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92SqnGCJimbo
05-09-2004, 05:37 PM
how come the bombers in il-2 are now so easy to kill??? if i want to play offline bomber killing now i play the first il-2 as its more realistic(however on line i cant do n e thing about it). in fb and aep u can almost slow down to a standstill and shoot from dead on 6 and still not get hit by the real tail gunner.
plzzz if this is in time could u put a scaleable setting for gunners in online play??(just a thought)
p.s wheres the patch that development update makes us want it even more!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

92SqnGCJimbo
05-09-2004, 05:37 PM
how come the bombers in il-2 are now so easy to kill??? if i want to play offline bomber killing now i play the first il-2 as its more realistic(however on line i cant do n e thing about it). in fb and aep u can almost slow down to a standstill and shoot from dead on 6 and still not get hit by the real tail gunner.
plzzz if this is in time could u put a scaleable setting for gunners in online play??(just a thought)
p.s wheres the patch that development update makes us want it even more!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Chuck_Older
05-09-2004, 05:39 PM
You're joking, of course

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

HuninMunin
05-09-2004, 06:00 PM
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Bull_dog_
05-09-2004, 06:57 PM
A really odd thing I noticed...

Most people who complain about a damage model being too easy to kill are talking about an aircraft they are flying but can't avoid getting shot up...

Most people who complain about a damage model being too tough are complaining about an aircraft they are attacking but can't seem to kill easy enough.... most posts I've read here indicate that the overall damage modelling is too tough... and I tend to agree with that hypothesis.

Bombers are plenty tough...the AI seems a little too accurate on the gunner side of things but that is just an opinion based on reading rather than actual gunnery so who knows...maybe its right on!

Seems to me I heard a statistic on the Discovery channel about B-17's downing more fighter aircraft than their escorts over the years.... is there anyone that can confirm or deny my failing memory?

julien673
05-09-2004, 07:12 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif



....

....

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Aztek_Eagle
05-09-2004, 10:12 PM
well me go i have notice the gunners are now on rookie mode always on online games.... dunno why, ppl can sit to 2 or 3 metters, and my gunners will just fire short bursh or not shoot at all, or not hit at all, it is bad as a bomber wiht gunners that scores no hit are like shooting down a ju85 or c47..... i got to change to tailgunner if i realy espect to live, come on gunners may not be able to hit much at medium distances but at short distance not moving planes? come on.... i think this only happens to flyable planes online wiht turrets or tailguns

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LeadSpitter_
05-09-2004, 10:28 PM
couldnt agree more, getting 20+ ai ace b17 kills with the 190a9 and gunpods, exploding them in 1 sec burst.

I cant believe oleg listened to the luftwhiners making b17s weaker then any other bomber in the game and having the worst aiming gunnery that fires in the opposite direction of the plane, the tb3 does also. It takes absolutely no strategy to shoot a b17 down anymore. Any guncam I seen it usually takes a couple passes, they also take 7-15 cannon shots before the crew bails or the planes critically wounded and a wing on fire.

You can ask crazyivan last time i played in his coop I got 8 b17s with the 190a9 and 108 wing cannons getting 3 in one front pass then getting the other 5 from direct rear attack.

The bf110s enilated the rest of the b17s and killed a few mustangs with thier rear guns..

Before you really had to work for a b17 kill, bnz them at 650-750kmph staying away from the angles of the gunners. Now you just do anything you want to kill them.

Aztek_Eagle for free image sig hosting try www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com)

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[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Sun May 09 2004 at 09:38 PM.]

LuckyBoy1
05-09-2004, 11:09 PM
JimDude! We got some guy in another thread complaining they're too hard to shoot down. He's full of beans of course on that subject! Says the AI gunners are too good! Personally, I think they're alomost in a coma!

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WWMaxGunz
05-09-2004, 11:13 PM
First IL2 model rear gunner? That would be your wingmate or escort wouldn't it?

B-17's seem to be very easy to start on fire. The wing tanks are large and not self-sealing nor have any fire suppression whatsoever. VVS fighters, at least some have exhaust fumes bled into the tanks to force out all oxygen. I don't know what the 17's had but I'm sure there must have been something!

I do remember a ways back some bombers having very weak wings, but that was long ago.


