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kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 02:49 AM
Warning: Wall of text and large amounts of reasoning


Lately I've been thinking about the "turtlemeta", the difference between the standard "Japanese style" fighting games and FH's "AoB(Art of Battle)", and the general frustration players feel when meeting higher skilled opponents. The conclusion I've came to, due to reasoning I won't explain here, is that FH's AoB system is a lot more deep and takes up a considerably longer time to get used to, than compared to the more standard Japanese style side-view + high-low guard 3D fighting games.

One result of such, is that difference in skill between the players in FH manifests in a much more exaggerated and vivid form than most other 3D fighting games. Were it in any other game, the player with lower skill would actually be able to at least try and use a skill or a combination attack he's memorized off the moveset (...and then get countered, juggled,.. hit by an aerial combo that blows half his HP in one go, and lose)

In comparison, difference of skill in FH manifests in the form of "absolute disparity in the stability of reactionary defense" -- or in easier words, "nothing works". In FH, a lower skilled player basically has no chance of penetrating the defenses of someone of higher skill. In this game, when yo go up against someone superior than you, you're either blocked or parried from your very first attempt to swing your weapon, and basically "shut down" afterwards.

So, naturally, in FH you are reminded that the other guy is better than you in skill, in one of the most brutal forms I've seen in fighting games during the last two decades. It is really, really brutal.

...

Now, what does this have to do with the "superior light block status on your normal blocks" -- or, in simpler terms, how your light attacks are cut off from attempting to chain into combos when it's blocked?

It's that most 3D fighting games don't have such a system. For example, in a standard fighting game like "Tekken" or "Virtua Fighter" series, the attacker is free to use combo moves -- let's say, for example, a jab-straight-uppercut 3-punch combo, even if the opponent guards it. Certain moves with special traits, like sweeping knockdowns, will have consequences when blocked, but most of the moves in the moveset can be used freely. Were it in FH, then the blocking system would permit you to throw only the jab, and your straight and uppercut would be shut-off, because your combo move stops at the very first jab being blocked.

Nowadays, I'm thinking perhaps this also had a hand in bringing out the "turtlemeta" in this game. Because a system like this intensifies the importance of defense in that a successful block will most likely always shut your opponent's combo moves from even happening in the first place.

Why this contributes to the turtlemeta, IMO, is that a successful block immediately shuts off all momentum, passion of the moment, your flow of combat. It shuts off any possible variation moves that may come off from your combo attempts... and then, immediately hands over the initiative to the opponent.

Now, combine this tendency with the FH's manifestation of skill differences I've written above: from the start, the initiative remains in the hand of the superior player. The lesser player has even his very first opening attempt blocked off, so the superior player never loses initiative, blocks, parries, and counters all of the lesser player's moves, and then the lesser players is totally repressed and passive, not able to hit the superior player even once -- not even an accidental hit.

In turn, this also makes it easier to defend. To those reading this, I want you to imagine the rare occassions where you actually were able to fire off a combo move against someone clearly better than you.. and with it's branching moves or right-left slashes, even that superior player got hit by you a few times, because even if it was just for a moment, his defense was shaken a little bit because you were able to throw enough attacks on him.



See, that is actually my point, right there.

No one is truly "infallible" (unless using a hack or something), and even good players can get hit a few times when they've been hit with an unexpected attack, or their concentration slips a little. In the instances when you were actually able to fire off some combo moves and push the other guy to defend it without getting your attacks disrupted by blocks that's when you gain the initiative, when the flow and the momentum of the fight goes in your favor.


In the current version of FH, normal blocks all have that "superior against light" status that stops a light attack from chaining into a combo attack. And for almost all classes in FH, their moves start with a light. And the implications and standing effects to the "turtlemeta", as I have analyzed, is as follows:


Effects of "superior against light attacks" status on your standard, normal guard

(1) It makes the defense easier in that every successful block shuts off the possibility of following branching attacks via combos. A defense-centered tactic will basically remove the viability of all variation/combo moves from the bout, and will turn it into a contest of singular moves.

(2) When the bout is reduced into a contest of singular moves, it means the total number of attack attempts itself is greatly reduced. It means the rythm of the fight only flows at a single, predictable pace, without certain bursts of attacks or variety of moves. It reduces the variety of moves you have to successfully defend against, down to only a few "openers".

