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Sykobox
05-18-2017, 07:50 AM
As a lawbringer main (ps4), I'm absolutely sick of Orochis and Berserker spins. I can watch my polearm go through them as they spin, take no damage, and hit me repeatedly. It's the most broken mechanic in all the heroes. Especially for us slower heroes. It's a hard counter. If you don't parry it, you're screwed.

The vast majority of assassin's spam this knowing it's really difficult to counter. The vast majority of the player base plays these heroes for this reason. It's not skillful. It's not a combo. It can be spammed repeatedly with a low probability of punishment as its hard to parry such a fast attack.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 07:54 AM
As a Beserker main since the closed Beta I can tell you that you just aren't good lol


95% of my spins are blocked or parried and I am hoping for a block so I can just go into my Heavy Mix-up combo and even THEN I have a stupidly high chance of being blocked or parried. Then after my combo is done or I am parried I have little to no stamina and I get pooped on almost immediately.


Trust the spins are NOT OP. The fact that they are being parried and blocked with such ease is why I started playing the Raider, Shugoki and the Orochi. That way I had other classes to play after I got pissed on my Zerker.


You need to learn to look at the red flashes and parry.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:09 AM
As a Beserker main since the closed Beta I can tell you that you just aren't good lol


95% of my spins are blocked or parried and I am hoping for a block so I can just go into my Heavy Mix-up combo and even THEN I have a stupidly high chance of being blocked or parried. Then after my combo is done or I am parried I have little to no stamina and I get pooped on almost immediately.


Trust the spins are NOT OP. The fact that they are being parried and blocked with such ease is why I started playing the Raider, Shugoki and the Orochi. That way I had other classes to play after I got pissed on my Zerker.


You need to learn to look at the red flashes and parry.

I have a 3.1KD average. I don't know how you define "good." But, I've played Orochis and I can spam the spin and kill 80% of players with that attack alone.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 08:13 AM
I have a 3.1KD average. I don't know how you define "good." But, I've played Orochis and I can spam the spin and kill 80% of players with that attack alone.

1) Stats can be padded so they are meaningless.

2) Just because you get kills with something does not make that something OP. It just means you are getting kills against bad players. Especially in this case considering the move is telegraphed and easily avoided.


There is a reason why the spins haven't been touched in any real way since the Game first hit the Beta stage. Its because the data and overall players experience shows that the spins on their own are balanced.

CeIasun
05-18-2017, 08:15 AM
As a lawbringer main (ps4), I'm absolutely sick of Orochis and Berserker spins. I can watch my polearm go through them as they spin, take no damage, and hit me repeatedly. It's the most broken mechanic in all the heroes. Especially for us slower heroes. It's a hard counter. If you don't parry it, you're screwed.

The vast majority of assassin's spam this knowing it's really difficult to counter. The vast majority of the player base plays these heroes for this reason. It's not skillful. It's not a combo. It can be spammed repeatedly with a low probability of punishment as its hard to parry such a fast attack.

Pls shut up, didn't hear you complaining when you got your Buffs one Patch ago. PLS say being a LB is so skill full? Your guys are more often enoying then fun. You got so much HP compaired to the Assasin classes and your still complaining? What a Joke

SnugglesIV
05-18-2017, 08:18 AM
As a lawbringer main (ps4), I'm absolutely sick of Orochis and Berserker spins. I can watch my polearm go through them as they spin, take no damage, and hit me repeatedly. It's the most broken mechanic in all the heroes. Especially for us slower heroes. It's a hard counter. If you don't parry it, you're screwed.

The vast majority of assassin's spam this knowing it's really difficult to counter. The vast majority of the player base plays these heroes for this reason. It's not skillful. It's not a combo. It can be spammed repeatedly with a low probability of punishment as its hard to parry such a fast attack.

Dude, both of their dodge attacks are free parries into Blind Justice for you. They are so easy to parry... Learn to adapt your play style.

Herbstlicht
05-18-2017, 08:21 AM
This funny "spin" is what makes those classes "counter attackers". It is integral to their kit. It only works if they evade you. Even Kensei has it. Do you say Kensei is OP?