Neal

clint-ruin
05-10-2004, 12:32 AM
One thing I've noticed occuring a lot is the outter fuel tank - just outside of and behind the furthest engine - can now be set smoking and on fire by shots that land several metres away from it inside the wing. Not sure what's going on. Hopefully the beta will cure some of this behaviour if weapon effects generally are being looked at.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Dmitri9mm
05-10-2004, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
Seems to me I heard a statistic on the Discovery channel about B-17's downing more fighter aircraft than their escorts over the years.... is there anyone that can confirm or deny my failing memory?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is correct that bomber-crews got credited with more aerial victories than the fighters, but this doesn't mean that they shot down more fighters!
The gunner of a B-17 had no gun camera or anything else that could prove a kill. The fighting took place over enemy territory almost without exeption, so there was no confirmation from ground based units.
All they had was testemonies from other crew members and other planes.
The result was, that kills claimed by gunners almost always got confirmed, not only because it was impossible to give any proof, but also because it gave the crews a moral boost to know, that they downed more LW fighters than they lost bombers.
This of course had nothing to do with reality, several gunners might have hit the same aircraft all getting the credit because of the chaos of the fight making it impossible to tell the kills apart, some LW planes may have been seen going down with a stream of smoke, but still returning home safely.
The actual numbers of German fighters downed by bombers was quite different, though not exactly a small number.
In the raid of october 9th 1943 the B-17 crews claimed 105 victories most of which were granted, the Luftwaffe high command noted a loss of 14 aircraft shot down or damaged beyond repair, 5 LW pilots were lost!
On the other hand, the number of confirmed kills by LW pilots on the same day(I forgot the exact numbers) was two less than the actual number of aircraft lost by the 8th airforce!
You have to be sceptic when you read the kill-score of the bomber crews. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Kannaksen_hanu
05-10-2004, 01:40 AM
I believe the problem is only with B-17. Other bombers seem quite good imho. B-17 catches fire VERY easilly and right after this crew bails out.

dadada1
05-10-2004, 04:59 AM
I'm not that concerned with the B17 gunnery, it seems to be satisfactory as far as accuracy is concerned, woe betide you if your attacking a formation in a 109. Its that darn PE 2 that has the most accurate gunners of all. They'll take out your engine first then PK you with just one or too accurate bursts, far scarier than attacking a multi turreted B17.

Beery
05-10-2004, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbolina25:
how come the bombers in il-2 are now so easy to kill???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. They drop like flies. One quick burst at 200 yards and a wing drops off or an engine catches fire. There's none of the 'plugging away and using up all my ammunition to no effect' that we hear of from real-life pilots. If it takes me more than a 5-second burst to down a bomber I'm surprised. It's ridiculously easy to get bomber kills - although they do tend to have snipers on board occasionally who shoot me dead at 500 yards before I can get that killing burst in.

Yeah, something is wrong with this sim.

Beery
05-10-2004, 07:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dadada1:
I'm not that concerned with the B17 gunnery, it seems to be satisfactory as far as accuracy is concerned, woe betide you if your attacking a formation in a 109.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Defensive gunnery isn't the issue here. If anything the gunnery is too accurate, especially at long ranges. The problem here lies squarely with the bomber damage model - and it's not just the B-17s. It exists in every bomber to some extent, except for the IL-2 Sturmovik, which is about right. All the other bombers are very easy to set on fire or shoot a wing off. Far too easy in my opinion. The problem of AI shooting accuracy, married with that of weak DMs makes for a simulation that produces many times more downed aircraft than happened in the real WW2 Russian Front. It's the biggest problem with this sim, but as far as I can tell, Oleg & Co. aren't interested in even admitting that there's a problem, let alone solving it.

MAstaKFC
05-10-2004, 08:19 AM
*Bump* Please make bombers a tad more robust. Bit too easy to down them, unless your chasing them up the 6 like a n00b of course. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-10-2004, 08:31 AM
it realy depends on the Bombers Modell !

try shoot down DB3/IL4 with Bf109F4 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - good joke in comparison to the B17 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
ore Blenheim with G50 ore I-16.
ore an U2 - with what ever http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

btw, one of the best B17 killers for me is a P47 with extra ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WWMaxGunz
05-10-2004, 09:34 AM
The TU-2's are very sturdy. Very. If all bombers besides the IL-2 are too easy to kill then the Tu-2 must not be a bomber?


Neal

KG26_Alpha
05-10-2004, 09:47 AM
Try your FW190A9 with gunpods up at 9000 meters and see how you do against a formation of B17's

http://www.freewebs.com/kg26/

LuckyBoy1
05-10-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clint-ruin:
One thing I've noticed occuring a lot is the outter fuel tank - just outside of and behind the furthest engine - can now be set smoking and on fire by shots that land several metres away from it inside the wing. Not sure what's going on. Hopefully the beta will cure some of this behaviour if weapon effects generally are being looked at.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's called, "A bullet hits a solid object at an off angle and as a result, changes direction. No smoking in my plane please! Try not to get shot!

