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worr
04-23-2004, 11:21 AM
I've been doing some searched and still have a question. My experience is that there is a delay on the trim key. So one click does nothing. So you have to hold the imput key to get some trim put in. But then it appears the trim key accelearates and over does it.

Is there a way to manage trim key in a more incremental way? And is there a way to measure trim? Normally, you just crank a wheel in a real ac and can count the turns. Here it seems all guess work.

Worr, out

worr
04-23-2004, 11:21 AM
I've been doing some searched and still have a question. My experience is that there is a delay on the trim key. So one click does nothing. So you have to hold the imput key to get some trim put in. But then it appears the trim key accelearates and over does it.

Is there a way to manage trim key in a more incremental way? And is there a way to measure trim? Normally, you just crank a wheel in a real ac and can count the turns. Here it seems all guess work.

Worr, out

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-23-2004, 11:25 AM
Do this...Get in a P-51 (the C is my current fav) and look down and to the left. There is a trim wheel there and if you activate your trim tabs, you'll see how it only moves incrementally.

In the aircraft I fly regularly, I have memorized the number of trim "clicks" to achieve the flight attitude I desire and simply plug them in as soon as I'm at a pre-determined altitude. I wait until then because most planes have a slight nose up tendency anyway and I don't have to wrestle the controls as much if I just let the default trim work for me.

Hope this helps.



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georgeo76
04-23-2004, 11:25 AM
yea, there is a delay. this is to prevent an exploit where by ppl can turn tighter using elevator trim. it's not historical and it's not going away

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worr
04-23-2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by georgeo76:
yea, there is a delay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a delay after you hit the key? Or is it a delay once you hold down the key? Must you hold down the key?

And a follow up question: Is there no delay for additional imputs if you hold down the key?

I'm guessing the answer is yes because it is too easy to overtrim.

As for the "fix" it does more harm than good, imo. But not trying to get into an arguement here...just want to understand what the current fix is and trying to forget how real aircraft fly for the moment. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Worr, out

gates123
04-23-2004, 12:57 PM
There are trim tab indicators on the fw's and spits (left bottom side of cockpits), use these to practice getting the timing down. There is a delay if you hold the key down but there isnt a delay if you tap the keys which I often do right before I open up with the kitchen sink. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/justin/1087/WWII/Images/Thumbs/TBf109AK.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Cadet_Flagello
04-23-2004, 01:05 PM
No, well, see the way I see it Trim is absolutely useless in this particular simulation. I admit that I am not as experienced and savvy on plane models and specs but am studying intensely (lol!).

To me it's pointless to trim a WW2 fighter aircraft due to the nature and purpose of it (although I do use trim at times). This is particularly true of fighters-interceptors (i.e. the Lavochkin, the Yakovlev etc). When you read about most WW2 plane specifications, it does not give a cruise speed which means that it is not reccomended for that plane to fly straight and level as its meant to take off find the enemy in the shortest time, kill it, and land. Besides I've tried trimming the aircraft for level flight many a time, never managed to get the plane to fly like that (with both hands off the control stick so to speak, i.e. plane should fly by itself) because you constantly have to click and adjust which is not worth it really...

LEXX_Luthor
04-23-2004, 02:54 PM
Map trim to mouse wheel. Very easy to learn then. Trim works well now at least on mouse wheel. I always fly with elevator trim alone for climb, descent, and level flight. Not so with aircraft with no elevator trim like I~16, there you trim with power/pitch alone.

For the flight sim Newbies:: Even La~7 flew level when escorting IL~2, from time to time.

I think real life Fb109 pilots wish they had rudder trim.

Offwhine simmers worship RBJ Of The Luftwaffe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif



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lil_labbit
04-23-2004, 03:36 PM
Trim delay sucks - real time - if the plane had trim give it... but not because of some whiners do you limit the response time - one of the lame things in FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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16thBD_Dylan
04-23-2004, 05:28 PM
hey


i just have one question :
i have wheel that works on my mousse, but i cain't assigne the wheel to trim in the game controls , any advice ?

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gates123
04-23-2004, 05:42 PM
Set it in the hotas menu

LEXX_Luthor
04-23-2004, 05:52 PM
Yeah, at the bottom of the FB input menu is the settings for joystick and stuff. Just click on the box for elevator trim and move the mouse wheel a wee little bit. Forgot which way to move it but try until you get elevator up trim when you move the mouse back (I forgot if that's +Z axis or -Z axis or something like that).

