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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:53 PM
I've noticed over time that there seams to be two kinds of people in IL-2 forums....
Those who love the P-47 and those who hate it.
Personally, the plane is a mystery to me.
At medium to low altitude it's a bad turning plane so you can't even consider getting into a turning dogfight.
It's climb rate is somewhat sub-par which hinders it's ability to B & Z.

Maybe some of you P-47 fans could tell me why you like the plane and what you think it's merits are.
I'd like to get to know the plane but I'm not sure how to USE the plane.
Is it strictly a ground attack rig?
Bomber escort?
Or can you actually dogfight in it?

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 04:53 PM
I've noticed over time that there seams to be two kinds of people in IL-2 forums....
Those who love the P-47 and those who hate it.
Personally, the plane is a mystery to me.
At medium to low altitude it's a bad turning plane so you can't even consider getting into a turning dogfight.
It's climb rate is somewhat sub-par which hinders it's ability to B & Z.

Maybe some of you P-47 fans could tell me why you like the plane and what you think it's merits are.
I'd like to get to know the plane but I'm not sure how to USE the plane.
Is it strictly a ground attack rig?
Bomber escort?
Or can you actually dogfight in it?

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:04 PM
Good question.

I really want to love the Jug but I just die so fast when I am flying it.
I try to BnZ properly but my speed bleeds off so bad that I end up stalling in turns and then get shredded.

Any Jug drivers have advice or do we need to wait for the patch to fix some of this?

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:05 PM
Cool_Hand_Luke_ wrote:
- I've noticed over time that there seams to be two
- kinds of people in IL-2 forums....
- Those who love the P-47 and those who hate it.
- Personally, the plane is a mystery to me.
- At medium to low altitude it's a bad turning plane
- so you can't even consider getting into a turning
- dogfight.
- It's climb rate is somewhat sub-par which hinders
- it's ability to B & Z.
-
- Maybe some of you P-47 fans could tell me why you
- like the plane and what you think it's merits are.
- I'd like to get to know the plane but I'm not sure
- how to USE the plane.
- Is it strictly a ground attack rig?
- Bomber escort?
- Or can you actually dogfight in it?

Well, I love to do ground attack in it. At least for now. I am pretty certain that there will be improvements in the coming patch to it's turning ability, but the zoom-climb, dive characteristics are what I am hoping are improved. I know that it was a B&Z dogfighter (agood one) in the real world, and would like to fly it as such.



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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:08 PM
What I do (in DF servers w/ full real) is take off from the farthest base I can and use the distance to gain alt. like mad. With the P-47 your altitude is your life. I usually level out around 3000-6000 meters, depending on where the fighting is on the server, I try to keep a good 2000 meters over the action. I keep the plane in a constant slight bank allowing me to see the action below, which is half the battle. When I see a target is setting up I make my dive, keeping throttle up because you'll need that speed later. You dive until your 100 meters out of your convergence range, put the target below the nose and let rip the 8 .50's. If all goes right, you'll leave the enemy a smoldering wreck, or severly crippled. After your gun run, level out and throw the trottle forward to 110%. Stay level until you are a safe distance away from the furball to start your climb again. Basic BnZ will keep you alive. If you ever find yourself climbing and discover an enemy on your 6, level out and again, throw the trottle as far as it will go. If he's too close to outrun, go into a dive. The P-47 can outrun almost any enemy in a level race and it WILL beat any plane in a dive unless it's the ME-262, in which case just keep jinking until he passes you, then you aim your guns in the general direction and hope for a "golden bb" shot into one of his engines. This is how I use the P-47 in online DF servers, but if it's not full real and there are external views enabled then don't even waste your time trying to BnZ, you'll be done before you start. Hope this helps.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:20 PM
The Razorback version is not good for a full on turning dogfight a med/low altitudes the bubble canopy 47D is somewhat better but not much. The strength of these a/c in my view are their abilities to dive at great speed attack with their heavy firepower and use their energy to zoom back up again for another diving attack. You need altitude for this. I found they can more readily dogfight with a 190 than a 109. I think in any air to air encounter if you are flying one of these a/c at med to low altitude and you come across a 109 or 190 and they have a height advantage use the old addage "discretion is the better part of valor" and get the hell out of there!

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:38 PM
Shifty has given the perfect tactic for dogfighting the P-47. This is exactly how I use it and I love the JUG. Sure it takes more work to down a plane but anyone can get kills in Yaks, 109s, LAs, and Hurricanes. But for me it is far more rewarding getting kills with the P-47. Although Shifty says its not as good in medium settings I still find I can acheive success but I must get even higher.


