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View Full Version : Fix to all CC/UB spam in 4v4 Game Modes



Dizzy4213
05-20-2017, 04:00 AM
These moves aren't a problem in 1v1 for the most part. It's in 4v4 game modes where things start getting out of hand. The problem is, how do you put an end to the spam without completely destroying the moves in a 1v1 scenario?

The answer is simple. Make revenge mode immune to all CC/UB attacks. By this, I mean things like Conquerors Shield Bash, not an unblockable attack like Raider's Zone just to clear up any confusion. For example, if a Conqueror hits me with a running Shield Crush and I'm in Revenge Mode, I won't be knocked down. The attack will simply do nothing to me.

Revenge was nerfed awhile back because it was simply too strong. From what I understood at the time, the devs intended it to be used as an escape tool, so you could prolong the fight long enough to get help or run away. By making Revenge Mode immune to CC/UB attacks, it allows the user to do exactly that. I think we've all seen the carnage multiple Centurions can do to you when outnumbered. There's zero chance of fighting back because you're constantly getting stun-locked. I don't see anyway you could fix this without nerfing those moves into the ground. Thus, I propose you implement this desperately needed change to Revenge Mode.

Some could see this as a buff to Revenge Mode, which it technically is, but I'd like to think of it as a fix rather than a buff. Since Revenge Mode was drastically nerfed, I see absolutely no issue with introducing such a change. As long as you play it smart, it's easy to kill a Revenged player if he/she is outnumbered.

I'd really like to hear the devs thoughts on this. To me at least, this is how Revenge Mode should have always functioned.

Edit: I forgot to mention, but Revenged unblockables should also no longer knock down your opponent if you're in Revenge Mode. This is to balance Revenge Mode being immune to all CC/UB spam, and to prevent the Revenged player having a massive advantage over those who aren't in Revenge Mode. This change will also help heroes such as Kensei, who don't have an unblockable/unparryable attack that could knock an opponent down if they were in Revenge Mode.

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 04:07 AM
While I know it's frustrating to be CCd non-stop, I'm not sure there's any reason to.

It's only a thing in 4v4, and in that 4v4 it's only a thing if you are fighting outnumbered. The answer to problems you meet when being outnumbered, is to either escape that situation, or never allow that to happen in the first place. That's why even quite superior players have a lot of trouble when outnumbered, since numbers are the ultimate punishment for a moment of misjudgement in calculating your odds.

The end result is brutal, and we don't like it sometimes, but isn't that why we emphasize smart team play and tactics in the first place?

Limiting CCs to become a non-factor during revenge, simply means a skilled player will be slaughtering 1v3, 1v4 odds the way they used to. Despite people complaining about the revenge nerf, now I see more and more people who might necessarily win 1vX fights, but give the attackers run for their money. Mostly even such skilled players are limited to be on the defensive, watching out for overextending themselves, often stayting their hand to a finishing blow to someone, because that momentary opening will mean death to him when someone else dives in with a CC. You're asking the game to remove this.


I can only agree to one thing -- revenge activatrion MUST protect you against incoming unblockables. This is the only change I'd agree to, because revenge is made counter intuitive by UB spam attacks just punching through the revenge knockdown effect while you are immobilized and unable to defend yourself at revenge activation. But outside that... I really don't think so.

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 04:08 AM
It's something that would be interesting to try first maybe in the ptrs they were talking about.
My only concern was cc was the only defense against heros like WL, conq, valk, and warden. I agree that's it gotten out of hand where it's at though and it'll be very difficult to get it back to a somewhat healthy place.

Dizzy4213
05-20-2017, 04:15 AM
Limiting CCs to become a non-factor during revenge, simply means a skilled player will be slaughtering 1v3, 1v4 odds the way they used to. Despite people complaining about the revenge nerf, now I see more and more people who might necessarily win 1vX fights, but give the attackers run for their money. Mostly even such skilled players are limited to be on the defensive, watching out for overextending themselves, often stayting their hand to a finishing blow to someone, because that momentary opening will mean death to him when someone else dives in with a CC. You're asking the game to remove this.

Had this been the old Revenge Mode, I would completely agree with you. However, since it's been nerfed, I'm going to have to disagree. That's why I said, as long as you play it smart, you should easily be able to kill the Revenge player.

I forgot to mention, but Revenged unblockables should also no longer knock down the opponent if you're in Revenge. This would be to balance Revenge Mode being immune to all CC/UB spam, and to prevent the Revenged opponent having a missive advantage over those who aren't in Revenge.

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 04:19 AM
Had this been the old Revenge Mode, I would completely agree with you. However, since it's been nerfed, I'm going to have to disagree. That's why I said, as long as you play it smart, you should easily be able to kill the Revenge player.

I forgot to add to mention, but Revenged unblockables should also no longer knock down the opponent if you're in Revenge. This would be to balance Revenge Mode being immune to all CC/UB spam, and to prevent the Revenged opponent having a missive advantage over those who aren't in Revenge.

With this tweak then maybe it wouldn't be an issue. I'd say it's worth at the very least testing out, it can't get much worse than where it is now. I'd take old revenge over what we have now anyday.

