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XyZspineZyX
06-27-2004, 04:21 AM
This game sux as far as the stalls go.

Any way/ chance of fixing them ?????

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2004, 04:21 AM
This game sux as far as the stalls go.

Any way/ chance of fixing them ?????

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2004, 04:31 AM
www.darcorp.com (http://www.darcorp.com)

OldMan____
06-27-2004, 05:41 AM
Can you be more specific? And remember WW@ planes do not behave like todays planes.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2004, 08:46 AM
every stall except a minor stall ends in a flat spin that is virtually unrecoverable from.

See also "Look Here" thread

WWMaxGunz
06-27-2004, 02:24 PM
There's already multiple threads on the subject with expert discussion by
aerobatics pilots, and they don't see a need to get real upset or post a
link to... wth is darcorp? Sounds like a business name.

smatchimo
06-27-2004, 02:33 PM
So let me get this straight, the stalls suck in this game because you cant recover from them. Thats odd, unless I am at a dangerously low altitude, I dont have any probs recovering from a stall. In fact I use it as a last resort for evasion.
And people wonder why we dont hear from Oleg any more.

LuftKuhMist
06-27-2004, 02:47 PM
Throttle 0%

Pro Aileron

Con Rudder


Stop complaining, do this and you'll live 90% of the time. If you can't get out of the spin and if you are a sissy, you can just turn autopilot on, he'll get out of it in a flash.

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

Willey
06-27-2004, 04:04 PM
The stalls suck because there a complete lack of them. FB only knows spins. The definiton of a spin is that only one wing stalls while the other one remains with a stable airflow. And that's exactly what happens every time in FB if one pulls a bit too much.

Anyway I think Oleg once said back in Il-2 times that it would need to much rework of the code to fix this. It's like this because the engine was only suited for the Il-2 initially and every body who flew it in Il-2/FB knows that's its hardly stallable. The engine is as old as 8 years now - at least. AFAIK Il-2 was planned to be released in 1996 first.

VW-IceFire
06-27-2004, 04:22 PM
Yet another reason why they are retooling everything for Battle of Britain and their future games.

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2004, 04:22 PM
Willey, thanks for the heads up. Much appreciated.

smatchmo, I understand what you are saying there and am aware of that situation and very fine stick control is required. 'Tis a shame the same effect occurs on a mountainside at 2,400.

LuftKuhMist, blow me, your remarks are really helpful. sissy and auto pilot indeed.

Ice Fire, thanks for the info.

Willey
06-27-2004, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Yet another reason why they are retooling everything for Battle of Britain and their future games.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I think the "restart" with BoB will also filter some other problems like simple CEM, high alt modelling, engine temps modeling etc. Finally the BoB will grow just like FB - with a much higher technical standard.

ASH at S-MART
06-27-2004, 05:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vagueout:
This game sux as far as the stalls go.

Any way/ chance of fixing them ?????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>http://www.p0stwh0res.com/images/noob.jpg

ASH HOUSEWARES
http://www.thecobrasnose.com/images4/brucecampbellSMart.jpg

smatchimo
06-27-2004, 05:14 PM
cc vag, didnt mean to be a *%$#@ about it. As much of a leap forward as this sim is, I guess it does have it's rough edges. Meanwhile...don't stallhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Cheers!

lindyman
06-28-2004, 12:26 AM
Based on my rather limited experience with aerobatics, I'd say it's not bad at all. People with more experience will have more to say, and perhaps disagree on some points.

In AEP you get good warning when the stall begins to develop, by the sound of the turbulent airflow, by the visuals of buffeting, and by feel of the stick if you have FF. In fact, when I first experienced it IRL, I was extremely surprised with how familiar it was.

What happens when you ignore the warnings and continue to pull the stick varies wildly from plane to plane, but a sharp flick is not unusual, and is in fact exactly what happened in the plane I did aero training with.

In AEP, as well as in that plane, the solution is to immediately ease the back pressure and apply counter rudder, and you're out of it before you've flicked more than 10-20 degrees.

Some planes, IRL, drop the nose in a straight 1G stall, which no AEP planes that I know of do, but few, if any, drop the nose when stalling in a turn.
_
/Bjorn.

WWMaxGunz
06-28-2004, 01:43 AM
Not a rely to you, Lindy. Just about the thread in general.

There is a VERY GOOD thread on this subject in General Discussion, probably down a
few pages but well worth the the read. Or we can hope the right people come back
here so we don't end up with supposition, etc, taking the subject to extremes and hype.

