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VolatileKnight
05-17-2017, 12:18 AM
The Shinobi can guard break from a distance, yes, however what it chains in to is ridiculous. He can chunk half of a Warden's health, just from that opening. The pull causes damage, and then grants him a free top heavy. It can chunk half of my health, encouraging them to stay out of arms reach from all classes. Which is just plain absurd.

The Centurion can do something similar, however it is a bit easier to counter. But if he gets his opening on you and gets you to the ground because of it, expect another huge chunk out of your health.

Why is this overpowered? Valkyr, Lawbringer as well as the Conqeuror can all be countered, and these combos are split into parts that are actually blockable or avoidable. But the Centurion and Shinobi put you in a position that you can't resist if they start on you. The damage they deal is absolutely ridiculous, especially for being fast classes. Of course, we have meta nerds saying they are perfectly fine. But not really, not when they can chunk half of your health.

Netcode_err_404
05-17-2017, 12:21 AM
The Shinobi can guard break from a distance, yes, however what it chains in to is ridiculous. He can chunk half of a Warden's health, just from that opening. The pull causes damage, and then grants him a free top heavy. It can chunk half of my health, encouraging them to stay out of arms reach from all classes. Which is just plain absurd.

The Centurion can do something similar, however it is a bit easier to counter. But if he gets his opening on you and gets you to the ground because of it, expect another huge chunk out of your health.

Why is this overpowered? Valkyr, Lawbringer as well as the Conqeuror can all be countered, and these combos are split into parts that are actually blockable or avoidable. But the Centurion and Shinobi put you in a position that you can't resist if they start on you. The damage they deal is absolutely ridiculous, especially for being fast classes. Of course, we have meta nerds saying they are perfectly fine. But not really, not when they can chunk half of your health.

Dodge the kick, and make them feel the power of the Miserums.

VolatileKnight
05-17-2017, 12:34 AM
That's if you can. If you don't, half of your health is gone. Same with Shinobi. That's far too punishing, no character can do that with just one chain. It takes Valk about 2-3 trips to do that, Conq needs countless shoulder bashes, Lawbringer needs about 2-3 shoves or guard breaks, Warden 2-3 shoulder bashes and I could go on. But those two characters? Yeah if they touch you once with the right thing, expect a huge chunk of your health gone. That's ridiculous, far too overpowered and encourages less variety.

Kaotic_CipherTV
05-17-2017, 12:40 AM
Wait a warden is complaining about being comboed with free attacks ?!

Netcode_err_404
05-17-2017, 12:41 AM
That's if you can. If you don't, half of your health is gone. Same with Shinobi. That's far too punishing, no character can do that with just one chain. It takes Valk about 2-3 trips to do that, Conq needs countless shoulder bashes, Lawbringer needs about 2-3 shoves or guard breaks, Warden 2-3 shoulder bashes and I could go on. But those two characters? Yeah if they touch you once with the right thing, expect a huge chunk of your health gone. That's ridiculous, far too overpowered and encourages less variety.

the trade insane damage low health is something I don't like as a concept and thats why i don't care **** about shinobi.

However, how about waitinf a couple of weeks so all people can try them out. ? Probably is just me, but i prefer fighting A CENTURION RATHER THAN THE
umpteent warden that spams shoulder bash.

I just don't like the fact they basically spam unblockables ad infinitum,in 4v4 is probably too good.

VolatileKnight
05-17-2017, 12:46 AM
I actually don't spam shoulder bash, and I'd be willing to play anyone to prove it. Nor do I spam zone, I play differently. However, I've clearly pointed out how it's op. Other characters chain their attacks, and they can be countered of they start on you. There is a way out of those combos. However these new characters, if they start on you there is now way out. They both pin you to the ground and get free hits that are massively damaging. The shoulder bash can be dodged, but the Shinobi's? It's pretty damn quick so good luck. How can you not see this?

Netcode_err_404
05-17-2017, 12:56 AM
I actually don't spam shoulder bash, and I'd be willing to play anyone to prove it. Nor do I spam zone, I play differently. However, I've clearly pointed out how it's op. Other characters chain their attacks, and they can be countered of they start on you. There is a way out of those combos. However these new characters, if they start on you there is now way out. They both pin you to the ground and get free hits that are massively damaging. The shoulder bash can be dodged, but the Shinobi's? It's pretty damn quick so good luck. How can you not see this?

Because i have no idea how they work, neither you have. Thats why we should wait 2-3 weeks before making points.