ArlianDeBias
05-20-2017, 04:29 AM
These moves aren't a problem in 1v1 for the most part. It's in 4v4 game modes where things start getting out of hand. The problem is, how do you put an end to the spam without completely destroying the moves in a 1v1 scenario?

The answer is simple. Make revenge mode immune to all CC/UB attacks. By this, I mean things like Conquerors Shield Bash, not an unblockable attack like Raider's Zone just to clear up any confusion. For example, if a Conqueror hits me with a running Shield Crush and I'm in Revenge Mode, I won't be knocked down. The attack will simply do nothing to me.

Revenge was nerfed awhile back because it was simply too strong. From what I understood at the time, the devs intended it to be used as an escape tool, so you could prolong the fight long enough to get help or run away. By making Revenge Mode immune to CC/UB attacks, it allows the user to do exactly that. I think we've all seen the carnage multiple Centurions can do you when outnumbered. There's zero chance of fighting back because you're constantly getting stun-locked. I don't see anyway you could fix this without nerfing those moves into the ground. Thus, I propose you implement this desperately needed change to Revenge Mode.

Some could see this as a buff to Revenge Mode, which it technically is, but I'd like to think of it as a fix rather than a buff. Since Revenge Mode was drastically nerfed, I see absolutely no issue with introducing such a change. As long as you play it smart, it's easy to kill a Revenged player if he/she is outnumbered.

I'd really like to hear the devs thoughts on this. To me at least, this is how Revenge Mode should have always functioned.

Edit: I forgot to mention, but Revenged unblockables should also no longer knock down your opponent if you're in Revenge. This is to balance Revenge Mode being immune to all CC/UB spam, and to prevent the Revenged player having a missive advantage over those who aren't in Revenge Mode. This change will also help heroes such as Kensei, who don't have an unblockable/unparryable attack that could knock an opponent down if they were in Revenge.

I logged in to say I one hundred percent agree with this post, and just wanted to show my support.

4v4 would be much more balanced with the changes you proposed. Ubisoft, please read this!

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 06:35 AM
Had this been the old Revenge Mode, I would completely agree with you. However, since it's been nerfed, I'm going to have to disagree. That's why I said, as long as you play it smart, you should easily be able to kill the Revenge player.

...which, IMO, is irrelvant. Honestly, regarding UB+CCs, there's nothing different.

Me I have a thing for the "underdogs" whether be it a whole faction, or a certain class. I've only played ANY class with the stupid unblockable+unparriable spams to just find out what skills they have and never as a main, nor in any kind of depth.

All my classes I've invested time into are Kensei, Raider, Shugoki, Nobushi and PK. You'll see a pattern there that except for the PK none of them are what's been considered "OP" classes (I've started Shug AFTER they fixed the OniC) and none of them have any kind of fast, reliable UB openers.

The Shug has DemE which is useless in 1v1 unless near a wall, and while it's also one of the "CC spammers" in 4v4, DemE is in no way as efficient as spamming other, less dangerous unblockable CCs. Honestly with the Shib/Cent in the roster I feel the Shugoki is now obsolete as a real "4v4 disabler", even. Besides the Shug the only class that has any "CC" is the Raider with the easily telegraphed Stampede Charge.

To me, whether it's season 2 with v1.07, or before that, it's the same UB spamming lameness when trapped in 1vX scenarios. The Lawbs and their endless stamina-busting pushes and pancake flippin' that turns you over the moment you activate revenge, the Valks and their sweeps from flankside, the endless repetitions of shoulderbash into my backside... what's actually different when it's a Cent or a Shib doing it?

Nothing.


I don't know what class you play, but if you main Warlords, Conquerors, Lawbringers, Wardens, or Valkyries in 4v4, then I don't understand what your grievance is, because the chances are you've probably been doing it to someone else all along.

Or, maybe you're an "honorable player" and personally don't like that "CC-ganking" and may not do it, -- but in 4v4 you and I both know any class player that has UB+UP or UB+UP+CC they sho' gonna abuse it to kingdom come.


So I really don't understand. As a Shug/Nob/Kens/PK/Raider player, just exactly what am I supposed to be more "angry" about when it's a Cent/Shib doing the UB spamming to me, than when it's a WD/WL/LB/CQ/VK? :confused:

Egotistic_Ez
05-20-2017, 07:03 AM
Never thought I;d say this but I agree, buff revenge.

Honestly, it is a nice solution to the issue.


It's only a thing in 4v4, and in that 4v4 it's only a thing if you are fighting outnumbered. The answer to problems you meet when being outnumbered, is to either escape that situation, or never allow that to happen in the first place.

I don't normally like being so direct, but you're an idiot.

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 07:08 AM
I don't normally like being so direct, but you're an idiot.

*shrug* If you insist. :rolleyes:

Dunno what's the deal with you but if you've got nothing else to add to the discussion than just insults, you've got issues, friend.

Egotistic_Ez
05-20-2017, 08:03 AM
*shrug* If you insist. :rolleyes:

Dunno what's the deal with you but if you've got nothing else to add to the discussion than just insults, you've got issues, friend.