Another thing is to take your time. If you dive on a plane and its not right or he breaks off, do not chase him. Since he broke he lost valuable energy so just zoom up and repeat.


In my opinion it is one of the finest planes you can use if you are a seasoned pilot for the full real servers.
And if you got a squadmate flying a P-47 as well the two of you together can be devestating.


The main reason I love it I guess is because I'am a American. I was dissapointed at first with Jug because I felt it could be better and just might be in the patch, I have learned to adapt my style to it and been in love ever since /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


She takes a backseat to the P-51 though as soon as she arrives /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


S~
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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:45 PM
Good morning havok missed u on last nite u going to bed early in your old age, at work right now checking post's but havok and shifty are right to be succesful in a p47 you must stay above your oppenent and dont do dumb things that bleed your energy off, sometimes i get to agressive and dive on someone than try to turn with them, that gets me killed, no i dive if i dont have the shot u climb back up, its not worth it, me and havok working together in p47's we can down alot of planes, always trying to stay on same level and close to each other. I love the plane but it has to be one of the hardest planes in game to fly, but that is what makes getting a kill in it so satisfing, If they ever fix it the only 2 things in this plane i would really like to see is actual speeds that it could perform in ww2, 350 cruising nad 433mph top speed. And to have its gun have the devestating firepower they were known for. Those 2 things would make my year, i dont care if they fix roll rates, or stall rates, that would be nice, just give me better guns and speed and the p47 will compete with any plane in this game in the hands of a seasoned pilot.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:50 PM
yep 8 50cals.....ahhhh. I find the approach explained here is the best. Get a couple of kilometres above the action and dive on in on a target with his situational awareness on the low side, and let the 50 cals do the job. The trick is, no matter what the result, get back out of there. Don;t muck about turning around or pulling fancy maneuvers, just climb back up on max throttle and repeat the above recipe.

On a completely different point, the other reason I like the P-47 is because it's fun to skin. It has a huge nose for artwork, and was often painted in relatively garish colour schemes, so it makes for a large, bright canvas. The skin itself has some weird characteristics, but the results are worth it.

One other aspect of the P-47: The ammo load! If you're not the best at deflection shooting, you can just open up a lot earlier then you think you might need and "walk" the rounds onto the target. It's a great airframe for improving your gunnery. This I think is the unsung advantage of the 50 cal armed aircraft. For relative newbies it's easier to hit a target IMHO.

cheers,
Tony
(flying as "wombat" on HL)


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oh yeah, and I'm a Whirlwind whiner too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 05:52 PM
Cool_Hand_Luke_ wrote:

- At medium to low altitude it's a bad turning plane
- so you can't even consider getting into a turning
- dogfight.

No American fighter was particularly well suited for low, slow turn fighting. The P-47 is a BnZer all the way and, as mentioned, that's from high up. It's even better in teams.

- It's climb rate is somewhat sub-par which hinders
- it's ability to B & Z.

Well, in RL that changed with the addition of the paddle blade prop which I don't think is modeled in FB. But even if it is, the P-47 isn't gonna climb like a G2. We're spoiled by the climb rate of planes like that.

I just wish I could be good in it since it's my favorite fighter of the war. Maybe I'll give it another more serious try after the patch.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:00 PM
S! I love the jug to. I practice with it every day, It is the best diver that i know of. To the point, Im deffanitly no expert, im still fairly new. I dont use in a dog fight server very ofton because the plane is not very manuverable, usless in a dog fight. I know it wasn't built for dog fighting, but in real live you could dog fight in it. Not very well mayby. But atleast you would stand a chance.
About Bleeding, E is very important, obviosly. This plane can lose E very very fast. I have noticed it bleeds E the most when the plane sarts to shake when your turning vertical or horizontle. My point is you have to be light on the stick. Don't get exsited and pull to hard.
When you dive down to attack a target and destroy it or miss, head back up, but be easy on the stick. If you didn't pull on the stick to hard, you will find yourself at the same alt or higher, if you didn't dive for to long.
Thats all I know, I havent' yet been able to bring the Jug back to base in a DF server lol.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:01 PM
Three words. Altitude, altitude, altitude!

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 06:25 PM
Three more words: FLAPS FLAPS FLAPS...Combat flaps are very useful to me and they can be deployed at speeds excess 800kph. I use them just to get me through a sharp turn, or climb after a steap dive, or get her over in a loop. Only for a very short time though and then I raise them. Pratice this and you will see that it can be very effective for you.