Udonitron
05-17-2017, 02:15 AM
WHat I think needs a change with Shinobi is if they are to pull you in with their kama then it should not do damage but rather be like any other character grabbing and tossing you aside.
I died a few times today just being hit from that at a distance as it was doing an 1/8 of my life per hit.
There should not be that huge of a distance and still doing damage IMO otherwise I was doing OK against them with Nobushi...the Cent however...yeah ridiculous.

Sir_rage_quit
05-17-2017, 02:28 AM
why the new classe are OP really ? S A L E , M O N E Y !

Duuklah
05-17-2017, 12:35 PM
I have a good idea of how they work. I spent a few hours today on lvl 3 bots til i had a very strong win %..

Went to PvP and got pwned by most cents and pwned most shins.. Shins are fine Cents are REALLY Lame

4v4 Cent is stupidly OP.. **** UBI

AdeptusLupos
05-17-2017, 03:55 PM
The Shinobi can guard break from a distance, yes, however what it chains in to is ridiculous. He can chunk half of a Warden's health, just from that opening. The pull causes damage, and then grants him a free top heavy. It can chunk half of my health, encouraging them to stay out of arms reach from all classes. Which is just plain absurd.

The Centurion can do something similar, however it is a bit easier to counter. But if he gets his opening on you and gets you to the ground because of it, expect another huge chunk out of your health.

Why is this overpowered? Valkyr, Lawbringer as well as the Conqeuror can all be countered, and these combos are split into parts that are actually blockable or avoidable. But the Centurion and Shinobi put you in a position that you can't resist if they start on you. The damage they deal is absolutely ridiculous, especially for being fast classes. Of course, we have meta nerds saying they are perfectly fine. But not really, not when they can chunk half of your health.

Inaccurate, it's not a free top heavy, I had a warden block the top heavy after the range grab 4 time in a row on my shinobi, this is a git gud problem not a class problem

Also you have to have impeccable timing as the shinobi to pull of the combo, every hit takes an input, and if you don't do them during the exact right time of the animations then you fail to complete it.

The new classes can be countered as well. YOU just haven't learned how to counter them specifically yet because they are new.

Knight.Bishop
05-17-2017, 04:37 PM
The new characters are exactly that, new. It takes time for the community to acclimate to their play style, understand what the viable combos are and how to counter them, and what to expect when fighting them.

Compare yesterday to the very first day that the game came out. If you came to these forums, it was full of "Orochi is OP!" and Orochi wasn't being played nearly as efficiently as he is today.

No one was talking about Peacekeeper until 40 days into the game or so.

My point is that literally everyone you played against as Cent/Shinobi last night wasn't playing them at 100% efficiency, and thus they will only get stronger over time as people learn to play them. Simultaneously, the community will learn how their tricks work, and they will get weaker over time as they are more easily countered.

Only after that community wide calculus is complete will we know how they rank in the overall power structure.

Everything before that is knee-jerk reactions.

XxHunterHxX
05-17-2017, 04:55 PM
wait a warden is complaining about being comboed with free attacks ?!

gold !!

Knight_Raime
05-17-2017, 05:14 PM
Might I ask what platform you are on? I'm on xbox one and the heavy after a ranged GB I always block. I heard it's different for whatever reason on pc.

PDXGorechild
05-17-2017, 06:04 PM
why the new classe are OP really ? S A L E , M O N E Y !

This guy has it cracked.

buhahh125
05-17-2017, 06:11 PM
Wait a warden is complaining about being comboed with free attacks ?!

Haha. WERD!

Duuklah
05-17-2017, 08:00 PM
Why the new characters are OP - GREEED

RatedChaotic
05-17-2017, 08:04 PM
The Shinobi can guard break from a distance, yes, however what it chains in to is ridiculous. He can chunk half of a Warden's health, just from that opening. The pull causes damage, and then grants him a free top heavy. It can chunk half of my health, encouraging them to stay out of arms reach from all classes. Which is just plain absurd.

The Centurion can do something similar, however it is a bit easier to counter. But if he gets his opening on you and gets you to the ground because of it, expect another huge chunk out of your health.

Why is this overpowered? Valkyr, Lawbringer as well as the Conqeuror can all be countered, and these combos are split into parts that are actually blockable or avoidable. But the Centurion and Shinobi put you in a position that you can't resist if they start on you. The damage they deal is absolutely ridiculous, especially for being fast classes. Of course, we have meta nerds saying they are perfectly fine. But not really, not when they can chunk half of your health.

I like countering it and pulling her a$$ to the ground.