(3) When two players face off each other, and the moves they may use against the other player only comes as singular attacks, it is much easier to predict. Therefore, the player which is capable of delivering a more accurate, stable defense input wil always have the upperhand without dangers of facing overwhelming amount of attacks, or unexpected bursts or variations of attacks

(4) This, also means any class that has a relative safe "opener" skill that is able to penetrate the normal blocks -- such as "spam" moves on the OP classes -- will naturally be in a very, very highly advantaged state.



The suggestion
- Remove "superior block status againt light attacks" from all normal blocks, so even if your first light attack is blocked. you can keep on using your combo moves that branch off from it.

Intended Effect
(1) increase the general pace of combat
(2) provide stronger attack options for those who dare to attack first and gain combat initiative
(3) introduce more variables to the defender, to make "turtling" more difficult



I want you to guys to imagine carefully, how the combat would be different if your first "opener" move, even if blocked, does not stop your seoncd and third combo moves.

I want you guys to think about WHY tje Warden SB spamming, Warlord HB spamming, Conq shieldbash spamming, and PK light spams, Lawb shove spams are so difficult to counter. In theory, and in limited practices, there are ways to counter those individual moves, and yet, in actual combat, it's so hard. Why is that?

It's because in actual combat, all of those "easy, safe, spammable" opening attacks retain for its user the combat initiative, and allow him the freedom of action to branch into different types of attacks to confuse you even more -- whereas, your own options being so limited, you become psychologically repressed and passive, sluggish in reaction and frustrated.

But what if your light attacks aren't stopped from branching into combos? Instantly, the options you may use are doubled, tripled. Some top level players parry even light attacks, but in most cases, in the general skill level most of us are at, unless it's too predictable light attacks are usually blocked, than parried.

There's that turtle guy right there. In the current FH, I can attempt any type of attack, but in reality its just a form of light attack going into one of three directions. He guards that, then I can't do anything anymore. My next attack is about to come soon, so the timing's predictable, and it becomes even easier for him to block, or even parry it.

But what if my 1st light attack doesn't stop the combos. I dare to throw the 1st attack. It's blocked. But then I have a choice I can force on to the opponent. Do I stop the attack there? Do I go into a combo and use a delayed 2nd attack? Do I use two attacks, and then attempt a GB? Do I go for the 3rd move, also delayed? The opponent may still be able to block that, but still it leaves the initiative within my hands. It makes sense to be aggressive and proactive, because the more different choices, things to think about I force upon the other guy, the more it becomes likely for him to falter and crack that turtle shell.


I actually believe, at this point, this alone might even do away with the turtlemeta without any of the other changes.

This, was my conclusion. This is what's making it so difficult for new players to adapt, and so difficult to crack through the turtle meta. This is why also the importance of spammy UB/UP skills became so high.

By removing "superior block status against light attacks" from normal block, it unlocks ALL of the options you have in your moveset to be thrown at the "turtle". Turtling is easier when it's always singular attacks coming in certain intervals in one of three directions. But, would it be as much easy if we are free to pile up additional choices and mindgames onto the turtle? How much of the combo we use. When we stop our attacks. Whether we maneuver or stay ground, whether we mixup a heavy attack or a feint in the middle of those combos... all of these are new choices/alernatives we get, and as much thrown on top of the turtle to handle.

Maxime_Qc-
05-02-2017, 03:05 AM
i like your suggestion !!

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 03:35 AM
i like your suggestion !!

The reasoning comes from how FH might benefit from implementing some of the flow-mechanics of modern fighting games. If we interpret FH into the modern, Japanese style, side-view 3D fighting game genre, the flow of combat would be like this:


Two fighters, A nd B approach, each one is a formiddable fighter with some 10~15 different moves.

- A throws a jab. It's blocked. A can't use any combos because jab was blocked.
- B throws a sweet looking low kick, which can branch into a low-high kick combo.. but it's meaningless.. because it's blocked. It stops there.
- A attempts an awesome left-right hook combo.. except the left hook is blocked.. so it stops there..
- B attempts a one-two-highkick combo... except the jab was blocked.. so it stops there...