Also if you climb her to the max and she is about to fall over and put you into a stall deploy the combat flaps and roll over with rudder, the flaps will keep you stable and prevent the stall from occuring.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:04 PM
What everyone else said - BnZ. P-47 is my preferred ride when facing the super climb K4s and Fw-190s. Moreso, get two P-47s together and you've got quite a force! Also, you have to lead a lot with the guns - best shot is almost from the top of your target, where it's widest. Then more shots will hit & do damage.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:16 PM
Salute

The reason people have a problem flying the P-47 is that it is modelled incorrectly.

It's rollrate is about 1/2 what it should be.

Also its dive acceleration is slower than it should be. All aircraft in the game seem to accelerate in a dive at the same rate, according to my tests. Which shouldn't be. After the first few seconds, a P-47 should pull away from almost anything but a 262.

Historically it was a bad aircraft to be caught low and slow in. It had a poor low speed turn and roll.

However at higher speeds, its rollrate didn't degrade like other aircraft, and its elevator response remained good.

I am hoping to see an improvement in the rollrate at least for the patch.

Despite the negatives, I fly it quite a bit on the dogfight servers, and practice all the techniques suggested above, plus others.

Ie.

1) Load maximum 50% fuel. Alternately load 25% fuel, and take a drop tank. This reduces your ammo, you can't take the extra ammo option, but means you will lighter when combat comes after jettisoning the tank.

2) Climb to altitude, minimum 4,000 meters. Set your radiator to position 2, throttle to 90%. That way your engine will be nice and cool when combat starts.

3) Use diving attacks, and then zoom vertically to regain your altitude. Use "Hammerhead" turns to reverse at the top of your zoom. A Hammerhead is done by zooming vertically, and holding the zoom till you are right at stalling point or past it. For the Jug this can be as low as 100 kph. At the top of your zoom, roll either right or left, and apply full rudder in the same direction. Your nose and tail should swap positions and you will find yourself facing downwards, back from where you were coming. One thing about Hammerheads, they are dangerous in that you are very vulnerable at the top of your zoom. So make sure you have no enemy at that altitude, and make sure no enemy can follow your zoom. Use WEP in your zooms. Reduce throttle when you dive back down again.

4) If you get caught at low altitude by a 109, do not try to turn with it. Your only chance is to use a rolling scissors to try to get it to overshoot. If you are up against a 190, then you can beat it by using a combination of quick zooms, rolls and turns using flaps. Hit WEP and keep it on throughout the fight, even when you get an overheat message. The one good thing about the Jug is that the engine will take a lot of abuse and keep on ticking.

5) Take any opportunity to shoot, especially if you have extra ammo loaded. You have a lot of ammo, and you can afford to waste some. "Walk" your shots in on target. In the Razorback, the gunsight view is the worst in the game, with terrible defection view. (don't think this is accurate, although Oleg says it is) One way to deal with this is to roll onto your back, and that way your target will be approaching from the top of your windshield instead of below your eyeline.

6) At all times, practice energy retention, ie. convert speed into altitude, and don't pull hard turns. Use the vertical to do reverses and the vector roll which others have mentioned. Ie. when your opponent starts a turn, don't follow, instead, zoom in a slow loop and roll in the opposite direction from the way he is turning. As he completes his circle, you will come down on his tail.

The Jug should be able to deal with its opponents if it is flown right. Unfortunately right now, it is at a disadvantage. Hopefully that will be addressed.


Cheers RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:36 PM
great stuff.

I also find it is a great teamwork aircraft - get a couple p47's working together and it can be quite exciting.

S!
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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:55 PM
Buzzsaw, Shifty & Havock hit the nail on the head. Basically I do what they do but I also use trim in turns...you just have to remember with the trim and the flaps to reset them to raised & neutral ASAP after the turn..or better yet before you are through the turn. If you leave them extended you will loose speed and in any plane but the Jug in particular SPEED IS LIFE...
The upcoming patch will make the Jug a better performer but even as it is it is a serious threat in the hands of someone who has taken the time to learn it. I often just set a QM with no enemies...just me...and fly the plane..I put it through it's paces...practice controlled stalls, hammerheads etc.... Learn the plane which ever one it is...and combat is not always the best place to do that...

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XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 07:58 PM
Tactics. The best JUG riders don't go it alone and ALWAYS use energy BnZ attacks. Use your outstanding dive speed to make diving attacks and climb back up flip roll back down and do more damage. The patched P-47's .50cals and BnZ has already been shown to be the only effective way to fly it. S!

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Message Edited on 07/30/03Ô 11:59AM by UCLANUPE

Message Edited on 07/30/0312:03PM by UCLANUPE

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:45 PM
The thing with the P47 tactics described here is that they'd be just as effective in any other plane in the game - possibly with the exception of the very slow planes. High altitude, tag team B&Z, engaging only when you are assured of causing damage, and backing off when you're not - this is fairly elementary stuff. Just about every pilot who made it out of the war alive practised these tactics no matter what they flew and who they flew with.