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"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

16thBD_Dylan
04-24-2004, 08:08 AM
ok , got it , my mouse wheel's workin now
thanx ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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worr
04-24-2004, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cadet_Flagello:
I've tried trimming the aircraft for level flight many a time, never managed to get the plane to fly like that (with both hands off the control stick so to speak, i.e. plane should fly by itself) because you constantly have to click and adjust which is not worth it really...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Triming is everying in flying a real airplane...hence the added realism in the simulation if it is done correctly. As it stands now, it is a half measure.

I've talked to P-51 pilots who flew her in combat, and they speak of beating the trim tabs constantly. The 51 demanded trimming even in combat for every pitch and power setting....especially elevator.

OK, thanks to you who sent me to the cockpits to look at the trim tab. But now I have a question about the delay. Because when I click I see instant movement on the trim wheel. But does that mean the aircraft is being trimmed instantly? There still seems to be a delay.

Worr, out

Blottogg
04-24-2004, 02:27 PM
Worr, I don't know about the timing of the indicator movement arrows, but there is a pause between the initial trim command, and its effect on the airplane. One click will have an effect, not very large, and not right away. Pressing and holding the trim (known as "running the trim") will not have any delay after the initial delay. In this case, trim commands will also "stack", and continue being input to the aircraft after the trim button is released (another unrealistic feature, but perhaps a limitation of the sim engine.) I haven't tried using the mouse wheel yet, since I thought Oleg and crew had made it impossible to map trim to a slider axis several patches ago.

This lag is one of my gripes, too. It was done IIRC to stop the "trim cheaters" who were mapping trim to a slider in order to change trim settings unrealistically fast, like georgeo76 said. The pilots of the real aircraft actually trimmed using either hand-cranked trim wheels, or perhaps electric trim for some aircraft, which would also have a limited rate of change. In the game, this couldn't be simulated without a delay (though I wish the delay was after the input instead of before... it would be more realistic and less frustrating that way.) Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be on the list of things to be changed.

Thunderbolt56 has a good suggestion. Learn how many clicks it takes to trim your favorite ride for level flight (Hurricanes for example take about 15 clicks of rudder trim at full power.) Or if the mouse wheel works for you, go with it. Using a button, clicking will give you more control over how much trim you dial in, though there will be a delay before all the inputs take effect (if you click quickly, the commands will still stack.) Running the trim makes it too easy to blow right past the setting you want (this is true for real aircraft with electric trim as well, though in real aircraft, the trim input stops when you release the button.)

Also, not all aircraft have trim for all three axes (most German aircraft don't have rudder or aileron trim, for example.) I-16's have no trim, so don't go nuts trying to use it. Buffaloes have trim indicators on the left panel, but I don't know what other aircraft have them (other than the Spits and 190's, and the trim wheel on the 'Stangs That Thunderbolt56 and gates123 mentioned.) 109's have a trim wheel modelled, but it doesn't move.

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

edit: grammar

worr
04-24-2004, 02:34 PM
Thanks, Blotto. Great reply!

Do you know the time of the delay?

Yes, as in any ac you have to memorize the right trim. I'm guessing each ac is unique.

BTW...triming in combat isn't unrealistic.Real pilots did do this.

A friend of mine has a six seater Cessna (206) that when you fly it without anything in the back it has a forward center of gravity. On landing and in the flare, I'll pull back the stick and use the electric trim to assist to get it full back in my chest to avoid a wheel barrow landing.

I do like clicks instead of a wheel...for more control.

Worr, out

willyvic
04-24-2004, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worr:
....A friend of mine has a six seater Cessna (206) that when you fly it without anything in the back it has a forward center of gravity. On landing and in the flare, I'll pull back the stick and use the electric trim to assist to get it full back in my chest to avoid a wheel barrow landing.....


Worr, out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geez, remind me not to fly with y'all. If you've got the controls in your chest you're aicraft is FUBARED mate. You should never have to deflect the surfaces that much on landing unless you cog is way out the window. In which case ya shouldn't even take it out of the parking spot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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worr
04-25-2004, 05:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willyvic:
If you've got the controls in your chest you're aicraft is FUBARED mate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only that, the controls are made out of elastic. It is an expression willyvic. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have you flown a six seater Cessna?

Worr, out

worr
04-25-2004, 04:46 PM
I'll take that as a no.

Anyone know the delay time from key imput to (ahem) reality?

Worr, out

Jetbuff
04-25-2004, 09:34 PM
You should have been here a while ago when trim discussions still hadn't become faux pax.

