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Mescof1
07-20-2004, 10:32 PM
Just tried the Spits (41 and 42) and they don't overheat in the Desert Map like they used to. Must have been a fix in the patch!

Mescof1
07-20-2004, 10:32 PM
Just tried the Spits (41 and 42) and they don't overheat in the Desert Map like they used to. Must have been a fix in the patch!

Zayets
07-21-2004, 12:06 AM
I was using full military power on a P38 for about 10 minutes without overheating!That's cool!

Zayets out

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alarmer
07-21-2004, 12:17 AM
Maybe even too cool? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

faustnik
07-21-2004, 12:21 AM
Uhhh, I could not get the Spit IX, P-38, P-47 or P-51 to overheat with full throttle and WEP. Could we have a big bug?

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VVS-Manuc
07-21-2004, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Uhhh, I could not get the Spit IX, P-38, P-47 or P-51 to overheat with full throttle and WEP. Could we have a big bug?

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Overheat problem solved http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 01:37 AM
they didnt have a overheat problem B4

once over 3K they could take full power ....... without consequence



ok , ok i know all about there overheat under 3K , but if the spits get this fantastic ability ..... then why not LW planes also ?

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tfu_iain1
07-21-2004, 02:09 AM
oh great, now theres no overheating at all. 1C does have a bit of a tendency to 'overcorrect' these things a bit...

reload2000
07-21-2004, 02:34 AM
You guys seriouse? I flew the P51 and P47 for several hours this afternoon and they overheated plenty of times. You guys are dreaming.

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Mike8686
07-21-2004, 03:03 AM
nope, i tested their overheat compared to other aircraft and its a huge gap. Example, in level flight 2000m, boost on 110%, D9 overheats in 5 mins. Same situation for mustang, overheat came in 18 minutes.

SeaFireLIV
07-21-2004, 03:23 AM
The whole thing still smells to me of Oleg being tired of the whining and now just boosting everything, with little care. It`s as if he`s saying, "You don`t like this? Fine have what you want, with interest, I don`t care any more!"

I know I`ll be flamed, but that`s how it seems. I hope I`m wrong. But i`m still testing... so the Jury is still out.

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Zayets
07-21-2004, 03:33 AM
Yes , I think so.I said previously that I never complain , nor I will from now on about any FM and their characteristics.Maybe I am a complete ****** when it comes about FM and stuff.But this is not the reason.My reason is because me, as player, spend months to learn a plane , then comes Mr. Whino and force 1C to change radically the plane and all my "work" is down the drain. And that SUCKS!You hear that people?

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Matz0r
07-21-2004, 06:04 AM
It's a shame, the Spit will not overheat now. I ran a test on the desert map at 1000m ASL - throttle back when overheat flashing. Ran the spits forever, the water temp would stop rising after a while and even go back down.

Noticed that the P40E also runs very cool here, never overheat, though temperature was still rising albeit slowly when I aborted the test.
http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/de_water_comparsion.jpg



Old versus new SpitVb:
http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/de_water_spitvsold.jpg



The A6M reaches huge temperatures, LA5FN and P47D-22 who seem exactly the same are also high:
http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/de_water_all.jpg


http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/de_oilin_all.jpg

http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/fw3.jpg

faustnik
07-21-2004, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The whole thing still smells to me of Oleg being tired of the whining and now just boosting everything, with little care. It`s as if he`s saying, "You don`t like this? Fine have what you want, with interest, I don`t care any more!"

I know I`ll be flamed, but that`s how it seems. I hope I`m wrong. But i`m still testing... so the Jury is still out.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you might be taking it too far Seafire. Maybe it is just an error.

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DangerForward
07-21-2004, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
Uhhh, I could not get the Spit IX, P-38, P-47 or P-51 to overheat with full throttle and WEP. Could we have a big bug?

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I overheated the P47 in about five or six minutes of low level flying with the rad closed, full throttle. It was on the Normandy map though.

DangerForward

hughlb2
07-21-2004, 11:26 AM
How and where did you get those graphs Matz0r, they kickass!. Is this a program? are there more types of data that can be analysed - turn rate, top speed etc.?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/sonar.gif

Matz0r
07-21-2004, 11:55 AM
The data comes from the devicelink, see devicelink.txt in your IL2 folder. To record it I use software I've written and then I feed the data to a plotter program.

And yes, there are lots of variables to record. Most of them are only available offline though.

http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/fw3.jpg

faustnik
07-21-2004, 11:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DangerForward:

I overheated the P47 in about five or six minutes of low level flying with the rad closed, full throttle. It was on the Normandy map though.

