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View Full Version : Does anyone think Stamina Break is anywhere close to as punishing as it should be?



Jasado
05-06-2017, 12:36 PM
For instance, why can you parry during stamina break?

The whole point is you are so tired, that you see the world in greyscale from exhaustion.

Yet you have the focus and eye-hand coordination to deflect and turn away an opponents fully powered attack still?

I understand being able to grab reject, because falling down leads to huge incoming damage, and is the obvious response to seeing someone stamina broken.

However, it's silly that people can dodge spam and parry with no repercussions during stamina break.

If you could not parry, then chip damage would matter. Combos would matter. People would actually fall, as they should.

All you need to do is remove the ability to parry during stamina break, and make dodges take longer to refresh during that state as well.

To escape stamina break, you should have to play and respond PERFECTLY to the opponent, and even then, you should rarely come out unscathed. If you were forced to block, you should have eaten plenty of chip damage. Your few well timed dodges escaped the worst parts, but you made it out alive after the final grab reject. You never want to be in that state again. You'll actually manage your stamina this time.

But no. Currently you just parry your opponent or push dodge like a metronome over and over until the "inconvenience" goes away. Any time they aren't actively swinging at you, you just mash grab reject.

There is far too much power available to stamina broken individuals, and this is contributing to the turtle meta even more - possibly one of the underlying issues making it so prevalent.

Egotistic_Ez
05-06-2017, 12:38 PM
Everyone agrees, even the devs, which is why they said last week they're going to make exhausted more punishing sometime in the future.

Jasado
05-06-2017, 12:51 PM
........How is it difficult to disable parry during stamina break and making dodges less responsive?

Why "some time in the future"? Wouldn't it literally take less than 15 minutes to change the game coding to reflect this?

CoyoteXStarrk
05-06-2017, 01:07 PM
Exhaustion is fine.

Anyone who knows what they are doing can properly punish it.

Egotistic_Ez
05-06-2017, 02:43 PM
........How is it difficult to disable parry during stamina break and making dodges less responsive?

Why "some time in the future"? Wouldn't it literally take less than 15 minutes to change the game coding to reflect this?

They're changing a lot to get rid of the turtle meta. Nerfing parry, changing how exhaust works, and even making it so just attacking (without feinting or gbing) will create openings for the attacker. Since all that is going in together it needs to be balanced together.

There's a decent patch coming out with the new season (raider buff, woot), it may even be in that.


Exhaustion is fine.

Anyone who knows what they are doing can properly punish it.

No, they can't. Any half decent player can just back dodge away. And with respect, your opinion is irrelevant on this one, the devs have already said they're changing it to make it harsher.

Halvtand
05-06-2017, 02:51 PM
Exhaustion is fine.

Anyone who knows what they are doing can properly punish it.

I don't think so. Exhaustion doesn't really take anything away from the exhausted hero except attack speed and all the lovely colours. It is still as easy to parry, CGB and do normal evades as it is with full stamina. Sure, some on the advanced moves are locked, but most of those are not what you want to use all the time to begin with, so it's a pretty moot restriction.

Disabling parry when exhausted is a good first step, as that would at least make your unblockable attacks a guaranteed way to punish an opponent that wasn't watching his stamina. Raising the chip dmg is another good way to get some punishment in even if the guy is good at blocking.

Helnekromancer
05-06-2017, 07:20 PM
As a Nobushi main getting exhaust is pretty much a death sentence, the most i can do is throw out a light when they attempt to guard break me but other than that they will just spam unblockables so I' dont ever recover from exhaustion.

Brologna_Xeno
05-06-2017, 08:25 PM
Disabling parry when exhausted is a good first step, as that would at least make your unblockable attacks a guaranteed way to punish an opponent that wasn't watching his stamina. Raising the chip dmg is another good way to get some punishment in even if the guy is good at blocking.

Or cancel your unblockable, they cannot cancel their parry-now-a-heavy. So you get a free parry knockdown.

I worry about them making exhaust more punishing because some heros are more stamina-demanding than others, putting additional burden on stamina intensive classes is going to make more imbalance.

SJW_Kriegor
05-06-2017, 08:31 PM
If you can no longer parry while exhausted, every players maining the Raider will just leave the game and they are never coming back. Sure Raider will be overpowered but I can safely affirm that no one maining the Raider plays him for the sake of having the easiest possible match ups in the game. No, the peak of their in game pleasure is when their opponent is exhausted, and they mind game him perfectly, either by landing an unblockable he thought was a bluff, or by bluffing and parrying his failed attempt to parry. Sometimes, you just top heavy him while he is on the floor and then get back to that nasty game of guessing what he will think you're thinking he is thinking you'll do. Raider's main fight and die for this sick pleasure. Making this component out of the game, you can just as well ask them to retire.

CandleInTheDark
05-06-2017, 08:44 PM
Exhaustion is fine.

Anyone who knows what they are doing can properly punish it.

This is not true, at least for all characters. As a peacekeeper main, while I do my best not to get into it and it is usually off a parry I do, I don't fear it. No one can catch me and people know it, they generally don't even try now, they just let it reset because why bother.