Here are a couple of threads on the topic at simHQ:
http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=006337
http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=98;t=008143

Highlights:
1. Trim allows your virtual pilot to overcome aerodynamic resistance. (realistic)
2. Before FB, this incredible stress on the airframe did not incur a severe enough penalty, behold the bat-turn is born!
3. Someone comes up with the bright idea that slowing trim down will prevent the exploit, the mob agrees and presto, we have sloth trim.
4. Sloth trim does not deliver on preventing the bat-turn and ruins the utility of trim for it's primary purpose. Now only people with rotaries/sliders can use it properly, and only with some difficulty.

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Locust_
04-25-2004, 09:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by georgeo76:
yea, there is a delay. this is to prevent an exploit where by ppl can turn tighter using elevator trim. it's not historical and it's not going away

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to tell you this but that lil delay does not stop people from using it, I know many people who use hardcore trim & It makes turning certain ac MUCH MUCH More effective.......

RaybanJockey was right when he said Oleg didnt fix the trim exploit... He just masked it a bit

I wish the day would come when trim had no effect on Turning as it does NOW !!!

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worr
04-26-2004, 12:36 PM
Thanks for the links. I saw others raised my same question, but also didn't get an answer. Anyone know the delay time?

Not sorry i missed this controversy...and apologies if it opens old wounds. But, imo, it shouldn't be allowed to be enfranchised as is.

Worr, out

LEXX_Luthor
04-26-2004, 12:46 PM
That's okay, Newbies may want to find out what is wrong with their trim, and who Whined about the trim onwhine internet Cheat (old timers) until trim was taken away from offwhiners too.

I think they have restored some of the trim speed, about the time the Patch came out that took away horizontal stabilizer for fighters (a big stink about that too but Oleg stood his ground). No matter if you map trim to mousewheel you get realistic trim response and the tactile feedback from the wheel is closer to real trim wheel than keyboard so it works pretty good.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

gates123
04-26-2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worr:

Anyone know the delay time from key imput to (ahem) reality?

Worr, out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Worr,

Its like one second. Best thing to do is jump in a 190 and get the timing down, zoom in on the trim indicator on the left panal near the throttle and hold your elevator trim down and watch it move positive or negative. Its really all about elevator trim, and its the two buttons I use the most in this sim because missing on a nicely executed bounce really bums me out. I usually just tap the buttons, on certain occasions I'll hold it down when a bandit in front of me does some extreme neg G stunt or something but its rare. Good luck! and since learning how to properly trim my aircraft in combat it has really improved my hit percentage.

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/justin/1087/WWII/Images/Thumbs/TBf109AK.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

Jetbuff
04-26-2004, 04:06 PM
Worr, delay is 15 secs if going from stop to stop. It is applied over the whole range of motion, i.e. regardless of how fast you dial in trim there is a theoretical maximum speed that will not be exceeded. (total range of motion/15secs) The problem though is that once a certain amount of input is dialed in (say 10 clicks or button press for 2 secs) the trim keeps moving until it completes the full range of desired input t it's much slower rate. Does that explain the delay enough?

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AB_Mormac
04-26-2004, 08:39 PM
Thanks LEXX Luthor, Your idea of mouse wheel trim is right on.Tryed it and works great just like real trim on aircraft.Agian thanks bud and Cheers

worr
04-26-2004, 09:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Worr, delay is 15 secs if going from stop to stop. It is applied over the whole range of motion, i.e. regardless of how fast you dial in trim there is a theoretical maximum speed that will not be exceeded. (total range of motion/15secs) The problem though is that once a certain amount of input is dialed in (say 10 clicks or button press for 2 secs) the trim keeps moving until it completes the full range of desired input t it's much slower rate. Does that explain the delay enough?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm afriad it does. &lt;shutter&gt;

Man that is really dumb. 15 seconds? (Or maybe you misunderstood my question of time from imput to reality?)

So, if what you say is true, now the game becomes something of a mathmatical memorization exercise for those who know the trim settings based upon speed so that they just fly the numbers and gain the advantage. You'd think they could disable this for off line flight for those seeking something less gamey.

Never had much sympathy for the "fly by the numbers" pilots. They seem to be one ride wonders. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for the help guys!

Worr, out

Bearcat99
04-26-2004, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Locust_:
I hate to tell you this but that lil delay does not stop people from using it, I know many people who use hardcore trim & It makes turning certain ac MUCH MUCH More effective.......