You can't ride a stall at least for long at least pre-2.01.
You can't compare most General Aviation planes to warbirds either.
In general it is safe to say that fighters in combat had zero use of riding stalls
but then aerial combat IRL differs widely from DF players pulling every lame trick
and exploit possible in new forms of Air Quake.

Go find the thread on stalls in the GD if you don't believe or want to know real things.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-28-2004, 01:54 AM
Careful Yoda, I still have the polaroid of you with a cigarette in your mouth and a can of Victorian Bitter in your mit.

Once again thanks for the assistance.

Most of the time I don't get a warning and do understand the warning signs. The sharp flick happens without warning signs.(like hitting an oil slick on black top)and happens on curves Ive held many times before, without any buffeting

When the spin starts.. opposite rudder works rarely, trying to flick the nose down with sharp elevator movements, throttle at 0/ throttle riding (trying to induce torque roll), all equal zip and a clockwise spiral

With the explanation of game engine and it's original intent, it now makes sense why this happens.
Still, I can't wait for PF and will look forward to the arrival of BoB.

Thank you all for help
Cheers

lindyman
06-28-2004, 03:20 AM
Just curious, but what plane does not give any warning in the early stall stage? All planes I've flown give plenty of warning. I can't help but feel that this is either a stick issue, a stick settings issue, or simply not being sensitive to the signs.
_
/Bjorn.

kostek
06-28-2004, 03:36 AM
Many planes don't give a worning, for example extra 300.
Many gliders don't give a worning 2, for example all versions of Janatar gliders (2b, standard 2, standart 3).
Most of the training planes gives it, it's shaking. I'm not talking about stick, but i feel it on wings, or maybe whole plane is shaking, but I DON'T FEEL IT ON STICK BUT ON MY *** AND BACK.

PE_Tigar
06-28-2004, 03:41 AM
Well, from my limited aerobatics experience (I learned stall and spin recovery in basic pilot training for my PPL, not in my later unofficial aerobatics "lessons") stall is a very much symmetric event as in you fly on high AoA and loose lift more or less simultaneously on both wings. In normal aeroplanes (e.g. ones with COG ahead of COL) nose pitches violently down, you build up speed (by applying elevator down and pushing throttle to the max) and begin pulling out on 10-20 percent above the stall speed. As such, stall is completely absent from FB--there is none, even with the most docile aeroplanes. Spin, however, is there, but only a couple of aeroplanes (Airacobras with more than 50 percent fuel, I-16 with external stores loaded) have unrecoverable flat spin. Cobra with 50 percent fuel has practically unrecoverable spin, because you need at least 2000-3000 meters to recover. This is all if the spin is completely developed, you can "catch" the spin as it starts developing and recover the airplane before it starts really spinning--when you start loosing control, push the nose down and aply aileron onto the side of the falling wing, if that doesn;t work apply the standard pitch down, full throttle, opposite rudder. Also, on Airacobra deploying full flaps marginally helps. On I-16--obviously, jettison stores, than recover, if below 1000 and still spinning, bail. For good spin recovery you need patience, especially with not-so-tame aeroplanes like Airacobra was. The rest of the aeroplanes in the game are more or less recoverable with no big problems, but have in mind that high-wing loading designs (like all FW and Bfs, Mustangs, etc.) are very dangerous when flying with damaged wings. I've seen many FWs pancake after being hit in the wings and stalling lately. Those Ta-152s also spin nicely http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

lindyman
06-28-2004, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kostek:
Most of the training planes gives it, it's shaking. I'm not talking about stick, but i feel it on wings, or maybe whole plane is shaking, but I DON'T FEEL IT ON STICK BUT ON MY *** AND BACK.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What surprised me much with the aero traininer I flew, was that I felt it in the stick first; a slight slight shake. I did definitely not expect that. The stab was positioned such that at the very earliest stage of the stall, the turbulent airflow hit the elevator. Slick.

I haven't flown an Extra, so I can't tell about those. If luck is with me, I'll have a go at a Pitts in a week or so, though.
_
/Bjorn.

lindyman
06-28-2004, 05:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PE_Tigar:
Well, from my limited aerobatics experience (I learned stall and spin recovery in basic pilot training for my PPL, not in my later unofficial aerobatics "lessons") stall is a very much symmetric event as in you fly on high AoA and loose lift more or less simultaneously on both wings. In normal aeroplanes (e.g. ones with COG ahead of COL) nose pitches violently down, you build up speed (by applying elevator down and pushing throttle to the max) and begin pulling out on 10-20 percent above the stall speed. As such, stall is completely absent from FB--there is none, even with the most docile aeroplanes.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, I think, lies the source of the confusion.

