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faustnik
01-13-2004, 09:45 AM
Making and running B-17 intercept missions I've run into a couple problems. The first one is exploding B-17 bombloads taking out entire flights of bombers. When the bombload gets hit with a Mk103, I've had up to 6 bombers go down at once. Is this realistic?

The other issue is parachutes from the bombers causing massive lag. When three or four bombers get hit and their crews bail, this becomes a major problem.

Lastly, in a effort to somewhat reduce AI gunner effectiveness, I set bombers to a mix of average and rookie skill level. The rookie pinheads however, always miss their bomb targets by about half a mile.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

thanks,

faust

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faustnik
01-13-2004, 09:45 AM
Making and running B-17 intercept missions I've run into a couple problems. The first one is exploding B-17 bombloads taking out entire flights of bombers. When the bombload gets hit with a Mk103, I've had up to 6 bombers go down at once. Is this realistic?

The other issue is parachutes from the bombers causing massive lag. When three or four bombers get hit and their crews bail, this becomes a major problem.

Lastly, in a effort to somewhat reduce AI gunner effectiveness, I set bombers to a mix of average and rookie skill level. The rookie pinheads however, always miss their bomb targets by about half a mile.

Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

thanks,

faust

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

StellarRat
01-13-2004, 10:03 AM
My reading and my mother's personal accounts of Allied bombing tell me that both of your situations are realistic. I've read that exploding bombers have taken 2 or 3 others with them. You might have too tight a formation if six are getting blown up at once.

As to bombing accuracy: It was lousy. A very small percentage of bombs hit anything important. Even supposed "daylight precision bombing" was not precise. Mostly a lot of cows and wheat plants were killed. That's why hundreds of bombers were sent to attack a single target.

Future-
01-13-2004, 10:39 AM
Yeah, and maybe they sent so many bombers cause there also was strong resistance by aaa and interceptors.

"Strenght in mass" - not only a nice phrase, back then it was the only way for the bombers to get to their targets and inflict massive damage to both the targetted object and the attacking defenders.

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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Visit us at http://members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

faustnik
01-13-2004, 11:07 AM
I typically create a 'box' with 2 flights of three B-17s. One is slightly below and behind the other. This is the formation that I have seen in pictures. The defensive fire of this type of box is formidable to say the least!

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FW190fan
01-13-2004, 02:13 PM
Wow, I've never seen 6 bombers go down like that at once. I would probably be pretty happy about that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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owlwatcher
01-13-2004, 05:27 PM
Been fooling around with B-17s.
Exploding B-17,I thought this was going to be a problem but did not show up.
What bomb load are you using?
My missions are carrying 500lbers.
As for the parachutes, if you have a chance shoot them or add 25mm AA guns to shoot them.
Instead of reducing the AI gunner effectiveness leave it at Ace .
There are ways of attacking B-17s with success,These attacks must be right on or you pay.

RidgeR5
01-13-2004, 07:13 PM
If I remember correctly, the rate was around 38,000 pounds of bombs dropped by the USAAF to destroy a single target. That is a lot of 500 pounders....76,000 or so of them to take out a single factory complex. Sounds like IL-2 got it right...

Here is a though, instead of dumbing down the AI, make it so only some B-17s have ammo on them...fewer bombs dropping, but fewer rounds hitting you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MustangWZI
01-13-2004, 07:33 PM
I've run into a problem too, The B-17's can't seem to maintain high altitudes. I've made several missions around that were around 6000-6500 merters and always, the bombers altitude would slip.

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Like the moon over
The day, my genious and brawn
Are lost on these fools
~Haiku

NegativeGee
01-13-2004, 07:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MustangWZI:
I've run into a problem too, The B-17's can't seem to maintain high altitudes. I've made several missions around that were around 6000-6500 merters and always, the bombers altitude would slip.

http://server4.uploadit.org/files2/140104-sig5.JPG
Like the moon over
The day, my genious and brawn
Are lost on these fools
~Haiku<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this seems to be a problem several of us have encountered. I set up several missions using the following plan (courtesy of Microsoft website) to position individual bombers into the formation:

http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs1/img/bomber_formation.jpg

Although not a very suitable formation for the B-17 type in FB, it did have usable measurements on it!

At cruising altitudes the formations break up fairly quickly due to slight movements of the planes relative to one another. You can move them around a few metres here and there, but it only delays the inevitable. As a result, I used the set up for "instant" action intercept/escort missions where the attack is about to occur and the formation breaks up anyway.

I think it is pushing the limits of FB for this type of set up, but it is not too bad. If it were possible to manually define the positions of a multi-plane element in the FMB, I think the formations would hold very well.

Anyway, back to the original posters question.. I recall reading some accounts of Luftwaffe/B17 pilots/crew who saw bomb loads explode in mid-air and the the resultant carnage.... so I would think FB is pretty accurate here.

As to the 'chutes... not a clue but if anyone else knows... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And the AI gunners...... if you go Veteran or higher they get a bit on the effective side for my liking so I agree that rookie/average is the best skill level.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

owlwatcher
01-13-2004, 08:48 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MustangWZI:
I've run into a problem too, The B-17's can't seem to maintain high altitudes. I've made several missions around that were around 6000-6500 merters and always, the bombers altitude would slip.

I think getting As real life is not possiable with this software with high altitude flying.
Dropping down to 4500 to 6000 meters with 5000 seems to be a sweet spot.
Also stacking the bombers then line up stacking to box. Hope you get my drift.
The flight size also will matter for spacing. 75m for 4 , 50 for 3.
I did not look at formation flying from historial aspect but from what the computer & software would allow.
One thought on bomber mass blowing up at once.
You maybe staying to long & to close when attacking a bomber formation.Which is why you keep getting shot down. Just theory.
I have a missions with 48-64 B-17s flying around 2 hours bombing & landing with success with no losses.
Want to try Ask.
Oh Zero's are great for shooting the chutes.

faustnik
01-13-2004, 09:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:

What bomb load are you using?
My missions are carrying 500lbers.
As for the parachutes, if you have a chance shoot them or add 25mm AA guns to shoot them.
Instead of reducing the AI gunner effectiveness leave it at Ace .
There are ways of attacking B-17s with success,These attacks must be right on or you pay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The bombs were 1000 pounders.

I will try the AAA for the chutes thanks for the idea. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The "Ace" setting for B-17s is way out of control. "Average" or "Rookie" are much more realistic settings. I completely agree however, about using appropriate tactics for intercepting the bombers.

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owlwatcher
01-13-2004, 09:32 PM
At this Space in time game wise I like the Ace status for the B-17s.
Flying at 5000m is like learning the game anew.
It takes quite some time to get position for a good attack.
Speed is now in over abundance when you are in attack position.
By themselves B-17 are sorta easy with 108s.
You as the interceptor have to break the box first then start the Happy time.
Breaking the box is a risky job.
And the ace status seems alright to me.