RaybanJockey was right when he said Oleg didnt fix the trim exploit... He just masked it a bit

I wish the day would come when trim had no effect on Turning as it does NOW !!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As long as trim effects flight..as it should it can be used in combat.. as it was in real life. Anyone who thinks real pilots didnt use trim are fooling themselves... they used whatever they could to ensure they came back home alive.

The best way to get trim more effective is to put it on a slider. Get an X45 and put it on a wheel. The X45 has center detents that will center the trim.. just like real planes had.. or at least they had an incremental dial on the wheel so you would know where you were. I see nothing wrong with using trim..or any other control that is in the sim.

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worr
04-26-2004, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
The best way to get trim more effective is to put it on a slider. Get an X45 and put it on a wheel. The X45 has center detents that will center the trim.. just like real planes had.. or at least they had an incremental dial on the wheel so you would know where you were. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have a X35/36 set up. Can you put it to a knob without using the Saitek software? I'd rather stay away from their software as I use analogue rudders.

You aren't talking multiple key imputs as you turn the knob, but going from neutral to max based upon how far you turn the knob? Or does the X45 have something different, that I'm not seeing?

Worr, out

Jetbuff
04-26-2004, 10:03 PM
Yes, you can program either of the two rotaries directly if they are recognized by the game. I find that SGE allowed only one slider to be recognized and XP default drivers had some issues but now SST is flawless. Either way, you do not need to (and indeed can't) use the software to map trim to any of the rotaries. It is done via the game's "HOTAS" section at the bottom of the controls page. Simply highlight the appropriate axis (e.g. elevator trim) and move the knob. If it is reversed when you are in game, hit escape &gt; controls &gt; higlight the elevator trim section again and move it the other way.

This compensates for the lack of "feel" of what your current trim is but there is still some lag between what you dial in and what the final position is. But, if you use it really really slowly, the rotary and in-game trim approximate each other a bit better.

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hos8367
04-27-2004, 03:00 AM
I'm curious, how does trim work in real aircraft? I was under the impression that, for instance, using elevator trim would just adjust the elevator's position while the stick is neutral so that the plane would fly straight. If the plane was nosing down, the pilot would adjust the trim so that when he let go of the stick the elevators would be pointing up a little so that the plane flies straight. Is it just a limitation in the sim that makes planes turn tighter when trimmed?

worr
04-27-2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Yes, you can program either of the two rotaries directly if they are recognized by the game. I find that SGE allowed only one slider to be recognized and XP default drivers had some issues but now SST is flawless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot use SST. It wont allow Bob Church's fix so that it works with analogue (Thrustmaster) rudder pedals. I'm also on WinME.

Either way, you do not need to (and indeed can't) use the software to map trim to any of the rotaries. It is done via the game's "HOTAS" section at the bottom of the controls page. Simply highlight the appropriate axis (e.g. elevator trim) and move the knob. If it is reversed when you are in game, hit escape &gt; controls &gt; higlight the elevator trim section again and move it the other way.

Neat. I'll give this a try! So if you spin it fast to the post it still goes max, eventually?

Worr, out

[This message was edited by worr on Tue April 27 2004 at 07:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by worr on Tue April 27 2004 at 07:49 AM.]

Jetbuff
04-27-2004, 08:29 AM
Hos, increased turn-ability is not only possible but a physically plausible phenomenon. IL-2/FB simulate stick forces, ie. your joystick inputs are actually being translated to a specific amount of pilot effort on the virtual stick. In effect, maximum deflection on your joystick does not translate into maximum in-game deflection of the virtual stick but only maximum available pilot effort. If you are going fast enough, (above about 350kph) this maximum effort (50lbs IIRC) is not enough to fully deflect your virtual stick due to the aerodynamic forces on the elevators/ailerons. (remember, these are not hydraulically augmented controls in these old warbirds)

In such a situation, adding some positive trim (in the same direction of the desired motion) will provide a form of mechanical assistance to your virtual pilot allowing him to partially compensate for the increased stick forces. This is not just conjecture btw, and Bud Anderson and several LW pilots note it in a few articles which unfortunately I do not have the links to on this PC. So, theoretically, there is nothing wrong with trim assisting high-speed turns.

The problem arises in that in the old IL-2 days there was very little penalty for high G's in the form of little or no airframe stress calculations and minimal blackout problems. In real-life, although possible, it was ill-advised to use trim to assist turns because the resultant G-forces could put both the plane and pilot in jeopardy. Even when performed in dive pull-outs (the typical scenario btw) the plane/pilot that come out at the other end (if at all) are in no shape to continue the fight.