The definition of stall, as I was taught both in basic PPL training, and the aero traininig, is when the airflow over the wing becomes turbulent enough that an increase in AoA gives a reduction in lift. This does not mean that anything else happens. You can fly far slower than that, at 1G, you just increase AoA further (which reduces lift and increases drag) and support your altitude with more, much more engine power. Hanging by the prop. It takes some balancing with the rudder to keep it from becoming a spin.

I can do that in AEP. This is not usually a desireable state to be in, though, unless you intend to lose energy (for which a sideslip is both safer and easier, although usually slightly less effective.)

Riding the edge of the stall is riding the AoA just at the maximum possible lift. It's a thin balance. If you pull more, you slow down and lose lift, and you may, depending on plane, flip over (well, in AEP you always flip.)

In what planes can't you do that in AEP? Surely it can't be that my FB installation is the only one it works with.

Or is the whole discussion just one about confusing different ideas of what state the plane is actually in, when we refer to it as being in a stall?
_
/Bjorn.

WUAF_Badsight
06-28-2004, 05:35 AM
a stall doesnt exactly happen in FB

what does happen is a gental wing-over mover

but a stall in the sencse that the plane stops & falls is not in FB

some planes in FB are affected by a spin (or a flat spin) after a stall happens in a large degree

.
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lindyman
06-28-2004, 05:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
a stall doesnt exactly happen in FB
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, it does.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
what does happen is a gental wing-over mover
but a stall in the sencse that the plane stops & falls is not in FB
some planes in FB are affected by a spin (or a flat spin) after a stall happens in a large degree.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you're there, you've beel flying stalled for some time, and pulled further and further. What happens when the plane becomes unable to hold the attitude anymore, due to too much turbulence and far too little lift, differs greatly between aircraft. Note that this AoA is not where the stall begins, it's where it has become impossible to hold.

Many basic trainers drop the nose, because they're designed that way, because it's a safe way to auto recover. Nose-down =&gt; reduced AoA and speed increase, the inexperienced pilot cannot do much harm.

Many other planes flick. Try to go up in a Piper Tomahawk, cut the throttle and maintain altitude with the elevator. You'll feel buffeting (here the stall has begun,) soon you'll hear the stall horn (10 or so knots left until the aircraft loses it,) soon after you'll flip up-side-down and rapidly lose 2000' (if you're good and prepared, more otherwise.)

Even docile planes designed to drop the nose can flick if you pull it over in a sharp turn.
_
/Bjorn.

WWMaxGunz
06-28-2004, 05:47 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=790108504

Bon apetit.

Bernoulli
06-30-2004, 12:18 AM
and here is dessert:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=506105692&p=1

WWMaxGunz
06-30-2004, 08:22 PM
Actually Bernoulli, I think the thread you pointed to is the one I really wanted.
I remember theat first post and farther in there's very good in-depth posts made
by people I find loads of respect for.


Neal

Jettexas
06-30-2004, 11:34 PM
"Most of the time I don't get a warning and do understand the warning signs. The sharp flick happens without warning signs.(like hitting an oil slick on black top)and happens on curves Ive held many times before, without any buffeting"

Vague,

This is your stick settings. Like it was for all my squaddies who complained of the "banana peel" effect until it was brought to their attention as well.
Do a search of this forum for input settings and it'll reveal many good threads on the subject.
Of course the other threads you have been referred to are absolutely correct in the analysis of the way stalls are modelled in the game, but for payability within the game the way it exists- now - you just to make the "banana peel" go away, all you have to do is tweak your input curves a bit.

Good luck,
Hope this helps

96th_Redfish

http://home.austin.rr.com/davislanedavis/il2sig4.jpg

Snow_Wolf_
06-30-2004, 11:51 PM
This is from the Flight Training manual 4th Edition Revised


and I Quote
"A stall is a loss of lift and increase in drag that occurs when an aircraft is flown at an angle of attack greater than the angle for maximum lift.

Why does a Wing Stall

The lift generated by a wing is dependent upon a smooth accelerated airflow over the wing. At moderate angles of attack the airflow near the trailing edge of the wing becomes mildly turbulent. As the angle of attack increases, the turbulent air progresses forward towards the leading edge of the wing until stalling angle is reached. At that point the downwash and the pressure differential are greatly reduced and a loss of lift results. Due to the loss of lift and increase in drag the remaining lift is insyfficient to support the aeroplane, and the wing stalls.

Symptoms of an Approaching stall

1. decrase in the effectiveness of the control especially elevator and aileron control : the "live" resistance to pressures on the controls becomes progressively less and less as speed decrases

2. Audible or visual stall warning devices fitted in most aircraft are activated prior to the stall

3.Buffeting (the beating effect of turbulent airflow on the aircraft's structure, which can be heard and or felt) varies in intensity and different types of aircraft

4. Loss of height, despite reward movement of the elevator control. "

End quote

hope this helps little

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"Master the art of Speed without ever getting a Ticket"

WWMaxGunz
06-30-2004, 11:52 PM
One thing to keep in mind, those threads were written playing different patches/versions
than we have now. 2.0 at latest.

For me in sims so far there are two major stall warning signs:

1) The plane is not doing what I think it should.
2) My speed is bleeding more than I think it should.


Neal

Bernoulli
07-01-2004, 06:24 PM
To the guy who said that he couldnt tell when the stall was coming: I think it may be a stick sensitivity issue (though my sliders are all at 100% because I installed rudder pedals and only recently figured out how to adjust the sensitivitiy of the stick using the conf.ini), as well as a sound settings issue. Even if you cant "feel" a decrease in control effectiveness (ie. the stick gets less responsive, and your needing to hold a lot of deflection on the stick) you should still be able to hear to change in sound of the airflow over the aircraft, you should hear an increase in wind noise, and also some buffetting, if you dont you may have some sound volumes too low and others too high.

Bernie

BlakJakOfSpades
07-02-2004, 12:44 PM
what altitude are we talkin here? in my experience, the higher the altitude, the less warning signs i get. when im flyin at treetop level i get plenty of warning before stalls, but when im dogfighting a p-51 at 30, 000 ft in a ta-152 ive been known to go into a spin all the way down to 15,000 ft where i then deploy my gear and flaps and flatten out. perhaps your lack of warning signs are more at high altitude? hope that helps someone at least.

pegon1
07-02-2004, 09:16 PM
when training spins for my ppl in c-152, my istructor tought me to keep the vings stalled to prevent the a/c from picking up speed, vhile stopping the rotation vith rudder. Vhen the rotation stops, slowly release back pressure and the plane flies itself out of the stall. this works well in the cesna, but is it reccomended practice.

Fear1

Flygflottilj16_Sulan
07-04-2004, 12:03 PM
I don´t believe stalls are "too much" or "allways end up in flatspin"... Ok I agree many stalls end up in a spin, why? Well because you are pulling a 90% turn too hard!!!

Try stalling around wings level, that doesnt allways end up in spins...

p1ngu666
07-04-2004, 12:37 PM
u always drop one wing, not both.
p38 cant do a 4 leaf clover in il2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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BinaryFalcon
07-04-2004, 08:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The definiton of a spin is that only one wing stalls while the other one remains with a stable airflow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite.

In a spin, both wings are stalled, however, one wing is stalled more than the other.

In short, an aircraft can be stalled at any speed, all that is required is that you exceed the critical angle of attack for the wing.

Because of that, stall speed will change with conditions such as angle of bank and G loading. It's also impossible to stall an aircraft (wing) at 0G, as the wing is not producing lift at that point (weight is effectively zero, therefore lift is zero, which has a nice side benefit of making induced drag zero, which lowers total drag significantly and ultimately means better acceleration).

IL2-chuter
07-04-2004, 08:43 PM
I've been trying to reconcile the stall behavior of the 109's IRL vs Game. IRL all pilots report minor aileron snatching as the only warning in clean cinfig and no warning at all dirty. The nose and left wing (because of right hand turning prop left wing root has a slightly greater AOA) drop about 10 deg in both cases and is easily corrected resulting in little altitude loss. In game you get buffetting and then Monster 90 deg right wing drop. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

As an aside, allied comparison reports indicate the P-51C easily out turned the 109G-6 at all altitudes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I should just kick back and enjoy . . . http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"I fly only Full Real in Il2 Forgotten Battles." -Mark Donohue

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2004, 02:00 AM
This has turned out to be quite a good read.


Update....Found a link (in forum), to some modified FFB files and as soon as they were put in (originals backed up) the excessive and very easy stalling has stopped. This is with the pilot doing the same (MS FFB2 stick) manouvering as previous. Pack 2 seems the better. Hammerheads are now possible as well as controlled stall in an effort to escape and overcome the enemy. Flat spins are now rare, not, everytime and when an enemy plane passes from the opposite direction at 300 off my port wing, in smooth clear sky.......no buffeting

&lt;insert image of a happy pig in mud here&gt;

Trouble is now... trim seems to be upset and not quite working correct. Hits trim point then porpoises or bounces.