Funeragon
05-07-2017, 01:34 PM
Imo :
With unblockables, exhaustion is punishable.
Without, it's not.

The_B0G_
05-07-2017, 01:56 PM
I agree, people who can CGB really well are uneffected by exhaustion, they just mash back dodge and parry, if anything you end up wasting a bunch of stamina trying to chase them down.

I think there should be a very small cooldown on dodge while exhausted, just enough so you can't mash back dodge to get away and no ability to parry. It should be block only, with the odd dodge thrown in too.

Stamina management is a huge part of fighting, and it's not punishable enough right now unless the other player isn't very good to begin with. Even myself, I mash back dodge when I am exhausted, usually the other player doesn't get a hit in and I'm an LB main, so my dodge is s**t and I still get away.

CandleInTheDark
05-07-2017, 02:15 PM
I agree, people who can CGB really well are uneffected by exhaustion, they just mash back dodge and parry, if anything you end up wasting a bunch of stamina trying to chase them down.

I think there should be a very small cooldown on dodge while exhausted, just enough so you can't mash back dodge to get away and no ability to parry. It should be block only, with the odd dodge thrown in too.

Stamina management is a huge part of fighting, and it's not punishable enough right now unless the other player isn't very good to begin with. Even myself, I mash back dodge when I am exhausted, usually the other player doesn't get a hit in and I'm an LB main, so my dodge is s**t and I still get away.

Yeah I very much agree with that. I would bet people chase you and don't catch you, like I said, as a peacekeeper, usually people just stand off and allow me to get stamina back at a time they should be pressing the advantage because why bother? I seriously doubt it is because they are being nice and honourable, fact is they won't catch me and they will likely waste stamina in double rolls or missed shots trying.

Kitsune..
05-07-2017, 02:20 PM
If exhaustion becomes more punishing people will turtle more and attack less. You barely get OoS while turtling.
Chip damage for blocked attacks might become enough exhaustion punishment IMO, no need to overdo here.
Jussaying.

Egotistic_Ez
05-07-2017, 02:33 PM
If exhaustion becomes more punishing people will turtle more and attack less. You barely get OoS while turtling.
Chip damage for blocked attacks might become enough exhaustion punishment IMO, no need to overdo here.
Jussaying.

That's not good logic for balance though. Saying we shouldn't balance one aspect of the game because it would improve an already broken aspect isn't how you go about things. You balance them both together.

Kitsune..
05-07-2017, 02:41 PM
That's not good logic for balance though. Saying we shouldn't balance one aspect of the game because it would improve an already broken aspect isn't how you go about things. You balance them both together.
Well, I would rather leave it as it is to see what will happen after chip damage introduction. Exhaustion is a punishment for an active play, and such changes will severely nerf some heroes, whose aggressive playstyle possibilities should be buffed. Those ones who need like half of their stamina to land a light attack.
It's a very dangerous change and will most probably lead to unwanted consequences.

I wish we could have that test server just to try it on practice...

The_B0G_
05-07-2017, 05:27 PM
If exhaustion becomes more punishing people will turtle more and attack less. You barely get OoS while turtling.
Chip damage for blocked attacks might become enough exhaustion punishment IMO, no need to overdo here.
Jussaying.

Maybe basic blocking should start taking little bits of stamina then, parries drains the attackers, so basic blocks should drain defenders, obviously not to the same extent as a parry drains stamina, but a small amount that is noticeable.

I'm not even going to try to throw up numbers for how much should be taken off per hit because it would need to be balanced between everyone but it should have to do with your defense stat. High attack and no defense and you can take more stamina per hit off a defender and have to play aggressive but if he has high defense then his hits will drain your stamina faster than his is being drained.

Just an idea.

Brologna_Xeno
05-07-2017, 06:22 PM
..

That's just a zero sum game leaving both players with no stamina. The result would be everyone being more stamina minded, dodging out back to idle and not re-engage until they're full on stamina. More reason to remain at idle, not less.

I agree their should be some sort of limit on how much people can defend, and punish for staying and turtle idle.

But can't tie it to stamina, it needs to be it's own thing.

Yarzahn
05-07-2017, 09:07 PM
Exhaustion is fine.

Anyone who knows what they are doing can properly punish it.

I can't guess if you are joking or never played against a peacekeeper or orochi, who can casually move away from you for as long as they please during exhaustion. Literally 0 contact and 0 counters. You can at most surprise them with a running attack (rarely).

UbiJurassic
05-08-2017, 12:58 AM
Everyone agrees, even the devs, which is why they said last week they're going to make exhausted more punishing sometime in the future.

To expand upon what Egotistic_Ez said, here is the video (https://youtu.be/vD55uCex4Sk?t=48m53s) that show the devs addressing potential changes to the game to combat the defensive meta. These changes are in production and we hope to have more information on the concrete changes coming and when they will be coming sometime in the near future.

Hormly
05-08-2017, 01:14 AM
seriously?! When im out of stamina its pretty much GG

kweassa1917
05-08-2017, 01:24 AM
seriously?! When im out of stamina its pretty much GG

Why? Does it suddenly disable your ability to block? Parry? Dodge? CGB?