UrWaifuAintReal
05-17-2017, 08:04 PM
The Shinobi can guard break from a distance, yes, however what it chains in to is ridiculous. He can chunk half of a Warden's health, just from that opening. The pull causes damage, and then grants him a free top heavy. It can chunk half of my health, encouraging them to stay out of arms reach from all classes. Which is just plain absurd.


Just counter GB and make him say goodbye to half of his health with a top heavy.

DeLatv
05-17-2017, 08:05 PM
If the new character was Kensei or Raider, would you sing the same song, of "ohh wait 2 weeks to adjust to the new champs" ?

No you wouldnt they are OP, just like ever god damn special move champion that gets free damage, Warden, Warlord, now centurion and shinobi.

Its not only that we will adjust to the new champs, people will learn how to play them too.

When the game came out, warden wasnt that good, it was when they mastered shoulderbash became OP.

Looking at Centurion and shinobi moves, its matter of time they become unstopable.

If Kensei or Raider were the new champions, i doubt ANYONE would complain they are OP, cos block and parry is the same with all champs.

ImmortalBeaver
05-17-2017, 08:28 PM
I think the OP is largely correct. The new characters can just punish far too well, and as people get better it's only going to get worse. I think they actually encourage a turtle meta even more because you make a single mistake against a semi-competent Shinobi or Centurion and you're going to lose the vast majority of your health. Make a mistake against *any* other class in the game and you might get hit with a free heavy (or something like the Kensei's wall punish) but after that you're back to being able to react. Dodge, parry, CGB, whatever. The Centurion and Shinobi do not follow those rules. They encourage turtling and reactive play, waiting for them to make mistakes so you can punish back.

As an aside, even if the community determines that both new characters are 100% fair in a few weeks, I hate what they do to matches. They make every moment like fighting next to a ledge. Make a mistake, you die. Your opponent makes a mistake, they die. Very little skill or chance for a comeback, just playing chicken until somebody messes up. Ubisoft doesn't necessarily need to nerf these characters. They need to completely change their playstyles, along with significant changes to existing mechanics if this game is ever going to be able to move towards being less of a cluster****. I would personally suggest greatly increased chip damage to discourage excessive turtling, while not allowing chip damage to finish people off to discourage spam.

To end on a positive note, I do think this game is fixable. I just think that some serious changes need to happen. Ubisoft needs to be much more careful to not deliberately try to farm cash from people by messing with gear stats that people had already paid good steel for while offering new characters for a financial premium that might've deliberately been designed to have an advantage during the early access period. They need to focus on balance and meaningful community focused fixes (see Operation Health for Rainbow Six Siege) and less on trying to get more and more money out of a community that's dying. It's not dying from a lack of new content, but from a lack of a positive and fun competitive experience. They can fix this. Time will tell if Ubisoft will or not.

BeefMan_
05-17-2017, 08:32 PM
Dodge the kick, and make them feel the power of the Miserums.

The kick is a 50/50. Shinobi can delay it and GB you if you dodge.
That, along with the fact that it has hyperarmor, confirms a heavy, and can't be punished even if you dodge makes it obscenely broken.

Funeragon
05-17-2017, 09:12 PM
The kick is a 50/50. Shinobi can delay it and GB you if you dodge.
That, along with the fact that it has hyperarmor, confirms a heavy, and can't be punished even if you dodge makes it obscenely broken.

"Confirms a heavy" well, yeah it is true, but u didn't mention that the heavy deals 25 damages.
And yes, u can punish it as every other 50/50

VolatileKnight
05-17-2017, 09:25 PM
I think the OP is largely correct. The new characters can just punish far too well, and as people get better it's only going to get worse. I think they actually encourage a turtle meta even more because you make a single mistake against a semi-competent Shinobi or Centurion and you're going to lose the vast majority of your health. Make a mistake against *any* other class in the game and you might get hit with a free heavy (or something like the Kensei's wall punish) but after that you're back to being able to react. Dodge, parry, CGB, whatever. The Centurion and Shinobi do not follow those rules. They encourage turtling and reactive play, waiting for them to make mistakes so you can punish back.

As an aside, even if the community determines that both new characters are 100% fair in a few weeks, I hate what they do to matches. They make every moment like fighting next to a ledge. Make a mistake, you die. Your opponent makes a mistake, they die. Very little skill or chance for a comeback, just playing chicken until somebody messes up. Ubisoft doesn't necessarily need to nerf these characters. They need to completely change their playstyles, along with significant changes to existing mechanics if this game is ever going to be able to move towards being less of a cluster****. I would personally suggest greatly increased chip damage to discourage excessive turtling, while not allowing chip damage to finish people off to discourage spam.