Honestly, if there is something about Berserker that might make you think this guy really can deliver, it is his damage. But that only happens when you get outplayed. Not saying Berserker is bad or needs infinite skill to shine, but he is sure far away from op. Besides, I really wonder how Zerkers do vs the new cast. Don't think they like Centurion. Maybe Shinobi is ok for them, can in perfect circumstances be oneshot, at least in dominion ^^

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:23 AM
Pls shut up, didn't hear you complaining when you got your Buffs one Patch ago. PLS say being a LB is so skill full? Your guys are more often enoying then fun. You got so much HP compaired to the Assasin classes and your still complaining? What a Joke

The buffs for lawbringer were necessary. The lawbringer is still underperforming which is why there is only a handful of top players that main them. Lawbringers, against good players, can never land a heavy attack. Our attacks are so slow. We basically have to rely on shove and light attacks to slowly work our opponents down.

Try a lawbringer. I guarantee you can't do what you can do on an assassin

Knight_Raime
05-18-2017, 08:24 AM
dash attacks are meant to punish poor play. If you want to get better in this game you'll need to learn how to feint bait and parry. If not just stick to 4v4. it's super imbalanced and super casual. anyone who's even half decent at holding a controller can do alright there. Otherwise learn things besides blocking and attacking.

CeIasun
05-18-2017, 08:28 AM
The buffs for lawbringer were necessary. The lawbringer is still underperforming which is why there is only a handful of top players that main them. Lawbringers, against good players, can never land a heavy attack. Our attacks are so slow. We basically have to rely on shove and light attacks to slowly work our opponents down.

Try a lawbringer. I guarantee you can't do what you can do on an assassin

I dont mind you LB got a Buff( It was kinda to much in my opinion). but basicly he is TOP tier now. People just need to stop complaining about nerf vs classes they have trouble with. Don't you think my main doesn't got any trouble vs other Hero's. Ask UBISOFT for bufs and beter preforming mechanic's in game and adding more usefull skills to all hero's instead of complaining. That's my point. on the end of the road people complain how certain hero's ''SPAM''. This because lack of usefull skills in there kit.

Yeah I looked at LB sorry not my style. Like to play more in an active role.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:30 AM
This funny "spin" is what makes those classes "counter attackers". It is integral to their kit. It only works if they evade you. Even Kensei has it. Do you say Kensei is OP?

Honestly, if there is something about Berserker that might make you think this guy really can deliver, it is his damage. But that only happens when you get outplayed. Not saying Berserker is bad or needs infinite skill to shine, but he is sure far away from op. Besides, I really wonder how Zerkers do vs the new cast. Don't think they like Centurion. Maybe Shinobi is ok for them, can in perfect circumstances be oneshot, at least in dominion ^^

I recognize that the spin is necessary to the overall assassin theme and their kit. I didn't mention Kensei because Kensei does not possess the speed of berserker and especially Orochi.

As a lawbringer the only possible way to beat an Orochi or Berserker is through guard break or parry. Offensive is not a possibility against these heroes. Try out a lawbringer and watch your polearm go through your target when they spin. It's ridiculous and common. The spin should not be a guaranteed evade, especially against long weapons like my polearm.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 08:32 AM
I recognize that the spin is necessary to the overall assassin theme and their kit. I didn't mention Kensei because Kensei does not possess the speed of berserker and especially Orochi.

As a lawbringer the only possible way to beat an Orochi or Berserker is through guard break or parry. Offensive is not a possibility against these heroes. Try out a lawbringer and watch your polearm go through your target when they spin. It's ridiculous and common. The spin should not be a guaranteed evade, especially against long weapons like my polearm.

Its not the spin that grants the evade. Its the dodge.


Thats why your polearm goes through EVERYONE that dodges.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:34 AM
I dont mind you LB got a Buff( It was kinda to much in my opinion). but basicly he is TOP tier now. People just need to stop complaining about nerf vs classes they have trouble with. Don't you think my main doesn't got any trouble vs other Hero's. Ask UBISOFT for bufs and beter preforming mechanic's in game and adding more usefull skills to all hero's instead of complaining. That's my point. on the end of the road people complain how certain hero's ''SPAM''. This because lack of usefull skills in there kit.

Yeah I looked at LB sorry not my style. Like to play more in an active role.

LB'S are not top tier. There's a variety of videos of well known and top tier players on YouTube providing feedback and even dismantling the idea that lawbringers are top tier or OP.

You are better off having an extra Orochi on your team or as your partner.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:37 AM
Its not the spin that grants the evade. Its the dodge.


Thats why your polearm goes through EVERYONE that dodges.

No. The spin attack that Orochis and berserkers have is a guaranteed evade.