Well then let me elaborate. The premise for your argument requires 4v4 to be played in a way that doesn't and will never exist. It's a fictional scenario created by you for these forums that, while sounding OK on paper, would actually result in almost no combat and even fewer actual kills.

You are either intentionally misleading people, or are simply an idiot. I chose the one where you aren't a terrible person. Apologies if that isn't the case.

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 08:15 AM
Well then let me elaborate. The premise for your argument requires 4v4 to be played in a way that doesn't and will never exist. It's a fictional scenario created by you for these forums that, while sounding OK on paper, would actually result in almost no combat and even fewer actual kills.

What's this supposed "fiction"? That people are smart enough to avoid keep on falling to ganks? :rolleyes:

You aren't trying to pass around the "gank squad" theory, are you? I hope not.




You are either intentionally misleading people, or are simply an idiot. I chose the one where you aren't a terrible person. Apologies if that isn't the case.

The term "misleading" would imply I an lying about that people learn how to move and support each other in 4v4 modes. Whereas I observe these cases as much as the opposite where all four people are running around headless chickens, I say you treating what is very much part of reality as "fantasy" would be even more "misleading"

Average players aren't anything special, but they're not dumb. They learn what works and doesn't in 4v4.


(ps) besides, again, you're saying that as if it's anything new. People have weathered versions before v1.07. Why should this suddenly be a serious problem when it wasn't before?

ArlianDeBias
05-20-2017, 08:26 AM
Average players aren't anything special, but they're not dumb. They learn what works and doesn't in 4v4.

Have you ever played a massively multiplayer online video game before? 99% of the teammates in the matches I play wouldn't be able to pass the Turing test, let alone do anything to help the team win.

I think a lot of your arguments are based off the assumption that good players don't have a problem dealing with ganking, and if they did have a problem then that's just how the cookie crumbles and they should bite the bullet. In answer to those assumptions, I'm on the Leaderboard for top Peacekeeper players in the world and let me tell you that I routinely have problems with gank squads who just spam stun and CC abilities repeatedly until I am dead. There also shouldn't be any lose-lose situations in the game, and running away from an objective to escape a 'gank squad' is a lose-lose situation. I don't think things should stay the way they are and the suggestions that OP outlined would fix the current issues with revenge and ganking pretty well in my opinion.

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 09:40 AM
Have you ever played a massively multiplayer online video game before? 99% of the teammates in the matches I play wouldn't be able to pass the Turing test, let alone do anything to help the team win.

Unless you're saying just every player you meet in every game is somehow "bottom of the barrel", your experience doesn't match mine at all. Some games you're teamed with bad people, other games good people, and still others you're the only "bad" player. Likewise, the randomness of PUG matching works both ways, and even if my team is "bad", doesn't always mean their team is good.

I really gotta question selective memory. Are you people sure you're not just remembering the "worst cases" which is branded into your memory, and casually forgetting all the cases when things went well?



I think a lot of your arguments are based off the assumption that good players don't have a problem dealing with ganking, and if they did have a problem then that's just how the cookie crumbles and they should bite the bullet. In answer to those assumptions, I'm on the Leaderboard for top Peacekeeper players in the world and let me tell you that I routinely have problems with gank squads who just spam stun and CC abilities repeatedly until I am dead. There also shouldn't be any lose-lose situations in the game, and running away from an objective to escape a 'gank squad' is a lose-lose situation. I don't think things should stay the way they are and the suggestions that OP outlined would fix the current issues with revenge and ganking pretty well in my opinion.

No, a lot of my assumptions are based in that "being ganked is bad for your health, whether be it your good or not". Hence, people try to avoid getting ganked, but the trick being that just avoiding fights will naturally cause your team to suffer. So every player plays trying to balance between self-preservation and the needs of the team, which is a hard task admittedly, but then so is it the same for the other team as well.

Besides, you guys still haven't answered any of the crucial question: why now?

For a moment after v1.05 the great "bring back my revenge" complaints persisted throughout the forums, then as with all things, it went quiet. Then, suddenly, it's back on again, with many of the people using the excuse that the Cent/Shib has somehow made it worse.

Except it didn't, did it?

Like I've mentioned before, I don't use classes with easy UB spamming. For me, I'm always on the receiving end of that buggery, and nothing's changed or different at all. So clearly, my contention is using season2 and new classes as an excuse to imply somehow it got worse, is a sham. What I think, is this is simply another version of the "bring back my revenge" or "I need compensation for my bad gameplay" line of complaints against "ganking" -- which, btw, is in every MMOG up to date.

Set aside those egos and pride and stop thinking about how you're rep30 GS130+ class is being beaten by a rep0 new Cent/Shib, and basically, nothing's changed at all.

Charmzzz
05-20-2017, 09:48 AM
2 days ago I was in a premade with a very good Raider and an excellent Berserker. I was playing PK, as usual. In Dominion we faced a full premade Team (their clantag was "DD"), they went for 2 Centurions, 1 Shinobi and a Valk. They ONLY ran around as 4 and spammed CC.

They always left the match after they lost, but good ol' matchmaker decided that our teams were good matchups, so we played them several times. All 3 rounds we faced them were wins for us.