DangerForward<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's good news DangerForward. I tested with everything on auto.

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DangerForward
07-21-2004, 12:10 PM
I couldn't get the Spit to overheat on the Normandy map, but I did get it to overheat on the desert map after a long time. I mainly flew level, but later I did some tight circles and high angle climbs and got it to overheat faster. Flying level the rads barely openned, but in a steep climb they came open pretty fast.

On the Normandy map you would probably have to dogfight it pretty hard to get it to overheat.

DangerForward

Mescof1
07-21-2004, 07:21 PM
I hope my original post wasn't misunderstood! I wasn't complaining about the Spits not overheating so much in the desert. I had previously experimented with them and couldn't even fly for 3 minutes with radiator fully open and at 60% throttle without overheating and a real problem in cooling them down.

I'm speaking at flying at sea level. I had no such problems with the early P39 or P40E or 109G2; although the 110G did seem to overheat.

I like what they did in the patch as I love the Spits and like to use them on the desert map. I havn't tested the Hawker yet but hope it performs as well.

Good job on patch.

Thks

Mescoff

WTE_Galway
07-21-2004, 08:12 PM
just as a matter of interest

the RAAF runnng Mk Vc and MkVIII spits at Darwin, Moresby and Moratai had a LOT of overheat problems with Spitfires and they lost more MkVc's at Darwin from engine failure then from enemy fire ... the Spitfire was basically totally unsuited to the tropical conditions

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2004, 08:18 PM
Sadly, it's par for the course. instead of just doing it right, we get "over corrections", huffy sarcastic, "Oh fine, well let's just eliminate the problem altogether, why don't we..."

And, surprise...net bonus to the Allies.

I bet the 109F4s still overheat if you don't manage the throttle and radiator...as they should, mind you... but not if other planes are just getting a pass on the whole deal.

VW-IceFire
07-21-2004, 09:13 PM
Looks like its not quite right yet. Before, the Spits were crippled in the Desert. You HAD to be above 3000 to use the engine at all. Otherwise, 50% throttle, 50% pitch/rpm control would still fry the engine.

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BennyMoore
07-21-2004, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The whole thing still smells to me of Oleg being tired of the whining and now just boosting everything, with little care. It`s as if he`s saying, "You don`t like this? Fine have what you want, with interest, I don`t care any more!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. And it occurred to me the moment I fired the new fifties offline and blew up a Zero flying straight and level as it flew across my sights at three hundred and fifty kilometers per hour.

[This message was edited by BennyMoore on Wed July 21 2004 at 09:46 PM.]

WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 10:40 PM
this overheat (or lack of) was EXACTLY how the v2.02 leak Spitfire performed

total joke BS

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WTE_Galway
07-21-2004, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The whole thing still smells to me of Oleg being tired of the whining and now just boosting everything, with little care. It`s as if he`s saying, "You don`t like this? Fine have what you want, with interest, I don`t care any more!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. And it occurred to me the moment I fired the new fifties offline and blew up a Zero flying straight and level as it flew across my sights and three hundred and fifty kilometers per hour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


well yes but we all know that more arcady is more realistic ... otherwise movies like Pearl harbour would just be jingoistic rubbish

jazman777
07-22-2004, 12:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I know I`ll be flamed, but that`s how it seems. I hope I`m wrong. But i`m still testing... so the Jury is still out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I normally browse the Ubi forums with images off (easy to do with Opera, just toggle a button). Tonight I'm browsing with the images on. So I haven't seen your whiner sig image until today, it's a hoot.

Monson74
07-22-2004, 02:40 AM
Would it be possible to obtain some real data on these a/c & their overheating tendencies. Speed, altitude, air-moist & temp must be factors too right?

S!

Monson


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BennyMoore
07-23-2004, 12:10 AM
No, it's all just whining, so it doesn't matter even if we do have data. Apparently the only way to get results is having enough people complain, and even then it will be overdone.

hop2002
07-23-2004, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Would it be possible to obtain some real data on these a/c & their overheating tendencies. Speed, altitude, air-moist & temp must be factors too right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sadly, no-one seems interested in the real data.

I have the cooling report on the Spitfire LF IX running at 25 lbs boost (considerably more power than we have in game).

They tested at 3000 ft and 13,500ft, with radiators fully open, and again with them fully closed. They tested at maximum speed for 5 minutes, and at cruising speed for 5 minutes.

They reported on the coolant and oil temperatures in temperate and tropical conditions.

In none of these tests did the Spit IX come close to overheating. At 3000 ft, 25 lbs boost in tropical conditions with radiators closed, it didn't come close to overheating.