So.. when you fight a quite capable turtle player using a spamming UB move... it's like this...

- A throws a jab. It's blocked. A can't use any combos because jab was blocked.
- B does nothing.
- A attempts an awesome left-right hook combo.. B parries the left hook and counters a strong uppercut. A is hurt bad
- B does nothing.
- A tries a left-right lightning kicks.. but the attack stops at left kick, because, yeah, it's blocked
- A's fustrated. Becomes pressured and passive
- B shoves him. It just ignores A's guard. A is thrown back and gets hit.
- A attempts a desperate one-two-uppercut.. but... what else? the one is blocked, so no two, no uppercut
- B does nothing...


...so A is basically limited to 1 attack each, at certain intervals, that's blocked or parried. The player playing A is bound to get the impression that the game's slow-paced, too difficult, imbalanced, or plain not fun... because the choices are so limited.


Instead, it should be like this...


- A throws a jab. It's blocked..
- B does nothing.
- A attempts an awesome left-right hook combo.. B parries the left hook and counters a strong uppercut. A is hurt bad
- B does nothing.
- A tries a left-right lightning kicks.. B blocks the left, but A decides to delay his right kick. B didn't expect that, and gets hit while trying to retaliate
- A tries a four-punch combo. B blocks the first punch. A decides to only throw three, and grapple B. B barely counters it and gets away.
- B shoves A. It just ignores A's guard. A is thrown back and gets hit.
- A attempts a desperate one-two-uppercut.. B blocks one, B blocks two, but the uppercut comes at an unexpected direction.. B is hit.
- B does nothing...
- A keeps on attacking with combos, Combos are too fast to parry, so B just blocks.
- A tries mixing in more different timing between combos, tricks.
- B starts feeling pressure
...and the fight continues

The boldened parts are all results that would follow, if the damned system did not decide to just stop all moves once the other guy blocks a light.


Basically, removing the "superior block against lights" status from normal guard, would be the equivalent of giving pressuring tools and "openers" to ALL classes, without having to add in moe unblockable spam shi* or changing the fundamental basics of the game, or having to design something totally new.

I'm guessing that even the current block damage (= chip damage) might come into play as a bigger factor, because currently, nobody is allowed to throw enough attacks for block damage to stack anyways. Both players in their turtling game, rarely any attacks, throw 1 attack, stops there if blocked. But if people were trying to get the initiative and start banging on the other guy's defenses with rampant combos, the block damage is bound to stack up more noticeably.

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 04:14 AM
Classes that receive remedies from this change
- ALL classes that do not have quick/easy UB/UP skill, and has trouble getting through enemy defenses with just normal attacks

- Raider: more opportunites to use light-light
- Kensei significantly better opportunities to use tactics depending on 3rd UB strike strike and feiniting it
- Orochi: increased efficiency of light mixups
- Nobushi: increased efficiency of light mixups


Classes that would become quie powerful from this change and might need rebalancing
- classes that have disablers or knockdowns as part of combo

- Conqueror: more opportunities to use shieldbash after attack
- Peacekeeper: possibility of light spam becoming overpowered again
- Berserker:possibility of light spam becoming overpowered again
- Valkyrie light-light-sweep will become considerably more dangerous


Classes that won't be effected much

- Warden
- Lawbringer
- Warlrod
- Shugoki

DrExtrem
05-02-2017, 05:11 AM
Your suggestion might be a good thing for PC but would kill what little is left on consoles.

On PC, people are having problems, because their light attacks get parried. Your suggestion would not fix that part of the problem.

On console, people are having problems with light attacks and they can't reliably parry them. It is even hard to block them properly.

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 06:07 AM
Your suggestion might be a good thing for PC but would kill what little is left on consoles.

On PC, people are having problems, because their light attacks get parried. Your suggestion would not fix that part of the problem.

On console, people are having problems with light attacks and they can't reliably parry them. It is even hard to block them properly.

Doc, whatever people say about what happens in PC, is simply not true.

YES there are monsters, extreme freaks of nature that seem to have superhuman reflexes and not just block lights, but parries them no matter what different timing it is used. But I assure you, these guys at very high levels of gameplay, and also rare.

