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Vasher.
05-03-2017, 04:41 AM
I'm pretty sure this was brought up, but I'm not sure on how we can stabilize everything. I feel like there is a large disparity in balance with light attacks and block speeds. Mainly for the slower characters blocking compared to the fast light attacks of the faster characters.

I've noticed this a lot as I main a Raider (I know...it's a tough life). I think it'd be very difficult to continue to Nerf speeds and adjust "Balance" when we all know that's nearly impossible for a multiplayer game. Also, nerfing speeds or making everyone the same speed for blocking defeats playing faster characters abilities.

I think the Devs need some better feedback other then just Nerf this and Nerf that. Obviously there are some adjustment issues that need addressing...but, I hope we don't continue down the Nerf hole.

p.s. Give the Raider some love.

Regards,

CoyoteXStarrk
05-03-2017, 04:44 AM
Agree 100%

Block speed needs to be universal.

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 05:02 AM
Block speeds need to be normalized at around 18fps standard, and 12fps for assassins.

Vasher.
05-03-2017, 05:05 AM
So it appears most people seem to think the block speeds are off...that's good to know. I hope the Devs address this as being a slower character literally means you have to dodge away if light attacks are being spammed...which IMO defeats the purpose of a fighting game if my only means is to retreat.

Antonioj26
05-03-2017, 05:22 AM
Block speeds need to be normalized at around 18fps standard, and 12fps for assassins.

18 is way too slow I think. If I remember right that's the exact speed of pks zone so it would literally be unreactable, it would have to be blocked by reads. Everyone's fastest lights I believe with a few exceptions are between 30-32 so that might also be a bit rough having only 12-14 frames to react but I guess it is possible and would help getting rid of the turtle meta.

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 05:40 AM
18 is way too slow I think. If I remember right that's the exact speed of pks zone so it would literally be unreactable, it would have to be blocked by reads. Everyone's fastest lights I believe with a few exceptions are between 30-32 so that might also be a bit rough having only 12-14 frames to react but I guess it is possible and would help getting rid of the turtle meta.

Well 20~22 is what us Raider, Nobushi folk have been living with, as compared to "easy-modes" reported at 6fps, such as Wardens or PKs. :D

Jokes aside, 6fps blocks are just too easy, and serves as a part of the problem that contributes to the turtlemeta. IMO, ALL classes should have similar blocking difficulties at the level where the most difficult classes are, not the other way around.

IMO lights are supposed to be hard to block. In the "light spam" of PKs, the issue wasn't that the lights were fast, but rather the frame deficit/delay time between the light-light repetitions were too short, hence the increased recovery frame for the fix, not slowing the PK lights down.

Of course, I can't speak for console users, but honestly, they should separate console version forums and have them discuss their matters separately, like most other game forums do.

Antonioj26
05-03-2017, 05:48 AM
Well 20~22 is what us Raider, Nobushi folk have been living with, as compared to "easy-modes" reported at 6fps, such as Wardens or PKs. :D

Jokes aside, 6fps blocks are just too easy, and serves as a part of the problem that contributes to the turtlemeta. IMO, ALL classes should have similar blocking difficulties at the level where the most difficult classes are, not the other way around.

IMO lights are supposed to be hard to block. In the "light spam" of PKs, the issue wasn't that the lights were fast, but rather the frame deficit/delay time between the light-light repetitions were too short, hence the increased recovery frame for the fix, not slowing the PK lights down.

Of course, I can't speak for console users, but honestly, they should separate console version forums and have them discuss their matters separately, like most other game forums do.

Raider is my most played hero but I have fairly close play time with warlord and there's definitely a world of difference. I agree they should be hard to block but reactable. Like I said gettig passed the turtle meta is a step in the right direction but I think people's frustrations of the block speed limitations might actually push more people away. I play on console and the frustration seeing a light attack coming and knowing I have the reactions to parry it but can't because of deadzone, input delay, and guard speed can be discouraging.

Moondyne_MC
05-03-2017, 07:12 AM
Well 20~22 is what us Raider, Nobushi folk have been living with, as compared to "easy-modes" reported at 6fps, such as Wardens or PKs. :D

Jokes aside, 6fps blocks are just too easy, and serves as a part of the problem that contributes to the turtlemeta. IMO, ALL classes should have similar blocking difficulties at the level where the most difficult classes are, not the other way around.

IMO lights are supposed to be hard to block. In the "light spam" of PKs, the issue wasn't that the lights were fast, but rather the frame deficit/delay time between the light-light repetitions were too short, hence the increased recovery frame for the fix, not slowing the PK lights down.

Of course, I can't speak for console users, but honestly, they should separate console version forums and have them discuss their matters separately, like most other game forums do.

