets get in:

~Shiobi's kick. Your bread and butter. It can be slightly delayed. I visually can't tell the difference when doing it. But can feel it on the receiving end. The guarenteed heavy after has to be qued up mid kick. You can't wait until after the kick lands to throw it. So it's technically possible to punish this. Though it's a beginners fault for only doing this off kick. Your best bet is to always do this out of range. never do it in their face. Both shinobi kicks currently can't splat people on a surface.

~Shinobi's tackle. Another pretty simple move to do that helps get you free damage (light light) if it lands. it still lands even if the person dodges sloppily and gets hit but doesn't fall. However it too can be side stepped even properly back dashed. therefore experiment with when you initiate slide. it will throw their dodge time off. And if they are really dodge happy about it try running at them but not sliding. if they dodge you can GB them for free. This move is hard to punish. the only 2 heros that I frequently play that can punish this are zerker and orochi's dash. Couldn't do it with pk. Probably because you lunge at the enemy in the process.

~Shinobi's double dodge. This is your main tool right here. Even more essential than your kick. the second dodge can be delayed slightly as well. Keep in mind that wherever your second dodge comes out is where your attacks will come out. You can technically switch your guard fast enough after the dodge to a different direction so the enemy doesn't predict your attack. However I struggled doing this consistently on console. Even with my deadzone at 5. Though in the end this doesn't really matter. as you have a mix up with it regardless. You can double dodge into a kick. Double dodge into light light. or double dodge into GB. I recommend anyone seeking to learn shinobi to nail down these things. and mix them up for awhile before trying to add in mix ups on top of those. as it kept me from feeling over frazzled trying to learn the kit. Lastly try your best to not double dodge in their face. it will get you GBed a lot.

~Shinobi's back flip. Your last biggest tool in the kit. It has full dodge property like bushi's hidden stance. due to the distance it covers there isn't a lot that can track it and hit you. You'll want to work this in as often as possible. It resets the fight and keeps you out of an enemies range (for the most part.) You can back flip off of nearly everything. Even whiffed attacks. Currently 7 of the 13 heros have a way to punish the kick whiff back flip combo. (will detail in the match ups) Lastly you can throw a ranged GB or a ranged heavy from a back flip without having to charge. But i'd recommend you avoid doing this most of the time. it's pretty easily punished. and even if the punish range is shorter now it's still a huge stam loss for you. which is bad because of how stamina intensive your kit is.

~shinobi misc. When you charge your heavy the color determines wether or not the attack has the range to land. red if miss blue if it has the range. You can still roll in if it misses. The other bit is a huge help against shinobi. The scythe in his non spinning hand gives away where the attack can come from. it'll be down towards your left if left. towards your right if right. and straight forward if up. Shinobi's deflect gives minor bleed. Shinobi is the only hero who can currently get out of a deflect. Shinobi's reflex guard decays much faster than the other assassins. Blocking should be your last resort. Currently parrying his zone doesn't drain his stamina. and punishing his ranged options still result in lost stamina for the opponent. unclear if these are bugs. You can't double dodge back. IMO what helped me with the timing on the lights for sickle rain was pressing the light as I saw the arm move away after the hit lands. Best punish for shinobi is a parried light into a ranged GB for sickle rain.

Alright now lets hop into some match ups. Like last time I will not have everyone listed here. as I either didn't fight a decent amount of them. Or I didn't fight them at all.

Warden: Bad match up for warden. Light light in any direction. can't punish his kick whiff back flip. Though he can punish the whiffed kick into heavy with an SB. Only decent ranged/tracking attack warden has is his zone. Best bet as warden really is to just parry as much as you can. A shinobi out of stam is a dead shinobi.

Conq: bad match up for conq. while the conq can dodge bash the kick into heavy that's all he can do. He doesn't have any ranged options. and his superior block really doesn't aid him in anyway against shinobi. I really have no saving advice for the conq here. even if you massively out play the shinobi in mind games he's just got much more tools compared to you.

PK: neutral. both have light light spam in any direction. She's got a decent tracking fast zone. Her dash attack can't punish either the kick heavy or the whiffed kick into dodge. however she technically can dash forward for that forward jumping attack to get you on your back flip. Shinobi is more agile and has more range. But all things considering that's not enough to tilt the fight in his favor. As a pk really just keep applying light light pressure. Don't allow him to get any in. if you can parry for your tripple stab. that takes half his health every time. Not positive But I think her max punish might even be able to kill him flat.

Law: As of right now it's a slightly bad match up for law. And imo this is for 2 reasons. dodge distance and guard switch. Law is actually surprisingly hard to open up. and he's got the tools to really punish shinobi. His side heavy has decent range and is amazing for trading with the kick. As soon as his guard switch speed is brought up i'd be willing to say it's in laws favor if you've got the reaction time. Until then though law is too slow. Best advise I can give any other fellow LB is to get in the habbit of throwing side heavies when you see the smoke confirming the kick. you've got the health and damage to make that good trade. Once shinobi respects that he's forced to either try and GB you or light light. which makes things more in laws court.

