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S0Mi_xD
05-18-2017, 01:25 PM
So, i have a question about this stat, because currently i work on my stat table and my gear.
Today i saw that eric.pope posted the explaination for the Stats ... and i am afraid you messed this stat up.

Defense Penetration

- Defense Penetration allows your Hero's Attacks to ignore an amount of the enemy Hero’s Defense when attacking them.
- Your Hero ignores as much of the opponent’s Defense as the value of the Defense Penetration is.

So my question is, does it work like Quotation 1. or 2.?
EDIT: I added a 3. Quotation - in this one i calculate both ways and show that 2. Quotation would make much more sense.

1. Quotation

The DEFpen values seem to be a bit problematic, and now I understand why people have been observing that the incoming damage is much higher than before, and say that DEF was nerfed.

According to this wonderful spreadsheet information, @lv21 your max DEF bonus is 14.1%, which a sum of DEF values combined from 3 pieces of gear. The problem is, from just 1 piece of gear, the "best" values for DEFpen is at 16.9%, and the "2nd" value is 12.7%. I recall someone mentioning the devs have said in a stream that DEFpen directly counteracts DEF in an additivie/subtractive way.. which means a single piece of gear that's set to either highest, or 2nd highest DEFpen stat will effectively nullify the result of 3 armor pieces invested for "best" DEF stats.

To demonstrate, using my theoretic DMG calculation equation (not proved yet)...

● FINAL DMG = BASE DMG x {1 + (ATT - (DEF - DEFpen))}

So let's assume some different situations:

Situation 1
Variables
● 3 pieces invested to max ATT = +18.3%
● DEFpen at 'worst' = -16.9%
● target has max DEF = 14.1%

▶ Attacker hits target wit 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.183 - (0.141 - (-0.169))) = 50 x (1 - 0.127) = 43.65
▶ Even with MAX attack, if your DEFpen is negative, then you deal less damage than base damage.
▶ If worst DEFpen = Max ATT < Max DEF

Situation 2
Variables
● 3 pieces invested to max ATT = +18.3%
● DEFpen at '2nd' = 12.7%
● target has max DEF = 14.1%

▶ Attacker hits target wit 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.183 - (0.141 - (0.127))) = 50 x (1 - 0.127) = 50.7
▶ With MAX attack and 2nd level DEFpen, then your damage is similar to base damage.
▶ If 2nd DEFpen = Max ATT = Max DEF

Situation 3
Variables
● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
● target has max DEF = 14.1%

▶ Attacker hits target wit 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.171 - (0.141 - 0.169)) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0) = 58.55
▶ With MAX DEFpen and two max ATT pieces, then your damage is higher than base damage.
▶ If MAX DEFpen = MAX DEFpen > Max DEF

There's no reason to go max ATT gear. max DEF will always sufficiently negate it. But even if you don't go for all 3 weapons for max ATT, and you go for two max ATT and 1 max DEFpen, then that still beats 3 pieces of max DEF easily. My DMG equation isn't proved and its only a theory, but as long as the relative variables and how they work remain similar, then the relative results will also be similar.

DEFpen is the way to go. There's no situation 3 x ATT piece would outperform a 2 x ATT piece plus 1 x max DEFpen setting... besides, the DEFpen value also (most probably) directly negates revenge DEF value as well. Basically, max DEFpen is the new "must" stat, because however your opponent wraps himself in armor, your max DEFpen will always make sure that it's still about as effective as fighting naked.

(ps) Well, I have a guess as to when the "3 x maxATT" setting would outperform a "2 x maxATT / 1 x maxDEFpen" setting... my guess is if your target has very low ~ negative defense values, then against that person your 3 piece maxATT setting will deal bigger damage... but honestly, who'd eveyr roll with a super-low defense setting in the first place?

2. Quotation

Nice math done here.

I thought about this issue as well, and we still don't know how Def Pen works for sure.

First way like you theorie says:

Def - Def Pen = End Def

I don't belive it works like this because:
A: It would make Defence Useless
B: Devs stated, that Def Pen will affect Players with more Def much more, than with less Def.

Because of B: i think Def Penetration will work more like this:
(Also Def Pen will be calculated BEFOR ATK and DEF apply)

Def -(Def x Def Pen) = End Def / effective Def

Example:
You have Max Def Pen 16,9% against Max Def 14,1% - so it would be multiplicated.

Def Penetraton affecting:
14,1 * 16,9% = 2,3829 ~ 2,4

14,1 - 2,4 = 11,7 % A: 11,7 Def would be the defense which will affect the DMG

Lets take the Def of an MAX balance build against a Max Def Pen:

6,9 - (6,9 * 16,9% = 1,1661 ~ 1,2) = 5,7 End Def.

And Max DEF Revenge:

20,6 - (20,6 * 16,9% = 3,4814 ~3,5) = 17,1 End Def

This way would be much more logical, and i assume Ubi has some intellegent people there.

Pls don't say it is the first one .... this would make Defense useless .....

2. Quotation

As i think about def penetration it would only affect postive defense (because negativ defense would imply that you have no defense to "penetrate")

But ok ....

It would be really stupid this way, because everybody would use Def Penetration (except those who don't really know how it works)
But Def Pen would be a MUST stat.
The probleme is IF Def Pen really works like (a), it would make Def Stat and Revenge Def USELESS (like you say aswell)

The max def on max lvl gear is 15,4%
And the max def pen on max lvl gear would be around 18%....

If Ubi would be really that stupid to make it work like this .....

Also if it really would be like this:
Variables
● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
● target has min DEF = -18.9%

▶ Attacker hits target with 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - 0.169)) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0) = 58.55

It would make no sense, because what if you have Neg. Def and just the lowest def pen (from balanced stat), and don't forget negative Def Pen.
- Def -18,9%
- Def Pen of 8,5%
- neg Def Pen of - 16,9%

So if it really would work like this (i heard it aswell on the dev stream, that they said something like it will got to zero):
1. -18,9% - (+ 8,5%) = 0
2. -18,9% -(-16,9) = 0
Do you really think it could work like this? This would defy any sense of logic.

It would be, if it really is additive and subtractive, like this:
50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - 0.169)) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0.358 ) = 76,45

And now with neg. Def Pen:
50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - (-0.169))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0.02) = 59,55

And now assume it would work like (b) the way i think it should work:
Variables
● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
● target has MAX DEF = 14,1%

50 x (1 + (0.171 - (0,141 - (0,141 * 0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(0,141 - 0,024))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0,117 )) = 52,7

Variables
● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
● DEFpen negative = -16.9%
● target has MAX DEF = 14,1%

50 x (1 + (0.171 - (0,141 - (0,141 * -0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(0,141 + 0,024 ))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0,165 )) = 50,3

Variables
● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
● target has neg DEF = -18.9%

50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - (-0,189 * 0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(- 0,189 - 0,032 ))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0,221 )) = 69,6

Variables
● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
● DEFpen negative = -16.9%
● target has neg DEF = -18.9%

50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - (-0,189 * -0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(- 0,189 + 0,032 ))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0,157 )) = 66,4

SanaMinatozaki-
05-18-2017, 02:16 PM
omg i am going to have a headache... so def pen better than attack?

Vordred
05-18-2017, 02:44 PM
yeah there needs to be come clarification on how def pen really works

Kurem92
05-18-2017, 02:48 PM
I dont know if how you are using the attack value in your equation is correct, but i can tell you quotation 1 is absolutely right about def penetration. Your rival defense will always be his defense value minus your def pen value, but the result can never be below 0. At May 4th Warriors den Damien explains it (exactly 30:00 minutes into the video in Twitch).

Draghmar
05-18-2017, 02:48 PM
I'd go with 1 because I remember they said on stream that whatever you put in DEFpen lowers DEF up to min 0 DEF.

FRAKTICA
05-18-2017, 02:58 PM
We should not have to guess at what these various attributes mean!

The intricacies of building kits for our characters must be more obvious or it is a complete waste of time. ESPECIALLY, since the recent changes, while perhaps needed, eliminated all value from my 30+ already obtained/purchased max level gear. I sure hope they give me value for my material and steel investments when I dismantle what was at one time the best gear money could buy (I had all possible stat combinations on max gear for my main) so I am a bit perturbed by it being instantaneously made worthless by UBI!