This, exactly. While it'd be nice for my Nobushi to be able to block lights easier, once you get to the higher level play it just turns in nonstop blocking/parrying, resulting in nearly 100% dependence on feinting. Toning everyone else's guard switch speeds down to the Nobu/Raider/Lawbie level could help break the turtle meta by making lights more viable again.

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 07:44 AM
This, exactly. While it'd be nice for my Nobushi to be able to block lights easier, once you get to the higher level play it just turns in nonstop blocking/parrying, resulting in nearly 100% dependence on feinting. Toning everyone else's guard switch speeds down to the Nobu/Raider/Lawbie level could help break the turtle meta by making lights more viable again.

Hence, my line of reasoning as suggested in prior posts, lead to....

**Shameless thread advertisement**

"Suggestion: Remove "superior block vs. lights" on normal block"
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1651623-Suggestion-Remove-quot-superior-block-vs-lights-quot-on-normal-block


...:D Really, at first I thought what it'd be like if ALL classes' lights were as fast as PKs, and ALL classes' blocks were as slow as Raid/Nobs. But then I realized some people might be greatly effected by this and suffer grievanes. So then, how do we make it possible to make blocks more difficult without raising the speed of lights, or making all guardswitch slower?

Answer: We allow people to throw more attacks to increase their general chances of some attacks making it through. We allow them to use combos and branching attacks more freely, without them having to suffer every attack attempt being cut off with just 1 block -- since every attack attempt being stopped when your 1st light attack being blocked, makes it an environment that greatly favors:


(1) people with initially better physique(reflexes)
(2) people inclined toward defense
(3) classes that have spammy unblockables (= because, while they can just shut down all enemy attacks with a blocks, they themselves are free to just bypass enemy block/parry turtling by over-using moves that are unblockable and unparriable as an "opener".)


Move away from this, by proliferating the freedom to use more moves without the oppression of a single block just shutting you down! :D

Lyskir
05-03-2017, 08:12 AM
I'm pretty sure this was brought up, but I'm not sure on how we can stabilize everything. I feel like there is a large disparity in balance with light attacks and block speeds. Mainly for the slower characters blocking compared to the fast light attacks of the faster characters.

I've noticed this a lot as I main a Raider (I know...it's a tough life). I think it'd be very difficult to continue to Nerf speeds and adjust "Balance" when we all know that's nearly impossible for a multiplayer game. Also, nerfing speeds or making everyone the same speed for blocking defeats playing faster characters abilities.

I think the Devs need some better feedback other then just Nerf this and Nerf that. Obviously there are some adjustment issues that need addressing...but, I hope we don't continue down the Nerf hole.

p.s. Give the Raider some love.

Regards,

100% agree

Charmzzz
05-03-2017, 08:23 AM
PC PK Main here, faced a MLG Raider Main who blocked or parried EVERY Light Attack from me. How is this possible if it is impossible like you said?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSWm4YIPd1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg

Look at those Videos. Yes the Guard Switch is different between the classes. But that does not mean it is impossible to react to a fast incoming attack, it is only if you keep rotating your Guard.

matt89connor
05-03-2017, 08:49 AM
speak about of block speed, Warlord 1 of the best XD....i understand your idea of universal block speed but, there are heroes like shoguki ,who need to have slow speed block( for example because of the armor), and there are hero, like conqueror, where they need a more speed block , so if you want an universal speed i think the game become very unbalance now, because many heroes if they lost speed they become very weak (because the game was build for defense meta remeber?) XD

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 09:39 AM
PC PK Main here, faced a MLG Raider Main who blocked or parried EVERY Light Attack from me. How is this possible if it is impossible like you said?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSWm4YIPd1U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg

Look at those Videos. Yes the Guard Switch is different between the classes. But that does not mean it is impossible to react to a fast incoming attack, it is only if you keep rotating your Guard.

Let's put it this way.

I'm an average level player, and when I meet someone clearly better than myself, I get almost every moved blocked and parried. But in turn, when I meet a player that's clearly less skilled than myself, I block and parry almost all of their moves. In actual combat there's a lot more variables coming into play, most particularly difference in experience and the sense of "rhythm" or "combat flow", which allows someone less than yourself to be much more predictable than when you're facing someone of similar skill level or superior. From that point, it's only a matter of training and reflexes.

Like, for example, two different players can use the same top-light/ZA 50/50 spam with the same class, except when a less skilled player uses it, he uses it bluntly and at very predictable, regular timing. The Warden/Orochu ZA is clearly faster than most people's reflexes when you're using a slow guardswitch class, but even under that situation an average player like me can still block or parry it. But when a similar level player grabs hold of the same class, the amount of pressure and unpredictability is just totally different. You get all sorts of doubts and second guesses as to whether he'll really use that particular attack or not... and when it's a superior player, then I have no idea at all even when he's only using those two moves.

So it's pribably a relative skill-difference issue.