The only reason they're proper P47 tactics is because _nothing else works_. Other planes can mix it up on the deck. The P39/FW190 make for good energy/angles fighters. But the 47 is alone in that if you try and do anything other than engage from superior E state and run away if it looks like going badly, you're toast. It's worth bearing in mind that a great deal of the 47s success was achieved by simply attacking in great numbers with an altitude advantage, and by practising excellent team tactics. Fight in any manner other than that and you're basically stuffed.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 08:57 PM
The P-47 is an excellent example of a plane that performed terrifically in reality but is unsuited for online video game-land. The style of combat in this game is just not what real combat was like.

The video game fighting style also allows subpar planes, like the I-16, to perform markedly better than they ever did in real combat.


The most "realistic" experience I've had flying the 47 in FB is offline, at 7500 meters, going against a bunch of 190D9s.

Tweaking the flight model isn't going to help much, since the online style of fighting will never change--so don't expect the patch to solve anything.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 09:01 PM
I agree with most of this thread. The P-47 as modeled in IL2 has a horrible roll rate. I have read that even though the P-47 weighed from 6 to 10 tons depending on the variant, pilots were extremely surprised that it had a roll rate comparible to planes half its size. Also, in IL2 the P-47 is way too easy to stall in a turn. One of the greatest things about the P-47 was that it was a very forgiving plane that was easy to handle unlike in IL2. Also, I may be wrong on this but it seems that when you fire the P-47's 8 .50 cal guns the plane shouldn't shake and shimmy so much. I mean how much movement could a .50 cal guns recoil cause to a 10 ton plane? And since when you are firing, guns on both side of the plane fire, shouldn't this cancel out much of the recoil?

But do not get me wrong, while I think the fight model of the P-47 needs improvement, the model is amazing, and I love flying it. I mean what fighter plane in WWII could dish out more firepower, take more damage, or had a more powerful engine than the P-47.

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 11:09 PM
As for dishing out more damage a FW190 with the two gunpods with 2 guns each (I think they're mk108's) would probably do the trick./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:18 AM
Clint is correct about the P-47's tactics.

I've been a dedicated Jug pilot for most of my time in FB. However, a couple nights ago, after one flat spin to many and a nasty argument spawned by it, I decided it was time to try a different aircraft. I picked up the 190D-9 for a flight. I was untouchable.

In three flights, I was able to down three aircraft, and one from a situation where he had 2000m altitude advantage, and I started with flaps and gear fully down, bleeding off airspeed for landing. Since I have been flying the 190, I have only stalled one time, and recovered from that stall in only around 100m.

In short, using the very tactics I learned on the P-47, I was able to take an aircraft I had very little flying time on, and proceeded to immediatly dominate battles the way I was never able to in the P-47.

While I love the plane dearly, in Forgotten Battles, the Thunderbolt is an aircraft simply not worth flying.

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

Message Edited on 07/30/0306:22PM by HarryVoyager

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 12:40 AM
With the 08 patch the P-47 can match the FW-190 in a 1v1. The planes seem to handle about the same give or take and it can be a very entertaining QB to have 16 P-47's vs 16 FW-190's.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 01:40 AM
Cool_Hand_Luke_ wrote:
- I've noticed over time that there seams to be two
- kinds of people in IL-2 forums....
- Those who love the P-47 and those who hate it.

No, there is a third category, including me, of people who are too vague to remember what it was like flying the P-47. I've been in a tent in the middle of nowhere (Pickering, North Yorkshire, England) for two weeks, and I haven't played FB for about a month.

Anyway, please be quiet, I'm really tired, and I need sleep. You're making too much noise.

Philips CDRW

Posting vacuous messages since 2002

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:12 AM
spacemenow wrote:
I may be wrong on this but it seems that
- when you fire the P-47's 8 .50 cal guns the plane
- shouldn't shake and shimmy so much. I mean how much
- movement could a .50 cal guns recoil cause to a 10
- ton plane? And since when you are firing, guns on
- both side of the plane fire, shouldn't this cancel
- out much of the recoil?


I read an account from a Jug pilot in a magazine titled P-47 Thunderbolt that said the recoil from the 50s was so strong that pilots had to make sure they had enough speed when doing ground attacks because the recoil would actually slow down the plane causing a stall if they began firing without enough speed.. I would find the article and quote it directly but i just got in from job#2 and I am just too tired.. But the recoil on 8 50 cals is nothing to sneeze at...even for a 6 ton behemoth like the P-47.

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XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:17 AM
sasKuatch wrote:
- As for dishing out more damage a FW190 with the two
- gunpods with 2 guns each (I think they're mk108's)
- would probably do the trick.



Your thinking of the 190A8

the pods are mk103 not the "puny little" mk108's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

to say a pair of mk103 "will do the trick" is an understatement


check the photo for comparison of a mk103 with a .50 cal



http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SgAHA0gXAod3BKw19!arygqA5dMWLcwm4J7gALgcRNNV!o!rv oZ53hcr1hlEz!Kp3kzGE*pKp7J*IEwmEFIUxyP7k4xN1MXw9X* 9KEhUs7Y8og7PalELXQ/aircraftrounds.jpg


Message Edited on 07/31/0304:51AM by WTE_Galway

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 02:00 PM
I think the Jug is better at B&Z than the Fw190, because of it's huge gun spread. In the 190 IMO it's much harder to touch your target, especially if you are using the D version which only has 2 teeny weeny MG151/20. But with the Jug huge firepower and spread, it's real easy to destroy a plane in the first pass. Also I don't find it to have much recoil at all in game, I think it's a very stable gun platform compared to many other planes, Also forward view is much better than on the 190s, which helps for deflection shots, and you are not bothered by the muzzle flash of the noze MGs (which are pretty useless) like in the 190s.

I haven't used the jug much but yet managed to fly it very successfully in scripted servers where vulching is allowed.

I really have no clue what people are complaining about armament wise. Roll rate is another matter and should be
fixed.

I hope the Jug won't become ├╝ber after the patch. This would suck, as it's never been known to be the ultimate dogfighter, or any kind of good dogfighter. I've never read a pilot account of a jug pilot turning with another plane. Those who really have american bias and want to turnfight can still use the P51, and let the Jug be used as it really was.

Nic

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Message Edited on 07/31/0303:02PM by nicolas10

Zayets
07-31-2003, 02:42 PM
Jug is just beautiful.While I was flying FB , after many months in FW I decided to stick with one plane. FW is still one of my favs but I hate the narrow view of it. No thoughts over this subject though. i really don't care. So , I decided to give it a try. From what I have read about it , Jug makes a really good ground pounder , loaded the plane with 1000 plus 6 rocks and looked for some ground targets , 400 points in that QB , is that I achieved. Then , learned the trick how to level bomb with it and stuck with it. I said is time for a DF check on HL. Made a skin and here I am in the furball. Nobody attacked me until I was at 2500. Suddenly a blue wrote on public chat that he will take the Jug to pay a visit to our base. So , I have scanned the sky looking for him. Here was he at 300 full of ammo waiting to reach our runway. Screaming in the dive , my jug aligned with him. All my 8 guns started pouring the lead over his skin and after a second I have seen that his control cables are history. Another second passed and he lost his engine. Then I started climbing again. German wolves spotted me and I was looking some cover above our flaks. They stopped pursuing me. Since that day I mostly fly the Jug. Even if they downed me hundred times. Jug is special , you can do anything with it. What I find really good is that you can stall at will. Don't be afraid to stall in the Jug. I recoverd almost every time , once while I was at 500 m. I remember that once being chased by this Bf and because I was loosing speed I decided to stall. Altitude was 1500 , high enough , the bandit was so close that I could hear his guns. Then I added full left rudder and violently the stick back. A huge explosion in the air. Bf was so surprised that he flew into me! Don't do this maneuver offline. AI will kill you , even on rookie level. I love everything in the Jug , how it takes off , how it lands , how it flies and how it fights. Today I will re-install my computer. Then FB it will be.


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:09 PM
Not to forget that no plane in FB used as a BZ plane (in real life) is modelled correctly. I dont think its in the game code for certain planes like the p47 and the FW190 to keep their energy in BZ climb...
In FB anything with alt advantage can succesfully BZ.Even a I-16..
The p47 and FW190 should be able to dive, shoot and the climb and the end up much higer than they started becasue they can maintain their energy (in a BZ climb). But in fB that is not possible. As it is now, sure in a p47 u can outdive anything but as soon as u start climbing that Yak that tried to follow you in a dive wil catch u again, which would not be the case if the p47 could maintain its energy as it should...
I have rad at many places that the best way to climb with a p47 was to dive first and the pull up gently as she would just keep her speed in a climb...
correct me if im wrong!
Cheers

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:24 PM
I was on the TX server once and a hole squad of p47s came, i took out 3 and damaged another with my k4, but even when they where 500ft above me there where a breeze to take out!!!!!

http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/hurricane_01sm~0.JPG
We have whiners about the patch, then whiners whining about the whiners about the patch.