The absolute majority of people, average elvel players that would constitute maybe around 70~80% of the game population, even in PC environment, don't just parry every light on reflex. Those guys are super-high tourney level players, not the everyday players you meet as you go in multiplayer matches. In most cases, people prefer to block the lights because it's more stable and safe.

Just because it's PC doesn't mean PC players all have superior reflexes, or the better framerates universally take positive effect for all of us -- in most cases average players are average.

Besides, this change applies to everyone, not to just few. If it's more difficult to reliably block/parry against in console environment, it means it's the same for your opponent as well, and becomes a reason enough to risk go on the offensive. It means it's that effective of an offensive tool. More people will take up their hopes in attacks -- if anything, at least they get to try a few moves even if they get creamed by a superior player.

If it is indeed problematic as you say, wouldn't you rather have it being a problem with everyone wanting to be aggressive and proactive, rather than sitting quiet in endless feinting games? :D

Herbstlicht
05-02-2017, 06:35 AM
Well, Valks are already so fast, they get their light chains in on console easy. So it would not mean too much of a buff to them. Like these Ideas.

DrExtrem
05-02-2017, 07:24 AM
Your idea is not bad and I only wanted to show the possible downside for console gameplay.

Removing the superior blocking of light attacks on console would boost fast attacking classes even further. Namely pk, valk, nobushi, orochi and zerker. Kensei would become an unstoppable power, simply because of the high damaging light attacks.

Right now, your only chance not to be spammed to death by light attacks, is to block the first one. If you fail to block the first light attack on console, the other strikes usually hit. In the case of the nobushi, it means a guaranteed bleed and increased damage taken, zerker spams you to death, valk would be able to stun you with her last bit of her light combo and pk? ... Well... pk.

Balvine
05-02-2017, 07:41 AM
What will happen to the characters with slower guard stance changing speed? (ie. Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer). They would get utterly destroyed by light spam. If this goes through I suggest making everyones guard change the same speed

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 09:12 AM
Your idea is not bad and I only wanted to show the possible downside for console gameplay.

Removing the superior blocking of light attacks on console would boost fast attacking classes even further. Namely pk, valk, nobushi, orochi and zerker. Kensei would become an unstoppable power, simply because of the high damaging light attacks.

Right now, your only chance not to be spammed to death by light attacks, is to block the first one. If you fail to block the first light attack on console, the other strikes usually hit. In the case of the nobushi, it means a guaranteed bleed and increased damage taken, zerker spams you to death, valk would be able to stun you with her last bit of her light combo and pk? ... Well... pk.


What will happen to the characters with slower guard stance changing speed? (ie. Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer). They would get utterly destroyed by light spam. If this goes through I suggest making everyones guard change the same speed


Interestingly enough, the devs actually already came up with a solution for that, in the case of the slight nerfs to PK's light-light combo by adding increased recovery time when the 2nd light finishes.

In conventional 3D fighting games, this concept is known as "frame deficit". The stuff like PK light spams, or Berserker light-light-light infini-attacks, for example, happen because in general FH tends to have quite high recovery time for the defender, whereas quite low recovery time for the attacker.



For example, in the older versions, tThe PK swings a light-light, combo and you guard the 2nd attack. Seeing you successfull guarded the 2nd light, you try for an immediate retaliation with your own light attack, but the next PK light-light comes out faster than yours and becomes a "stop-hit" and interrupts your attack. For classes with slower guardchange speeds, you're hard pressed to even block the next incoming light-light combo, much less think of retaliation. Hence, the devs took the correct step to increase the "deficit" of frames for the PK an additional 100ms (6 fps) after the 2nd light finishes.

This means it is possible to tweak recovery times -- and simply a matter of tweaking upto the right amount.

The ideal situation would be tweaking the "end point" and re-designing the frame deficit of each combos, so that after you successfully block a certain light combo coming from your opponent, the opponent suffers a deficit in frames large enough that your immediate light attack retaliation will stop-hit(interrupt) the opponent's next light.attempt, but will not be guaranteed a hit if the opponent blocks... and if you were hit by the opponent's light combo, your immediate light attack retaliation will be stop-hit by the opponent's next attack, but the opponent will still have deficit high enough to give you a fair chance of blocking it even with a slower guard.