Yes, if they catched me alone it was a mess. 0 control over my character until death. But as soon as we were 2-3 people facing them we WRECKED. Literally destroyed them, we won with 500+ Points ahead. It was frustrating to get caught in their CC-train, but in the end their "tactic" (I would call it cheese) was lackluster.

CaptainPwnet
05-20-2017, 10:09 AM
While I know it's frustrating to be CCd non-stop, I'm not sure there's any reason to.

It's only a thing in 4v4, and in that 4v4 it's only a thing if you are fighting outnumbered. The answer to problems you meet when being outnumbered, is to either escape that situation, or never allow that to happen in the first place. That's why even quite superior players have a lot of trouble when outnumbered, since numbers are the ultimate punishment for a moment of misjudgement in calculating your odds.

The end result is brutal, and we don't like it sometimes, but isn't that why we emphasize smart team play and tactics in the first place?

Limiting CCs to become a non-factor during revenge, simply means a skilled player will be slaughtering 1v3, 1v4 odds the way they used to. Despite people complaining about the revenge nerf, now I see more and more people who might necessarily win 1vX fights, but give the attackers run for their money. Mostly even such skilled players are limited to be on the defensive, watching out for overextending themselves, often stayting their hand to a finishing blow to someone, because that momentary opening will mean death to him when someone else dives in with a CC. You're asking the game to remove this.


I can only agree to one thing -- revenge activatrion MUST protect you against incoming unblockables. This is the only change I'd agree to, because revenge is made counter intuitive by UB spam attacks just punching through the revenge knockdown effect while you are immobilized and unable to defend yourself at revenge activation. But outside that... I really don't think so.

This, find it funny that some people here called this guy an idiot when he pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you can't adapt and ping for help or recognize no help may come and you would be better off retreating from the situation to do things elsewhere then that is your own fault. Outnumbered situations are not supposed to be an easy affair people. I know everyone likes to think they are super 1337 gamer with skillz capabale of overcoming all handicaps but it's time to come back to reality. If you are outnumbered you are going to be at a disadvantage, a severe one. 2v1 means they have 2 times your capability in that engagement and that should not always be easily overcome, revenge is a tool to help you survive long enough for help to arrive or facilitate an escape. Will it work out all the time? No, because you may have activated your revenge at a poorly chosen time or your opponents may have been a step ahead of you or you put yourself in a hard to escape position or whatever. But again it is a tool to help, not guarantee.

Not to mention some classes are specifically designed for shutting players down in these situations and such a change would immediately make them much less effective in 4v4. If you see them then you should definitely be considering if it's worth trying to stick around in a 2v1. Too many kids here want COD with swords(which is ironically what the devs reffered to the game as at some point lol). But the reality is this game requires a little more thought then just running around swords a-blazing.

I will agree that it can be frustrating if your team is not pulling their weight and leaves you constantly trying to deal with 2+v1 situations but that is a matchmaking issue just as much as it could be considered a game mechanic issue. Just remember if they had more players then you at that location then that means your team has the numbers advantage elsewhere. Not always the case due to poor matchmaking as I just said though.

+1's for revenge activation parries affecting unblockable shoves as well not sure why this isn't already a thing. This change would be a smart one and likely go a long way I think.

ArlianDeBias
05-20-2017, 10:17 AM
Unless you're saying just every player you meet in every game is somehow "bottom of the barrel", your experience doesn't match mine at all. Some games you're teamed with bad people, other games good people, and still others you're the only "bad" player. Likewise, the randomness of PUG matching works both ways, and even if my team is "bad", doesn't always mean their team is good.



My statement was more hyperbole than fact. Your experience is as anecdotal as mine.


I really gotta question selective memory. Are you people sure you're not just remembering the "worst cases" which is branded into your memory, and casually forgetting all the cases when things went well?



While a valid concept, no.


No, a lot of my assumptions are based in that "being ganked is bad for your health, whether be it your good or not". Hence, people try to avoid getting ganked, but the trick being that just avoiding fights will naturally cause your team to suffer. So every player plays trying to balance between self-preservation and the needs of the team, which is a hard task admittedly, but then so is it the same for the other team as well.



I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here.


Besides, you guys still haven't answered any of the crucial question: why now?

For a moment after v1.05 the great "bring back my revenge" complaints persisted throughout the forums, then as with all things, it went quiet. Then, suddenly, it's back on again, with many of the people using the excuse that the Cent/Shib has somehow made it worse.

Except it didn't, did it?

Like I've mentioned before, I don't use classes with easy UB spamming. For me, I'm always on the receiving end of that buggery, and nothing's changed or different at all. So clearly, my contention is using season2 and new classes as an excuse to imply somehow it got worse, is a sham. What I think, is this is simply another version of the "bring back my revenge" or "I need compensation for my bad gameplay" line of complaints against "ganking" -- which, btw, is in every MMOG up to date.

Set aside those egos and pride and stop thinking about how you're rep30 GS130+ class is being beaten by a rep0 new Cent/Shib, and basically, nothing's changed at all.