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:52 PM
-spacemenow wrote:
- I agree with most of this thread. The P-47 as
- modeled in IL2 has a horrible roll rate. I have
- read that even though the P-47 weighed from 6 to 10
- tons depending on the variant, pilots were extremely
- surprised that it had a roll rate comparible to
- planes half its size. Also, in IL2 the P-47 is way
- too easy to stall in a turn. One of the greatest
- things about the P-47 was that it was a very
- forgiving plane that was easy to handle unlike in
- IL2. Also, I may be wrong on this but it seems that
- when you fire the P-47's 8 .50 cal guns the plane
- shouldn't shake and shimmy so much. I mean how much
- movement could a .50 cal guns recoil cause to a 10
- ton plane? And since when you are firing, guns on
- both side of the plane fire, shouldn't this cancel
- out much of the recoil?
-
-

I agree. The fight model of the P-47, as with most of the non-Russian planes, is off.

The Society of Experimental Test Pilots ran a flight test
comparison of the F6F-5, FG-1D (Goodyear F4U), P-47D-40 and P-51D.


Some of the findings were:

CLIMB brake release to 10,000 ft-

Hellcat quickest at 4min 15 seconds, followed by the FG-1 at 4min 44 sec. However, the F6F required 100 lbs of continuous right rudder making it very tiring to operate. ***The P-47 trailed the FG-1 by a few seconds.*** The
P-51 came in last.

LEVEL ACCELERATION at 10,000 ft. using METO to max attainable speed-

P-51 accelerated from 110 KIAS to 242 KIAS in 133 seconds.
***P-47 accelerated from 105 KIAS to 223 KIAS in 130 seconds.***
F6F accelerated from 100 KIAS to 220 KIAS in 115 seconds.
FG-1 accelerated from 100 KIAS to 230 KIAS in 162 seconds.

STALL normal (straight and level decelerating at 1 kt/sec.) and accelerated (constant 3g turn decelerating at 1 kt/sec.)
Aerodynamic warning:
***Best--P-47, with buffet 5 kt above stall.***
Worst--P-51, no buffet or other warning.
FG-1 and F6F buffeted 2 kts above stall.
Decreasing aileron effectiveness and increasing longitudinal stick forces were noticeable in all except the FG-1.

Height loss, accelerated stall:
***Best--P-47, 100 ft.***
Worst--P-51, 500 ft.
FG-1 and F6F both 150 ft.

Behavior during accelerated stall:
***Most predictable and controllable: P-47 and F6F. Both could be flown at will into the pre-stall buffet, which at no time was heavy enough to present problems with tracking, and held at maximum usable lift coefficient with ease. Sideslip became noticeable as wing heaviness correctible with rudder. There was little tendency to depart controlled
flight.***

The FG-1 suffered severe airframe buffet shortly before the stall, but at the stall there was a strong g-break and rapid right wing drop--no matter which direction the turn. Careful left rudder could prevent wing drop, but then at the stall the aircraft became very unpredictable, bucking and porpoising, with a tendency to a sudden departure.
The P-51 gave no warning whatsoever of an accelerated stall. At the stall, the aircraft departed with complete loss of control, achieving 270-degree of roll before recovery. Departure was accompanied by violent
aileron snatch strong enough to rip the control stick from the hand. In short, the P-51 suffered from a Part I deficiency.

SUSTAINED TURN PERFORMANCE at METO at 10,000 ft.-

The F6F out-turned the other three by a conclusive margin (1g). The other three were all about the same.
Corner speeds of all were very close to the maximum level flight speed, implying very rapid energy loss when turning at the structural limit. The F6F was in light airframe buffet at 6g at Vmax; the P-47 experienced light buffet at 4.8g. The FG-1 and P-51 were buffet-free up to 6g.

MANEUVERING STABILITY stick forces/g at Vmax -

FG-1--5 lbs/g (too light)
***P-47--7.5 lbs/g (ideal)***
F6F--12.5 lbs/g (barely acceptable)
P-51--over 20 lbs/g (excessive)

STATIC LATERAL DIRECTION STABILITY steady heading sideslips -
***All aircraft except the P-47 exhibited moderate or greater adverse aileron yaw. *** Worst was the F6F, followed by the FG-1 and the P-51.