Raider: neutral. Slight edge to raider. Raider has much better mix up potential now. and due to his damage factor that adds a LOT of pressure to shinobi. Raider can also dodge the kick and GB for free. Though raider's attacks are pretty slow. and you can be tapped by the top blinded and still no brain dodge away from any follow up and do what you please. Because of that the match up is neutral.

Zerker: bad match up for Shinobi. EXTREMELY hard for shinobi to consistantly and constantly block a zerker inf combo that varies and feints a lot. The dodge attack punishes the kick whiff into heavy. and i'm almost certain you can combo that into a top like for unavoidable damage. The hyper armor on 2 seperate attacks without combos, the hyper armor on combos, and her OOS punish all wrapped to gether makes the match up deadly.

Valk: neutral. Slight edge to valk. her range is pretty scary. While she can't dodge attack to punish your kick heavy she can do a mini run into light or a top jump light to follow your whiffed kick into back flip. Her sweep mix ups if caught in it makes you dead. Though you're far more mobile than her. and your attacks should come out faster most of the time. So it's not really a bad match up. but it's not exactly easy one for shinobi either. Really as a valk you just need to land a sweep on them. If you can do that and keep them in the fight is basically over.

Kensei: I have little experience both playing as and fighting one as shinobi. But I wanted to mention kensei can combat both the kich whiff into heavy AND the kick whiff into back flip. it involves a dashing attack into a feint into another attack. I can't remember specifically what. But I thought it was important to mention for you dedicated kensei mains.

Goki: BAAAAAAAD match up for Shinobi. Your kick will not ignore his armor. nor will your tackle. That combined with the headbutt that he will always gett off trading with you does loads of stamina damage AND tracks your back flip. His damage potential on you is through the damn rough. His hyper armor alone removes both your kick and your backflip. Leaving light light and GB. Honestly the only way a shugoki will ever lose this match up is if the goki player is really bad or the shinobi is really good. As a shinobi you really want to keep their armor down as much as you can. other wise going in for anything is risky.

Orochi: neutral. Slight favor to orochi. Dodge attack counters both whiff kick into heavy and whiff kick into back flip. it also counters your tackle. His upper lights HURT for a shinobi. same with zone. His deflect game is strong on you as well. The only reason the fight is neutral is because orochi is typically predictable. and he's only got light light in one direction. You have it in all directions. Orochi basically doesn't care about your range. As an orochi just learn when to dodge attack and parry as much as you can. As a shinobi just don't be predictable. and bait out dodge attacks.

Bushi: Neutral. Though favor to bushi. Vipers retreat trades wonderfully with a landed kick into heavy. you can also hidden stance light light which tracks the whiffed kick into backflip. Way of the shark makes any hit landed on shinobi very scary indeed. All of that being said it's a lot like the match up versus centurion against her. If you manage to get in on her there isn't much she can do. though you really need to respect her range. as she can be just as deadly as you.

Cent: Covered this in my other guide. but it's a bad match up for centurion. Especially now that he's "fixed." He gets nothing off of parrying your zone. His kick and jab are laughably easy for you to dodge. and the delay on the heavy after a kick is long enough now that you can easily deflect or parry it. he's got no range. charging up his range will make it all easier for you to avoid and punish. The 2 things to look out for are his soft feint mixup with his heavies and if he ever lands a charged heavy with you near a surface. beyond that you can basically play with your food.

Lastly my "opinion" on him. I'll come right out and say it. He has 2 things that need nerfing. His kick. and his tackle. His tackle is already not supposed to give you free damage according to the devs. but it does. If it stays I won't really care. But I think it should go. his kick is just too powerful. even with options present to handle it. it doesn't make those match ups instantly better because of that. Shinobi is supposed to be a well and proper scary character with god mix ups. And the trade off is being stamina thirsty and pretty unsafe (both moves and health wise.) yet instead of getting interesting mind games we just get boring reactive kicks into heavy all day. I go out of my way to not play like that. And even message other shinobi's how fun it was to fight them when they didn't crutch on this playstyle. So how would I nerf it?

Add recovery frames to a whiffed kick. and remove the hyper armor. The recovery frames would mean you can't just miss throw and still get away fine. You'd still be able to back flip if your opponent doesn't properly or fast enough (or lacks an attack that is fast enough) but it opens the floor up for a lot more consistent punishes for a majority of the heros. And TBH I don't understand why the kick even has hyper armor. Majority of the attacks in the game are not fast enough thrown on reaction to even trade with the kick in the first place. It's removal would just further emphasize mix ups like the kit is supposed to do while also not killing the lethality of the kick itself.

I respect the devs for waiting longer to gather more data. But if we're honest it's going to be nerfed. There is no way it won't be. It's too safe. and it completely removes the point of the kit anyway. which is to literally win VIA mind games using mix ups. Thanks for reading. Hopefully someone finds it useful.

XxHunterHxX
05-21-2017, 11:16 AM
Shiobi's kick. Your bread and butter....and then you say you need them to nerf the kick.....

