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View Full Version : What if light attacks couldn't be parried



The_Helhound
05-19-2017, 04:28 PM
Pretty simple concept, make it so light attacks aren't parried. I actually think this was part of the initial idea, light attacks being quick safe ways to trade with your opponents until you create an opening. You swing and if blocked reflect and now your opponent has the offense. Then people learned how to parry light attacks and the turtle meta was born. Believe it or not this system is in game but you'll get parried before you see it. Right now actually attacking is completely out of the question. You either feint bait which does not happen often, or your opponent fails a GB. Classes like warden with other options to crack the shell are considered strong, alongside warlords that excel at the turtle meta. Classes like raider and kensai are tiered much lower as they have no real way to open up your average parry seeker without immediately getting punished. But institute a triangle system and you now have a reason to be on offense. You can't parry light atttacks, you block them to take initiative. You parry heavy attacks, because blocking causes some damage still and keeps you off balance. You counter guardbreak, a throw system present in every fighting game ever. When light attacks are safe then there is no reason not to take the offense. The worst that occurs is you get put into defense and then your opponent and you trade blows and maneuvers, mixing in their respective movesets to punish mistakes and capitalize on their strengths. But it brings back the trading blows, anything to break up the tedium of staring at your opponent for 3 minutes at a time.

pure_energist
05-19-2017, 04:44 PM
Pretty simple concept, make it so light attacks aren't parried. I actually think this was part of the initial idea, light attacks being quick safe ways to trade with your opponents until you create an opening. You swing and if blocked reflect and now your opponent has the offense. Then people learned how to parry light attacks and the turtle meta was born. Believe it or not this system is in game but you'll get parried before you see it. Right now actually attacking is completely out of the question. You either feint bait which does not happen often, or your opponent fails a GB. Classes like warden with other options to crack the shell are considered strong, alongside warlords that excel at the turtle meta. Classes like raider and kensai are tiered much lower as they have no real way to open up your average parry seeker without immediately getting punished. But institute a triangle system and you now have a reason to be on offense. You can't parry light atttacks, you block them to take initiative. You parry heavy attacks, because blocking causes some damage still and keeps you off balance. You counter guardbreak, a throw system present in every fighting game ever. When light attacks are safe then there is no reason not to take the offense. The worst that occurs is you get put into defense and then your opponent and you trade blows and maneuvers, mixing in their respective movesets to punish mistakes and capitalize on their strengths. But it brings back the trading blows, anything to break up the tedium of staring at your opponent for 3 minutes at a time.

I'm trying to see how this would unbalance any character and atm I can't come up with a good reason this wouldn't be a good change.. The Developers said they are working on the turtle meta and this very well may be something they are testing.... * fingers crossed* The fact that people have to actually pay attention to the kind of strikes being made SHOULD be how this game is played... currently It doesn't matter what strike is being thrown if a person's reaction time is fast enough they can attempt to parry all incoming indicators... there needs to be a more effective parry attempt punish and making it so light attacks are not parried would mean we have to learn animations and sound cues to know when to attempt a parry... This would mean Parries in general would be much less common and the heavy punishes from being parried less common.. On PS4 this isn't as much an issue since console players have more difficulty reacting, yet still it can happen, especially with the characters that have slower light attacks.

Blasto95
05-19-2017, 04:50 PM
They dont need to get rid of parrying light attacks...They need to get rid of all the free damage you get from any parry. Obviously there needs to be some advantage to parrying over just blocking. But free Heavies and GBs galore is not the answer.

Personally I dont mind a free heavy off a light parry. Thats pretty challenging (at least on console) plenty of people mess it up and are punished for it.
But why get free GBs off a heavy parry. It can be SO EASY and its so rewarding. Just off the top of my head, Heavy Parry = Free light, Light Parry = Free Heavy.
Only problem I see with that are heroes like Orochi or Shinobi that get guaranteed second lights.

The_Helhound
05-19-2017, 05:00 PM
Its important to remember risk verse reward here. The reason I mention no parry light but parry heavy is fine is that failure to parry a light isnt punishing just block or parry the next attack in the chain and most of the time lights don't hurt that bad. Failure to parry a heavy can be extremely costly. Don't believe me eat a charged heavy into centurion knock down for the ground stab. Try and fail to parry that and you will straight up die. Or have a raider drop two heavies on you and regardless of whether or not you blocked his attack, his unblockable gets stronger the further in his chain its used. Eat a third chain hit unblockable from a raider because you failed to parry, or get the hell outta the way, and it's a one shot kill. So yea, free GB from a parried heavy seems fine considering it pretty much matches risk to reward. There is never a moment where a parried light matches risk to reward its always more rewarding.

pure_energist
05-19-2017, 05:04 PM
They dont need to get rid of parrying light attacks...They need to get rid of all the free damage you get from any parry. Obviously there needs to be some advantage to parrying over just blocking. But free Heavies and GBs galore is not the answer.

Personally I dont mind a free heavy off a light parry. Thats pretty challenging (at least on console) plenty of people mess it up and are punished for it.
But why get free GBs off a heavy parry. It can be SO EASY and its so rewarding. Just off the top of my head, Heavy Parry = Free light, Light Parry = Free Heavy.
Only problem I see with that are heroes like Orochi or Shinobi that get guaranteed second lights.