I can attack them while they're in motion and watch my polearm go through them, with no hit marker, and I receive damage. Even though physically my polearm hit them first. But it doesn't register nor interrupt their attack.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 08:38 AM
You are better off having an extra Orochi on your team or as your partner.


Okay now you aren't even making sense.

There is NO OTHER Hero I want next to me in a fight than a LB in this game. His CC makes teamfights A JOKE.


You have no idea what you are talking about. You are letting your salt override common sense now.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 08:39 AM
No. The spin attack that Orochis and berserkers have is a guaranteed evade.

I can attack them while they're in motion and watch my polearm go through them, with no hit marker, and I receive damage. Even though physically my polearm hit them first. But it doesn't register nor interrupt their attack.

I know and I am telling you that mechanic applies to dodges in general. The dodges in this game (Like alot of games) grants you I-Frames for a period of time during the dodge.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:42 AM
Okay now you aren't even making sense.

There is NO OTHER Hero I want next to me in a fight than a LB in this game. His CC makes teamfights A JOKE.


You have no idea what you are talking about. You are letting your salt override common sense now.

Any team full of assassin's will steamroll a team of hybrids and heavies. I've seen it hundreds of times.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:46 AM
I know and I am telling you that mechanic applies to dodges in general. The dodges in this game (Like alot of games) grants you I-Frames for a period of time during the dodge.

And what I'm saying is that a spin such as Berserkers and Orochis should not be a guaranteed evade, especially when going against heroes with longer weapons. If my weapon hits first, even if you're spinning, it should hit you and interrupt the attack. It shouldn't just go through the assassin as if it never happened.

It's broken.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 08:48 AM
Any team full of assassin's will steamroll a team of hybrids and heavies. I've seen it hundreds of times.

No they won't.

A team of competent Warlords would ACE a team of Zerkers with VERY little trouble.


And what I'm saying is that a spin such as Berserkers and Orochis should not be a guaranteed evade, especially when going against heroes with longer weapons. If my weapon hits first, even if you're spinning, it should hit you and interrupt the attack. It shouldn't just go through the assassin as if it never happened.

It's broken.

No its not.

The ENTIRE POINT of an assassin/Counter attack class is to EVADE and ATTACK their enemies. You are basically yelling at the clouds for raining. What you are doing is essentially the same as someone complaining about Conquerors turtling up and playing defensively.



I honest to god can't tell if this is troll thread or not anymore.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 08:53 AM
No they won't.



No its not.


I honest to god can't tell if this is troll thread or not anymore.

It's not a troll thread at all. The animation, you can physically see the polearm go through your assassin opponent. Before he is even close enough to hit you with his shorter range weapons.

It literally ignores my attack entirely, when the animation doesnt. The animation still shows my polearm hitting him before he hits me. But because of how broken the dodge mechanic on these heroes actually is, it ignores my attacks despite my animation beating him to the punch.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 09:00 AM
It's not a troll thread at all. The animation, you can physically see the polearm go through your assassin opponent. Before he is even close enough to hit you with his shorter range weapons.

It literally ignores my attack entirely, when the animation doesnt. The animation still shows my polearm hitting him before he hits me. But because of how broken the dodge mechanic on these heroes actually is, it ignores my attacks despite my animation beating him to the punch.

Okay I see the issue here. You don't know what I-Frames are. I will explain in detail.


I-Frames stand for "Invincibility Frames" or "Immunity Frames" depending on who you ask. They are frames in an animation in which the person or character cannot be affected by outside forces. This is implemented in various fighting games (Most famously in Dark Souls) in order to reward the player correctly timing their dodge/other animation and thus granting them a no damage situation.


This is implemented in the "Spin attacks" as you call them because while being attacks they are DODGE attacks and thus receive the same treatment as a regular dodge. Whether your animation shows you hitting them or not is irrelevant because the I-Frames are granting them immunity from your hit because they timed their dodge correctly and have successfully countered your attack.


This is not a bug and this is not OP. Its a fundemental way of balancing out the extreme range/size of attacks and rewarding players with good timing. Otherwise the person with the biggest weapon or the biggest range would always win and THAT actually would be OP.




Make sense now?

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 09:09 AM
Okay I see the issue here. You don't know what I-Frames are. I will explain in detail.


I-Frames stand for "Invincibility Frames" or "Immunity Frames" depending on who you ask. There are frames in an animation in which the person or character cannot be affected by outside forces. This is implemented in various fighting games (Most famously in Dark Souls) in order to reward the player correctly timing their dodge/other animation and thus granting them a no damage situation.