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Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

LuckyBoy1
05-10-2004, 09:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MAstaKFC:
*Bump* Please make bombers a tad more robust. Bit too easy to down them, unless your chasing them up the 6 like a n00b of course. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any of you guys gone up against like, four HE-111's in this game?

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LeadSpitter_
05-10-2004, 10:28 AM
slightly stronger bombers are needed, I think a solution for the gunnery would be increase the effectiveness a little bit,

but have them short in bursts every couple of seconds 3-6 seconds rather then full streams like the ghostbusters.

the he111 is pretty tough but so are most of the twin engine bombers

I was talking about heavy bombers 4 engines

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Dmitri9mm
05-10-2004, 10:35 AM
What I would like to see is more complex damage modelling, especially the opportunity to kill crewmebers should be added to several aircraft.
It might be nice to have bombers like the B-17 and Pe-8 made a little more sturdy, but first add a new damage model. It is just ridiculous that I can pound 5 - 10 20mm shells into the windscreen and glazed nose of a B-17 without killing half of the crew regardless of the B-17s armouring!
In short: Strengthen up the bombers as a whole, but give them a lot of "critical" spots to aim for. Man, I'd love to see the pilot and bombardier spread all over the cockpit in cluts! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

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Ready for take off in 2004?

Chuck_Older
05-10-2004, 10:37 AM
See, I still disagree.

This thread is about "Bombers in FB", not the B-17 only. If the B-17 is too flimsy, then yes it needs fixing, but making a sweeping change to "Bombers in FB" is a big mistake. SOme of them are plenty tough

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

VF-19
05-10-2004, 12:51 PM
I have only one gripe with bombers. The crew bails at the first sign of an engine fire (AI of course). It would make it more interesting if the crew did not bail when an engine caught fire, but rather, feather the prop and shut down the engine.

As for gunner accuracy, personally, I think the rear gunner should be the most deadliest gunner on the plane. His guns are (for the most part) alligned with the heading of the plane. He should have the easiest time shooting at somebody on the bomber's six, as the firing solution would be similar to a figher's.

BennyMoore
05-11-2004, 02:22 AM
That's not true. When you're flying away from the target you are facing instead of toward it, you have to lead behind it instead of ahead of it. It's not only more difficult than flying a fighter, it's also completely unnatural. Have you tried it?

In addition, the absurd muzzle flashes make it impossible to see where your tracers are going. Goodbye, depth perception...

Beery
05-11-2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
See, I still disagree.

This thread is about "Bombers in FB", not the B-17 only. If the B-17 is too flimsy, then yes it needs fixing, but making a sweeping change to "Bombers in FB" is a big mistake. SOme of them are plenty tough<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're finding any of them, except the IL-2 itself, too tough, then maybe it's your shooting that's the problem. I bung a 1-second burst into any bomber engine and the engine bursts into flame and/or the wing drops off. Name one bomber you think is strong (except of course the correctly-modelled IL-2) and I'll use any fighter you care to mention (that's in the standard offline game) and I'll do a few tests to see how much time it takes me to shoot it down. I've yet to meet a bomber that seems realistically difficult to shoot down.

Chuck_Older
05-11-2004, 10:18 AM
Nothing's wrong with my aim

I can shoot down any bomber, but it's hardly "easy". It's not too hard if I have cannon, but with British or American machine guns?

How many He-111s can you shoot down in a Hurri Mk1? I can shoot down one. Which seems fairly reasonable to me.


*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

WWMaxGunz
05-11-2004, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beery:
Name one bomber you think is strong (except of course the correctly-modelled IL-2) and I'll use any fighter you care to mention (that's in the standard offline game) and I'll do a few tests to see how much time it takes me to shoot it down. I've yet to meet a bomber that seems realistically difficult to shoot down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try the TU-2 and a 109 from the same year with default armament. See how easy that is.


Neal

clint-ruin
05-11-2004, 11:02 AM
This one's also pretty bad: P-39 [indeed all P-39s and the P-63] vs He-111:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/p39-he111h6v200t.zip

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Luftcaca
05-11-2004, 11:14 AM
"the he111 is pretty tough but so are most of the twin engine bombers"

yes, the 111 can take several hits of 37 mm canon b4 going down. The Il4 is also pretty tough to shoot down.