There have been two new characters released which excel in disabling other characters for a lengthy period of time. Previously, the only characters who could reliably disable repeatedly were the Shugoki and Lawbringer, and both of those characters have very obvious and telegraphed moves which are relatively easy to dodge. With the addition of the new heroes is the issue of being in a 1v3 or 1v4 situation against these characters who can repeatedly spam stuns, UB's and CC's and make it extremely hard if not impossible for anyone to skillfully fight their way out of the situation.

I'd like to literate the point very clearly: The issue is the fact that stuns, UB's (outlined in OP) and CC can be spammed by multiple enemies to prevent a player from doing anything and guarantees a kill for the enemy team. The current Revenge system only delays the inevitable death and doesn't give the user a reliable chance to counter any of aforementioned spam. The proposed changes in the OP would fix these.

Your implication that people are upset about the previous Revenge nerf and are using the new heroes as a scapegoat to complain about it again is unfounded and shows you haven't grasped the actual issue being discussed in this thread.

Edit: Just one additional thought: The core gameplay in a fighting game consists of fighting. If your only way to win is by running away, there's something wrong.

kweassa1917
05-20-2017, 10:55 AM
There have been two new characters released which excel in disabling other characters for a lengthy period of time. Previously, the only characters who could reliably disable repeatedly were the Shugoki and Lawbringer, and both of those characters have very obvious and telegraphed moves which are relatively easy to dodge. With the addition of the new heroes is the issue of being in a 1v3 or 1v4 situation against these characters who can repeatedly spam stuns, UB's and CC's and make it extremely hard if not impossible for anyone to skillfully fight their way out of the situation.

I'd like to literate the point very clearly: The issue is the fact that stuns, UB's (outlined in OP) and CC can be spammed by multiple enemies to prevent a player from doing anything and guarantees a kill for the enemy team. The current Revenge system only delays the inevitable death and doesn't give the user a reliable chance to counter any of aforementioned spam. The proposed changes in the OP would fix these.

Your implication that people are upset about the previous Revenge nerf and are using the new heroes as a scapegoat to complain about it again is unfounded and shows you haven't grasped the actual issue being discussed in this thread.

Edit: Just one additional thought: The core gameplay in a fighting game consists of fighting. If your only way to win is by running away, there's something wrong.

Well, at least you're being honest about it.

So essentially, it's another revenge/gank complaint. It's just another "I can't find myself doing anything against anyone when I'm surrounded by 3~4 guys, and I want the system to protect me against this" complaint in essence,

...which probably doesn't need to be refuted yet again, since it's been beaten to death weeks and months ago.


Besides that, I don't have much to say, since all that needs to be said has already been said like zillion times. If you can't handle the prospect of being ganked, then 4v4 just isn't for you.

Netcode_err_404
05-20-2017, 11:58 AM
I had a similiar idea. And i yes i think cc immunity would be usefull

Dizzy4213
05-20-2017, 01:44 PM
...which, IMO, is irrelvant. Honestly, regarding UB+CCs, there's nothing different.

Me I have a thing for the "underdogs" whether be it a whole faction, or a certain class. I've only played ANY class with the stupid unblockable+unparriable spams to just find out what skills they have and never as a main, nor in any kind of depth.

All my classes I've invested time into are Kensei, Raider, Shugoki, Nobushi and PK. You'll see a pattern there that except for the PK none of them are what's been considered "OP" classes (I've started Shug AFTER they fixed the OniC) and none of them have any kind of fast, reliable UB openers.

The Shug has DemE which is useless in 1v1 unless near a wall, and while it's also one of the "CC spammers" in 4v4, DemE is in no way as efficient as spamming other, less dangerous unblockable CCs. Honestly with the Shib/Cent in the roster I feel the Shugoki is now obsolete as a real "4v4 disabler", even. Besides the Shug the only class that has any "CC" is the Raider with the easily telegraphed Stampede Charge. To me, whether it's season 2 with v1.07, or before that, it's the same UB spamming lameness when trapped in 1vX scenarios. The Lawbs and their endless stamina-busting pushes and pancake flippin' that turns you over the moment you activate revenge, the Valks and their sweeps from flankside, the endless repetitions of shoulderbash into my backside... what's actually different when it's a Cent or a Shib doing it?

Nothing.


I don't know what class you play, but if you main Warlords, Conquerors, Lawbringers, Wardens, or Valkyries in 4v4, then I don't understand what your grievance is, because the chances are you've probably been doing it to someone else all along.

Or, maybe you're an "honorable player" and personally don't like that "CC-ganking" and may not do it, -- but in 4v4 you and I both know any class player that has UB+UP or UB+UP+CC they sho' gonna abuse it to kingdom come.


So I really don't understand. As a Shug/Nob/Kens/PK/Raider player, just exactly what am I supposed to be more "angry" about when it's a Cent/Shib doing the UB spamming to me, than when it's a WD/WL/LB/CQ/VK? :confused:

I'm just going to make this clear to everyone, but I have absolutely no problem with ganking. Whether you like it or not, it's something you're going to have to deal with in any team based game. Everyone can accept that. The main issue here, is the sheer amount of CC/UB spam that we see in 4v4 game modes. These moves have always been spammed, but with the release of the new heroes, especially the Centurion. It becomes clear the something needs to be done about it for the health of the game. Centurion, who isn't even classed as a 'Disabler', can stun-lock and opponent indefinitely should there be 2 or more them. You do not even have a chance to roll away. Going back to my main point, how do you fix this issue, without completely destroying those CC/UB moves in a 1v1 scenario?