I think the Heavy Parry Punish is correct... You attempt to land Heavy damaging attack on me.. why shouldn't my answer be a heavy damage attack on you... Basically Heavy attacks shouldn't be thrown out with reckless abandon..... BY removing Light Parries we force players to also not always attempt to parry Heavy attacks.. they have to LEARN which attacks are heavy and which are light... MOST the time this might be obvious, but its enough to make a person second guess their decision to just go for the Parry right away.. With this implemented we'd see a lot of missed parry attempts and people would eventually stop being over reliant on parry or at least be more thoughtful on when it may be safe attempt. Currently With Feinting you can attempt to bait a parry, but the person that fell for it can also cancel their parry... With this they would definitely be punished in their attempt because the light would land before they could cancel and block.

The_Helhound
05-19-2017, 08:17 PM
Truth be told I've never met a player who didn't like the idea of light attacks being unparriable. Made it a point one day to ask every single person I dueled, fighting someone different every match, and they all unanimously agreed. There was some question as to whether this would make nobushi op but even he agreed the same basic method to beating her applied. So I don't know if anyone on the development team reads these threads, or how I could get a poll to support my claim with enough numbers for the team to pay the **** attention to the community, but for the sake of this outstanding game I sincerely hope someone catches wind or has already thought of this. There's no way so simple and logical a fix passed everyone by.

Titanodragon
05-19-2017, 08:41 PM
On console, it's really hard to party lights from pk and shinobi. If you couldn't parry them it would be the light spam would never stop.

Sir_rage_quit
05-19-2017, 08:46 PM
PK and shinobi will rule over the For honor land

Vingrask
05-19-2017, 08:53 PM
The parry problem is because the free GB. Remove it and the fights can flow.

Try play you without GB after a parry. Try different follow-ups and see for yourself how the fight can be more fun and challenging.
Attack without the high danger of being parried and throwed against a wall or over a cliff is damn refreshing and give you a great confidence. Parry should since day zero be just a momentum switcher, not a guaranteed way to win matches.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
05-19-2017, 09:18 PM
I'm just thinking how the Nobushi will be considered the most OP character in game. She would have an unpunishable kit, due to her long range, elusiveness on block, and huge array of lights. Parries are the only way I even can close the distance with her.

Just take away the free GB on parry, and there goes most free damage

Titanodragon
05-19-2017, 09:30 PM
I don't think I'm terrible at blocking. But I assume you don't play on console do you?

The_Helhound
05-19-2017, 09:39 PM
The nobushi is a good point one I argued for a while with another. We came to the conclusion that nobushi is made more elusive but you yourself can be much more aggressive. Remember she can no longer parry many of the gap closers in game now. She does possess one of the few on light block recoveries but she still is highly telegraphed, still narrow attack pattern, still just as vulnerable at arms reach and dodging. If parry was her only weakness she'd be objectively broken. The parry vulnerability is a by product of the turtle meta. Free damage for a successful HEAVY parry is a good thing....feel like I'm beating a dead horse on that one but risk vs reward again.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
05-19-2017, 09:51 PM
The nobushi is a good point one I argued for a while with another. We came to the conclusion that nobushi is made more elusive but you yourself can be much more aggressive. Remember she can no longer parry many of the gap closers in game now. She does possess one of the few on light block recoveries but she still is highly telegraphed, still narrow attack pattern, still just as vulnerable at arms reach and dodging. If parry was her only weakness she'd be objectively broken. The parry vulnerability is a by product of the turtle meta. Free damage for a successful HEAVY parry is a good thing....feel like I'm beating a dead horse on that one but risk vs reward again.

Well, if parry was her only weakness she'd be SUBJECTIVELY broken to you, but SUBJECTIVELY vulnerable to me. Some characters, such as Big Shug, Warlord, Cent and LB, would have no way to close the distance against her in a safe fashion, once again putting her defence at the advantage...Again.

All she would need to do is kite them, and wait for them to throw a risky heavy. Boom, she becomes the defence meta.

The_Helhound
05-19-2017, 10:09 PM
Shugoki has several charge moves and the ability to tank and trade her hits though I admit not a favorable matchup. The lb has an uninterruptible shove that will track her through her back step and closes distance quite easily. Triggers off every light block. Warlord has about a half dozen counters that track through her back step not least of which being his legendary headbut or his sword and board strike. All of which trigger off his universal block. Warlord does not trade poorly at all. Centurion has the ability to rapid close distance with his kick which leads into free damage combo, or by varying his heavy attacks either the first or second strike into a charge up one of which is unblockable. The centurion can close the distance and the kick can trigger with priority off a light block. All this considered though centurion like shugoki probably not a favorable match up. Her kite is really not that strong in the current meta let alone when it becomes safer to rush her. But each character already has characters they struggle against its not a perfect balance. Gotta take steps towards that balance though and fixing parry would be a great start.

psyminion
05-19-2017, 10:39 PM
I agree parrying lights shouldn't be a mechanic, they should only be blockable.

the reward of a gb-heavy for a light parry is silly, and it's a pace-breaker. that being said the flicker bug and the speed of some heroes light attacks should also be adjusted to keep things dynamic.

The_Helhound
05-19-2017, 10:40 PM
I don't think I'm terrible at blocking. But I assume you don't play on console do you?

Earlier post seems to have vanished for some reason in regards to PK, Shinobi light attack spam so ill make this quick. Probably came across as brazen to say that inability to beat spam is most often tied to ineffective blocking. More specifically what I meant was that in order to parry your guard must be in the direction of the attack and then you heavy attack at the moment of impact. Removing parry on light does not in any way affect your ability to get your guard in place as per the first step. Thats the reason why I said it primarily tied to ineffective blocking. All it does is prevent you from abusing the parry system to discourage her from attacking at all. Instead you block her and steal the initiative to attack if you blocked her and if she blocks you she may resume her assault.