So it's a beginning point and a chance for real "mind games" to be introduced to the flow of FH's combat --- not like the cheap-arse 1-button coin-toss fake "mind game" the WarDochi players abuse with the top-light/ZA spamming.

What I mean by this, is a little more familar combat flow from conventional 3D fighting games can be added in to FH to help things go smoother.



For example the combat flow of a typical 3D fighting game starts from a one-two punch, or any short, relatively safe 2~4 attack combos. The attacker throws the relative safe and compact moves, forces a guard upon the defender, and then REACTS to the defender's next move, whether through anticipation or actual reflex-reaction. For example the attacker can throw a one-two punch, and then anticipate the defender's next move and try for (for example)

- (a) side-dodge and immediately counter the opponent's retaliation attempt
- (b) duck the opponent's immediate retaliation and attack low
- (c) play safe and just guard the opponent's retaliation
- (d) antcipate the opponent's become passive, and press on even more attacks

...and etc..

Currently, you can't do this in FH because the superior block vs lights ends your attack there and immediately turns over the initiative to the opponent. When you are blocked your attack ends there. When the opponent player is superior than you, he will ALWAYS hold the initiative and gain total freedom to screw you over (*ahem*) in whatever way he likes, because he holds all the cards. Every time you are blocked on your first move, your initiative goes to the opponent and your flow of combat is reset, and your next move simply comes from only 3 options -- another top, right, or left light -- with plenty of time for your opponent to prepare for the next defense.



This is ESPECIALLY hurtful to a class like the Kensei, in which case the brunt of his "tricks" are with the 3rd UB attack, which can be feinted and branched out. Against opponents with good defense a Kensei player hardly, if ever, gets the opportunity to use the UB simply because he can't get that darned combo upto 3 attacks in the first place. EVERYTIME it stops at the first attack. All his attacks from dodge have only 1 designated directonal attack, and requires a hit or at least a whiff to move on to next. So basically against someone with equal talent the Kensei's just shut down -- the reason many people consider the Kensei to be even weaker than Raiders.

But if you can continue through your combo moveset, you can throw on to him another set of alternate attacks after you force the opponent to guard. After forcing the 1st guard, instead of having plenty of time to prepare for your next attack, the opponent must immediately process the next incoming attack and react to it faster. It's then after your combo and attack attempt is finished, the "deficit" will have to be enough so that the initiative naturally turns over, or almost turns over to your opponent -- your moves are spent, and it's your "turn" to defend -- or, as with the fighting game example I've given above, really anticipate the opponent's "turn" and attempt a counter to that -- but not in the form of light spamming, because enough frame deficit will prevent it.



The flow of combat will be more consistent -- provided if you're aggressive enough, and yet the "tide" will naturally turn over once your combo is finished, as with the example of the PK nerf to light-lights we got in 1.06.

Of course, like said, there needs to be some adjustments since a class with a built-in knockdown within the base combo movesets, like the Valk, could potentially become a problem with even more spamming. Also, some bullshi* skill traits like the Lawb push having a built-in Uninterruptable should probably also be removed, lest the Lawb simply breaks every one of your combo with Shove whether or not he's hit by your combos. But other than such additional tweaking it'd genuinely bring out a better, more fluid, and more aggressive combat experience than the "turtle" we have, which is especially brutal to lower skilled brackets of players.



I mean, if I am to be beaten senselessly by a superior player, I'd rather prefer to throw all the moves and combos to my heart's content, and then sit back and enjoy the epic glory of the opponent countering all of my various moves and finishing me off with his own combos (which I may memorize and steal...), rather than be at the seat of this grueling humiliation where I can't swing my sword more than once per attack, in a mechanical repetition of attack-parry-guaranteed damage, attack-parry-guaranteed damage, attack-parry-guaranteed damage repetition (which mostly relies on just pure physical reflex/response time, so I can't even copy it to learn and use...).... ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

Wouldn't you agree? :D :D

Halvtand
05-02-2017, 09:37 AM
Classes that would become quie powerful from this change and might need rebalancing
- classes that have disablers or knockdowns as part of combo

- Conqueror: more opportunities to use shieldbash after attack

Um, why? I get that a connected attack gives some hitstun, but a light attack should not give that much, so I don't really see this. It would, however, open up for the conq using his infinite light-combo.