DIVING ACCELERATION 30 deg. dive from 10,000 ft., 5,000 ft. begin pull-up, level off at 4,000 ft. -
Aircraft P-47 FG-1 F6F P51
Start Speed 110 kts 100 kts 100 kts 120 kts
Max Speed 350 kts 348 kts 315 kts 350 kts
Time 23 secs 32 secs 28 secs 25 secs

***All aircraft except the P-47 needed retrimming during the dive.***

AGILITY g capture of 3g target, held for 5 seconds.-

***G capture and hold was easiest in the P-47, predictable and accurate.**** F6F overshot the target by 0.2g. P-51 and FG-1 both overshot by 0.5g

Heading Change Time (180 deg at METO, 220 KIAS at 10,000 ft.) -

FG-1--8.5 sec P-47--9.7 sec F6F--9.9 sec P-51--10.0 sec

AIR-TO-AIR TRACKING 210 KIAS at 10,000 ft. (straight & level into a 3g turn to the left building to 4g followed by a hard reversal into a 4g right turn.)

FG-1 best, followed by P-47, F6F and, trailing badly, the P-51. Lateral corrections in the P-51 were difficult thanks to the very high stick forces. During one run-thru, an effort at a longitudinal tracking correction that put 4.5g on the plane led to a sudden departure and spin.

Poor forward visibility in all aircraft (P-47 worst, FG-1 best) made air-to-air tracking difficult. Depressed sight-line aiming difficult to impossible.

AIR-TO-GROUND TRACKING (90-degree roll into a 30-degree dive from 200 KIAS at 5,000 ft. into a 3.5g right rolling pullout to a 90-degree heading change initiated at 2,500 ft.) -

***The P-47 was far and away the best, accelerating 125 kts in the dive, no retrimming required, with crisp control response. Accurate target tracking very easy. *** FG-1 next best. 100 kt. acceleration. Agressive lateral corrections required. P-51 similar to FG-1 in acceleration and control response, but with heavier stick forces. F6F also accelerated 100kts., but stick forces increased 20 lbs and rudder forces became so high they interfered with accurate target tracking.

THROTTLE & PROPELLER RESPONSE

MP response instantaneous. Hamilton Standard propeller response quick and positive. Curtiss electric prop (on P-47) sluggish in response, delaying RPM change by 3 seconds in a change from 2,000 rpm (cruise) and 2,550 rpm
(METO). Radial engines required pilot to manage cowl and cooler flap settings. Merlin engine had automatic control of oil and coolant radiator flaps.

That doesn't sound like the Plane that Oleg modeled. In short, he screwed the pooch when it came to the P-47. Hopefully, the patch will fix it (hey Oleg, the P-47 was designed by a Russian - can it get Uber status now? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

-Tom

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 03:53 PM
AHS_VIPER wrote:
- I was on the TX server once and a hole squad of p47s
- came, i took out 3 and damaged another with my k4,
- but even when they where 500ft above me there where
- a breeze to take out!!!!!
-

I play in the TX server a good bit and the fact that they use icons and arrows helped you I'm sure. But the main reason, this not to disrespect anyone... is that I highly doubt the people flying them had alot of experience in them. I know this I fly in TX a good bit for fun on UBI. And i can adverage 15 to 20 kills a game all air to air.


S~

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:32 PM
Being a Jug driver and my whole squad dedicated to them I can tell you most of the posts here are right on. A few exceptions though the D-10 version of the P-47 is a very capable dogfighter if flown properly, in fact I can turn fight with a 109 or 190 any day of the week or in any situation, I prefer not to though it leaves you to open to getting waxed by another lone wolf. Stick with the BnZ dive attacks they are devastating and the only way the other flight can combat that is to a high flight waiting for you which never or rarely happens in a DF server. But another thing that is just as important is having a capable wingman or flight with you then you can really mix it up and even get into a furball with little worries./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
~S!
Eagle
CO 361st vFG

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center> <center> www.361stvfg.com</center> (http://www.361stvfg.com</center>)

<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/CindyII.jpg> </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:41 PM
GH_Klingstroem wrote:
- I have rad at many places that the best way to climb
- with a p47 was to dive first and the pull up gently
- as she would just keep her speed in a climb...
- correct me if im wrong!
- Cheers

I agree with this. It's always a bad idea to go vertical at least with the Fw190D9, and a shallow climb while retaining your speed is preferable IMO. I would guess it's the same for the P47.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
07-31-2003, 05:42 PM
Hy, I cant beleave tha amount of insightfull tipps or factuil info on the Jug.
So we know the Jug wan't the best plane, But it was far from the worst. Would calling the jug an average turn fighter be aproppiot? It was one of the best planes to dive in. Sorry my spelling sucks,
Any way I thought i would ask you guy's if the Jug was capaple of staying in a dogfight in real live.
Eavan better, What about real acounts from Jug pilots in WW2. What did they say about thr jug. Did they ever dogfight with it and bring down a plane.
I will try to find some info on this. Could some of you do the same also.