My main is a Lawbringer, so I'm already used to my Revenge Shove not knocking players down because they know it's bugged and so back dash.

I also suggested that CC/UB moves, no longer knock down an opponent if you are in Revenge, to help balance the immunity that they now have. I'd also like everyone to take note, that some heroes like Kensei, Berserker, Orochi etc, do not have an unblockable/unparryable move that can be used in Revenge Mode to knock an opponent down. By making this universal change to Revenge Mode, it will make a much fair playing ground for those heroes who don't possess such moves.

I honestly don't understand what you're problem with it is. The only people I can see who would have problems with this, are those who constantly abuse such moves. For example, a Valkyrie player activates Revenge and then hits you with Shield Crush. From there, she can then proceed to 100-0 you with a heavy attack into Shield Crush again and again and there's nothing you can do about it.

Lastly, I'd also like to clarify, I don't think it would hurt to make Shugoki's Demon Embrace the only exception to this rule. Since taking it away would have a big impact on his usefulness in 4v4 Game Modes. The move is also extremely slow and telegraphed so I don't have an issue with this one being allowed.

ArlianDeBias
05-20-2017, 07:18 PM
Well, at least you're being honest about it.

So essentially, it's another revenge/gank complaint. It's just another "I can't find myself doing anything against anyone when I'm surrounded by 3~4 guys, and I want the system to protect me against this" complaint in essence,

...which probably doesn't need to be refuted yet again, since it's been beaten to death weeks and months ago.


Besides that, I don't have much to say, since all that needs to be said has already been said like zillion times. If you can't handle the prospect of being ganked, then 4v4 just isn't for you.

It's fine if you can't think of an argument to reply to me with, but you should at least be honest and say you concede the argument instead of replying with a passive aggressive post where you ignore the debate and inject your own irrelevant conclusion.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 07:21 PM
Make revenge users immune to CC?



lol never gonna happen


Revenge JUST got balanced and now you wanna make it OP again. The community never ceases to amuse me.

ArlianDeBias
05-20-2017, 07:26 PM
Make revenge users immune to CC?



lol never gonna happen


Revenge JUST got balanced and now you wanna make it OP again. The community never ceases to amuse me.

Do you actually own this game, Coyote? I'm failing to find you on fhtracker using your forum name.

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 07:47 PM
Do you actually own this game, Coyote? I'm failing to find you on fhtracker using your forum name.

He does, I don't remember what his in game name is though but someone posted it awhile back.

Pillow_Hands
05-20-2017, 07:53 PM
It has kinda always been this way though, with Warden, Warlord, and Lawbringer. I would include Valkyrie but hers also knocks down team mates, and is pretty darn slow if you don't combo it in.

Really, just don't play 4v4 unless you have some CC is the name of the game.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 07:59 PM
Do you actually own this game, Coyote? I'm failing to find you on fhtracker using your forum name.

Thats because my forum name isn't my PSN ID


And yes I do.


But what do my stats have to do with anything I have to say? Oh right! It doesn't :rolleyes:

XxHunterHxX
05-20-2017, 08:02 PM
Play 1 v 1 problem solved....

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 08:03 PM
Thats because my forum name isn't my PSN ID


And yes I do.


But what do my stats have to do with anything I have to say? Oh right! It doesn't :rolleyes:

In some instances it can but I don't think this conversation is one of them. Someones word who is terrible at this game carries less weight than someone whose great at it.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 08:05 PM
In some instances it can but I don't think this conversation is one of them. Someones word who is terrible at this game carries less weight than someone whose great at it.

Man then it sure is a good thing then that I don't care whether you people care about what I say or not.

Antonioj26
05-20-2017, 08:06 PM
Man then it sure is a good thing then that I don't care whether you people care about what I say or not.

K

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 08:09 PM
Back to the topic at hand.



CC is one of the FEW things that people can use to fight back against an aggressive Revenge user. It also helps against those people who use revenge gear so that they get it repeatedly. Keeping them down, stunned, or unable to fight is the best way to keep Revenge from wrecking your face.


To make Revenge immune to that would be absolutely ridiculous.

ArlianDeBias
05-20-2017, 08:36 PM
Back to the topic at hand.



CC is one of the FEW things that people can use to fight back against an aggressive Revenge user. It also helps against those people who use revenge gear so that they get it repeatedly. Keeping them down, stunned, or unable to fight is the best way to keep Revenge from wrecking your face.


To make Revenge immune to that would be absolutely ridiculous.

The concept of Revenge in For Honor is the ability to give someone a fighting chance in a unfair scenario. I find it hard to believe that anybody can use Revenge to 'wreck face' as you so put it, especially after the nerf to Revenge stats a few patches ago and the recent stat changes with this update. Playing aggressive while in revenge opens you up to heavy spam which will quickly put you down no matter what character you play. It's simply wrong to say that Revenge has few counters to it.

Even if what you were saying was correct and that aggressive Revenge play is powerful, which it isn't, any good player can see Revenge activation and go on the defensive for the duration of Revenge. What you're arguing for is players having the ability to spam unskillful moves at their opponent repeatedly so that they haven't got to actually play the game properly and see what their opponent is doing. It feels cheap and unfair to the person on the receiving end because no amount of skill can defeat a decent gank squad who only uses disable tactics in a team fight.

Making Revenge immune to CC would make spamming tactics much less effective and force teams to play against a Revenged carefully and skillfully in order to win. That is how the game should be played and I find it hard to believe anyone would seriously advocate for unfair gameplay mechanics in any game, let alone For Honor.


Thats because my forum name isn't my PSN ID


And yes I do.


But what do my stats have to do with anything I have to say? Oh right! It doesn't :rolleyes:

I was never going to use an argument against you using your stats if that was what you were worried about. I was simply interested in what characters someone with your opinion would play. I'm always transparent with the characters I play, I main Peacekeeper, and anyone can look me up on fhtracker to see my stats.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 08:39 PM
I was never going to use an argument against you using your stats if that was what you were worried about. I was simply wondering what characters someone with your opinion would play. I'm always transparent with the characters I play, I main Peacekeeper, and anyone can look me up on fhtracker to see my stats.

Apologies. Most people when they talk about stats use it as an excuse to disreagrd the opinion of anyone who disagrees with them.



I main Beserker, Conqueror, Shugoki, and Orochi.


I switch away from Beserker when I get bored.



As for the rest of your post Revenge is still VERY viable and I see people win 2 v 1s all the time. The only time I see spamming of CC is from the Centurian or Valkyries.


Making revenge immune to CC would only make Revenge users more wreckless and fearless than they already are.

UbiNoty
05-20-2017, 11:20 PM
Thanks for the idea and i'll bring it up with the devs to take a look at!

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 11:21 PM
Thanks for the idea and i'll bring it up with the devs to take a look at!

Please don't :(

firehead2015
05-20-2017, 11:22 PM
I like this idea

UbiNoty
05-20-2017, 11:56 PM
Please don't :(

Sorry - have to be fair about it. It's good to have a wide spectrum of opinions and suggestions in order to come up with the best solution. :D

CoyoteXStarrk
05-20-2017, 11:58 PM
Sorry - have to be fair about it. It's good to have a wide spectrum of opinions and suggestions in order to come up with the best solution. :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EkBX8a132A

Felis_Menari
05-21-2017, 02:13 AM
Considering the abundance of bashing/crowd control attacks we now have (and a weaker revenge mode), such a buff to revenge is not outside the realm of reason. This is coming from a Lawbringer who loves shutting down revengers.

Egotistic_Ez
05-21-2017, 03:04 AM
This, find it funny that some people here called this guy an idiot when he pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you can't adapt and ping for help or recognize no help may come and you would be better off retreating from the situation to do things elsewhere then that is your own fault. Outnumbered situations are not supposed to be an easy affair people.

You're adding your own spin to what kwea said. Whenever you are outnumbered he wants you to run because you deserve to lose if you don't. That's his idea of balance. Whether he is aware of it or not, Kwea wants skill removed from the game. His whole "always run if outnumbered" logic removes conflict from dominion. It would just be people running around back capping and avoiding each other all game.

kweassa1917
05-21-2017, 03:19 AM
You're adding your own spin to what kwea said. Whenever you are outnumbered he wants you to run because you deserve to lose if you don't. That's his idea of balance. Whether he is aware of it or not, Kwea wants skill removed from the game.

Er, it's your lack of skill that makes it impossible for you to fight against multiple opponents. And adding in artifical "saving grace" to protect you from normal 1v1 mechanics, to somehow become weaker when you're surrounded by 3~4 people has nothing to do with "skill" -- but rather the opposite in that you're demanding the devs implement a tool to make up for your lack of skill.

So how you even dare to use "skill" as a corny excuse for falling to classic gank-baiting like an idiot, is really beyond me. Because the "skilled" players I know don't get ganked in the first place. The dumb ones do, like the exact bunch that used to show up in forums crying day and night for them to bring ol' revenge back



His whole "always run if outnumbered" logic removes conflict from dominion. It would just be people running around back capping and avoiding each other all game.

You're welcome to stay and fight if you're skilled enough to take on multiple enemies. I know I'm not. I'm sure your handing the opponent free kills on a platter and boosting up their feat tiers and scores is somehow of superior help to the team. Me, I'd pass on that.


Like said, it's just another "I can't handle the gank! It's unfair" whiner in disguise. What else? :rolleyes:

Egotistic_Ez
05-21-2017, 04:01 AM
Er, it's your lack of skill that makes it impossible for you to fight against multiple opponents. And adding in artifical "saving grace" to protect you from normal 1v1 mechanics, to somehow become weaker when you're surrounded by 3~4 people has nothing to do with "skill"

If you look at games that have an abundance of CC (and PvP obviously) you'll notice that most of them implement a system to reduce CC effectiveness when used by multiple people. Usually it's diminished returns, sometimes it's x seconds of CC immunity, sometimes it's something else. Regardless of the solution it's pretty common for PvP games, most of which are far more competitive and better designed than For Honor, to implement something to stop stunlock bs. Now I understand you like your ability to cheese someone to death, I'm sure a lot of people do, but fact is game history has shown us that CC in team games needs controlling from time to time. The OP's suggestion is a good way to address this without nerfing CC in general use.