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 09:42 AM
Um, why? I get that a connected attack gives some hitstun, but a light attack should not give that much, so I don't really see this. It would, however, open up for the conq using his infinite light-combo.

It's just a note towards that even if the light is blocked, can still initiate shieldbash -- meaning the Conq gains more options for mindgames than current.

DrExtrem
05-02-2017, 11:05 AM
First. 100ms are three frames - not six.

Usually, the recovery time of the guard is about one to two frames smaller, than the next attack needs to land. If you can not react within those two frames, your guard wil not change in time, to block the second strike.

The "Nerf" to the second light attack of the pk did nothing on console. It is still to fast for most players - especially in a mp environment.

Your suggestion would not buff disablers (valk and lb are already very strong to slightly op) - it would only buff players with fat attacks, because light hits hard counter most disabling moves. Lb wants to pancake you? Light strike. Enemy wants to gb you? Light strike. Shoulder charge? Light strike.

The difference is now, that they can easily connect a second strike and if it is blocked, the third can connect as well. In the case of nobushi and pk, you are then bleeding like a stuck pig while valk stuns and disorients you.

Alustar.exe
05-02-2017, 11:30 AM
I love this thread, Kweassa is life for starting this topic. I've thought about this very thing myself when playing, Ive played Soul Calibur for years and that's kind of how I looked at it.
I would love to see the devs look at this as I think not only would it help solve the slow defensive tactics as they are(because let's face it, who saw that beautiful trailer and got the game only to see some battles look like watching paint dry in comparison to the fast paced, chaotic **** storm that was FH in theory?)
as much as people will say it will benefit assassin classes heavily, just remember, this is across the board for all heroes, just give it a chance I know you will enjoy it.
As it stand this seems like the best way to break the overly defensive aspect and that waiting game to see who the first to parry is.
And here's why,
You all know we are going for the execution. I know it, they know it, hell even your gramma knows it and she doesn't even know she's watching a game.
So being able to chain together light attacks indescrimamently in someone's face would be more mentally challenging. Especially when you know that after a light gain you might then have a heavy coming from somewhere else.
What if that heavy hit is all that's needed for that sweet decal any?
Now good defense and being able to read an opponent is even more critical.

Being able to tell which directions opponent will come from out of three directions once every so often is easy. Being able to predict where my opponent will hit NEXT based off the entire match of feints and mix ups? Wow. That's more like the trailer I saw.

Halvtand
05-02-2017, 12:17 PM
It's just a note towards that even if the light is blocked, can still initiate shieldbash -- meaning the Conq gains more options for mindgames than current.
Conq doesn't chain SB from light attacks, only from heavy attacks.
From a light the conq would have to dash first and then SB, which would take so long that any hitstun on the opponent would be a non-issue.

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 03:49 PM
Conq doesn't chain SB from light attacks, only from heavy attacks.
From a light the conq would have to dash first and then SB, which would take so long that any hitstun on the opponent would be a non-issue.

Ah, my apologies. Confused that with the light swing. I guess it would mean the Conq gets to infini-swing without block stopping it, then? :D

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 04:05 PM
First. 100ms are three frames - not six.

Actually, :) it's six -- since the standard they use is PC@60fps, hence 100ms = 0.1s = 1/10th of the standard frame count within 1 second frame units = 1/10th of 60fps = 6 fps.



Usually, the recovery time of the guard is about one to two frames smaller, than the next attack needs to land. If you can not react within those two frames, your guard wil not change in time, to block the second strike.

The "Nerf" to the second light attack of the pk did nothing on console. It is still to fast for most players - especially in a mp environment.

Your suggestion would not buff disablers (valk and lb are already very strong to slightly op) - it would only buff players with fat attacks, because light hits hard counter most disabling moves. Lb wants to pancake you? Light strike. Enemy wants to gb you? Light strike. Shoulder charge? Light strike.

The difference is now, that they can easily connect a second strike and if it is blocked, the third can connect as well. In the case of nobushi and pk, you are then bleeding like a stuck pig while valk stuns and disorients you.