BUT, the SB2 is pretty easy to bring down tho, and for good reason, it catches on fire faster than a blunt!

advice: if you fly Hurri Mk1 in a Finnish or Romanian campaign and you see a bunch of SB2 they MUST be your priority targets cuz I found the .303 MG to be highly effective to make the SB2 go down burning as hell http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

Beery
05-11-2004, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Nothing's wrong with my aim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta be something wrong somewhere if you can't shoot those crates down. You say you can shoot down 1 HE111 with a Hurricane. Is that one per ammo load? If so, then that sounds about right if you're opening up at too long a range. My problem is with bombers that go down after my first burst: Li2, SB2, Yaks. The SB2 is ridiculous - it's almost like I can shoot them out of the sky by merely looking at them. I got 4 in one mission last week. I don't know if that was ever done in real life, but it seems to me that it shouldn't be a common occurrence. Even if it was the worst plane on the Russian Front, it shouldn't be the flying deathtrap it is in this game.

WWMaxGunz
05-11-2004, 01:40 PM
109 vs Tu-2?

Don't answer if it don't fit your ideas though...


Neal

Luftcaca
05-11-2004, 04:34 PM
"The SB2 is ridiculous - it's almost like I can shoot them out of the sky by merely looking at them. I got 4 in one mission last week"

only 4???
Cmon with a Hurri Mk1 I used to down 6 or even 7 sometimes, either the 1935 version or the 1938...

With a 190A5 you can shot down 12 of em and still have MG ammo left. Yes they catch on fire very easily but its historically right.

These bombers were thought good cuz during the Spanish war no fighter could catch em

thats why the fuel tanks are not protected

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Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

Chuck_Older
05-11-2004, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beery:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Nothing's wrong with my aim<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta be something wrong somewhere if you can't shoot those crates down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds awfully like you're picking a fight now. Move along.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Beery
05-11-2004, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
"The SB2 is ridiculous - it's almost like I can shoot them out of the sky by merely looking at them. I got 4 in one mission last week"

only 4???
Cmon with a Hurri Mk1 I used to down 6 or even 7 sometimes, either the 1935 version or the 1938...

With a 190A5 you can shot down 12 of em and still have MG ammo left. Yes they catch on fire very easily but its historically right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really??? You think it's historically right to be able to down 12 of them in one sortie??? Tell me, which pilot got 12 of them in one sortie in real life? What was the most SB2s ever shot down in one sortie? Was it 12? Was it 7?.. 6? How many? Most likely you haven't a clue. Neither have I. But I'm pretty darned sure it wasn't even 5. Does that even register a red flag with you? It sure does with me, 'cos a sim that allows players to shoot down 2 to 3 times as many bombers in a sortie that were shot down IRL is a sim that fails to simulate accurately - i.e. there is a flaw in the damage model or the bullet effectiveness model. If players are shooting down far more bombers than the real life super-aces, then the game has big issues with realism.

clint-ruin
05-11-2004, 10:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beery:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
"The SB2 is ridiculous - it's almost like I can shoot them out of the sky by merely looking at them. I got 4 in one mission last week"

only 4???
Cmon with a Hurri Mk1 I used to down 6 or even 7 sometimes, either the 1935 version or the 1938...

With a 190A5 you can shot down 12 of em and still have MG ammo left. Yes they catch on fire very easily but its historically right.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really??? You think it's historically right to be able to down 12 of them in one sortie??? Tell me, which pilot got 12 of them in one sortie in real life? What was the most SB2s ever shot down in one sortie? Was it 12? Was it 7?.. 6? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interestingly enough, this site was linked immediately above one of your posts in the Bomber Gunners thread:

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/sarvan/sarvan.htm

That's 6 DB-3M kills in 5 minutes, with four .303 guns only.

Bearing in mind that the SB-2 series developed a reputation for flammability, and that the Hurricane has double or three times as many guns as the Fokker XXI, depending on the model, and it's starting to become clear that what you claim is impossible was indeed entirely possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It sure does with me, 'cos a sim that allows players to shoot down 2 to 3 times as many bombers in a sortie that were shot down IRL is a sim that fails to simulate accurately - i.e. there is a flaw in the damage model or the bullet effectiveness model. If players are shooting down far more bombers than the real life super-aces, then the game has big issues with realism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can say this as much as you like, Beery, but the simple fact is that your view is incredibly myopic and assumes that the DM/gunnery issues are the only reason why people rack up "more" kills than you think they should.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

WWMaxGunz
05-12-2004, 02:10 AM
Clint, you are using facts to confuse the issue!

Just like how the MG's really had very little dispersion compared to the current M2's when he is saying the M2 dispersion should be how they all are.

These are only technical facts, details really. Honest.

He is more concerned with really important things like historic averages. When the sim is rigged so that players achieve historic averages then that will make it more realistic. Honest. I write this because he has done this before, explained his position and even influenced one sim in this manner, Red Baron 3D. And oddly enough, the sim got less historic because even though the shots spread wide you had a much better chance of getting a critical hit even if your actual aim was only close or not even so close as range increased. If you want to improve the odds of such a hit then fire a longer burst since closer aim only helps a small bit. And he wants to bring this to Forgotten Battles but we should sit still and be so nice.


Neal

Snuffy_Hadden
05-12-2004, 05:03 AM
And he tried to do it over at www.bombs-away.net (http://www.bombs-away.net) too with the B-17II sim. He touted his made over R&R files that made the game so boring for most of us that those that used it tossed it later and went back to the games original R&R file, and to this day he still thinks he's the savings grace of the game.

You should also know that over at bombs-away we have a thing called v8th Ops. Where we get everyone together to fly as the 8th USAAF and by filing reports get as close to flying this sim in a multiplayer fashion. The v8th Ops rules prohibit any R&R mods other than a very few, Beery's R&R file is not allowed to be flown by v8th Members.

Luftcaca
05-12-2004, 10:32 AM
"Really??? You think it's historically right to be able to down 12 of them in one sortie???"

No, I never said that, I said it was normal for the SB2 to catch on fire easily, but its certainely not normal to rack up kills in such an easy way, but this is not due to the bombers being too easy to down, since you can also do that with the fighters, and believe me, theres NO WAY the fighters are currently too easy to shoot down, and Im talking about the DM here NOT the AI. The current DM of the Lagg3 is ridiculous, it can litterally absorb 20 mm hits right now...

thats said, the fact that you can rack up kills this way does not come from the fact that the bombers are too easy to shoot down. I think the fact that you dont really fear for your life makes ya a better pilot (if you fail you can just retry) . In real life I would not dare to engage 12 bombers with an escort of 4 Yaks all alone in my Emyl...but in AEP I say to myself what the heck it ought to be a lotta fun!

the AI also is a reason why its so eay to rack up kills...and I also think that in real life it was tougher to AIM properly that in a Sim, but Im not 100% sure about that.

there are many reasons why its easier to down many planes in a sim thatn in real life thats just a few of em

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

Snuffy_Hadden
05-12-2004, 10:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
That said, the fact that you can rack up kills this way does not come from the fact that the bombers are too easy to shoot down. I think the fact that you dont really fear for your life makes ya a better pilot (if you fail you can just retry) . In real life I would not dare to engage 12 bombers with an escort of 4 Yaks all alone in my Emyl...but in AEP I say to myself what the heck it ought to be a lotta fun!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly the point. Until you can get players as well as AI to react as is this was a life or death situation, you will never be able to replicate real life.

I tend to fly with the mentality that getting too careless will cost me my players life ... or his plane, and I hold that close to me so I break off more often than not.

I also have to confess to not having tried to take out a bomber in some time ... I suppose now that I have all the updates, I should try again eh?

Luftcaca
05-12-2004, 11:44 AM
well that depends on what you're flying mate.
if you fly 190 well you should JUMP on the bombers!

if you fly Yaks...unless you fly the 9T or 9K...maybe avoinding the 111 could be a good idea...


that said...Stukas and SB2 should always be priority targets (careful with the Stukas turrets tho, especially those with 2 MG)

Il4 and 111 are more tricky, avoid em unless you fly something like a P-39 or a 190,

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Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

WWMaxGunz
05-12-2004, 01:16 PM
Planes absorbing cannon fire is due to change. It was already noted that shrapnel is having no effect.

Months or more from now, someone will ressurect an old thread complaining of that as if it were a new issue, just watch... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


Neal

Luftcaca
05-12-2004, 01:20 PM
I knew already that the power of most of the MG's and canons would be tuned up with the new patch coming out soon, but still I wanted to point out at the fact that it was even more obvious with the Lagg

Right now the Lagg is as tough to shoot down as the 190 is, and the Klimov engine looks like it has the DM of a radial engine...

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Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

WWMaxGunz
05-12-2004, 05:33 PM
That I have no answer for. Well, the LaGG-3 actually did have a real world reputation for absorbing damage... something in like with the P-40 according to people I've trusted, and the P-40 could take a lot.

As to MG's getting stronger... I haven't seen that. Only that HE shrapnel was not having any effect (even though in arcade mode playback the shrapnel arrows are shown) and would be fixed. Only some MG rounds have any HE value whatsoever and yes, there were 50 cal explosive rounds.


Neal

Bearcat99
05-12-2004, 07:25 PM
Do you have your guns set to normal? I dont know what bombers you are flying against but the AI gunners are killers to me. Rarely do I down even one bomber without taking some pretty heavyu hits on my own plane.

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FLAGRUM_3
05-13-2004, 05:11 AM
I'm won't agree or dissagree with the original post here, but after reading thru this thread I decided to do a little experiment.I flew 5 missions each with the original IL2-v1.2 and AEP.
I used 12 he111s against 6LaggITs...I set the Laggs at veteren thru out and changed the he111s from rookie to ace, my observations:

(IL2 v1.2)- 5 missions, all bombers shot down lost 2 A.I friendlys total most would have slight damage, player never shot down...took some hits, but never enough damage to not reach home base. Notes: bombers always stayed in formation, all bomber gunners would fire with enemy in view.Friendly A.I would continue to follow orders and press attack until out of ammo or damaged.

(AEP) - 5missions averaged out he111s losses 75-80%.Friendly losses averaged out 30-60%. Player killed in 3 of 5 missions mostly instant kill from 400+ meters. Notes: Bombers did not stay in formation started flying around like they were fighters.Half friendly squad would dissengage not even half way thru fighting and go on thier marry way...hense the 2 or three to survive.Friendly A.I would not follow orders. Bomber gunners were mostly inactive but when they shot it was laser fire even at ranges of 1000m.Took Several cannon shots to blow wing off bomger-(this seemed realistic)
Conclusion: I don't see where bombers are too easy,I think the numbers speak for themselfs and I have noticed in "this case scenario" that the A.I in the game has deteriorated from what it once was i.e A.I interaction and routine.

(Final note)Tactics as player attacking bombers; never from 6 most attacks from from front 10 to 2 o'clk high or low.

Take what you will from this...only my observations

bazzaah2
05-13-2004, 07:43 AM
AI is a bit too erratic now. Irritating to have a B17 try and fight like a Yak. More planes seems to equal less AI?

Easy to get engines smoking with the Hurri v He111 - if you're careless and sit on their 6 they shoot you up in return. Fwiw, my feeling (and it's no more than that) is that it's more or less right. Could do with finessing of course and hope patch will address some issues. But usually, takes a few passes and some tactics to bring a bomber down. Sometimes it doesn't - you get a PK or whatever and down they go.

I saw an interview on TV with a German pilot who praised how easy it was to down a 17 with 'later' German weapons, though he didn't specify in which planes and with which weapons. Maybe its more a question of combat rather than flight simulation - in FB, Luftjocks don't go up against 500+ 17s with hundreds of escorts in this game. Sure if one could (and it would be good!) then bombers would seem a lot harder to bring down as it would be a lot harder to get near them. As someone said above, if it were a real life or death situation then things would be very different.

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Luftcaca
05-13-2004, 12:45 PM
"Irritating to have a B17 try and fight like a Yak"

yeah I agree, sometimes you engage Il4's and suddenly they try to turn with you wtf???

I dont often fight B-17's since I mostly play campaigns but I heard many times that they were also behaving in an erratic way when attacked....

anyway...cant wait for the next patch...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

darkhorizon11
05-13-2004, 08:59 PM
Too be honest with you the damage model seems inconsistent to me which is probably how it was in real life. Earlier today I shot up a B17 pretty good in 262. First, direct hit on engine one which caught on fire but was still working, then I blew off his left aileron and got some wing root hits and he still kept going. He was banged up pretty good but still flying, I had to break up of because of an engine fire (d@mn glass jets). Yet there have been other instances where I've dissected a wing with one hit. On the next mission I flew the U4 with its howitzer. It took three hits to drop the Fortress with that thing, one on the wing root (the wing stayed on). Next I blew off the rudder (he was screwed by that point cause he lost all directional control), then to finishing him of i took him head on and blew him to smithereens. Just like in real life those fortresses could take hits like theres no tommorrow and sometimes all it takes is one lucky shot in the right place and thats all she wrote!