There's also the other issue that you seem to ignore, revenge Vs specific classes. A centurion has a far easier time dealing with revenge than most other classes, that's a legitimate balance concern. If one character could never escape gbs it would be an obvious issue, this is essentially the same.

And I ignored the rest of your post because it was just you making **** up, throwing out insults, and generally acting like a child.

kweassa1917
05-21-2017, 05:35 AM
If you look at games that have an abundance of CC (and PvP obviously) you'll notice that most of them implement a system to reduce CC effectiveness when used by multiple people. Usually it's diminished returns, sometimes it's x seconds of CC immunity, sometimes it's something else. Regardless of the solution it's pretty common for PvP games, most of which are far more competitive and better designed than For Honor, to implement something to stop stunlock bs.

You mean the games that fire off paralyze/holds that can range anywhere between 5~10 seconds from 30 feet out and drop binding magic from 50 feet away to immobilize you as they apply DoT lifedrains than stick on you for 6 seconds, and "melee" classes witj 20 feet gapclosers and 8 second slows pouncing on cloth-armor classes... like how I used to CC my target for around max 16 seconds cycling 3 different types of CCs with my Rogue in WoW before Cataclysm hit.

Sure, the basic format of the game being either a classic MOBA or RPG genre that implements a lot of fantasy aspects -- as in long range spells and CC applications -- should make use of diminishing returns, but that's not exactly how things are here in FH, is it?

The "assassins" don't operate under true invisibility and teleport to you, nor does someone leap 30 feet in one move dealing a root/immob. Every opponent moves at slightly varying running speeds, every opponent is visible, and everyone needs to get to you to be able to any CCs. Not to mention be it diminishing returns or no, anyone being caught up against 3~4 enemies is just the same dead anyway unless you're one of the escape-friendly stealth classes disappearing and running the heck away from the scene.

Do your enemies use some kind of hax to suddenly apply a barrage of CCs -- and therefore was it impossible to avoid?

Or was it entirely your own fault that got you cornered without an escape against all those CCs?




Now I understand you like your ability to cheese someone to death, I'm sure a lot of people do, but fact is game history has shown us that CC in team games needs controlling from time to time. The OP's suggestion is a good way to address this without nerfing CC in general use.

Except those ganes are all from a different genre with different and various methods of applying CCs from great distances. So if you're going to argue in mechanical comparisons, then anyone can do the same, really. They should give the assassin classes a "disappear" skill that instantly makes you invisible to both visual and target lock. I mean, all the other RPGs all have it, right?



There's also the other issue that you seem to ignore, revenge Vs specific classes. A centurion has a far easier time dealing with revenge than most other classes, that's a legitimate balance concern. If one character could never escape gbs it would be an obvious issue, this is essentially the same.

Again it always comes to a full circle.

Clearly you don't mean you can't escape GBs in a 1v1 situation, because even with my slow reflexes I can manage that against a Cent, so it's gotta be about being surrounded.

So what got you into that situation in the first place? Honor? :rolleyes:




And I ignored the rest of your post because it was just you making **** up, throwing out insults, and generally acting like a child.

Says the ****** who started the whole conversation with "you're an idiot". ROFL :rolleyes:

Besides, nothing I said is "made up". You're just a remnant of the old revenge/gank whiners who managed to stay quiet for the time being, but saw on opportunity with the Cent/Shib hate-wagon and decided to paint this up as a legit criticism to a new class balance problem.

Except, like said, we've all been through the same thing before 1.07. Didn't see you complaining then. So whatsa matter? Some Cent/Shib give a taste of your own medicine? :D

Egotistic_Ez
05-21-2017, 06:47 AM
I saw you mention something that I know WoW has, I'm now going to go on an off topic rant for five paragraphs except for one decent point which I'll repeat below.

Except those ganes are all from a different genre with different and various methods of applying CCs from great distances. So if you're going to argue in mechanical comparisons, then anyone can do the same, really. They should give the assassin classes a "disappear" skill that instantly makes you invisible to both visual and target lock. I mean, all the other RPGs all have it, right?

Something incomprehensible about gb.

lolz you must be old revenge player or gank squad lolz you lose to new characters?

I summarised your post a bit to save space, but it gets across the same points.

You're right that a lot of the games with cc counter mechanics are different genres and have different skills (primary difference being range) but the logic still applies. Yes, the games are very different, but the root issue is not. Losing control of your character then instantly dying is bad design and simply not fun. The odds may be borderline insurmountable, but the chance to fight back needs to be there, even if you realistically can't win. The best way to do that, imo, is with the OP's idea.

And I was going to reply to your "didn't see you complaining then" jab, but after reading it several times I still can't understand what you're trying to say. It's like you're just throwing words at the screen and hoping it'll make sense.