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a2/a2e2c23b6669a334364c83e892bdc9649deeec1aa530b29ce4 b6f73f37539d0d.jpg

Knight_Raime
05-21-2017, 11:19 AM
Shiobi's kick. Your bread and butter....and then you say you need them to nerf the kick.....

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/a2/a2e2c23b6669a334364c83e892bdc9649deeec1aa530b29ce4 b6f73f37539d0d.jpg

Liked because it's futureama. My wording might be odd. it's currently 5am for me when I normally sleep. But I wanted to get this out while it was still in my head.
It does need nerfing. and my suggested nerfs wouldn't kill it's viability. it just wouldn't be EZ mode anymore.

SerArthur-Dayne
05-21-2017, 11:44 AM
You say the class need nerfing? Ive just hit rep 6 with shinobi, and imo its extremely underpowered. Using my own player stats, im averaging half as good as my other mains, and that seems crazy weak to me. Can check out my heroes if you want: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Young_Tenchu/heroes

Ill concede the kick is annoying, I dont have trouble dodging it, but I dont care if they nerf it (as im not a huge fan of the relentless CC spam thats ruining dominion/ elim) so long as they buff some other stuff by a lot. I think he needs a few thing to be viable.

1) His backflip needs some I frames in it, because attacks just track and leap right to it no probs.

2) His deflect needs a HUGE buff to damage, tiny buff to extra frame or two of activation time & most importantly give it full I frames untill the light attack after it is finished so he can actually have sometihng skill based and usefull for group fights.

3) buff his revenge its pathetic. Ive been killed multiple times before the revenge activation animation has finished.

4) see how all this goes, and if he is still behind the roster after a week or two, maybe give him an extra half bar of health.

I really hope they release the standings of these heroes, I dont think hes as good as people think he is.

XxHunterHxX
05-21-2017, 11:47 AM
Liked because it's futureama. My wording might be odd. it's currently 5am for me when I normally sleep. But I wanted to get this out while it was still in my head.
It does need nerfing. and my suggested nerfs wouldn't kill it's viability. it just wouldn't be EZ mode anymore.

If you remove a steering wheel from a car and make it so you drive using a joystick you can still drive the car...but its not relly the same...as it was intended by the creator is it now ?

Lyskir
05-21-2017, 11:48 AM
You say the class need nerfing? Ive just hit rep 6 with shinobi, and imo its extremely underpowered. Using my own player stats, im averaging half as good as my other mains, and that seems crazy weak to me. Can check out my heroes if you want: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Young_Tenchu/heroes

Ill concede the kick is annoying, I dont have trouble dodging it, but I dont care if they nerf it (as im not a huge fan of the relentless CC spam thats ruining dominion/ elim) so long as they buff some other stuff by a lot. I think he needs a few thing to be viable.

1) His backflip needs some I frames in it, because attacks just track and leap right to it no probs.

2) His deflect needs a HUGE buff to damage, tiny buff to extra frame or two of activation time & most importantly give it full I frames untill the light attack after it is finished so he can actually have sometihng skill based and usefull for group fights.

3) buff his revenge its pathetic. Ive been killed multiple times before the revenge activation animation has finished.

4) see how all this goes, and if he is still behind the roster after a week or two, maybe give him an extra half bar of health.

I really hope they release the standings of these heroes, I dont think hes as good as people think he is.

extremely underpowerd? what?
deflect need a HUGE dmg buff ?? like wtf are u high?

XxHunterHxX
05-21-2017, 11:54 AM
extremely underpowerd? what?
deflect need a HUGE dmg buff ?? like wtf are u high?

Do you even have the season pass man ? did you play shinobi ?

SerArthur-Dayne
05-21-2017, 12:04 PM
extremely underpowerd? what?
deflect need a HUGE dmg buff ?? like wtf are u high?

No im not high... Ive played the class for over 122 levels, and im usually in the top 5% in the world with my K/D with my main (warden), and almost the same with my second ( PK), yet having mastered the shinobi, its only half as good as the warden or PK. Did you check the stats I posted? What stats do you have to backup your claim its OP? And how much have you played the class?

Heres a vid of me using the deflect, doing this online is way harder than with bots, but look at the damage it does, its pathetic. Can you honestly ell me this sort of damage is fine, for a move thats way harder than a parry, has no I frames like the parry does, and does less damage than a double a double light let alone a parry/ heavy. here:

https://youtu.be/mCTTd7b0ZMc

Morpheus256
05-21-2017, 12:35 PM
No im not high... Ive played the class for over 122 levels, and im usually in the top 5% in the world with my K/D with my main (warden), and almost the same with my second ( PK), yet having mastered the shinobi, its only half as good as the warden or PK.

Heres a vid of me using the deflect, doing this online is way harder than with bots, but look at the damage it does, its pathetic. Can you honestly ell me this sort of damage is fine, for a move thats way harder than a parry, has no I frames like the parry does, and does less damage than a double a double light let alone a parry/ heavy.