I am not going to make the investment in time and money to again have everything I desire for my main until they make clear what this ambiguous crap they spew actually means!

MumfordDaHound
05-18-2017, 03:12 PM
Maybe this is their way to counter the defensive meta? Everyone will have zero defense and +attack. So its like dual mode wuth more damage being done.

Dizzy4213
05-18-2017, 03:17 PM
Ever since this stat was announced, I knew something like this would happen.

It just confuses me why we needed such a stat in the first place. The attack stat should be the direct counter to the defence stat, not defence penetration. All they needed to do was buff the attack stat to make it on par with the defence stat. In Season 1, max defence was +30%, while max attack was +20%.

Captain-Courage
05-18-2017, 03:23 PM
Maybe this is their way to counter the defensive meta? Everyone will have zero defense and +attack. So its like dual mode wuth more damage being done.

Which will make people turtle even more to have an opportunity to apply guaranteed damage, instead of sometimes trying to take the initiative while being somewhat "forgiven" by the def stats in case of failed attempt ...

S0Mi_xD
05-18-2017, 03:23 PM
I edited the Main Post, look into it again!

MumfordDaHound
05-18-2017, 03:33 PM
Which will make people turtle even more to have an opportunity to apply guaranteed damage, instead of sometimes trying to take the initiative while being somewhat "forgiven" by the def stats in case of failed attempt ...
Well there is talk of chip damage too, so that with no defense we will all drop faster. Maybe you'll have to choose between block damage and def pen?

Captain-Courage
05-18-2017, 03:37 PM
Well there is talk of chip damage too, so that with no defense we will all drop faster. Maybe you'll have to choose between block damage and def pen?

Depends on how much the block damage stat has really been reworked.
It was totally useless (be it block damage or block damage resist) in its first iteration, and def pen seems far more desirable in the current setup.

Gray360UK
05-18-2017, 03:53 PM

Isn't Defense Pen a gamble, because if they have little to no Defense or even minus Defense then it is wasted and 3x max Attack items would be better?

There's a comment above that suggests 2 max Attack and 1 max Defense Penetration always beats 3x max Attack, but that isn't going to be the case vs a no Defense opponent, surely? The same as Block Damage does nothing for you if your opponent doesn't block anything.

Both are situational, dependant on what your opponent has / does, I would assume.

Also, do we know if a % increase / decrease in your stat is the same as a direct % increase / decrease in the game, or does a 10% increase in a certain stat give a fixed static gain amount of damage increase or damage reduction, i.e. does 10% extra attack stat make you do 2 more damage, always, or is it actually 10% extra of your base damage.

How much damage does Block damage do in the first place? A % of your normal attack or a static amount like 2, and then does -50% block damage mean you only do 1.

They said the old bars were only visual representations of the scale of the increase, not a direct % increase, i.e. having your attack bar double did not mean you did double damage.

Xinlyfenne
05-18-2017, 03:54 PM
I watched the VOD.

- If the enemy had 20% defense, and you had 15% defense pen., that would mean their defense would be 5%.

- Defense pen. cannot over limit. Meaning it cannot go past 0% def.

I'm not sure if attack is affected by negative defense or not, however.
Based on previous stats, I would say yes, it is affected.

Plutonium Bug
05-18-2017, 03:56 PM
But to be honest the 3rd seems to fit the bill [B]but [B] we should test this.
I probably don't have enough time tonight but I have a warden with max def pen and max negative def pen all I need now is a person with max def and max negative defence.
Then record the damage from the hits and see what it says on the screen.
so max pen vs max def and max neg def
and neg pen vs max def and max neg def
I think if we try this we should be able to figure it out

Gray360UK
05-18-2017, 03:56 PM
I watched the VOD.

- If the enemy had 20% defense, and you had 15% defense pen., that would mean their defense would be 5%.

- Defense pen. cannot over limit. Meaning it cannot go past 0% def.

I'm not sure if attack is affected by negative defense or not, however.

So no one will have Defense as long as you have a good Defense Pen stat?

Xinlyfenne
05-18-2017, 03:58 PM
So no one will have Defense as long as you have a good Defense Pen stat?

Yes, according to what the Devs said.

kweassa1917
05-18-2017, 03:59 PM

Isn't Defense Pen a gamble, because if they have little to no Defense or even minus Defense then it is wasted and 3x max Attack items would be better?