The tests were carried out with 10 minutes at cruise power, followed immediately by 5 minutes at max power, so the engine would have reached it's max temp in cruise before the full power runs started.

The only thing that did cause overheating was to climb at maximum power (which is considerably higher than the maximum power in game) from 2,000 to 32,000ft with the radiators shut.

Doing that, the engine began to overheat at 25,000ft under temperate summer conditions, and at 12,000 ft under tropical summer conditions.

faustnik
07-23-2004, 11:13 AM
Hop,

RAF74_Jazzman sent me similar data. It showed that the recommended boost duration at +18 boost was 10 minutes. It is interesting that this is the same time as recommended MW50 duration on LW fighters. Maybe it is the Spit IX that is correct and some of the LW a/c are overheating too quickly?

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jugent
07-23-2004, 04:28 PM
Seafire you are very wrong, have you seen Maddox reacting to the criticism and correct the Fw cockpit, or is this also "No facts" daggerstabbing.

Have the overrated climb-rate of the La7 beeing corrected, this is "facts" that is taken from very secret figures, that dont correspond to other open sources.

hop2002
07-24-2004, 12:55 PM
Since pictures tell a thousand words, courtesy of Neil Sterling:

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/282_1090694499_climbcropped.jpg

"Radiator suitibility" of greater than 1 means maximum temperatures have not been reached, less than 1 mean they have been exceeded.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>RAF74_Jazzman sent me similar data. It showed that the recommended boost duration at +18 boost was 10 minutes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The limits for maximum boost on the Spit I have seen say 5 mins for maximum boost. I'd be really , really gratefull if you could show some evidence of 10 mins http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cooling was not the reason for the time limit on boost for the Spit IX. The Merlin 61 was limited to 15 lbs for 5 mins. The Merlin 66 was limited to 18 lbs for 5 mins early on, then to 25 lbs for 5 minutes. The power differences were in the order of 400 hp, yet the time limit remained the same.

Cooling wasn't the problem.

The limits were imposed to avoid excessive wear.

This from guidance issued to Mustang pilots during the war:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is often asked what the consequences will be if the 5-minute limit at Take-off Power is exceeded. Another frequent inquiry is how long a period must be allowed after the specified time limit has elapsed until Take-off Power can be used. These questions are difficult to answer, since the time limit specified does not mean that engine damage will occur if the limit is exceeded. Instead, the limit means that the total operating time at high power should be kept to a reasonable minimum in the interest of prolonging engine life.

It is generally accepted that high-power operation of an engine results in increased wear and necessitates more frequent overhaul than low-power operation. However, it is apparent that a certain percentage of operating time must be at full power. The engine manufacturer allows for this in qualification tests in which much of the running is done at Take-off Power to prove ability to withstand the resulting loads. It is established in these runs that the engine will handle sustained high power without damage. Nevertheless, it is still the aim of the manufacturer and to the best interest of the pilot to keep within reasonable values the amount of high-power time accumulated in the field. The most satisfactory method for accomplishing this is to establish time limits that will keep pilots constantly aware of the desire to hold high-power periods to the shortest period that the flight plan will allow, so that the total accumulated time and resulting wear can be kept to a minimum. How the time at high power is accumulated is of secondary importance; i.e., it is no worse from the standpoint of engine wear to operate at Take-off Power for one hour straight than it is to operate in twelve 5-minute stretches, provided engine temperatures and pressures are within limits. In fact, the former procedure may even be preferable, as it eliminates temperature cycles which also promote engine wear. Thus if flight conditions occasionally require exceeding time limits, this should not cause concern so long as constant effort is made to keep the over-all time at Take-off Power to the minimum practicable.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

5 minutes at WEP in a Spit is not a hard and fast limit, just a guideline.

That's not necessarily true for all aircraft. 109s, for example, with radiator flaps closed, would boil their coolant in a couple of minutes.

In other words, a 109 could not maintain 5 minutes at full boost with radiators closed. The Spit, which didn't fully close it's radiators, could.

faustnik
07-24-2004, 04:05 PM
Hop,

Please check PM.

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SeaFireLIV
07-24-2004, 04:31 PM
hop2002, just seen your report. I noticed this in the other thread where you posted. Thanks.

If I am wrong then I freely admit it. If this is realistic, then good and great!

FW-Raptor
07-24-2004, 06:41 PM
Galway you are totally right! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The spitfire is like us brits used to the rain and cool temps, doesnt like seeing a lot of sun too! :P

A totally British Plane im glad to say http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif