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Elzziwelzzif
05-03-2017, 06:50 AM
I've been thinking...
Some heroes seem to be unable to actively counter the turtle meta. Having to guardbreak (and get countered), faintspam and use cheap spam tactics ones you break through doesn't make it much fun.

So, what if more classes get unblockable attacks? Would they be able to cut through overly defensive players? I would think so.

The heroes that could use some sort of unblockable (in my book):
Berserker, Orochi, Nobushi, PK and Conc.

For a few of them i already had a (simple) idea:

Berserker:
Their zone attack could be followed up by a (charged) heavy, which will be unblockable.
This unblockable can be fainted.
Regardless if its a faint or connects, a second chain option becomes available: a second zone attack which will consists of unblockable attacks.

Conc:
A simple one, as they have their shield already to open op enemies.
The charged heavy attack will be an unblockable hit.

Orochi:
For this one i would use their "jump back > charge" attack.
Give this attack an option to faint the hit, and a follow up (double light attack) which will be unblockable.

Nobushi:
Suggested this one before...
Enable her kick to be activated from both sprint and front dash.

PK:
This one is pretty hard.
My choise would be the heavy into faint-stab, though i could see this end up being abused.
Maybe change it from a bleed to a low damage attack?

Anyone has further thoughts about this?

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 08:05 AM
I'd rather if we didn't.



"When there's shi*, you don't spread it around. You clean it"

- excerpts from me


I'd rather the devs frickin' get rid of all the cheesy-as-pork Unblockable + Unparriable + Uninterruptable + gives guaranteed extra hit + gives out 50/50 kicked out of this game.

Lyskir
05-03-2017, 08:09 AM
just no..

matt89connor
05-03-2017, 09:00 AM
I've been thinking...
Some heroes seem to be unable to actively counter the turtle meta. Having to guardbreak (and get countered), faintspam and use cheap spam tactics ones you break through doesn't make it much fun.

So, what if more classes get unblockable attacks? Would they be able to cut through overly defensive players? I would think so.

The heroes that could use some sort of unblockable (in my book):
Berserker, Orochi, Nobushi, PK and Conc.

For a few of them i already had a (simple) idea:

Berserker:
Their zone attack could be followed up by a (charged) heavy, which will be unblockable.
This unblockable can be fainted.
Regardless if its a faint or connects, a second chain option becomes available: a second zone attack which will consists of unblockable attacks.

Conc:
A simple one, as they have their shield already to open op enemies.
The charged heavy attack will be an unblockable hit.

Orochi:
For this one i would use their "jump back > charge" attack.
Give this attack an option to faint the hit, and a follow up (double light attack) which will be unblockable.

Nobushi:
Suggested this one before...
Enable her kick to be activated from both sprint and front dash.

PK:
This one is pretty hard.
My choise would be the heavy into faint-stab, though i could see this end up being abused.
Maybe change it from a bleed to a low damage attack?

Anyone has further thoughts about this?

I understand your idea, but think for a moment, Unblockble is a special attack, like bleed or projection, so if all heroes has easy unblock, the game lost their fun, because all players spam unblock with every heroes XD...

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 09:29 AM
If it's worth anything, my opinion is it's actually the reverse. Instead of proliferating more unblockables (I call them "shi*") and basically making all classes do similar, non-stop shi* spamming, IMO we need to go the oppiste direction and get rid of UB spams from the handful classes that have them.

Instead of giving cheap canopener to everyone to open up turtles, we get rid of ALL the cheap canopeners and see what happens.
When nobody has chea canopeners, you need to come out of the turtleshell and take risks and attack to win.

But of course, you can still win by defense alone when if parry-guaranteed damage and GB-guaranteed damage remains the same.
Hence, we remove that too.

So now, no matter how strong a defense you have, you can't win by just defending and going for parries. You NEED to attack to inflict damage -- attacking means taking risks. Turtles are opened up.


But with the system we have which blocks are superior against light attacks, all combos are virtually disabled. So we remove superior block against light attacks on normal block.


= Now, we have a real sword-play game with reasonable amounts of the old FH elements intact, yet reinvigorated more aggressive and proactive, offensive swordplay.

Elzziwelzzif
05-03-2017, 10:05 AM
If it's worth anything, my opinion is it's actually the reverse. Instead of proliferating more unblockables (I call them "shi*") and basically making all classes do similar, non-stop shi* spamming, IMO we need to go the oppiste direction and get rid of UB spams from the handful classes that have them.

Instead of giving cheap canopener to everyone to open up turtles, we get rid of ALL the cheap canopeners and see what happens.
When nobody has chea canopeners, you need to come out of the turtleshell and take risks and attack to win.

But of course, you can still win by defense alone when if parry-guaranteed damage and GB-guaranteed damage remains the same.
Hence, we remove that too.

So now, no matter how strong a defense you have, you can't win by just defending and going for parries. You NEED to attack to inflict damage -- attacking means taking risks. Turtles are opened up.


But with the system we have which blocks are superior against light attacks, all combos are virtually disabled. So we remove superior block against light attacks on normal block.


= Now, we have a real sword-play game with reasonable amounts of the old FH elements intact, yet reinvigorated more aggressive and proactive, offensive swordplay.
You mentioned one of the biggest problems in the game atm:
Lights deflecting on blocks.

With heavy attacks i can understand it, as you put your whole body behind your swing. With lights you shouldn't bounce around after every hit, opening yourself up for turtles to punish you.
Allowing light spam against a shield user/ turtle increases the preasure on them.

Currently i have the frustration that most defensive players just create a stalemate.
You cant kill them. If the have some skill they just wreck you and turtle up.
If the dont have skills they can just sit there and wait for back-up, and there's nothing you can do.

pmkr0
05-05-2017, 01:14 AM
You mentioned one of the biggest problems in the game atm:
Lights deflecting on blocks.

With heavy attacks i can understand it, as you put your whole body behind your swing. With lights you shouldn't bounce around after every hit, opening yourself up for turtles to punish you.
Allowing light spam against a shield user/ turtle increases the preasure on them.

Currently i have the frustration that most defensive players just create a stalemate.
You cant kill them. If the have some skill they just wreck you and turtle up.
If the dont have skills they can just sit there and wait for back-up, and there's nothing you can do.
god, you really have no idea how shields and swords work, a light attack has no force to it to go against the shield parry, its way easier to push the weapon awy with the shield and create an opening. Just watch some fight videos on youtube, you can do that can't you ? A heavier blow is harder to push aside and possibly more damaging thats why you only focus on blocking. Common sense, or so i thought

Elzziwelzzif
05-05-2017, 08:17 AM
god, you really have no idea how shields and swords work, a light attack has no force to it to go against the shield parry, its way easier to push the weapon awy with the shield and create an opening. Just watch some fight videos on youtube, you can do that can't you ? A heavier blow is harder to push aside and possibly more damaging thats why you only focus on blocking. Common sense, or so i thought

Maybe you should stop watching fight video's of some fat dude in his back yard. You cant use that as reference for real combat.

If you hit a shield without full force (light attack) you can just slide it off yourself and keep on the pressure.
You won't have to start over like some puppet/ machine.
If you hit it with full force (aka trying to hit through your opponent/ the shield) you either stop dead in your tracks if equal forces meet or something will buckle (shield, either weapon of either fighter).

Depending on the weapon, light attacks aren't for cleaving your opponent in two, but to search for and exploit openings.

You can push my spear aside (i play nuboshi), but unless you actively disable my spear or redirect (deflect) it when i put my whole body behind it (look at how the nobushi does an heavy attack) ill just pull back my "spear" for another stab.