This is implemented in the "Spin attacks" as you call them because while being attacks they are DODGE attacks and thus receive the same treatment as a regular dodge. Whether your animation shows you hitting them or not is irrelevant because the I-Frames are granting them immunity from your hit because they timed their dodge correctly and have successfully countered your attack.


This is not a bug and this is not OP. Its a fundemental way of balancing out the extreme range/size of attacks and rewarding players with good timing. Otherwise the person with the biggest weapon or the biggest range would always win and THAT actually would be OP.




Make sense now?

It's not balanced. That's the whole point. My weapon connects first. It should reward me regardless of whether you're spinning in your i-frame or not.

Me timing my attack to hit you half a second before you hit me should reward me.

You're basically saying the long range weapon such as a polearm, should perform at the same range as that of a katana.

That's ridiculous.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 09:13 AM
It's not balanced. That's the whole point. My weapon connects first. It should reward me regardless of whether you're spinning in your i-frame or not.

Me timing my attack to hit you half a second before you hit me should reward me.

You're basically saying the long range weapon such as a polearm, should perform at the same range as that of a katana.

That's ridiculous.

From a reality point of view? Yes you are 100% correct. The person with the longer reach/bigger attack radius would usually win.


From a video game balance point of view? You are 100% wrong. In a game where there needs to be a certain amount of equality they have to balance out the size and range of attacks so that short range fighters are not boxed out. Its just the way that these things work and have worked for years.


Also I am not saying they should have equal range. I am saying that to balance out the reach of the polearm they have given short range fighters to ability to dodge the attack. Those are two totally separate things. You can still land your hits if you land them, but if the opponent dodges them correctly then you won't hit. Just like if you were to dodge THEIR attacks they can't hit you.



They will never remove that from the game so you need to either get used to it or pick another class.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 09:22 AM
From a reality point of view? Yes you are 100% correct. The person with the longer reach/bigger attack radius would usually win.


From a video game balance point of view? You are 100% wrong. In a game where there needs to be a certain amount of equality they have to balance out the size and range of attacks so that short range fighters are not boxed out. Its just the way that these things work and have worked for years.


Also I am not saying they should have equal range. I am saying that to balance out the reach of the polearm they have given short range fighters to ability to dodge the attack. Those are two totally separate things. You can still land your hits if you land them, but if the opponent dodges them correctly then you won't hit. Just like if you were to dodge THEIR attacks they can't hit you.



They will never remove that from the game so you need to either get used to it or pick another class.

I'm not wrong. As a lawbringer I have to be extra particular in my timing of my attacks due to the slow nature of the attacks. On top of that, I have to worry about i-frame giving a clear advantage to faster heroes with shorter weapons. This puts any slower hero at a disadvantage.

Why play a slower attack hero with longer weapons when the game doesn't reward you for it?

Shorter weapon heroes should have to be more particular in their timing when facing people with longer weapons. There shouldn't be some magical i-frame which completely ignores my successfully timed attacks. I already have to be extra particular in my timing due to the speed of my attacks. On top of that my weapon doesn't actually perform at the length it should.

That's basically a double whammy against lawbringer to the assassins advantage. Justifying my entire post to begin with.

The assassin should have to play more defensive and exploit my badly timed attacks. I-frame shouldn't give them automatic advantages. That's not balance. That's basically computer enforced I win buttons.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 09:26 AM
I'm not wrong. As a lawbringer I have to be extra particular in my timing of my attacks due to the slow nature of the attacks. On top of that, I have to worry about i-frame giving a clear advantage to faster heroes with shorter weapons. This puts any slower hero at a disadvantage.

Why play a slower attack hero with longer weapons when the game doesn't reward you for it?

Shorter weapon heroes should have to be more particular in their timing when facing people with longer weapons. There shouldn't be some magical i-frame which completely ignores my successfully timed attacks. I already have to be extra particular in my timing due to the speed of my attacks. On top of that my weapon doesn't actually perform at the length it should.

That's basically a double whammy against lawbringer to the assassins advantage. Justifying my entire post to begin with.


The salt has consumed you. I am done arguing.


The I-Frames are not OP. The fact that I as a Beserker since the Closed Beta have trouble with Good Laebringers is proof of that.