All deflects are situational. If your opponent is doing a heavy attack and you know you won't get a GB after parry you might as well go for the deflect since it deals more damage than a single light. Using deflects regularly is not worth it. Also: Shinobi's deflect can be followed up with a GB or light for more damage.

As for your point about having a worse K/D ratio with shinobi: Warden is probably the cheesiest character in the game and considered to be the second strongest after Warlord. It doesn't surprise me at all that your K/D ratio with him is way higher than with shinobi's.

XxHunterHxX
05-21-2017, 12:56 PM
All deflects are situational. If your opponent is doing a heavy attack and you know you won't get a GB after parry you might as well go for the deflect since it deals more damage than a single light. Using deflects regularly is not worth it. Also: Shinobi's deflect can be followed up with a GB or light for more damage.

As for your point about having a worse K/D ratio with shinobi: Warden is probably the cheesiest character in the game and considered to be the second strongest after Warlord. It doesn't surprise me at all that your K/D ratio with him is way higher than with shinobi's.

I relly cant w8 for people to play shinobi and die like 99999 times and see how ****ty he is...

Knight_Raime
05-21-2017, 10:39 PM
You say the class need nerfing? Ive just hit rep 6 with shinobi, and imo its extremely underpowered. Using my own player stats, im averaging half as good as my other mains, and that seems crazy weak to me. Can check out my heroes if you want: https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/Young_Tenchu/heroes

Ill concede the kick is annoying, I dont have trouble dodging it, but I dont care if they nerf it (as im not a huge fan of the relentless CC spam thats ruining dominion/ elim) so long as they buff some other stuff by a lot. I think he needs a few thing to be viable.

1) His backflip needs some I frames in it, because attacks just track and leap right to it no probs.

2) His deflect needs a HUGE buff to damage, tiny buff to extra frame or two of activation time & most importantly give it full I frames untill the light attack after it is finished so he can actually have sometihng skill based and usefull for group fights.

3) buff his revenge its pathetic. Ive been killed multiple times before the revenge activation animation has finished.

4) see how all this goes, and if he is still behind the roster after a week or two, maybe give him an extra half bar of health.

I really hope they release the standings of these heroes, I dont think hes as good as people think he is.


1) I don't care about stats. they can be padded. Until that's not a thing it holds zero weight with me.

2) No. it doesn't. a lot of people can't punish the back flip at all. of the ones that can only a few of them can realistically use it consistently against you. Shin doesn't need any more tools.

3) No it doesn't. Deflect is situational. it's not supposed to be your go to option. Back flip and double dodge are your defense. Realistically you should only be deflecting if you get put in a corner or are out numbered. Deflecting on orochi is really only to get in that mix up or that good heavy damage if you KNOW the person won't expect it. PK deflect is in the same situation as shin. it's not something you want to go for. only something to go for when your other defenses have failed. Zerker's defelct is the only deflect actually worth going for because of it's ability to throw. and that's fine.

4) Then activate it at a smarter time. Like when they are swinging at you.

5) he's not behind any roster at all. he's right up in god tier with warlord. If you seriously think he's weak it's 100% on you.

Also your other mains are going to have a better kd because they can afford to make more mistakes. Perhaps you should step up your game.

EDIT: nvm. you're talking about 4v4. I literally don't care for your opinion then. 4v4 is a mess for several reasons. until that gets a proper competitive pass over it's not even worth discussing imo.

Knight_Raime
05-21-2017, 10:43 PM
If you remove a steering wheel from a car and make it so you drive using a joystick you can still drive the car...but its not relly the same...as it was intended by the creator is it now ?

Not really sure I follow your analogy. The devs wanted a risky hit and run character who controls the flow of combat with his mobility.
Nothing is risky about going for a kick every time off reaction and getting a free heavy.

There for it goes against the kits intended design and should be fixed.

Even disregarding that i've already proved with my match up points that only 7 of the 13 current heros even have an option against his kick into heavy (whiff or not) and whiff kick into back flip. Even on top of that he's got plenty of other things he could be doing straight out of neutral. So it's basically neigh impossible to force a shinobi specifically into that one attack that your character can properly punish.

That in itself would be fine. if the kick itself was more balanced. Since the kit is about having options/mix ups. it's perfectly fine to have a lot of options from neutral. But because one option is clearly better than the rest and a hell of a lot more consistent to do it overrides the other parts of his kit. If you really can't see that as a problem I don't think there is much left to say to you.

Knight_Raime
05-21-2017, 10:45 PM
I relly cant w8 for people to play shinobi and die like 99999 times and see how ****ty he is...

Just because he can die easier doesn't make him a bad hero. PK had the lowest health before him. was she automatically bad because she died more often? no.
both her and shin have light light. except his is confirmed. where as hers just has better damage. He's got range and mobility over her. You're sorely underestimating him.

UbiNoty
05-21-2017, 10:52 PM
Woo that's a lot of stuff! Nice work - really especially like the information you're providing with specific match-ups and everything. If you like, I can also move this thread over into combat/strategy where it might be better suited.