Honestly, I don't know what to say here since I have no relevant data in regards to console, nor have I ever seen a direct correlation between just how much of an ill-effect the 30fps standard for console have on reflex times. To make matters worse, I'm sure you also know people in open forums -- ESPECIALLY that of PvP games -- have a tendency to horribly exaggerate things.

Hey, not saying you're lying or anything like that, just saying it can be sometimes difficult to just take things at face value just because somebody said so, or claims so. Just for example I've recently switched over to a better, higher DPI mouse than the crappy cheap-thing I was using.. and... oh my god, the improvement in blocking and defense I've seen... and all this time I thought I just hopelessly sucked. :) What I'm trying to say is there could be a ot of different factors at work.

But IMO, the principle itself doesn't necessarily have to be different at all.

Usually, when developers fix certain things in their game, they tend to try to leave adding in something that requires totally new stuff to be programmed only as a last resort. That's usually the reason why many of the suggestions we make never get to see the light of day, like new mechanics or new animations and stuff. However, the fact that they changed the PK's frame delay implies a very hopeful situation that the system already supports change of such variables whether through simple change through base spreadsheeted data, or animation speed tweaking, or etc..

It means when it comes to this particular suggestion, it's actually a lot more realistic and feasible as a possible future fix -- than asking for console version to run at 60fps. Because the game has already been rendered and ported to 30fps downgrade -- which means a 60fps console version is basically the same thing as making a new game again. However, since the basic programming and coding principles remain the same, they can actually implement different delay times with skills between the PC version and the console version. --ie. technically, it is possible and feasible.

IMO another reason even console players should get in with the idea! :D

DrExtrem
05-02-2017, 04:14 PM
I am playing on console. And most of us do as well.

Console = 30fps

That's one of the core issues, that would make fast attacking heroes rule even harder, if you suggestions would br applied to the console.

kweassa1917
05-02-2017, 04:20 PM
I am playing on console. And most of us do as well.

Console = 30fps

That's one of the core issues, that would make fast attacking heroes rule even harder, if you suggestions would br applied to the console.

Which is why I addressed it in the final 1/4th of my prior post ;)

DrExtrem
05-02-2017, 04:23 PM
I am playing on console. And most of us do as well.

Console = 30fps

That's one of the core issues, that would make fast attacking heroes rule even harder, if you suggestions would br applied to the console.

Right now, the devs are not even acknowledging, that the PC and console versions are vastly different when it comes to gameplay. Before any attempts can be made to open up def- meta, we would need a def-meta on all platforms. Right now, we have a very defensive meta on PC and a fast attack meta on consoles.

DrExtrem
05-02-2017, 04:26 PM
Which is why I addressed it in the final 1/4th of my prior post ;)

i read it later but honestly ...

I know you want to highlight important things in your posts with different formating. To me it makes the article harder to read, because the flow is disturbed. I see and recognize the effort and hard work so please don't take it as personal criticism.

Alustar.exe
05-02-2017, 08:37 PM
I'd also like to see light attacks from the same direction (I strike from my right as an enemy strikes from his right) act as blade clashes canceling damage but allowing for a continued combo for both players.

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 01:53 AM
I'd also like to see light attacks from the same direction (I strike from my right as an enemy strikes from his right) act as blade clashes canceling damage but allowing for a continued combo for both players.

Not sure if a continued combo as a result for the "meeting blade with blade" would be practical to have in a game, but certainly a separate mechanic devoted to it would be interesting.

Alustar.exe
05-03-2017, 02:32 AM
Not sure if a continued combo as a result for the "meeting blade with blade" would be practical to have in a game, but certainly a separate mechanic devoted to it would be interesting.

Each class could have seperate follow ups for the occurrence maybe?
The reason I say this is for a simple fact, one that I love this game in spite of it, but the lack of a deep move pool leads really predicts move sets.
I think having a few more options for being able to pick apart an opponents playstyle would be nice.

kweassa1917
05-03-2017, 03:50 AM
Each class could have seperate follow ups for the occurrence maybe?
The reason I say this is for a simple fact, one that I love this game in spite of it, but the lack of a deep move pool leads really predicts move sets.
I think having a few more options for being able to pick apart an opponents playstyle would be nice.

It'd certainly add in the cool-factor, I'll tell you that. ;)