Anyway, some bright ninkumpoops on this forum started exploiting the lack of repercussions to execute what became known as the bat-turn. Add in a little lag, misinformation, ego-bruising and paranoia and the mob demanded that Oleg "fix" trim. Voila, trim was slowed down. Everything is great right?

Nope! Bat-turns are still possible if you pretrim and the accuracy of trim for hands-off level flight has been castrated. (or "fixed") Well, why don't I see bat-turns as often any more? The real reasons the bat-turn is now a rare event is because (a) the net-code is a little better (imo); (b) blackouts are now much more serious affairs that will not only dim your screen but literally render your virtual pilot unconscious and therefore unable to pull G's; and (c) last but certainly not least, stress-damage is now much more prominent, pull too many G's, especially with a damaged plane and it's Sayonara!

Yet the sloth-trim remains. A true icon of mob-mentality and half-a$$ed fixes. Don't blame Oleg, blame the clueless whiners who thought this was a great idea! #$@#W!#@# http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

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Jetbuff
04-27-2004, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worr:
So if you spin it fast to the post it still goes max, eventually?

Worr, out<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, yes.

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worr
04-27-2004, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hos8367:
I'm curious, how does trim work in real aircraft?....Is it just a limitation in the sim that makes planes turn tighter when trimmed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hos836, let me explain it from my context...as I fly Piper's...Archer and Comanche mostly. There is a tab within the elevator. It is about 10% the surface of the elevator, and really with Pipers it is the whole horizontal stab that is the elevator. Sometimes the tab (like on a Cessna) is only one of the elevators, so the surface area is even less.

Now before take off you set the trim tab to a preset for take off...and depending on how you are loaded, I like a tish more positive trim since I started eating my Wheaties at a young age.

After take off, gear up, MP backed down, you'll trim for the climb. Every time you change the power setting; every time you change the pitch; and whoever the weather (winds, temp, etc) change; you'll change the trim. It wasn't until I got my IFR ticket that I mastered trim, and that is where most pilots learn it best.

We have a bunch of warbirds here at my airport, and I've spoken to combat pilots too (Bob Goebel's from the 31st FG was one) and they mention that the P-51 demanded constant trim, but the P-38 rarely needed it. Again, every pitch, power, and weather change...even the fuel burn...meant a change in trim.

I'll say that coming from other flight sims, the demand for trim in this game is more realistic. It will reward your gunnery, and increase your turns and maneuvers, if you stay ahead of it. A pilot learns to anticipate trim...even as he reaches for the flaps he is dialing in the nose down trim.

Of course, a high performance aircraft will demand more rudder trim, and some aileron. However, not to the same measure as elevator trim even then.

Worr, out

worr
04-27-2004, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, theoretically, there is nothing wrong with trim assisting high-speed turns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not just theoretically, but practically too.

If I fly a Cessna 206 with me and another beafy passenger in the front, and I don't dial in the positive trim, I wont get the nose gear off the runway, and will wheel barrow it in. That's a fact. You don't get maximum throw if you don't also trim.

So there is no "bat turn" it is a reality that trim assists real turns. Where there real pilots in on this discussion before? Or did just a bunch of flight simmers complain?

The issue might be you could full stop your trim faster than a real pilot, but I think you are only talking about a few seconds faster with computer input. A real pilot flies with one hand...and the other sits on the power controls and near the trim.

Besides, a good pilot wouldn't be that far away from the right trim settings before he got into a turn fight anyhow. He would be brining up the nose trim as the fight began to slow into a lower energy fight.

I do not know how many warbirds had this in WWII but electric trim would compensate for this too. I suppose I could trim the electric trim next time I fly and report stop to stop times...but that wouldn't be a warbird. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

However, I didn't mention this before...and this probably would be the easier fix in the game than what other's call "sloth trim." On a real airplane you cannot fly the plane via trim. If you trim out of a dive instead of pull out of a dive, you'll find the trim tabs cannot take the stress. Most certainly slamming the trim full stop in two seconds would bust up the hinges and certainly the electric motor too if it was being used.

Trim is for fine tuning.

Worr, out

BaldieJr
04-27-2004, 09:19 AM
Well that sounds like the real fix to me. A bit of code that says

If trim = moved-too-fast OR speed = too-fast AND trim_deflection = too much
trimtabs = gone


That should cover it. Only those trying to exploit it would be penalized, while those using mostly-realistic trim pocedures get proper trim.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

El Turo
04-27-2004, 09:55 AM
What Jetbuff said.

The level of ignorance, stupidity and flat out mob-mentality witch hunting that went on with trim and "bat turns" was just simply astounding.

The sloth-trim we have now is a joke.

As Worr can attest, it is entirely possible to go from relatively neutral trim to full-back trim in just a few seconds in a real aircraft.

This 7-8 seconds garbage accompanied by delayed-input is just rediculous. If you HAVE to place a limitation on the rate of change, at least have the input stop when you let off the button/switch. The back-logged input that makes the trim continue once you let off the key/button/switch is the most maddening part of all.

I could see 7-8 seconds on an electric system, much like lowering flaps can take a bit while holding down the switch.

To top it off, it is entirely possible to calibrate your joystick "forward" to a degree necessary to offset 100% back elevator trim so that you fly relatively level hands-free... and then when you DO pull back on the stick, you are doing so with the benefit of 100% trim all the time.

The sloth-trim should go.. it's completely gamey and unrealistic.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

gates123
04-27-2004, 10:27 AM
I dont have a problem with the way it is since I'm always trimming the A/C (98% elevator) and there has NEVER been a point for me where I need to hold down trim for 7 seconds to keep her level. If your doing your job and always compensating trim throughout the flight then you'll never be more then a few clicks away from a steady shot. It's is a full time job

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/justin/1087/WWII/Images/Thumbs/TBf109AK.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

worr
04-27-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by H_Butcher:
As Worr can attest, it is entirely possible to go from relatively neutral trim to full-back trim in just a few seconds in a real aircraft<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure I made that testimony...and I don't necessarily want to get dragged into an old fight with old biases firmly in place. Also, I'm sure there are other pilots here and about with more time on their logs than me.

But I wouln'd say you could go from neutral to positive in a "few seconds." I'll be up flying next week and can check....but either way I don't fly WWII vintage ac to give a fair comparison...though I've flown a WWII trainer, but I didn't stop to count the time for trim I was having so much fun hanging upside down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I agree with what gates said. Half the battle is staying ahead of the battle.

Worr, out

Locust_
04-27-2004, 12:43 PM
Bearcat.....

I Know some people who fly small ac there not fighter ac but they say that they do not use trim to assist in turning, Now maybe its just them, but I have a fealing that trim did not effect Real fighter ac turning ability as much as it does in this game/sim maybe Im wrong maybe not.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/161sig.jpg

Fighter Sweeps is here come join the fun.....
http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

worr
04-27-2004, 01:21 PM
Double post

[This message was edited by worr on Tue April 27 2004 at 12:56 PM.]

worr
04-27-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Locust_:
I Know some people who fly small ac there not fighter ac but they say that they do not use trim to assist in turning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you came out and asked any civilian pilot if he uses trim to assist in making turns he would say, "No."

But keep in mind two things. A) the kind of turns he is making are turns in the pattern, or around a VOR, or out on the practice section; not chasing another aircraft in a luftberry circle. B) He is using trim every time he turns...but not to "assist the turn" but because it is second nature to him. Every pitch and power setting gets a new setting on the trim...and without thinking...unless you are just a novice pilot.

That being said, when you do maneuvers for your commercial ticket you are most certainly going to trim before you do them. You have to do a chandelle, and you are not going to hold that nose up very long without some positive trim. Either that, or you have the biceps to hold it there.

Maybe trim is more secondary in real life...more in the background of the pilot's duties and thinking...then say in this game as one seeks to tighten a turn to get a gun resolution on someone. Then again, we do not load up ammo before we go flying in the real world...but we always take as much fuel as we can. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Worr, out

Jetbuff
04-27-2004, 02:54 PM
Locust, WWII pilots DID use trim to help alleviate the forces in a turn. Bud Anderson says as much in this article:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

I refer you to this quote in particular:
"There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning."

I think it was also DNME who mentioned coming across accounts from LW pilots saying they pre-trimmed their 109's tail-heavy when anticipating a turn-fight. I'm also sure you can find articles mentioning pilots using trim to help them pull out of a dive. It's just simple physics.

Yes there are time constraints and sometimes the trim wheel won't even budge if the speed is high enough, but simulating realistic trim speed does not prevent the dreaded "bat-turn". BTW, worr, we're talking a pull out from a vertical dive at 700kph in less than 500m which is just not right without, as you said, the trim tabs (or something more susbstantial like the wings!) coming off.

I wouldn't mind the sloth-trim if it prevented a real exploit, but it doesn't, the better blackout and airframe stress modeling are doing that. All sloth-trim does is ruin the precision and therefore usefulness of trimming for hands-off level flight. It still (as it should!) assists with stick forces for turning at speeds and at terminal speeds the aforementioned fixes take care of that. Now that we have a real fix for the super-duper pull-out, it's high time we ditched this poorly applied band-aid.

PS: I will concede this much, ever since the first time this trim-issue raised it's ugly head, I have held that quite possibly the effect was overdone because of the low airspeeds at which elevators became extraordinarily heavy. So you could very well be correct in your assumption that the real-life effect was much less pronounced than in FB since I figure most warbirds were designed to allow the pilot to apply full deflection throughout most of the flight envelope only needing trim assist at much higher speeds than the currently modeled 300-350kph. Of course, this is purely conjecture on my part.

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

Jetbuff
04-27-2004, 03:02 PM
Found an early image from the discussion:
http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/trim.gif

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

Jetbuff
04-27-2004, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, theoretically, there is nothing wrong with trim assisting high-speed turns.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not just theoretically, but practically too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I say theoretically because there are a variety of other factors involved: e.g. in a 190 which was reportedly light on the controls trim would not be as necessary in aiding turning as in the cramped cockpit of a 109 which is rumoured to have negatively influenced the pilots' ability to exert their full force on the stick.

I also say theoretically because at a fast enough speed I expect controls to lock-up, trim or no trim! After all, even with a mechanical or electrical advantage, the trim tabs still have to force the elevator up or down against some immense pressures and who's to say how much force trim tabs could exert in such situations?

All that aside, and mainly coz I don't want to argue this one all over again, if sloth-trim does nothing to address a real or percieved exploit, why are we keeping it again?

Pritzl, truly out... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

JG14_Josf
04-27-2004, 03:41 PM
Virtual Pilots myths trim (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/#trim)

109E
'Five three-quarter turns of a 11.7 in diameter wheel on the pilot's left are needed to move the adjustable tailplane through its full 12 degrees range.'


'The Fw 190's pilot could electrically adjust the stabilizer incidence a total of 5 deg to compensate for changes in the aircraft's fore-aft trim (balance in flight'
from 'Walk Around' Focke-Wulf Fw 190A/F
squadron/signal publications #22

The 109's also adjusted trim by changing the stabilizer incidence angle.

This method of trimming by changing the stabilizer incidence angle must have characteristics that are different from the trim tab control however the game seems to simulate all planes the same.

Having trim mapped to an analog wheel with a middle possition detent offers the advantage of feedback for speed.

For example: Trimming to a possition above the detent can become a familiar high speed trim setting in a particular plane. When a fight deteriorates into slower speeds the need to pull back on the stick becomes obvious and the tendency to dial in more nose up or slower speed trim can be used to monitor speed loss and energy loss. If the trim wheel must be turned way past the detent toward slow speed trim then the fight is deteriorating under vertical maneuvering and under corner speed.
The trim wheel can be used as a speed feedback device in conjuction with stick forces. If the pilot decides not to fight at speeds under corner veloicty and if the pilot knows where the trim wheel is trimmed nuetral at this speed and if the pilot sets the trim wheel for corner velocity then when the pilot finds he is having to pull back on the stick just to mainain level flight then he knows his energy level is in the toilet.

Blottogg
04-27-2004, 04:20 PM
Excellent summaries by Jetbuff (nice diagram, too. I don't remember seeing that one in the previous threads, but I didn't follow all of them.)

Another possible problem with trim turning in the sim is that it might be extending the limits of elevator movement, allowing trim to increase turn performance over neutral trim full stick deflection at slow speeds. I'm not sure on that one, and for aircraft that trim with stabilizer movement (like the 109) that would actually be realistic, but I digress...

Worr, I think sloth trim (good term, Jetbuff) was enacted to try to simulate realistic rate limits to trim changes. It became cumbersome and unrealistic when the delay was attached after the command, instead of before the next command (if that makes sense.) Imagine dialing the trim wheel of your Cessna, then waiting a second or two for the effect. You'd be chasing the trim forever (running electric trim can cause the same problem in real aircraft, because of a combination of trim speed and aircraft inertia. The delay in the sim is much worse though.)

You and Jetbuff are also right that trim can tighten turns by helping reduce stick forces (you can also think of it as repositioning the neutral point as in Jetbuff's diagram.) The problem doing this in real life is that trim moves slowly, and if you need to stop turning, you're left pushing forward to maintain level flight (and shoot.) This is difficult to do IRL, but the trim cheaters could just spin the trim axis, and retrim unrealistically fast. If the 109 driver's trimmed for turns IRL, they probably got really good at aiming while pushing forward, since they could only spin the trim wheel so fast, and not while adjusting the throttle. The only control we have that simulates real trim wheels, which can turn multiple 360's lock-to-lock, is the mouse wheel. I may have to try using that for trim, though it sounds like the initial delay will still be there.

Manual trim is slow to change, both to give enough mechanical advantage to allow the dials/wheels to be able to be turned, and also to allow for enough precision to be useful. The tabs themselves aren't under too much stress. Even at high speeds, there isn't much area for the flow to act on, nor moment arm between the trim tab's trailing edge (worse case torque) and its hinge. The reason they're as powerful as they are is that they have the entire chord of the control surface acting as a lever, applying their rather small force on the trailing edge, instead of closer to the control hinge (as the aerodynamic center of the entire control surface is.) Jetbuff is right that trim is dangerous at high speeds because of the large effect a small trim change can have on g loading, both for the pilot and airframe. This is another reason not to trim during dynamic maneuvering.

Finally, you're right that real pilots trim constantly, including in sustained turns. My mantra to students in T-38's (aside from "Try not to kill me") was "Trim, trim, trim." Trim for configuration changes, airspeed changes, and changes in formation position (my technique as wingman was to trim slightly nose heavy, which helped me stay stable.) The thumbs on our right gloves routinely wore out first (we trimmed electrically with the "coolie hat" on the stick.) Even though the controls were hydraulic, weights and springs gave artificial feel, and that "feel" could be substantial, and fatiguing if you stayed out of trim long enough. F-16 electrons trim for g, not airspeed, so in the Viper trim was "set and forget", but that's another digression.

My wish list for Il-2 sim trim is to put the delay after the input (preventing another input but allowing immediate effect for the first input), and eliminating "stacking" of trim commands, so releasing the trim control stops trim changes. I'm not sure how this could be impelemented using an axis, other than some form of rate limit (which would still lag behind the trim change, and thus feel delayed and rubbery.) Right now, the stacked commands trigger my old habit patterns to look for the trim curcuit breaker, thinking I've got runaway trim.

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

edit for grammar

El Turo
04-27-2004, 04:37 PM
Three cheers for Blotto.

Another voice of reason in the chaos and insanity that is the internet.

!S

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

worr
04-27-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jetbuff:
BTW, worr, we're talking a pull out from a vertical dive at 700kph in less than 500m which is just not right without, as you said, the trim tabs (or something more susbstantial like the wings!) coming off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I should think that above Va (manuver speed) the trim tabs shouldn't be the primary source of g's...though you would never do this even below Va. But for the FM you could use the Va as a base line to inflict damage so that the trim isn't over sensative. You can trim as you pull, but you wouldn't begin the pull with trim or else damage the hinges, or the motor if with electric trim.

I have held that quite possibly the effect was overdone because of the low airspeeds at which elevators became extraordinarily heavy.

Well, elevators do become very heavy at slow airspeeds....feels like your arms are coming out of your chest if you forget to stay ahead of the trim. Lot's of new pilots don't trim before the flare and find themselves in a wheel barrow for this reason.

Yes, blotto. Once an ac is trimmed anyone can fly it. So the skill of becoming a pilot is LEARNING not how to fly, but how to trim...and all the more so in IFR.

Worr, out

worr
04-28-2004, 06:09 AM
I got my X35T knob to do the trim...seems to work as expected. But the art graphic doesn't show it dialing in more than one click.

Worr, out

worr
05-05-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Locust_:
I wish the day would come when trim had no effect on Turning as it does NOW !!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But trim should have an effect on turning.

Just landed in a 41 knot gust of wind today, btw. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Worr, out

El Turo
05-05-2004, 07:11 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Whoa.. crosswind component of 41kts?

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
Amidst morning clouds
Fork-tailed devil hunts its prey
Lightning strikes, süsse träume.

altstiff
05-05-2004, 07:19 PM
I have the book "Fighter tactics and strategy" by Edward H. Sims.

In it he chats with German ace Kurt Buehligen.

On page 136 it says and I'm quoting right from the book here....

"One of the secrets of some German fighter pilots was to fly with the 109 trimmed slightly to climb, Buehligen revealed. The nose was held down by constant forward pressure on the stick, and then when the pilot wanted to pull up quickly, he pulled back and the nose came up more quickly and the aircraft didn't mush."

See you in the fence....

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