Your entire point boils down to "I HAS A BIG WEPUN AND IF MUH SCREENS SHOWS I HITTUM THEN I HAS HITTED UM" which works in the real world, but thats not how games like this work. Balance dictates that the person with the biggest weapon or longest reach won't always win.


End of story.

Sykobox
05-18-2017, 09:32 AM
The salt has consumed you. I am done arguing.


The I-Frames are not OP. The fact that I as a Beserker since the Closed Beta have trouble with Good Laebringers is proof of that.


Your entire point boils down to "I HAS A BIG WEPUN AND IF MUH SCREENS SHOWS I HITTUM THEN I HAS HITTED UM" which works in the real world, but thats not how games like this work. Balance dictates that the person with the biggest weapon or longest reach won't always win.


End of story.

You can't call it balance. The role of the assassin is to exploit opportune moments of attack against a foe. If the game were balanced, the length of my weapon would perform as it should. Forcing the assassin to be less aggressive and more defensive, waiting for the opportunity to strike.

I'm already punished with slow attacks. The range is suppose to be the pro to the weapon, to makeup for the cons of slower attacks.

You claim the goal is balance. And yet, with this system as it exists now it clearly displays the opposite of balance. Which benefit heroes which already make up most of the playerbase.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 09:33 AM
You can't call it balance. The role of the assassin is to exploit opportune moments of attack against a foe. If the game were balanced, the length of my weapon would perform as it should. Forcing the assassin to be less aggressive and more defensive, waiting for the opportunity to strike.

I'm already punished with slow attacks. The range is suppose to be the pro to the weapon, to makeup for the cons of slower attacks.

You claim the goal is balance. And yet, with this system as it exists now it clearly displays the opposite of balance. Which benefit heroes which already make up most of the playerbase.

As I said. Done arguing over nothing.


Agree to disagree.

CaynAldan
05-18-2017, 09:37 AM
I-frames are designed to override the fact that animations are always the same, not like in real life where you can adjust your reactions to the enviroment. Said in other words, it's easier to implement I-frames to one dodge animation that a complete animation specific for each weapon.
You are thinking in dodge with animetion attached to it, but you should think in the opposite way: It's a dodge, animation is irrelevant.
Assasins and some other characters have a combo of dodge+attack to link a good timed dodge with a fast attack. In fact, dodge part of that attack give opponent free gb (that's the reason i don't use it with my orochi)

You just need to feint to get over dodge+attack

PD: By the way if you change iframes for hyper armor, and drop off free gb from dodge i would be very happy :D

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 09:40 AM
I-frames are designed to override the fact that animations are always the same, not like in real life where you can adjust your reactions to the enviroment. Said in other words, it's easier to implement I-frames to one dodge animation that a complete animation specific for each weapon.
You are thinking in dodge with animetion attached to it, but you should think in the opposite way: It's a dodge, animation is irrelevant.
Assasins and some other characters have a combo of dodge+attack to link a good timed dodge with a fast attack. In fact, dodge part of that attack give opponent free gb (that's the reason i don't use it with my orochi)

You just need to feint to get over dodge+attack

PD: By the way if you change iframes for hyper armor, and drop off free gb from dodge i would be very happy :D

See this guy gets it.

CeIasun
05-18-2017, 10:42 AM
Okay now you aren't even making sense.

There is NO OTHER Hero I want next to me in a fight than a LB in this game. His CC makes teamfights A JOKE.


You have no idea what you are talking about. You are letting your salt override common sense now.


I agree with this, while I don't like the class specially how it it played some times, I like to see at least one in my team.

Arekonator
05-18-2017, 11:49 AM
As fellow LB main, dont have issue with it mechanics wise but seeing your weapon pass harmlessly through your enemy does indeed look stupid.
PK for instance sort of ducks under the incoming swing during her dodge which makes it more clear and better looking than just becoming a ghost for a second.

Antonioj26
05-18-2017, 01:09 PM
As a lawbringer main (ps4), I'm absolutely sick of Orochis and Berserker spins. I can watch my polearm go through them as they spin, take no damage, and hit me repeatedly. It's the most broken mechanic in all the heroes. Especially for us slower heroes. It's a hard counter. If you don't parry it, you're screwed.

The vast majority of assassin's spam this knowing it's really difficult to counter. The vast majority of the player base plays these heroes for this reason. It's not skillful. It's not a combo. It can be spammed repeatedly with a low probability of punishment as its hard to parry such a fast attack.

They better not take away my free overhead heavy because guys like this can't get these easy parries off.