There's a comment above that suggests 2 max Attack and 1 max Defense Penetration always beats 3x max Attack, but that isn't going to be the case vs a no Defense opponent, surely? The same as Block Damage does nothing for you if your opponent doesn't block anything.

Both are situational, dependant on what your opponent has / does, I would assume.

Also, do we know if a % increase / decrease in your stat is the same as a direct % increase / decrease in the game, or does a 10% increase in a certain stat give a fixed static gain amount of damage increase or damage reduction, i.e. does 10% extra attack stat make you do 2 more damage, always, or is it actually 10% extra of your base damage.

How much damage does Block damage do in the first place? A % of your normal attack or a static amount like 2, and then does -50% block damage mean you only do 1.

They said the old bars were only visual representations of the scale of the increase, not a direct % increase, i.e. having your attack bar double did not mean you did double damage.

By my calculations, it's not a gamble because...

(a) max DEFpen setting gives you highest expected damage out of all combinations
(b) if you have little to no DEF, the only "upside" is that you're not damaged more heavily than max DEFpen, but still receive as much damage
(c) there's no real combat advantage to gain that can compare and stand up to max DEFpen attack setting, if you're not using DEF stats.

MumfordDaHound
05-18-2017, 04:32 PM
This all seems to have gotten WAY more complicated then it needs to be... C'mon Ubisoft!

Scotti_Chill
05-18-2017, 05:24 PM
I feel dizzy after all this math...and still I have no fricking clue what this stat actually does...

Gray360UK
05-18-2017, 05:37 PM
(a) max DEFpen setting gives you highest expected damage out of all combinations

How does max Def Pen help me against an opponent who has no Defense, there is nothing for me to penetrate, right? Surely at least in that instance I am going to do more damage with 3x max attack? Defense can only go to 0. If it is already 0 because they are a no Defense character, 3x max attack is going to hurt them more, no? If they are very low Defense as well, then it's got to be close as to whether the little bit of Defense you remove is worth more than the extra attack you will do, would think it's about equal in that case.

So that's 2 combinations where max Attack would be better / equal, as far as I see it.

SanaMinatozaki-
05-18-2017, 05:51 PM

Gray360UK
05-18-2017, 05:55 PM

Those are simple black and white choices.

Do you want to do more damage all the time, out of Revenge, against every opponent you face. Or do you want to do more damage when in Revenge Mode only. You can of course have both of these positive and just have Revenge Mode Duration low, which is what I think is the best choice. For me, powerful Revenge that doesn't last very long is better than weaker Revenge that lasts longer, but that's just me :)

UbiNoty
05-19-2017, 01:06 AM
I don't know the exact formulas they're using either and I've asked if the team can release them - so hopefully if they do we'll be able to get some clarification on the gear stats.

Plutonium Bug
05-19-2017, 09:01 AM
well guys I have done some testing just to see how important Def pen is.
And the results are....
Really f*ing important.
Setup was a conq with +12% def
1st go +16% def pen
2nd go -16% def pen
I was playing warden and with +16% it took 4 top heavys and 1 light to kill the conq.
-16% it took 6! top heavys and a light.

so invest in def pen that is all you need to know guys!

See you on the battlefield

S0Mi_xD
05-19-2017, 10:45 AM
I don't know the exact formulas they're using either and I've asked if the team can release them - so hopefully if they do we'll be able to get some clarification on the gear stats.
Thanks for the reply :) - i am looking forward to it, but i am really afraid that Def Penetration will play a much to high roll.

well guys I have done some testing just to see how important Def pen is.
And the results are....
Really f*ing important.
Setup was a conq with +12% def
1st go +16% def pen
2nd go -16% def pen
I was playing warden and with +16% it took 4 top heavys and 1 light to kill the conq.
-16% it took 6! top heavys and a light.

so invest in def pen that is all you need to know guys!

See you on the battlefield

Thanks for this info - yeah thats what i fear, it looks like it is a major Stat, and if it really calculates addetive and sutractive like in the first Quotation i posted, the most viable stat combination of weapon 1 will be:
1. Attack - Second highest
2. Def penetraion - Highest
3. Block Dmg - worst