To end on a positive note, I do think this game is fixable. I just think that some serious changes need to happen. Ubisoft needs to be much more careful to not deliberately try to farm cash from people by messing with gear stats that people had already paid good steel for while offering new characters for a financial premium that might've deliberately been designed to have an advantage during the early access period. They need to focus on balance and meaningful community focused fixes (see Operation Health for Rainbow Six Siege) and less on trying to get more and more money out of a community that's dying. It's not dying from a lack of new content, but from a lack of a positive and fun competitive experience. They can fix this. Time will tell if Ubisoft will or not.

That's exactly what I've been trying to say, no other character can chunk half a vanguards health by just one mistake. Fights take time and it's a battle of wits. However these new characters are far too different from that and kinda put the game on the top of it's head. Like I said, conq or lawbringer can't chunk half my health from one combo, I can interrupt them. Try interrupting a shinobi or centurion when they start on you. You actually can't lmfao. But of course, it's not overpowered right? I mean hey, I could spam shoulder bash until someone doges, and the same could be said for valk, conq, warlord and lawbringer. Their combos can be interrupted, but these new characters have combos that can't be interrupted once they start and it gives them quite an unfair advantage. But meta warriors will still defend them I guess.

Thr3shHo1d
05-17-2017, 09:48 PM
I generally do not think the characters are OP. I main Nobushi and haven't really had a problem with them. Everyone is just "suffering" because they don't know how to face the new characters just yet. Shinobi, In my opinion, is the easiest one to take down. 1 good dodge into a GB and Shinobi's life is half gone. same with ranged counter guard break.. same with ranged parry. Just don't get overly excited and you should come out on top, but yes, he can be hard to react to and I say, give it time, man. As far as Centurion goes, I have been caught in his vortex.. but it's no worse than Warden's let's be real here. WIth Warden, you have to guess right, or roll backwards to get out of it, I feel its the same with Centurion, guess right and you'll dodge into a GB, guess wrong and you're punished for it. Take the time and fight them over and over, and if it gets to a point where you absolutely cannot beat them, ok. come here and explain why they're OP.

BeefMan_
05-17-2017, 09:54 PM
"And yes, u can punish it as every other 50/50

It has no recovery frames. Even if you dodge it successfully, you get nothing from it.

KalkPost
05-17-2017, 10:15 PM
To sum it up:

Nerf until Wardens win 100% in every match.

Almost worked with PK, too. Hope UBI won't listen to the loudest complainers again.

dekot11
05-17-2017, 10:21 PM
To sum it up:

Nerf until Wardens win 100% in every match.

Almost worked with PK, too. Hope UBI won't listen to the loudest complainers again.

the people who abused warden and warlord are going to be the same ones who abuse centurion

KnifeInUrNeck
05-17-2017, 10:45 PM
As a shinobi main I was surprised by how many people picked centurion over shinobi. Shinobi has an extremely steep learning curve since he does have a lot of tools, knowing the right one for the right moment at high speed can get tricky. You counter the shinobi with feints, CGB, and aggressiveness. Getting two shot by a Shugoki when you mess up your timing or they catch your dodge does happen. Getting yanked on your *** also sets you up for a two shot. You could also press them when their stamina is low as they can't kick or use most of their kit.

pancakerz
05-17-2017, 10:51 PM
The Shinobi can guard break from a distance, yes, however what it chains in to is ridiculous. He can chunk half of a Warden's health, just from that opening. The pull causes damage, and then grants him a free top heavy. It can chunk half of my health, encouraging them to stay out of arms reach from all classes. Which is just plain absurd.

The Centurion can do something similar, however it is a bit easier to counter. But if he gets his opening on you and gets you to the ground because of it, expect another huge chunk out of your health.

Why is this overpowered? Valkyr, Lawbringer as well as the Conqeuror can all be countered, and these combos are split into parts that are actually blockable or avoidable. But the Centurion and Shinobi put you in a position that you can't resist if they start on you. The damage they deal is absolutely ridiculous, especially for being fast classes. Of course, we have meta nerds saying they are perfectly fine. But not really, not when they can chunk half of your health.

I haven't seen this shinobi combo, but I have found it INCREDIBLY easy to counter the ranged gb. It takes days for it to hit you, giving you lots of time to time your counter, and possibly even sidestep it (haven't tested that yet). I main Orochi, and I've seen Beserker's knock off 50+% of my health bar with one top heavy (plus hyper armor to boot, which I learned that hard way, trying to interrupt it).

I haven't played much against the new characters, but I did do a few rounds of duel against an admittedly new shinobi player and had little trouble countering the ranged attacks. Also, I learned that a single LB combo (light, heavy, heavy) took the shinobi from max health to dead. Just an interesting note.

UbiNoty
05-17-2017, 11:39 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. Like a few of you have pointed out, it's been less than 3 days since the new heroes were released so everyone is still learning how to both play with and against shinobi and centurion. We'll be monitoring the forums for feedback on the new heroes very closely in the upcoming days, and if something really does need to be changed we're more than open to balancing.
But also - give them a chance!

xKrypticz
05-17-2017, 11:43 PM
"Give them a chance"...ahahah THIS COMPANY IS A JOKE!!!!

CandleInTheDark
05-17-2017, 11:44 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. Like a few of you have pointed out, it's been less than 3 days since the new heroes were released so everyone is still learning how to both play with and against shinobi and centurion. We'll be monitoring the forums for feedback on the new heroes very closely in the upcoming days, and if something really does need to be changed we're more than open to balancing.
But also - give them a chance!

The posts started coming out less than eight hours after release, I get that the characters are new but some of this is on people not taking the time to play against bots in a controlled setting and running into pvp, especially dominion, like nothing had changed.

Lyskir
05-17-2017, 11:45 PM
The posts started coming out less than eight hours after release, I get that the characters are new but some of this is on people not taking the time to play against bots in a controlled setting and running into pvp, especially dominion, like nothing had changed.

agree

VolatileKnight
05-18-2017, 12:43 AM
To sum it up:

Nerf until Wardens win 100% in every match.

Almost worked with PK, too. Hope UBI won't listen to the loudest complainers again.

I compared the two because I main Warden. That's what I use the most, and before you say it, no, I don't spam gb or zone.

So to sum it up, "Someone made a valid point about a broken hero that I'm using. So now I'm insecure about it." So damn salty lmfao.

Vordred
05-18-2017, 01:39 AM
sorry it may have only been a day, but these two characters are op. they don't fit in with the rest of the cast at all.

i find it funny how people defend the Cent, when he have almost everything people have complained about in the past, all rolled into one character.

you have one character you can't defend against, as he can spam unblockable and unparryable moves at you, and if he gets you, can get a ton of fee damage well you sit and watch, and just to add insult to injury, this highly offensive character, has Parry counters too, just incase you attack him.

then you have another character that you can't hit. can teleport in and out and kick you with a move that you can not stop even if you heavy him in the face well he is doing it, and if you dodge it, you still can punish him for it.

CoyoteXStarrk
05-18-2017, 01:50 AM
Its like you people have no concept that other people have experiences that contradict your own lol


I sat and watched Strippin (Who is a good Raider main) play for HOURS yesterday and he was rinsing his way through the Centurians and Shinobi in Duels and Brawl. I myself have had no real issues with the new heroes once I got the timing and the combos down.



I know its a meme and joke at this point, but you actually do need to GET GOOD. Just because you lose to something does not mean EVERYONE loses to that thing and it does not mean that thing is OP.


Coming to yell at the forums about every single thing that kills you does nothing but show you have no concept of self reflection.

Jk-Klio
05-18-2017, 02:37 AM
The only concern I really have with the Cent and Shinobi is the strength they bring into 4v4 with the ranged GB, Quick unblockable, and Pinning attacks which i hope is toned down a bit

As for 1v1 and 2v2 they are rather good, seeing as there is only one and you can focus on mindgames, dodging and punishing without getting stunlocked by 2+ Cents or Gb spammed from range by a Shinobi while fighting someone else.

In short: There a pain in the *** in 4v4, balanced in 1v1 and 2v2.

Sykoink
05-18-2017, 02:45 AM
"Give them a chance"...ahahah THIS COMPANY IS A JOKE!!!!

I'm guessing you are having a hard time against the new characters? That single line sums it all up. They are new characters, people are not used to them or had a chance to play with them because they don't own a season pass. The move sets are unknown by a lot of people and they get overwhelmed by the characters. If you actually take the time to read/practice and learn about these two classes, you will have an easier time. In my opinion, for example, the Warlord still wrecks more people than the 2 new characters do, but people know how the warlord plays, know what his weaknesses are and he doesn't surprise you anymore so there is less complaining.

When something is new, you need to learn and adjust and get comfortable to it, then in time (depending on how talented you are or the willingness to learn) everything will be fine. Both characters can be heavily punished and the Centurion is actually quite easy to read. Most people are just like deer caught in headlights at first, which is perfectly normal.

So yes, UbiNoty is right, give them a chance.