Thanks Silent out....

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:28 PM
To answer your question 310thSilent..Yes. The P-47 could hold its own against the 190s and 109s at high altitude. No matter what some of the LW boys will say.


COMBAT RECORD:
MISSIONS FLOWN WW2: Over 500,000
ENEMY AIRCRAFT DESTROYED: 12,000 Both In The Air And On The Ground
BOMBS DROPPED: 132,482 Tons
ROCKETS FIRED: 59,567
50 CAL. AMMO FIRED: 135 Million Belts
TOTAL P-47 LOST: 5222
TOTAL P-47 LOST DUE TO COMBAT: 824
TOTAL P-47 LOSSES ON OPERATIONAL MISSONS: 0.7 % Of Those Dispatched
AIR TO AIR COMBAT VICTORIES TO LOSSES: 4.6 To 1


BELOW RECORDS FROM D DAY TO V-E DAY:
RAILWAY CARS DESTORYED: 86,000
LOCOMOTIVES DESTORYED: 9000
ARMORED VEHICLES/TANKS DESTORYED: 6000
TRUCKS DESTROYED: 68,000
AIRCRAFT DESTORYED ON THE GROUND: 3,315
AIRCRAFT DESTORYED IN THE AIR: 2,752


The German pilots learn to respect the P-47 quickly. So they sooned learned the Jugs range as a bomber escort and would lay in wait watching as the P-47s had to break off and return home because of low fuel. The bombers where sitting ducks for the Germans. But then came the P-51D and change all that. The P-47 then went to the primary role of ground attack.


S~
www.vmf-214.us (http://www.vmf-214.us)







Message Edited on 08/01/0308:32AM by VMF-214_HaVoK

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:54 PM
the p-47 of this game seems to handle (roll rate anyway) like the p-38 of cfs2. horrible roll rate. the 38 of cfs2 was shunned by 99.8% of pilots.

the 38's primary offensive manuver was it's yo-yo capability...i could do a high yo-yo on a tight turning hellcat, and still bag him in 1 of his hard turns while he was in the blackouts; and get called a cheat while he went down in flames. the z/b was another tactic but the tail compressibility that plagued the 38 made that a dangerous tactic.

i was deadly in the p-38 in cfs2....but royally suck at fb. i know the 47 wasnt much of a t/b'er, but neither was the p-38...but the p-38 also did some serious ownage by itself. just wished the american birds was paid proper tribute.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 01:55 PM
GH_Klingstroem wrote:
- Not to forget that no plane in FB used as a BZ plane
- (in real life) is modelled correctly. I dont think
- its in the game code for certain planes like the p47
- and the FW190 to keep their energy in BZ climb...
- In FB anything with alt advantage can succesfully
- BZ.Even a I-16..
- The p47 and FW190 should be able to dive, shoot and
- the climb and the end up much higer than they
- started becasue they can maintain their energy (in a
- BZ climb). But in fB that is not possible. As it is
- now, sure in a p47 u can outdive anything but as
- soon as u start climbing that Yak that tried to
- follow you in a dive wil catch u again, which would
- not be the case if the p47 could maintain its energy
- as it should...
- I have rad at many places that the best way to climb
- with a p47 was to dive first and the pull up gently
- as she would just keep her speed in a climb...
- correct me if im wrong!
- Cheers
-
-

You are right have a alt advantage of 2000meters to get an advantage means the plane u fly is a flyin crap sorry.
as u said u also can bnz taht way with a I16.

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:15 PM
pipgig wrote:
-
-
- You are right have a alt advantage of 2000meters to
- get an advantage means the plane u fly is a flyin
- crap sorry.
-
-
-What you say is a very ignorant statment. Every plane in this game has its advantages that if must use to be successful, unless ofcoarse you kill noobs for a living. Every pilot tries to get the advantage in his or her favor during a dogfight.
So for you to say if your plane you fly needs an advantage then your plane is crap. Is one of most rediculous things I have heard. I bet you fly a Hurrican dont you? or a Yak? If you do I'm sure your turn and burn. Last time I checked advantage to Yak and Hurricanes. Funny stuff keep it coming.
-
-
-
-
-





Message Edited on 08/01/0309:18AM by VMF-214_HaVoK

XyZspineZyX
08-01-2003, 02:34 PM
Maybe it's time to think that american training, tactics and planning should be paid proper tribute.

The P47 had several very interesting advantages that made it successful in the conditions in which it was used. In FB is you use the same rules of engagement you can already be successful. With the better roll at high speed it will get even better (hopefully with better zoom climb too). But there's no way it should outmaneoeuver anything, esp at the altitude where most fighting in the game occurs.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]