Also we're most likely going to be taking a hard, second look at his kick when we go back over the data and feedback in a few weeks.

Knight_Raime
05-21-2017, 11:10 PM
Woo that's a lot of stuff! Nice work - really especially like the information you're providing with specific match-ups and everything. If you like, I can also move this thread over into combat/strategy where it might be better suited.

Also we're most likely going to be taking a hard, second look at his kick when we go back over the data and feedback in a few weeks.

If you feel it would be better suited in that section go right ahead. I just usually post my stuff in general discussion since i feel like it gets the most foot traffic.
And I know you guys mentioned that on the last den. Which i'm 100% fine with. Nothing wrong with getting more data just to make sure you've got the best possible perspective.
I just personally dislike the way it currently works because of how a lot of player mentality goes in pvp based games.

SerArthur-Dayne
05-22-2017, 05:52 AM
1) I don't care about stats. they can be padded. Until that's not a thing it holds zero weight with me.

2) No. it doesn't. a lot of people can't punish the back flip at all. of the ones that can only a few of them can realistically use it consistently against you. Shin doesn't need any more tools.

3) No it doesn't. Deflect is situational. it's not supposed to be your go to option. Back flip and double dodge are your defense. Realistically you should only be deflecting if you get put in a corner or are out numbered. Deflecting on orochi is really only to get in that mix up or that good heavy damage if you KNOW the person won't expect it. PK deflect is in the same situation as shin. it's not something you want to go for. only something to go for when your other defenses have failed. Zerker's defelct is the only deflect actually worth going for because of it's ability to throw. and that's fine.

4) Then activate it at a smarter time. Like when they are swinging at you.

5) he's not behind any roster at all. he's right up in god tier with warlord. If you seriously think he's weak it's 100% on you.

Also your other mains are going to have a better kd because they can afford to make more mistakes. Perhaps you should step up your game.

EDIT: nvm. you're talking about 4v4. I literally don't care for your opinion then. 4v4 is a mess for several reasons. until that gets a proper competitive pass over it's not even worth discussing imo.

Hey man, the level of condescension in your post is pretty full on. Ive noticed in all your posts on the forum, you go after people on a personal level instead of having a discussion (which you asked for in your title, and is the core concept of a forum). Telling people they arent good enough to have an opinion, or you dont care about others opinions "I literally don't care for your opinion then". It seems you just want to talk at people instead of with them.

Also just to argue your points a little: "I don't care about stats" I think basing an arguement on stats is a little more concrete than basing an arguement of subjective feelings, that why I used my own as a talking point. Untill we know what stats Ubi can see, its probably statistically more likely to assume mine are somewhere close to the middle using statistical probabilities given the nature of bell curves.

When youre talking about deflect: " it's not something you want to go for. only something to go for when your other defenses have failed". If your getting beaten, because you cant land parries, then deflect is the LAST think you want to go for, as its considerably harder to do, and its less rewarding in terms of damage. Only Orochi has a reason to bother try deflect, rest of the chars are far better of using parry into attack/GB. If you need to "get out of a corner" your still far better off parrying and just throwing the enemy behind you.

Also your other mains are going to have a better kd because they can afford to make more mistakes. Perhaps you should step up your game: More condescention, nice! That arguement makes no sense, whatsoever. Other mains are going to have a higher K/D and that is completely ok with you! because they have more health?.... What more evidence do you need to jump off the page and slap you in face to realise that this is not balanced.

he's not behind any roster at all. he's right up in god tier with warlord What are you basing this on? Is there some stats that you have but have not posted? Cheers.

Knight_Raime
05-22-2017, 08:27 AM
Hey man, the level of condescension in your post is pretty full on. Ive noticed in all your posts on the forum, you go after people on a personal level instead of having a discussion (which you asked for in your title, and is the core concept of a forum). Telling people they arent good enough to have an opinion, or you dont care about others opinions "I literally don't care for your opinion then". It seems you just want to talk at people instead of with them.

Also just to argue your points a little: "I don't care about stats" I think basing an arguement on stats is a little more concrete than basing an arguement of subjective feelings, that why I used my own as a talking point. Untill we know what stats Ubi can see, its probably statistically more likely to assume mine are somewhere close to the middle using statistical probabilities given the nature of bell curves.

When youre talking about deflect: " it's not something you want to go for. only something to go for when your other defenses have failed". If your getting beaten, because you cant land parries, then deflect is the LAST think you want to go for, as its considerably harder to do, and its less rewarding in terms of damage. Only Orochi has a reason to bother try deflect, rest of the chars are far better of using parry into attack/GB. If you need to "get out of a corner" your still far better off parrying and just throwing the enemy behind you.

Also your other mains are going to have a better kd because they can afford to make more mistakes. Perhaps you should step up your game: More condescention, nice! That arguement makes no sense, whatsoever. Other mains are going to have a higher K/D and that is completely ok with you! because they have more health?.... What more evidence do you need to jump off the page and slap you in face to realise that this is not balanced.

he's not behind any roster at all. he's right up in god tier with warlord What are you basing this on? Is there some stats that you have but have not posted? Cheers.

K let me back this up a bit. It's fair for you to assume that i'm being condesending. You don't know me. But I wasn't being that way. The only point at which I can agree where it sounded like that was my 4th point. I won't tell you your feelings are wrong. I'm simply telling you It wasn't meant like that. By me saying I don't care about your opinion i'm not saying your opinion is worthless. I'm telling you that it's not something worth bringing up with me specifically because of how I feel about 4v4. I could have worded things better for sure. I do forget that I happen to post in a lot of places. And here i'm not really known well enough versus other places I frequent. So I should probably be a bit more...flexible with my wording. Oh and my title wasn't asking for a discussion. It was me just giving my opinion of the current situation. Not that I would mind if a discussion took place.

1) Stats have their place. Like with the devs they currently look at w/l for fights only in the top 7-8% and only if both are at least rep one with the heros in said fights. However due to leaves not having a negative impact on stats and kills against bots are counted the same as normal player kills it's not really possible for someone to validate their stats with another person unless they stream/upload videos regularly.

2) Zerkers deflect can take you into her max OOS punish. so it's really worth using. it being a throw alone is worth using. I guess i'm on the opposite end of most people. I have a far easier time deflecting than parrying. and I can parry pretty often. I just choose to avoid deflect majority of the time because I feel parrying is more difficult. and i'd rather get used to that. Regardless I think deflects as a whole including shins are fine. But that's because I view them as an extra option in the pocket just for mix up sake. I don't tend to play "the most optimal way possible" because that's boring in for honor.

3) Yes. they have more health. better guard. That allows them to play sloppier. and punishes are going to hurt less. I don't see how it's not balanced. Shin is supposed to be really punishing if you make a mistake. the specifically wanted a hero that had the greatest potential but also was severely punished if you didn't master them. That's the vibe I get from the design of the kit and how they've talked about shin. But perhaps this isn't appealing to people. I mean not everyone likes a hardcore challenge. I'd suggest people look elsewhere if they don't want to be slapped that hard for making a simple mistake. Like i'm not about to go ask they make warlord completely different just because he doesn't suit my idea of a sword and board hero.

4) My own feelings+ what I hear from a lot of competitive people + people who actively participate in tournaments. People who are in the top 5% of the players. Shin like warlord has a solution for basically any situation. The sheer amount of options he has from neutral is far more than anyone else in the current roster. He literally dictates both the range and when/where he wants to fight. Incredibly hard to lock down. No solid way across the board to punish shinobi with most heros. All of this is balanced out by having the lowest health pool in the game, being incredibly stamina intensive, almost no guarenteed/safe moves, and pretty meh damage all things considered.
Basically if you get the general gist of how the current tier system is in for honor that a majority agree with and you understand why warlord is where he is you should be able to understand why shinobi is up there with him.

Haemmerst0rm
05-22-2017, 08:31 AM
So I had posted a basic beginners guide for the centurion (will link if asked) a bit back. The idea was to give players some tips into the basics of the kit while also explaining some of the more sutble aspects of the kit. I'll also include match ups like last time. And just as a reminder i'm on xbox one. The only thing that is different this time is i'll be putting my opinion on the hero after because he's such a hot topic right now. Anyway lets get in:

~Shiobi's kick. Your bread and butter. It can be slightly delayed. I visually can't tell the difference when doing it. But can feel it on the receiving end. The guarenteed heavy after has to be qued up mid kick. You can't wait until after the kick lands to throw it. So it's technically possible to punish this. Though it's a beginners fault for only doing this off kick. Your best bet is to always do this out of range. never do it in their face. Both shinobi kicks currently can't splat people on a surface.

~Shinobi's tackle. Another pretty simple move to do that helps get you free damage (light light) if it lands. it still lands even if the person dodges sloppily and gets hit but doesn't fall. However it too can be side stepped even properly back dashed. therefore experiment with when you initiate slide. it will throw their dodge time off. And if they are really dodge happy about it try running at them but not sliding. if they dodge you can GB them for free. This move is hard to punish. the only 2 heros that I frequently play that can punish this are zerker and orochi's dash. Couldn't do it with pk. Probably because you lunge at the enemy in the process.

~Shinobi's double dodge. This is your main tool right here. Even more essential than your kick. the second dodge can be delayed slightly as well. Keep in mind that wherever your second dodge comes out is where your attacks will come out. You can technically switch your guard fast enough after the dodge to a different direction so the enemy doesn't predict your attack. However I struggled doing this consistently on console. Even with my deadzone at 5. Though in the end this doesn't really matter. as you have a mix up with it regardless. You can double dodge into a kick. Double dodge into light light. or double dodge into GB. I recommend anyone seeking to learn shinobi to nail down these things. and mix them up for awhile before trying to add in mix ups on top of those. as it kept me from feeling over frazzled trying to learn the kit. Lastly try your best to not double dodge in their face. it will get you GBed a lot.

~Shinobi's back flip. Your last biggest tool in the kit. It has full dodge property like bushi's hidden stance. due to the distance it covers there isn't a lot that can track it and hit you. You'll want to work this in as often as possible. It resets the fight and keeps you out of an enemies range (for the most part.) You can back flip off of nearly everything. Even whiffed attacks. Currently 7 of the 13 heros have a way to punish the kick whiff back flip combo. (will detail in the match ups) Lastly you can throw a ranged GB or a ranged heavy from a back flip without having to charge. But i'd recommend you avoid doing this most of the time. it's pretty easily punished. and even if the punish range is shorter now it's still a huge stam loss for you. which is bad because of how stamina intensive your kit is.

~shinobi misc. When you charge your heavy the color determines wether or not the attack has the range to land. red if miss blue if it has the range. You can still roll in if it misses. The other bit is a huge help against shinobi. The scythe in his non spinning hand gives away where the attack can come from. it'll be down towards your left if left. towards your right if right. and straight forward if up. Shinobi's deflect gives minor bleed. Shinobi is the only hero who can currently get out of a deflect. Shinobi's reflex guard decays much faster than the other assassins. Blocking should be your last resort. Currently parrying his zone doesn't drain his stamina. and punishing his ranged options still result in lost stamina for the opponent. unclear if these are bugs. You can't double dodge back. IMO what helped me with the timing on the lights for sickle rain was pressing the light as I saw the arm move away after the hit lands. Best punish for shinobi is a parried light into a ranged GB for sickle rain.

Alright now lets hop into some match ups. Like last time I will not have everyone listed here. as I either didn't fight a decent amount of them. Or I didn't fight them at all.

Warden: Bad match up for warden. Light light in any direction. can't punish his kick whiff back flip. Though he can punish the whiffed kick into heavy with an SB. Only decent ranged/tracking attack warden has is his zone. Best bet as warden really is to just parry as much as you can. A shinobi out of stam is a dead shinobi.

Conq: bad match up for conq. while the conq can dodge bash the kick into heavy that's all he can do. He doesn't have any ranged options. and his superior block really doesn't aid him in anyway against shinobi. I really have no saving advice for the conq here. even if you massively out play the shinobi in mind games he's just got much more tools compared to you.

PK: neutral. both have light light spam in any direction. She's got a decent tracking fast zone. Her dash attack can't punish either the kick heavy or the whiffed kick into dodge. however she technically can dash forward for that forward jumping attack to get you on your back flip. Shinobi is more agile and has more range. But all things considering that's not enough to tilt the fight in his favor. As a pk really just keep applying light light pressure. Don't allow him to get any in. if you can parry for your tripple stab. that takes half his health every time. Not positive But I think her max punish might even be able to kill him flat.

Law: As of right now it's a slightly bad match up for law. And imo this is for 2 reasons. dodge distance and guard switch. Law is actually surprisingly hard to open up. and he's got the tools to really punish shinobi. His side heavy has decent range and is amazing for trading with the kick. As soon as his guard switch speed is brought up i'd be willing to say it's in laws favor if you've got the reaction time. Until then though law is too slow. Best advise I can give any other fellow LB is to get in the habbit of throwing side heavies when you see the smoke confirming the kick. you've got the health and damage to make that good trade. Once shinobi respects that he's forced to either try and GB you or light light. which makes things more in laws court.

Raider: neutral. Slight edge to raider. Raider has much better mix up potential now. and due to his damage factor that adds a LOT of pressure to shinobi. Raider can also dodge the kick and GB for free. Though raider's attacks are pretty slow. and you can be tapped by the top blinded and still no brain dodge away from any follow up and do what you please. Because of that the match up is neutral.

Zerker: bad match up for Shinobi. EXTREMELY hard for shinobi to consistantly and constantly block a zerker inf combo that varies and feints a lot. The dodge attack punishes the kick whiff into heavy. and i'm almost certain you can combo that into a top like for unavoidable damage. The hyper armor on 2 seperate attacks without combos, the hyper armor on combos, and her OOS punish all wrapped to gether makes the match up deadly.

Valk: neutral. Slight edge to valk. her range is pretty scary. While she can't dodge attack to punish your kick heavy she can do a mini run into light or a top jump light to follow your whiffed kick into back flip. Her sweep mix ups if caught in it makes you dead. Though you're far more mobile than her. and your attacks should come out faster most of the time. So it's not really a bad match up. but it's not exactly easy one for shinobi either. Really as a valk you just need to land a sweep on them. If you can do that and keep them in the fight is basically over.

Kensei: I have little experience both playing as and fighting one as shinobi. But I wanted to mention kensei can combat both the kich whiff into heavy AND the kick whiff into back flip. it involves a dashing attack into a feint into another attack. I can't remember specifically what. But I thought it was important to mention for you dedicated kensei mains.

Goki: BAAAAAAAD match up for Shinobi. Your kick will not ignore his armor. nor will your tackle. That combined with the headbutt that he will always gett off trading with you does loads of stamina damage AND tracks your back flip. His damage potential on you is through the damn rough. His hyper armor alone removes both your kick and your backflip. Leaving light light and GB. Honestly the only way a shugoki will ever lose this match up is if the goki player is really bad or the shinobi is really good. As a shinobi you really want to keep their armor down as much as you can. other wise going in for anything is risky.

Orochi: neutral. Slight favor to orochi. Dodge attack counters both whiff kick into heavy and whiff kick into back flip. it also counters your tackle. His upper lights HURT for a shinobi. same with zone. His deflect game is strong on you as well. The only reason the fight is neutral is because orochi is typically predictable. and he's only got light light in one direction. You have it in all directions. Orochi basically doesn't care about your range. As an orochi just learn when to dodge attack and parry as much as you can. As a shinobi just don't be predictable. and bait out dodge attacks.

Bushi: Neutral. Though favor to bushi. Vipers retreat trades wonderfully with a landed kick into heavy. you can also hidden stance light light which tracks the whiffed kick into backflip. Way of the shark makes any hit landed on shinobi very scary indeed. All of that being said it's a lot like the match up versus centurion against her. If you manage to get in on her there isn't much she can do. though you really need to respect her range. as she can be just as deadly as you.

Cent: Covered this in my other guide. but it's a bad match up for centurion. Especially now that he's "fixed." He gets nothing off of parrying your zone. His kick and jab are laughably easy for you to dodge. and the delay on the heavy after a kick is long enough now that you can easily deflect or parry it. he's got no range. charging up his range will make it all easier for you to avoid and punish. The 2 things to look out for are his soft feint mixup with his heavies and if he ever lands a charged heavy with you near a surface. beyond that you can basically play with your food.

Lastly my "opinion" on him. I'll come right out and say it. He has 2 things that need nerfing. His kick. and his tackle. His tackle is already not supposed to give you free damage according to the devs. but it does. If it stays I won't really care. But I think it should go. his kick is just too powerful. even with options present to handle it. it doesn't make those match ups instantly better because of that. Shinobi is supposed to be a well and proper scary character with god mix ups. And the trade off is being stamina thirsty and pretty unsafe (both moves and health wise.) yet instead of getting interesting mind games we just get boring reactive kicks into heavy all day. I go out of my way to not play like that. And even message other shinobi's how fun it was to fight them when they didn't crutch on this playstyle. So how would I nerf it?

Add recovery frames to a whiffed kick. and remove the hyper armor. The recovery frames would mean you can't just miss throw and still get away fine. You'd still be able to back flip if your opponent doesn't properly or fast enough (or lacks an attack that is fast enough) but it opens the floor up for a lot more consistent punishes for a majority of the heros. And TBH I don't understand why the kick even has hyper armor. Majority of the attacks in the game are not fast enough thrown on reaction to even trade with the kick in the first place. It's removal would just further emphasize mix ups like the kit is supposed to do while also not killing the lethality of the kick itself.

I respect the devs for waiting longer to gather more data. But if we're honest it's going to be nerfed. There is no way it won't be. It's too safe. and it completely removes the point of the kit anyway. which is to literally win VIA mind games using mix ups. Thanks for reading. Hopefully someone finds it useful.

What about warlord?! Any details can be useful for me as warlord main! :D

Knight_Raime
05-22-2017, 08:38 AM
What about warlord?! Any details can be useful for me as warlord main! :D

I had excluded warlord because I hadn't fought a whole heck of a lot in the 2 ish days I dedicated to shinobi. So take what I say as a grain of salt.
I'm like 60-80% sure you can use your zone to react trade with the kick into heavy. It does have tracking. so it "might" be able to track the whiff kick into back flip. but I don't know.
If you can enter full guard fast enough (not sure since they nerfed it) you should be able to take the kick and block the follow up heavy and get a free hit. I would do this on conq against a SB spamming warden or a headbutt spam warlord a while ago. the trick is to start going into full block as the unblockable is coming out. if it hasn't been fixed you should be in full block after the unblockable hits. and since they have to que the heavy mid kick and the warlord gets a free hit off of blocking a hit with full guard that would be a decent way. IF it still works.

other than that you can try your best to do heavies when you think they are going to light light or go for a GB. as it should stop the GB if the animation is far enough along. and you've got hyper armor. so your heavy should land. though its entirely possible they can light and backflip or even light light and back flip before the heavy comes all the way out. As I said I don't have a lot of experience here. so i'm just spitballing ideas based on my current game knowledge.

SnugglesIV
05-22-2017, 11:54 AM
You say the class need nerfing? Ive just hit rep 6 with shinobi, and imo its extremely underpowered. Using my own player stats.

Your stats are irrelevant, and are nothing more than anecdotes. If someone else came into the thread and said "I've just hit rep 6 with Shinobi, and imo its extremely overpowered. Using my own player stats[...]," you would be unable to dispute their claim. Also, For Honor Tracker is a bit of a joke. I don't put much credence into it since the only stats that would be worth looking at is winrate and K/D/A (and even these stats don't necessarily say anything about your skill as you could simply be stomping newbies which would inflate your stats).